How do you feel about outlines?

In the series of stories I'm writing at the moment, the first two were written as they come with no real outline. The first one had been buzzing around my head in some fashion for some years, so the finished article is more structured.

The second one tends to meander a bit all over the place - I tried to do the equivalent of an epic but with no real outline. I had a beginning and an end but needed to twist the middle around to make it work. As a result, it needs a lot of tightening up before I'll be fully happy with it. (I've asked someone to read it and they thought it was great - so what do I know?)

Now I try and work with some form of outline. My NaNo was the second part of a trilogy. The first part, the shortest, was written in A-B-C style in which I knew the ending and the journey before I even started - it's very unadventurous in narrative but quite fun as a short story. The second part has less going on and it took me a while to find the ending. I wrote it using Freemind, which was useful in keeping all key characters several steps ahead of the story and it made it easier to jump between characters without being forced into writing the story in a linear nature.

Freemind helps you organise the story without being restrictive. I have many "bubbles" on my NaNo's Freemind which I chose not to explore, so I put a red 'X' on them and just went down a different path.

I've just started the third part, and I'm hoping to bring together what I've learned so far. I have all key features of the story mapped out in my head, and I know what the ending will be. As a result, I'm writing all the steps/scenes as separate entities - whereas in the past I might have rushed to get to the "next good bit" and I'll probably use Freemind again as soon as the characters have started their particularly paths and before the story gets too complicated (I started last weekend for my first 9K+ words).

So I guess you could say I have an outline, after a fashion, but it's not a rigid outline. (Nowhere in my original ideas did I dream of putting dinosaurs in my NaNo, but they got in there anyway.) I also have lots of discarded notes detailing what the story would have been about before I changed my mind for the umpteenth time!

I like outlines, though I try to keep mine pretty flexibe. My NaNo 07 ended up with the second half of the story almost entirely outlined on notecards, one (large) card per scene, with notes about what was to happen in the scene. That was a handy way to carry the outline around, and I could always rearrange and add and take out on the fly as the story evolved.

I often use notecards for outlining, even if I end up putting the outline into another form later. They're just so easy to lay out and rearrange and see a high level view of the plot. Even if you don't have the whole plot, just getting the scenes and incidents you have onto cards helps you see where the gaps are and how you need to go from one important plot point to the next. I've pulled plots almost out of thin air using notecards. Holly Lisle's site has a workshop on notecarding that I found really helpful.

I've been reading up on Zette's phase outline method today, thinking it might be for me, but I just don't get it. It doesn't click with me. :-( Mind you, I had to read the Snowflake outlining method about three times before that clicked. I've tried that one a couple of times, done a few stages of it. But it never works totally for me. I've also got the "First Draft in Thirty Days" book, which, despite the name, is about creating a very detailed outline. That I've glanced at but not worked through yet. It seems like it might be a bit too detailed for me, I like a bit of wiggle room.

I often outline on the fly, in the sense that I start out with a basic idea of what will happen in a section of the story, but narrow it down later, as I get there, into exactly how it will happen. That especially applies to the second half of the story for me.

Outlining is pretty individual I think, both to the writer and the story. Different types of story need different types of outline. So I think it's a good idea to shop around and try out different methods.

I've done and won Nano four times, and write year-round. My first Nano was the only one I outlined, and that was by accident. I found it to be incrediably restrictive. I prefer writing by the seat of my pants, and my plots are still coherant. (It does help that I prefer writing in big chunks [like Nano], to get the story out at one time. It means I'm better keep the details in my head and not forget them because I'm working on other things.)

Part of my problem with outlines is that, in high school, I had to have one for every major paper. And my teachers always told us that outlines can't be changed. This was further pressed into my head because we had to turn in the outline before the paper was due, get approval, and then write the paper without changing anything. The one time I added another paragraph, my teacher asked me the source of the idea- and it was one I came up with on my own. Hence, when I got to college, and found I didn't have to use outlines, I rejoiced.

With writing, I often don't know the ending of the story when I start writing. My novels are character-driven, and they'll decide what happens, and when. I may know hints, but that's pretty much it. The farther I get into my novels, the more I know what's going on, but nothing's ever set until it gets onto the page. If I had to outline, I have the feeling my stories would be a lot more boring, and I wouldn't have nearly as much writing.

That said, I do plan just a little. Maps and floorplans are made before I start writing, just so I don't contradict myself. And I only make them if I have some idea of where things are located. If I don't, I make them while writing. Other than that, though, I don't plan.

I'm working on my third novel and found that I'm better at SOYPing it. My second novel [07 nano] was planned and I dropped it halfway through to write about assassins. Not that it wasn't a good plan, it's just that I've written enough to not need a plan.

It depends on what I'm writing. I've been writing a novel for a while before NaNoWriMo, and I have to outline each chapter, but I don't outline the whole story. I allow myself room to change. I can't stand having a rigid outline. Most of the time I'm wrong about what should happen when I plan ahead, so I stick to basically one idea and outline that. For my NaNo, I did not use an outline, but I followed an idea I've had for a while. It turned out better using the newer ideas in it than the old ones. So, I find outlines restrictive, but I do need one for small sections of stories.

For something as big as a novel, I like a loose outline. I don't typically go through every single scene and outline it (though I have once or twice, when I was very frustrated and needed a definite structure), but I figure out where I'm coming from, where I'm going, and what places I need to hit to get there. The subplots and the little details fill themselves in as I go.

It all depends on the person, in the end.

I love them--to a point.

My 2007 NaNo can roughly be separated into three sections. The first I outlined meticulously on, with 1000+ word outlines and character sketches and all that jazz. I had been planning it out since August. And, really, that helped a lot, but I didn't feel like I could have as much fun with it as I thought I could. (I also wrote it faster than I've ever written anything before, or since. I broke my personal record for the most words in one day, and the next day, broke it again.)

The second part, after that lovely outline ran out, was a disaster. I had no idea what was going to happen, I was introducing new characters left and right, and what little plot it had was staggering all over the place. It was awful, but somewhat fun to write, even though I realized it was a disaster.

The third section (since I decided to switch POVs, for no real reason) also had no outline. Although it was kind of random and plotless, the characters acted of their own accord and realistically, I had the most fun, and it's the part I'm rewriting now.

Did the outline stifle my creativity? Perhaps. I think outlines work, but only to a point; beyond that point, they're too much and can detract. :)

I love 'em, use 'em, and don't trust 'em for a second. They will chew your enthusiasm to shreds if you let them.

I've written outlines that are down to the most minute detail (I.E., "Bob says he thinks x. Sarah says that's stupid and she thinks x. Bob says...") and it killed my desire to write. I've also written much broader ones (I.E., "They argue.") So that while the basic structure and sequence of events is laid out, there's lots of wiggle room. That helps me more than anything else.

I think if I wrote without an outline, it would be worse than either of the above. I've tried it and not only am I incapable of keeping the details straight, but I simply can't write unless I know what is supposed to happen next. Nothing comes out.

I don't use outlines except I am going to makevery detailed outlines for Script Frenzy, and NaNo 2008, I'll probably end up straying from them a bit, but, that's okay...^^

After my first NaNo effort (done, as you say, by the seat of my pants) I will NEVER attempt a project of any meaningful size again without an outline. The more detailed, the better

I almost alwasy start a story without an outline. I'll just start writing until the conflict reveals itself. At that point, I usually have reached a stopping point. Then I step back and write out an outline that covers the plot only in the vaguest way. Basically, I write out the main plot points. Occasionally, I'll come up with a line or two of dialogue and put those into the outline. However, I've found that when I've written really detailed outlines, I lose all desire to write the story. I feel as if I've already written the story already.

For NaNo, my philosophy is a little different. It's such a strange experience for me to write 50K words in that short of a time period that I will take the month of October to write out a very detailed outline. That way, I know what I'm planning for November and I don't get blocked trying to figure out what to do next. That isn't to say I ever feel bound by what I've written in the outline. I've had things come up and take the story into a different direction. However, the outline helps me figure out where I want to end. That, for me, is a huge help. It's like have a map, as opposed to written out directions. With a map, you can take detours and still reach your destination. With written out directions... if you deviate from what's written, you can become lost.

I prefer using them up to a point, I try not to go into too much detail with them unless there's something specific. 2007's required a list of things to mention in each chapter, probably the most detailed one, but that was because the idea called for it. I've found that usually it helps to have an idea of how to end it as well, possibly the most important thing because when I haven't they've usually ended up not being very good

I'm a fan of outlines. Even in the first story I ever did seriously I didn't have an outline for, but I still knew what was going to happen next. An outline tells me what's going to happen, where things are going and how everything works together.

They also help me because I like to think I'm a high speed writer. I write a ton over a short time period (like say a day or a week) but I don't do real well over the long term. So if I'm going to churn out a good story in those sprints, i need to know what's going to happen. They're also kind of fun to write :) I get to see what the story looks like.

The only form of outline that I write is by writing the story by hand in my notebook and typing it up later, editing as I go. I have so many unused sequences in my notebooks that it's not even funny, I could probably publish an entire book of just deleted scenes!

Because in the story I'm doing now, originally, my MC was a teenager who hacked into the files accidentally. The whole 'run away and get taken in by rebels' thing didn't work. So now he's in his mid-twenties and was a computer programmer by trade, now a soldier. He was a POW that escaped and got taken in by the rebels.

See, if I had done an outline, I'd still be stuck on the first page!

My outlines are basically the main things that are going to happen in a chapter as far as I've planned it so far. That gives me the basic idea of what's going to happen, but it also leaves some room to maneuver. An example:

Chapter 1
The Browne family eats dinner
Aiden asks & receives permission to sleep over Hunter’s house
Julia reminds Aiden that he promised to help her bake cookies
Aiden leaves—walks to Hunter’s house

Now I know what's going to happen in Chapter 1, but I can still add stuff. ^__^

In a way you do a more detailed outline than I do. I just start with general plot points and work my way narrower, especially when it comes to how break ins and heists end up; those are really difficult to write. I like having the freedom :)

But for sanity's sake (because when i don't know how to get to the next part of the story I get very cranky) I think I've been going more and more to your rout whisper.

next november I may try to go outlinless just to see what it's like . . .

I'm a huge fan of Freemind now--since finding out about it from this very thread! Very useful for figuring out character motivations and the broadside-by-broadside tactics for the upcoming naval battle. Which has been upcoming for a very long time... (I take notes in class on Freemind too.)
I also have a day-by-day calendar for when my ship is leaving and arriving at various places, because my sense of time was getting very distorted--and to make sure they never set sail on a Friday. ;-) But it says nothing about what my characters were doing that day, or the weather apart from two plot-significant storms. I'm going to add in some historical events because that would be important to keep track of. Apart from that, I have character sketches and a research file, and that leaves a lot of things open. I have a rough idea of what *has to happen* in the end, but I don't know what else is going to happen.

When I first get a story idea, outlines are my friend. I use them not so much as a "blow-by-blow" account of what's going to happen, but a sketchy type of thing to find out if it's something that wants to be a novel or a short story. If it finishes up around 20, then I know it's a short I've got in mind. If it's 40 or more, then it's a novel. Between those two, and it's a novella...I hate when I come up with those ideas, but it's better to find out in the first stage then when it's all done.

On that note, I once outlined a story that had 100+ scenes, not quite long enough for two books, but way too long for one, so I set that one aside until I've got a few published ones under my belt and I can put out a hefty tome without being forced to split it.

I need outlines. Okay, that's a lie. But I really like them, because when I SOYP it, because of the fact that I like enormous casts and sweepingly enormous plots (which could be a fault in and of itself, really), if I don't get at least the basics down before I start, I end up with ludicrously awful plot holes, characters doing things that they really wouldn't normally do otherwise, and just general chaos. So I like to use them. But mine are fairly brief, as I do believe in the power of my imagination to carry the story off in new directions (and when it does, I typically let it go where it will,at least for a first draft).

Outlines are nothing more than roadmaps. They remind you where you want to go, but they don't tell you exactly what you are going to see or do along the way. Some people will map out the entire trip and others will only mark the 'must see (do)' areas. And like any trip, you run the risk of detours and interesting side-trips. With the outline/map you have a destination to get back to your main road and finish your trip where you want to be, not lost out in the wilds with no clue of how to reach a destination.

Even so, I don't always use outlines. Sometimes it's fun to leap into a story without a net. However, since I do often write for publication and I have contracts and deadlines, an outline is a must for those types of work.

I used to be quite happy just writing off the cuff, but lately I've found I need an outline if I'm to have a hope of finishing a story. My outlines essentially consist of the chapter number, whether the chapter is completed or not, the chapter's word count, its narrator (if it's a multiple-narrator story), the dates between which the chapter's events take place, and the events of that chapter. At the beginning of my outline I keep a character key, consisting of the first name of each character and its corresponding initial - I use the initials to refer to my characters during the events section for each chapter. For example...

Chapter 24
Completed: Yes
Word count: 3,930
Narrator: Ebony
Dates: November 10-11 2006
Events: S comes to see T for last time; E sings T to sleep; E prays for her brother; T dies, and E loses it; A+E call their mum to tell her the bad news

At the end of the outline I list the final word count and the date I completed the story in question.

I can definitely write without an outline, but if the story is particularly involved then I much prefer to have a framework to work from.

If you ever want to complete 50,000 words I suggest you write an outline for one A4 page per chapter.

I use mini outlines for my novels and short stories in the very beginning, like a sketch. Then, once the chapters are done, I go back and do a chapter breakdown to keep track of what has been written so far, make sure all the details are there in the right order. Then I leave both alone to polish the story up in order to finish. If I decide to move something from one chapter to another I will show that in the breakdown and if I want to add something to plump up a chapter, I can see where I can place it by using the breakdown. Sometimes I need a more detailed outline but most of the time they're just something to set me walking in the write direction.

Whatever floats your boat.......

well whenever i write short stories, i find outlines simply a waste of time. i can write the first draft rather quickly and then once i have all my ideas down i can go back and make it better, so the story is kind of its own outline. however, for novels, i find that outlines are useful, but mine are rather meager. i usually just have a bullet list of events throughout the book, and they are ever-changing as the story progresses.

the novel i am currently working on, however, is a little strange. the first time i wrote this, it was a 9000 word short story. when i was deciding on my novel for nano, i decided this story was good for a scifi/horror novel, so i took the story and beefed it up to make it a novel. in this instance, the STORY is actually the outline for my novel. yeah, its wierd, i know, but when you think about it, its a very good idea. think: the story is all there, it didnt take too long to write, there is proper description where necessary, and there is good character developement, something you simply cant get with an outline.

I wrote 500,000 in a month and none of my outines (I wrote 5 novels) exceeded 3 pages, I don't think.

They're useful, but not necessary.

----
2005: won!
2006: won!
2007: won!

http://kateness.wordpress.com

A short story as an outline for a novel? That's similar to a treatment for, say, a screenplay, only a bit longer...

Both my NaNo novels I wrote pretty much by the seat of my pants, jumping back and forth almost randomly between scenes early and late in the story. I did this even though I use index cards. The result: they're such complete messes that I'm still rewriting them. I vowed: no more writing without outlines, ever again!

Here's pretty much how I do it:

• First, I map out the crucial plot points: beginning, midpoint, end, Plot Points 1 and 2.
• Then I take out the index cards and write sequence by sequence.
• When I get to writing individual sequences, I use cards to map out the events, one card per action. I write from those.

It's definitely improved my writing. Even so, they I can still run into trouble, since despite two NaNoWriMo victories I'm still terribly inexperienced at writing novels.

My feelings towards outlines: They are necessary (for me anyway) but they must never be followed.

I tried one November to write a story without an outline. It is destined to be completely rewritten one day, similar only in that characters have the same names. I also wrote a story where I followed the outline to the letter. I never finished it, and it is destined to be completely trashed. Salvaging it will be difficult.

So, when outlining, I do it by chapter. Naturally, this can (and likely will) change. But I find it helps me figure out the scenes, put the story in order, figure out the flow, where the story begins and where it ends. I am usually very vague on certain points where I haven't figured out what will happen yet, but I know that something will happen. I can add that in later.

I don't like outlines because it makes me write certain parts without eagerness and wanting to get to the part I feel like writing. I also tend to have better ideas when I'm writing and not planning things beforehand. Sometimes my story can fall together in a way that's unexpected and exciting and that I really love. I know outlines aren't meant to be inflexible but I prefer to write whatever I feel like whenever I feel like it - it not only makes writing more enjoyable but the stuff that comes out is also more satisfying due to unpredictability and lack of preconceptions. The most I do is keep a rough list of ideas - plot points, settings, characters, scenes, imagery, objects, anything.

How do I feel? I wish I didn't need them as often as I do.

I usually need some sort of a guide. I definitely need to know the end. Sometimes, I need other high points. This past NaNo, I needed a full outline with a notecard for every scene, just to make sure that things would happen when they needed to, based on the POV characters (3 first person switching narrators, so it had to go in order, also).

It did make some parts really boring to write, not because the idea wasn't good, but because it wasn't as interesting as discovering something new.

What I prefer is to have a really limited outline, with just a few main points, and then add different "idea notes" to the end of the story as to things that I think would be neat to happen in the future.

If I don't have a strict structure (like the 2007 NaNo), it's really a pain to have a detailed outline, because the chapter/scene breaks never stay the same, and then I get frustrated about my chapter with 9 scenes next to the one with one really short scene. In fact, I've all but stopped actually making chapter breaks, figuring that it will all be a lot clearer when I'm revising/editing.

I've used outlines for both years of NaNo that I've done. They were pretty helpful, because really, all I had to do in November was flesh it out a bit. (Well, I mean, a lot. But you know.) They help me keep track of things that I want to happen, etc.