Inexperienced rider on horse and a deep wound? http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/41975 moomoo652 So, I'm new to this whole adventuring thing. Is it considered acceptable for a human girl (16) who has lived on a ship most of her life to be able to ride a horse? She had seen them ridden before. But I have Aruja and Enriq being chased through the streets of a city right now, and while he knows how to use a horse somewhat, he has been seriously injured and is slipping in and out of conscience. They are ridding bareback on a male horse. I already know her hips would be uncomfortable with it, and since she's trying to keep him on it as well it will be hard for other things. They're at a canter, and being chased on foot, some on horses. And another question: If someone gets a sword wound across his chest, about two feet long, and then is shot in the back with a bullet, would it make sense if he fainted within ten to twenty moments or so? And if she tied up the wound would it be okay for around 12 hours? So in all: A) How much can I get away with an inexperienced rider, and B) How long can someone survive with a deep cut and a bullet in the back? Thanks and Happy Writing! Wed, 23 Nov 2011 22:41:18 +0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/41975?page=1#forum_thread_comment_817458 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/41975?page=1#forum_thread_comment_817458 christybum firstly horses would be for the wealthy really dependant on era and bareback would be a nightmare for inexperienced rider as for bullets....most people dont realise that only about 5-10% of the body is fatal when shot...Heart, brain and possiblylungs IF as I suspect this is an older time period then it wouldnt be a bullet more likely a ball, and whilst nasty they lack the power and punch of a bullet, and rarely went deep enough to bleed out that quickly, unless point blank range same with the sword strike, its not the length that is a problem its more the depth, if you made it a glancing blow, and assumed clothing, leather etc then its feasible they would bleed and be in pain but able to carry on and patch up hope this helps Wed, 23 Nov 2011 23:52:53 +0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/41975?page=1#forum_thread_comment_817999 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/41975?page=1#forum_thread_comment_817999 Alveric Depends on the horse. A well-trained, older horse can be quite easy to ride. But picking up speed without a saddle, you're asking your character to do something almost miraculous. (Which you might want to do--but I'd say you should present it as something amazing, not casually mention it.) A sword injury--that depends on the precise nature of the wound. How much blood loss? How deep? You have a lot of plotting flexibility here. A bullet wound, however, sorry. Unless the bullet was very low-velocity (say, from a musket at distance), or unless there was something to cushion the bullet (like thick leather or armor), a bullet wound to the torso will knock you over and keep you down for days. Don't believe what you see in movies. A big glob of your character's internal organs would be mush. So if you want a bullet wound, you have to moderate it with some lucky break like armor. Alveric Yates Wed, 23 Nov 2011 23:58:36 +0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/41975?page=1#forum_thread_comment_818039 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/41975?page=1#forum_thread_comment_818039 christybum sorry but you are wrong Firstly musket/flintlock pistol are low velocity and also if its a modern gun 9mm pistols are sub sonic as well it would knock you down but not keep you down and a musket ball wouldnt even get close to the internal organs unless point blank and im an ex armourer who worked on guns and ballistics for over 10 years....so I kinda know this stuff! most people died from infection rather than the round itself Thu, 24 Nov 2011 00:24:36 +0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/41975?page=1#forum_thread_comment_818275 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/41975?page=1#forum_thread_comment_818275 moomoo652 So if someone gets hit by a bullet, they could stay alive for 12-48 hours then? For convenience sake, the character is knocked out, but so it should be fine? Thu, 24 Nov 2011 00:46:00 +0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/41975?page=1#forum_thread_comment_818475 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/41975?page=1#forum_thread_comment_818475 christybum ofc i mean without knowing how/where he was shot then its tricky to say for deffo, but a close friend of mine was shot in afghanistan 5 times, 3 in the torso, 1 in the arm and 1 in the thigh, and he survivedan hours bleeding before medical help IF its olden times and old weapons then you have to think most pistols were shaky at best if they would work or blow up in your hand, did they put the correct amount of powder in, was it damp and therefore weaker power, the barrels were unrifled so lack power and accuracy if he was shot anything over 12-15ft then again its highly unlikely he would die from the shot even modern pistols lose effective range anything over 25m....so imagine a flintlock! (im assuming your story is set in the 17-1800s) Thu, 24 Nov 2011 00:56:38 +0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/41975?page=1#forum_thread_comment_818587 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/41975?page=1#forum_thread_comment_818587 Alveric I stand corrected. Or rather, I topple over, get up again, and stand corrected. But I can feel that correction starting fester... Thu, 24 Nov 2011 03:30:28 +0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/41975?page=1#forum_thread_comment_820274 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/41975?page=1#forum_thread_comment_820274 Mokso The size, velocity and placement of the bullet matters a whole lot or in the case of a blade wound the placement of the wound. Stomach wounds are highly lethal in a few hours without medical attention. Sometimes if you're very lucky and it somehow manages to miss all vital organs and arteries, you can survive longer. A bullet that severs an artery anywhere in the body (most often neck or thigh) will make a person bleed out within a few minutes, often even with medical attention. If you're very, VERY lucky you can even survive a bullet wound to the head, but it requires that the bullet stops somewhere between the hemispheres or in the frontal lobe. And even then infection is a huge problem. Of course any damage to the frontal lobe will cause huge shifts in personality. But these are those cases where truth is stranger than fiction and a fiction author would rarely get away with writing a sword to the stomach for someone to survive. You can have a deep wound that bleeds, as long as he's not bleeding profusely, but more like a trickle from the start. Big injuries will cause you to go in and out of consciousness but if he's completely unconscious without any assistance to cause him to be that way, it's likely that he's almost dead. When he is conscious it's likely that he would not be much help except to maybe answer a couple of questions. The amount of endorfins in his body would cause him to be mostly unaware of his surroundings but able to follow simple commands. However he wouldn't be able to remain on a horse without assistance and probably not at all at speeds above a trot and likely not above walking speed without a saddle. In any case this would require an experienced horseman and something like a workhorse with a very wide back which wouldn't be very good for speed. Riding bareback on a horse it's pretty difficult to even get on even with help, depending on the size of the horse, even for a medium experienced rider. Horses have pretty slick coats and even saddles (which are contoured to fit the horse's back) can slip upside down if not fastened tight enough. The faster a horse is bred to be, the more likely it is that it is very narrow which makes staying on without a saddle more difficult (for me at least). Thu, 24 Nov 2011 19:30:19 +0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/41975?page=1#forum_thread_comment_828908 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/41975?page=1#forum_thread_comment_828908 christybum [quote=Mokso] The size, velocity and placement of the bullet matters a whole lot or in the case of a blade wound the placement of the wound. Stomach wounds are highly lethal in a few hours without medical attention. Sometimes if you're very lucky and it somehow manages to miss all vital organs and arteries, you can survive longer. A bullet that severs an artery anywhere in the body (most often neck or thigh) will make a person bleed out within a few minutes, often even with medical attention. If you're very, VERY lucky you can even survive a bullet wound to the head, but it requires that the bullet stops somewhere between the hemispheres or in the frontal lobe. And even then infection is a huge problem. Of course any damage to the frontal lobe will cause huge shifts in personality. But these are those cases where truth is stranger than fiction and a fiction author would rarely get away with writing a sword to the stomach for someone to survive. You can have a deep wound that bleeds, as long as he's not bleeding profusely, but more like a trickle from the start. Big injuries will cause you to go in and out of consciousness but if he's completely unconscious without any assistance to cause him to be that way, it's likely that he's almost dead. When he is conscious it's likely that he would not be much help except to maybe answer a couple of questions. The amount of endorfins in his body would cause him to be mostly unaware of his surroundings but able to follow simple commands. However he wouldn't be able to remain on a horse without assistance and probably not at all at speeds above a trot and likely not above walking speed without a saddle. In any case this would require an experienced horseman and something like a workhorse with a very wide back which wouldn't be very good for speed. Riding bareback on a horse it's pretty difficult to even get on even with help, depending on the size of the horse, even for a medium experienced rider. Horses have pretty slick coats and even saddles (which are contoured to fit the horse's back) can slip upside down if not fastened tight enough. The faster a horse is bred to be, the more likely it is that it is very narrow which makes staying on without a saddle more difficult (for me at least). [/quote] assuming we are talking musket/pistol ball here from black powder weapons then bizarrely enough the wounds didnt bleed profusely, it was when they removed the offending ball that they bled as they werent delicate and basically used to dig the rounds out causing huge problems. as you said he was shot in the back, its fine he would survive in all probability with a good infection thrown in but the riding bareback...out cold...seems very unlikely Thu, 24 Nov 2011 20:15:38 +0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/41975?page=1#forum_thread_comment_829075 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/41975?page=1#forum_thread_comment_829075 Mokso [quote=christybum] assuming we are talking musket/pistol ball here from black powder weapons then bizarrely enough the wounds didnt bleed profusely, it was when they removed the offending ball that they bled as they werent delicate and basically used to dig the rounds out causing huge problems.[/quote] It could also be that even dislodged near a main artery a musket ball could act as a blockage to stop the bad bleeding. If the shot does graze a main artery though, there's always a risk that the vein ruptures from the pure flow of blood, leading to profuse bleeding. But yeah, I agree with you. :) [quote=christybum] but the riding bareback...out cold...seems very unlikely [/quote] As I understand it there are two people, one of whom is the injured party and the other has never even seen a horse before. It's conceivable that the injured guy could be transported bareback, but the one helping him would definitely need to be an experienced horseman to be able to manage him even at a trot. And the horse can't be easily spooked, so an experienced steed then. I suppose it would work, if the injured guy were tied securely to the horse somehow. Much more likely to make a fast getaway using a light wagon of some sort. Fri, 25 Nov 2011 03:35:35 +0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/41975?page=1#forum_thread_comment_831986 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/41975?page=1#forum_thread_comment_831986 moomoo652 So you would suggest taking a cart instead of horse? They're on the run for their lives... I'll go reroute the market scene now. Thanks! Wed, 30 Nov 2011 01:00:53 +0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/41975?page=1#forum_thread_comment_887636 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/41975?page=1#forum_thread_comment_887636 Feral 2 people riding double bareback on a slippery stallion? lol, wound or not, they're sliding off as they come around the first corner unless that thing is wet, and they know how to grip without pissing it off. Someone inexperienced riding in the back has a good chance to grip in the flanks, causing the horse to buck. Most horses are trained to pressure - both legs squeezing means GO. It takes practice to learn to grip with the knees and keep your feet off them. the person in front has the benefit of being in the right spot, just behind the withers. The problem with that is, they're right behind the withers, and those can hurt. It's a big bony bone. The problem with the back of the horse is that it gets a lot more up and down bouncy action, even at a trot, and there's nothing to hold onto except for the rider in front. the problem in general on bareback is that horses have short, slick hair. A well groomed horse is quite slippery to fabric, but if the horse is wet, or if they are wet, they will stick a little better (horse show trick for bareback classes). But they'd still have a hell of a time getting anywhere on said horse. First, they'd have to mount this horse. Mounting a horse without a saddle is an adventure in and of itself. A well trained (and patient) horse, you can grab some mane and swing up like Tarzan. A not so well trained horse, and you're trying to get them to stand quietly next to a fence while you scramble up it and try to jump on before they side step. Or you've got someone giving you a leg up. Then an inexperienced horse person is going to have to get the second inexperienced horse person on, which means holding the horse still, and getting them to side up to something they can climb. Experienced horse people might know in such a situation to use their own foot as a stirrup for the other person to step up on, while they pull them up. If they aren't ready, this is a good way for both riders to end up in the mud, and horse to go gallivanting off without them. What do people do on a slippery, wriggling, tall horse? They grab with their legs, grab some mane, and hold the reins too tight. What does horse do? What it's been trained to do - keep going faster until the squeezing lets off. Turn in the little circles it thinks its riders want it to go in because the reins are uneven and too tight. If they have to turn any corners at a canter, they'll need to have their weight well accounted for to be able to go around the corner with the horse. Just sitting idly on top while the horse corners will result in the horse going around the corner, while the rider continues going straight - into the ground. That's if they can get the horse to turn at all, since they're using their body language they need to communicate just to hold on. Can't push with your legs left and right if they are wrapped tight around, and you can't pull to one side or another without letting the tension go on the other side, and it's doubtful they'd know to try neck-reining. Also need to determine your male horse. You've got a stallion or a gelding. Geldings are easier to handle, they're castrated, they don't really have goals in life that exceed eating and sleeping. Inexperienced people jumping onto a stallion and trying to ride valiantly away... are going to find themselves in the paddock while their getaway vehicle tries to find a date. Sun, 04 Dec 2011 06:52:20 +0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/41975?page=1#forum_thread_comment_929100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/41975?page=1#forum_thread_comment_929100 Francesca_Moody There are several factors that go into your question. It is most likely that your heroine wouldn't be able to get very far in a chase related scene. I say this mainly because of your character's inexperience with horses. Riding bareback requires a great deal of balance. Your heroine, depending on the horse, would be perfectly fine at the walk and maybe even the trot in a normal situation. However, since she is being chased she would probably want to go a little faster (I mean a lot) than the trot. She would have to a great deal of balance to keep herself on the horse at the canter or a gallop that I don't think many inexperienced riders have. She most likely would have to be the world's greatest 'natural rider' in order to do so. On top of this, you must also consider her injured friend. Toting along a second person can be hard for even the most experienced rider. Then you also need to add the extra weight into the equation. A horse has his limit on how much he can carry. If he has to much on his back then he won't want to go very fast. Granted, the fact that they were riding bareback would definitely help their weight situation. Finally, you must look at the type of horse they are riding. You mentioned that he was a male horse. A male horse can either be a gelding, a more docile horse and incapable of breeding, or a stallion. Stallions are typically more aggressive and have more spirit. There are several experienced horsepeople who don't want to even get close to a stallion. If it was a stallion your characters were riding then it would add yet another difficulty to their situation. On the flipside, every horse is different just like every person is different. I've been around some stallions that are just as docile as geldings. With this said, have you considered having your heroine hide rather than being chased. She could ride for help as soon as her pursuers had passed her and her friend. Even an inexperienced rider can hang on for dear life until he/she came to a person or town, although they would most likely be very frazzled. I've only read a few of the entries above so I'm not sure if this has already been said or not. I hope this helps you. Sat, 24 Dec 2011 11:35:50 +0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/41975?page=1#forum_thread_comment_997223 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/41975?page=1#forum_thread_comment_997223 moomoo652 So I was thinking it was sort of a packhorse- one of those big shaggy ones? Would that be fast enough to gallop/avoid a mob? It's pretty necessary to ride out because she's in a foreign city, and its just been realized that they are (more her friend) is a pirate. Her friend is doing most of the control (experienced rider), but then he gets shot and she as to take over. She can't really hide since she wouldn't no where, and they are being chased after by a mob. She'll need to be going pretty fast to avoid capture for around 20 minutes. Mon, 26 Dec 2011 07:30:36 +0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/41975?page=1#forum_thread_comment_1000329 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/41975?page=1#forum_thread_comment_1000329 Francesca_Moody Are you talking about a draft horse by chance? They are typically horses that pull carts and carriages as well as big and shaggy. Think the big brown Budweiser horses. If so, then you are probably looking at a very gentle horse that would be good for inexperienced riders. However, since they are meant and bred to pull carts behind them they don't go very fast. On the plus side, however, most of them are pretty smooth so your inexperienced heroine MIGHT, might being the operative word, have better luck maintaining her balance. Also, a horse like this wouldn't have any problem holding the weight of two riders as they are mostly used to pull things behind them. HOWEVER, I'm not sure if a draft horse could go as fast as you would need it to go during a chase situation. The horse would have to have a little more fire than your typical draft horse. Again they are pretty docile and laid back, you wouldn't want a nutjob horse pulling your cart. On the opposite side of the coin you should still remember that every horse is different and there could be a draft horse out there that could gain enough speed to get away from your angry mob with a bit of encouragement. Common draft horses include Clydesdales (Budweiser horses), shires, suffolks, percherons, and belgians. I highly recommend looking up these breeds to gain more information on them. You can probably also find videos of them moving on Youtube to help you get an idea of how fast they move and how they move. Here are some videos that I found that you may find helpful in gauging their speed. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7cOL2G8CU8&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0HSqLIJztM&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7zFhEJLkp8&feature=related Mon, 26 Dec 2011 10:17:12 +0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/41975?page=1#forum_thread_comment_1000553 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/41975?page=1#forum_thread_comment_1000553 moomoo652 Looking at the videos, I think that might be the best option. The first one shows them going relatively fast- and the mob is somewhat behind them. I'll work with this. Thanks so much! Thu, 29 Dec 2011 23:00:44 +0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/41975?page=1#forum_thread_comment_1008675 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/41975?page=1#forum_thread_comment_1008675 Mokso [quote=moomoo652] So you would suggest taking a cart instead of horse? They're on the run for their lives... I'll go reroute the market scene now. Thanks! [/quote] I was thinking something along the lines of a two-wheel calash (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barouche) or a cabriolet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabriolet_%28carriage%29). Something light and small, with enough room for two people that has a fancy, and best of all a fast, horse in front of it. Those things would've been only in use by rich people and that would add a nice little extra bit of conflict to the scene. :) Sorry it took so long for me to get back. Sun, 01 Jan 2012 23:39:26 +0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/41975?page=1#forum_thread_comment_1017752 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/41975?page=1#forum_thread_comment_1017752 Mokso [quote=Mokso] [quote=moomoo652] So you would suggest taking a cart instead of horse? They're on the run for their lives... I'll go reroute the market scene now. Thanks! [/quote] I was thinking something along the lines of a two-wheel calash (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barouche) or a cabriolet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabriolet_%28carriage%29). Something light and small, with enough room for two people that has a fancy, and best of all a fast, horse in front of it. Those things would've been only in use by rich people and that would add a nice little extra bit of conflict to the scene. :) Sorry it took so long for me to get back. [/quote] Oooh! An extra bit of conflict to add to the scene; if you're a a cart and make the horse go fast around tight corners, the shafts can creak ominiously. If you really want to throw them in boiling oil, you can even have the cart go over. On the other hand, hooded carts would provide a bit of cover from visibility and thereby relieve the tension a bit. Depending on what you need for the scene. :) Sun, 01 Jan 2012 23:46:45 +0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/41975?page=1#forum_thread_comment_1017754 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/41975?page=1#forum_thread_comment_1017754