Homosexuality and Religion

Its the same choice that priests theoretically make.....

That a 16 year old knows himself well enough and can pass through the raging hormone years and actually live with that decision is another matter.

I would find it unlikely that a 16 yo. would come to such a confident point in the crisis of faith vs. sexuality. Of course, speaking from my own experience I pretty much rejected the faith I was raised in because of my sexuality issues, as part of learning to accept myself.

My current novel also includes a gay teen, and things aren't so cut-and-dried for him because he also has other issues to deal with and on top of that he meets someone. It's easy to say you're never going to do such-and-such, up until you meet a good reason for doing just that. And then comes the guilt.

That said, I did have an LDS friend who when I met her was a virgin and was committed to remaining chaste through the rest of her enlistment until she got married (she had no intention of even dating until she got out of the service). Commitment to remaining chaste for now and forever are two different things, though, and I, too, question whether a 16yo. is likely to make such a decision without guilt and doubt tugging him back and forth constantly.

Well, yeah, I was a little vague and didn't word my question quite the way I meant it...I mean, my character has just recently accepted the fact that he his gay after going through years of denial. Now that he has finally accepted this, he is kind of relieved that he can just be who he is. So now he's like, 'Ok, I'm gay, and I'm Catholic, (which there is nothing wrong with that) except if I am going to stay Catholic, I have to live celibately.' so he's all gung-ho, 'I can do this' which lasts...about three days. After that he's not so sure. So I know that it's not an easy decision, (I can't imagine how difficult it would be) but he has a supportive family and a female best friend to help him out, so I know he can do it. I just need a little help putting his struggle and confusion and frustration into words =) I hope I'm making at least a little sense, haha, it's the end of the week and it's late...

I honestly can't see anyone, especially a 16yo being comfortable with his sexuality if he's been raised as a Catholic. While Catholic guilt is a strong thing, unless he's realised his sexuality at a very young age and has been struggling with it at at 14 or so, then I doubt this idea is realistic.
The main reasons for this would be:
If he's from a very Catholic family (as in, practising, bible reading, church every Sunday type, not just a Christmas and Easter family that go because they feel obliged) then he would be taught from an early age that homosexuality is a sin.
He's also going to be taught that homosexuality is a choice, and something that can be cured, rather than something he can live with by being asexual.
So when he realises he's gay, he's going to think he is an evil sinful person and suffer from great amounts of internalised homophobia. (Ooh, and that stuff messes with your head. Took me years to get over it)

Most people in his situation do one of two things. They reject the church and all organised religion and live the 'homosexual lifestyle', maybe coming back to the church through a gay support group after many years of soul searching. Or they will reject their sexuality, and live the 'religious lifestyle' trying to ignore or deny their sexuality, join the priesthood, or maybe even get married to a member of the opposite sex.

Needless to say, he's not going to be well adjusted, especially at that age. Denying either part of him, religious or sexuality is going to make him feel like something is missing in his life, and you'll end up with a character in personal conflict.

As for me, I rejected organised religion, and realised that God (who I believe exists in some form, although maybe not the Christian idea) still loves me, even though many of his/her followers have used the Bible to support hate and fear. I have little tolerance for hypocrites who tell me how I should be spiritual. Spirituality is a personal thing, and how I choose to interpret it, works for me.

THAT makes more sense. I kinda started realizing I liked girls at 14, had a label for it at 15 but felt horridly guilty over it, and at 16 went to college and joined the campus GLBT group, which introduced me to older teens/adults who were more confident in themselves and I concluded that I was okay the way I was (at that time, I identified as lesbian, figuring out I was bi was a whole other process), so the religion that said I wasn't must be wrong. I was raised in a protestant jumble with various denominations influencing, including Baptist and Assembly of God (though we attended the relatively more liberal Presbyterian church when I was in high school). It was also that year I met people who actually weren't Christians and learned about different worldviews, etc. I was a self-proclaimed Pagan by the end of my junior year of high school (which I spent at college). It wasn't something that happened overnight, though. More like over a period of months.

I like girls and am Pagan also! I'm bi but lean heavily towards lesbianism.

Thanks for replying, and yeah, sorry, I just made my question a little more specific in my second post up there ^^

But I just thought I'd add that I have been raised Catholic and I have never been taught that being homosexual is a sin, or that it is a choice. Most Catholics, in reality, have no idea what it actually means to be Catholic, which leads to a very inaccurate view of the Church: as an institution which quotes passages of the Bible in people's faces and controls people with guilt and fear of hell. In actuality, the true Church teaches that there are people who are born homosexual and that they should be accepted and loved as no different from anyone else. However, the Church does not condone same-sex marriage (but it doesn't condemn anyone in a homosexual relationship to hell either). It says that they are called (not commanded / threatened) to live a celibate life and the Church recognizes that this is not easy and that choosing this is a burden, which others are supposed to help with.

I'm not trying to sound preachy or tell anyone what they should or should not be doing, I am just saying that the true Church does not condemn homosexuals and recognizes that there are people born that way. Sadly, the Church has been represented badly in our society and many people who claim to be Catholic, like I said before, don't really know what that means, which leads to all sorts of problems...

So when I say that he is comfortable in his sexuality, I mean that he and his family (well, most of it) understands that that is how he was born. Of course, they hope he will live in chastity and will help him as much as they can, but the decision is ultimately up to him and they will love him regardless.

You might want to check with the Pope on their stance on homosexuality.
I wrote that from the point of someone who was raised Roman Catholic, I went to church every Sunday, went to a Catholic school, and was told by my biology teacher that homosexuality is a perversion.
True, the Priest never condemned homosexuality from the pulpit, although nor did he say living in a same-sex relationship was okay. Heard the saying "Hate the Sin, not the Sinner". I have had that one thrown at me by so many Catholics saying that they love me, just not what I do, who I love, who I am.
Organised religion is a lot more than just the Bible, its message and the spiritual leader. It is also the followers, the people who live their life by that book, who interpret it and use it as a way to support their views. Whether or not you see them as 'true Catholics" they have the belief, they were baptised, they follow the teachings of the Bible, Jesus, and their church leaders, and they also can give religion, Christianity, and the Catholic church a bad name.
It is why I don't call myself Catholic. I was raised catholic, but I am not Catholic anymore.

Ok, before I say anything, I just want to clarify to make sure I'm reading what you wrote correctly, so I don't sound like a moron...So are you saying that the Pope has a different stance on homosexuality than what I said earlier? And then in your last paragraph, do you mean that the followers of a religion are the ones who give the Church a bad name? Sorry, I'm not sure what you're getting at on those two points...maybe I'm reading it wrong =)

I just had to pop in here and say that this is a really interesting discussion so far, and I'm curious to see where it leads.

Props to all involved.

I have a female friend who's Catholic and bi. From what I've seen, she seems perfectly comfortable with it. She told me that she was bi when we were about 16, I think. (Maybe 15? About that age, anyway.) Of course, I have more than one non-straight friend, which might have made it seem more acceptable or something.

Not really an expert here, but here it goes for the discussion's sake.

The view of the Vatican (including the Pope, and it is the official view of the Roman Catholic church) is that homosexuality is a sin and should be punished. The same as they do not approve of the use of condoms whilst having sex etc. etc.

I don't really believe in what the Bible tells us, but if there were to have been a Jesus, and he was as described in the Bible, then I would think the Church he had in mind would be accepting of homosexuality. As it was said, it is a sin for a man to lay beside a man (or woman beside a woman), but beyond that, it states nothing about being homosexual, or even being in a homosexual relationship. It merely disapproves of man-on-man sex. (Granted, it's not the most ideal of situations, but that's not the point atm :P) Jesus would not, I think, promote hatred and violence against people, gay or not.
The Vatican, however, being in a considerable position of power (and as we all know, people with power...well...doesn't always work out that well), has gotten it into their heads (nothing new either) that they can slowly but surely pervert the Bible, twisting it's meanings and giving wrong intepretations that lead to unbearable situations and hatred that is uncalled for. Let's face it, over 90% of all the disapproval of homosexuality is based on religion. And for regions like the USA and Europe, that's mostly Catholicism.

I think that the people who follow their own path of christianity, freed from the (dare I say bigoted) views and laws of the 'Church' (as an institution, that is, with the Pope and whatnot), are more true to Christianity than those that mindlessly follow the herd. Following another's words without considering the meaning much is not faith. It's almost like slavery or subjugation, and one could say it's willing, but there's also the fact that there would be all too many people claiming you'll go to hell if you don't follow the 'Church'. And let's face it, whether you want to follow the Pope or not, if you're a Christian and believe in Hell, it's not a place you'd want to go to. Something you'd avoid at any cost, I'd hope.

I personally congratulate those who choose to love instead of hate, who choose to live with their fellow people rather than against them. They, in my eyes, are the ones worthy of Heaven, should such a place exist. Those who mindlessly follow the Pope without considering the feelings of other people shouldn't be worthy of such a place.

And for regions like the USA and Europe, that's mostly Catholicism.

No. Christianity as a whole, yes, but not Catholicism. It's often not one of their main issues, either.

Also, on the whole choice deal and cause for homosexuality, Catholics are generally the only ones who are going to advocate celibacy as the best course. (Protestants are the ones who are big on the 'ex-gay' stuff.)

As for the actual topic, hah, I've known people who've made the choice to not have homosexual sex, but not specifically to never have sex at all. They're very paranoid about anything that could be considered 'lust' and worried about being close friends with anyone of the same sex. I can't imagine anyone being 'comfortable' in their sexuality while believing that it's wrong. I think the only way he could be anywhere near mentally healthy is if he thought of it more as a calling to celibacy, focusing on the no heterosexual sex part, than as a way to not sin.

Most Protestants (i.e., Christians who broke away from the Catholic church for various reasons) have about the same views of homosexuality, if not more vehement.

The whole "love the sinner and not the sin" thing from the pulpit somehow tends to result in the presumed sinner getting harassed and beaten up or disowned by his/her family all too often.

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Neither the Catholic Church, nor the Pope believes or teaches that homosexuals should be 'punished.' This is not the official position of the Catholic Church.

The official position, as taken from the Catechism of the Catholic Church is this:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms throughout the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on sacred Scripture, which present homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity [Gen. 19:1-29, Rom. 1:24-27, 1 Cor. 6:10, 1Tim. 1:10], tradition has always declared that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered [Persona Humana 8]. They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. They do not choose their homosexual condition; for most of them it is a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On first reading the original post, my view was that there is no such thing as a 'devout' Catholic completely at ease with his homosexuality. I still tend to agree with those who say it's unlikely a 16 year old boy would be that self-possessed, but if he truly understands what the Catholic Church teaches, and simply sees it as a temptation, just like all of us have temptations, and has decided to live chastely (as we are all supposed to be doing, anyway), then I can see this being a very good story.

I think simply looking at our own emotional and spiritual difficulties in any of our own temptations would give a good idea of what he would feel. We all fight our own inclinations and desires-- whether that's a married man attracted to another woman, a teenager who wants to strike back at someone spreading gossip, the desire for more than one can afford, a million other things, and I think there is a similarity to the experience, regardless of the individual temptations.

Have made such a decision, but being female and not especially subject to raging hormones, I suspect it would have been much easier than for your character. There isn't the same stigma against lesbians.

I was considerably older than sixteen before I was able to put a name to it - even when I 'came out' as a joke in college, to try and stop the boys from harassing me to go out with them, I didn't understand myself that it was true. I just thought of it as being 'normal' because I'd read classic novels where girls had close relationships with each other in the name of friendship. It concerned me far less than anyone else that I wasn't interested in boys.

I had a slightly embarassing thought recently as I remembered something a teacher had said, and for the first time realised - she knew. I might have been fifteen, didn't know myself that I was gay - but she obviously did. At that time I wasn't hiding anything. Now, yes, because although in theory my religion should accept me as long as I never 'practise' homosexuality, I know in practice there's a deep current of homophobia running through the people I associate with. I don't feel safe with the idea of 'coming out of the closet'.

What is comes down to is whether your character believes he can be content remaining celibate for the rest of his life (or marrying a woman he isn't attracted to). I'm certain that I can be more happy that way than through marrying, so it's not an issue. And I rather think that if I had made that decision in my teens, it would have been a relief rather than anything else - to know I wouldn't have to go through the whole rigmarole of wife-hood and child-bearing.

On chastity - asking the LDS nano-ers may well be your best option, as there's certain to be some that have been 16-yr old boys sworn to chastity for the fore-seeable future (till marriage).

Thanks for posting the Catechism passage on this...I meant to post it but never got around to it. It's nice to be able to find exactly what the official Church teaching is.

Like I said before, my first post didn't really say what I meant for it to. I tried to rephrase it a couple posts down. Reading all of these posts has given me a lot to think about. I am still trying to figure out who my character is. He's not as confident as I made him sound. He's hilarious though and I'm starting to really like him =)

Thanks regolith311 for your input! That was the sort of account I was hoping for =)

You're right about the "deep current of homophobia" in people who are taught to accept homosexuals. This is very unfortunate and (I keep changing my character's situation as I think of new things) my character, I decided, has not "come out" to anyone except for his immediate family and his best friend. And I don't think he feels the need to come out to the world.

Hmm, and I think the best friend, who is female, is going to slowly find herself liking him...even though he can't like her in that way...which of course will lead to more internal struggle and conflict =) Is this sounding like an overused plot?

Assuming he was really a believer and devout Catholic.. you could have him attend a prayer meeting (I'm not sure if Catholics have those?) and God could change him. (Maybe over a year or so.. in which time he would fall in love with his close female friend.. haha, sorry).

When I was 16, I faced a similar situation. The only way that I was able to feel comfortable in both my faith and my sexuality, I had to be chaste.

Honestly, the decision made me feel a sense of power. The biggest issue is finding someone with simialr beliefs for companionship. Without this, you are putting yourself in a situation of being alone. Also, by choosing this path, you are still connecting who you are with feelings of shame even if you aren't aware of it at the time. Finally, good luck explaining to people how you know that you are gay and having people accept your orientation.

Also, at 24 I have come to a completely different place.

jessica.nichole@gmail.com if you have any additional questions.

I have absolutely no idea how much help I'm going to be here, being female and straight, but I am Catholic, and from a family that considers itself to be reasonably devout (go to Mass every Sunday and on all holy days of obligation, pray as a family (especially in times of stress)... my mother went to Catholic school up until she went to college; we've all been confirmed....)).

Admittedly, we're on the liberal side, so take this in that consideration, but... I have never heard my parents condemn homosexuality or even homosexual relationships. They're of the opinion that it is not a sin, and that's the belief in which I was brought up. If your character comes like a family like mine, it's quite likely that he would be, as you say, "comfortable in his sexuality". The issue might be complicated if his parish's priest condemned it, or something like that, but, well.. the whole environment has to be taken into account.

Catholicism does not revolve around heterosexuality. It revolves around loving God and Christ. :-)

If you check www.gaychristian.net, there are plenty of people who've had this very struggle, and many who have chosen chastity. Being a gay Christian myself, the site has helped me a LOT on being at peace with both my faith and sexuality. It could give you some insight on what your character could go through.

Well, if he's a very devout Catholic, then he could have some problems while reading the whole bible. I don't know if anyone's said this yet, but in one of the first books of the bible it says that it is abhorrent for one man to lie with another. Which implies homosexuality. Not just the S word, y'know, but even having the feelings. I'm not trying to say "BAD, BAD HOMOSEXUALS!" even though I do believe that it's wrong. But, I do believe that they can turn their beliefs around. I think your character is probably making the right choice by choosing chastity, but if he's still feeling the feelings then it could cause problems with that particular scripture

I say what I say as a devout Lutheran.

I do definitely have homophobia. The thought of it honestly repulses and terrifies me. Right now my stomach is all clenched and my hands clammy, but I will try to go through with what I want to say.

(Personal anecdotes are clearly popular, here comes mine) Now I have always been taught that it is a bad thing, which I still wholeheartedly agree with. (NOTE: I do not want to offend people, I am saying my view!) This does not mean none of my friends make jokes about it. Or even that I never find one of those jokes funny. But it means that when I was 10 and I learned my sister was, (her reason for rebelling against the faith) I cried the rest of the day and have been hopelessly praying since. I still love my sister, but without the faith she is going to Hell.

LAW:
Mark 16:16 "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who had disbelieved shall be condemned."
Point: If you do not believe, you are condemned.

1 Timothy 1:9b-11 "for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted."
Point: Homosexuality is a sin.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God."
Points: Same as above.

(NOTE: Remember, as a Lutheran, I believe everybody is sinful. I need to be saved as much as everybody.)

With these in mind, I cannot see how anybody could justify or accept homosexuality in the faith any more than murdering or any other thing listed there. (Of course, so long as I'm pointing out a sin is a sin and it's all even (for further reading Matthew 20:1-16), I can mention that it's also the same level as lying or thinking poor thoughts. You don't get extra time for a "really bad" sin.)

Time for the
GOSPEL:
Back to 1 Timothy 1:8-11 "But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted."
Point: It's lawfully goodness for us, sinners!

Back to 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."
Point: We can be washed, we can be sanctified (made holy, which means near to God), we can be justified.

Shall I go on?

Jesus Himself tells us to pray for forgiveness, that He will grant it (Matthew 6:12).
As our model and the One who did what we could not and became sinless, He forgives us (Matthew 18:21-22).
Matthew 9:6.
Luke 23:34.
Ephesians 4:32.
Colossians 2:13.
1 John 1:9.
Nehemiah 9:17.
Psalm 130:4.
Matthew 26:28.
Luke 24:47.
Acts 10:43.
Ephesians 1:7.
Colossians 1:13-14.

I hope I am making myself abundantly clear. This is turning out to be a long post, but I am very strong in my point: Through the Law, one can't accept homosexuality as anything other than a Hell-bound sin. Through the Gospel, as Christ is everything we are not, one can go to Heaven.

(One more thing: Celibacy and chastity are different things. Celibacy means not marrying; chastity means abstaining, or abstaining oustide marriage.)

GrytaJME: just wanted to say that you expressed your beliefs with grace and clarity. well said, my friend, very well said. your scriptures were exceptionally applicable and excellently summarized. also, way to go for bringing in the hope of the gospel. it is indeed, as paul said in 1cor, "of first importance," and you kept it there in your post.

i applaud you.

oh, and for anyone who's wondering, i say this as a christian who has a attended a non-denominational church since birth and is now a member of aforementioned church. however, i can stand together with my brothers and sisters from other denominations on the unifying, saving rock of the gospel.

//thoughts//

the_irish_one

I have a gay friend who went through this. He was very religious, and knew he was attracted to men, and so decided to live a chaste life. He thought he could do so by joining a monastery, which isn't as easy to do as you'd think. They try to screen out such people. He got in, and for several years functioned as a good monk, but found himself unhappy. Finally he left, found a boyfriend, and now lives happily in Indiana where he works as a nurse.

Still Catholic; still devote--but with a twist.

When you come right down to it, many Catholics (and religious people in general) make adjustments between their religion and their actual personal beliefs. The vast majority of Catholics, for instance, use birth control.

I also know a pair of lesbian nuns who live together in a hermitage.

I also am a Christian, a product of the pietistic traditions (think Methodist, Evagelical, etc.)

The question that came to my mind as I read your post is this:

Does your stomach clench, and your hands turn clammy when your confronted by a liar (how painful the election season must be if that is so...)?

Would you feel the same visceral response if you learned that a friend, or family member had committed an act of theft? Or mixed gender sexual relations outside of marriage?

Does your blood run cold when you see our society pursuing so many idols with covetous abandon?

Coming out of the pietistic tradition, I believe we were created specifically to live our lives in a personal relationship with our creator. Many people see the law as a list of restrictions God imposed on his people to demonstrate his soveriegnty. I see it as the list of things we do that inflict great pain on our creator. Consider the seething cauldron of pain and despair the human race must be for our creator, then stand in awe at the incredible act of sacrifice, the awesome commitment it was to place his son in the middle of it.

Now for the hard part. I believe that we, as Christians, no matter what denominational flavor we prefer, are the living body of Christ in the world today, and that as such we are called to continue the work of Christ. Called, with his help, to rise above our fears, our phobias, to reach out in humble acts of love to reconcile a lost world to it's waiting creator. And to each other. We won't be able to reach everyone, I know that. Jesus knew it too. He came anyway.

I write - therefore I am, (and in some small sense, always will be).