The Mary Sue Test Thread http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804 mrfeek You've probably heard of the dread Mary Sue. If not, <a href="http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue" rel="nofollow">TV Tropes has a good rundown</a>. (WARNING: Link goes to TV Tropes. Don't click unless you have a day or so to waste.) The short description is that a Sue is a character too perfect and good and awesome to live, one who always is the toughest, smartest, sexiest, most caring, most beautiful, most talented person in the story. If not done carefully, your character stops being a character and starts being a big bundle of cliche. So how to check whether you're writing a Sue? I've always enjoyed the <a href="http://www.springhole.net/writing/marysue.htm" rel="nofollow">Universal Mary Sue Litmus Test</a> as a metric of character realism. I'm not personally opposed to Sue-like characters (many beloved characters, from James Kirk to Harry Potter, score high on the litmus test), but they have to be done carefully not to be off-putting. And the litmus test is a good check to see whether you're treading into unrealistic territory -- because in Adventure fiction, that's really easy to do. Anyhoo, what are your thoughts on Sues, and if you fill out the test, where do your MCs score? Sat, 15 Oct 2011 15:23:42 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_65861 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_65861 mrfeek I'll go first, and mine is weird. In my book, the plot is specifically meant to play off the absurd Sue-ness of my MC. She's an astrophysicist-doctor-heiress-adventurer named Penny Dredful. So unsurprisingly, my character scores a 119, which is off the charts -- double the "kill it dead" threshold.. Indeed, for me, the test helped me remember a few Sue characteristics I had missed when I was developing her. For instance, I'm giving Penny the gun her great-great-grandfather was given by the King of Siam, because, hey, why not. My MC's sidekick, Hercules T. Chiamouoü, only scores an 11, and most of that is because his last name is pronounced "sham-wow." Sat, 15 Oct 2011 15:34:58 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_65965 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_65965 themagicalnegro Mine scored 33…apparently, I'm pushing it, lol. Though I've never really received complaints when I've shown my work to my friends (who would rip me to shreds if they felt my character was corny, which is what I want them to do), so I guess I'm on the safe side of the line. Anywho…I think there's a difference between basing a character partially off of yourself and placing a new and improved version of yourself on the page. For my protagonist, I use parts of my personal background simply because it's what I know best. I would say my main character and I share similar backgrounds in some aspects, but I am definitely NOT my main character and vice versa. On top of that, I base most of my characters off of people I know simply because it's easier for me to write dialogue, personality traits, etc. with people I know well. Mary Sues, from my perspective, are the ones usually written by adolescents with no writing guidance and little experience, where they take themselves, give themselves green eyes and tiger blood, and have horrendously bad dialogue that sounds like interactions between high school students. Sat, 15 Oct 2011 15:49:07 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_66109 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_66109 Dennis Dunjinman My own personal Gary Stu has no magical powers and is of no strange race. In fact, he's a perfectly ordinary human. An ordinary human who happens to be slightly tall for his age, has long greasy hair, acne, a slight underbite and a gigantic foot size, yet is still fairly cute. And he is not the same gender as me, but he does resemble me vaguely... if you squint. However, he is still a Gary Stu to me. He is everything I ever wanted to be. He's creative and funny, has a fair bit of physical endurance (he's no superhuman, but he's a terrific athlete) and always has a smile on his face and is generally nice and likeable by everyone. I gave him the nickname "Ductape", due to his uncanny ability to keep things holding together in the worst of times (and the fact that he makes his clothes out of duct tape ever since having to walk home in a rain storm when his mother forgot to pick him up). Most Mary Sue tests wouldn't check for that kind of thing. So what if he doesn't have magical powers, a complicated bloodline, a bunch of weird colors (his eyes and hair are brown, but his shoes are lime-green; his feet are so large he has to custom-order them every time and that's his favorite color) or a resumé a mile long. And he doesn't speak in poser-dialogue. All he really is is just a guy who is really nice, likeable and can accomplish whatever he sets his mind to. Trouble is, he's a plot orphan and I don't have a specific tale to write him into anymore. So he's currently floating around from hypothetical to hypothetical while never actually reaching paper. Sat, 15 Oct 2011 16:26:10 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_66399 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_66399 Calliopes.Sin Mine scored a 2. I'm going to make this girl suffer and she's not going to perk up at the end. Oops. She could probably do with a bit more personality. I did run my race through the <a href="http://www.springhole.net/writing/marysuerace.htm" rel="nofollow">Mary Sue Race Test</a> and I came out of that with a 4. High mortality rates and severe disfiguration far outweighs the ridiculously good looking part. Sat, 15 Oct 2011 17:28:49 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_66910 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_66910 redram355 My character, Sean Devon, scored 21. That's actually a little higher than what I expected, but I think that's a little skewed. The reason he is so successful in life is because he's a sociopath who steps on people to get what he wants. Sean is rich, ambitious, charming, and very intelligent. He's also a terrible person. I have found that it's very liberating to write about a character who never has to stop and think about if something he's doing is morally right or not. Sat, 15 Oct 2011 17:31:36 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_66937 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_66937 The_Halla [quote]most of that is because his last name is pronounced "sham-wow."[/quote] It's been said before, but I'll say it again: the NaNo forums need a "like" button. Sat, 15 Oct 2011 18:32:19 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_67295 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_67295 The_Halla Ahem. Someone should run Cinderella through the Mary Sue test. (She seems to have done all right for herself nonetheless...) Sat, 15 Oct 2011 18:32:35 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_67297 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_67297 Zinnith My characters score between 3 and 28. It wasn't really a surprise that Quinn scored the highest. He's my favourite, and a character that's been floating around in my mind in one form or another for the past fifteen years. He retains some of the Gary Stu qualities I gave him when I was fourteen. I was more surprised that Fatma only scored three points since she can feel like a Mary Sue at times. She's a ninja-esque, stunningly beautiful woman who succeeds at everything she tries. Then again, she doesn't have the most pleasant personality and she has more than a few flaws. I should probably flesh her out a little more. Sat, 15 Oct 2011 20:25:22 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_67691 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_67691 SandyGunfox 14 for my NaNovel's MC, which actually surprises me a bit because "child soldier" types get, I feel, unfairly high markings from this test because they qualify for the unusual talents stuff and the troubled past stuff and etc. And then a remarkably low, in my opinion, 5 for my MC in an RP. Considering he's a child savant, I REALLY thought he'd get higher, but a lot of the de-suifiers qualified and brought his score down a good bit. I'm happy, because I tried to portray him more realistically than I've done in the past (i.e. he's completely naiive, likely to miss important things, a coward, physically weak, and has no usefulness in combat, because he's 10 years old and autistic and in a violent setting). Sat, 15 Oct 2011 22:41:15 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_68150 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_68150 Dudeinapinkshirt I scored a 13. My character is a psychic detective who can project his consciousness and intelligence into any organic structure, so I scored some points in the animal dept (he keeps a horde of beetles as pets to do surveillance with) and a few other areas. However, he's an overweight, 61 year old man with one bad eye and a pretty mild, polite personality, so he makes up for his animal horde by failing to be attractive or flamboyant. Hopefully it works out. Sun, 16 Oct 2011 02:25:22 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_69494 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_69494 ussauklet My MC got a 19 mostly because he's a philosophical nutcase. My FMC got a 21, but probably would have gotten a different score if there was some way to indicate that she's a rather murderous vigilante. I put my main sci-fi species through the Mary Sue Race Test. It got an 11, making it a "Mos Likely a Mary Sue Race", but there weren't any boxes to check off for them being nice-looking to a bystander but actually a ruthless, oppressive, race that works behind the scenes with assassinations and bombings to keep the other species on their planet conforming to their view of society. Sun, 16 Oct 2011 09:13:16 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_73887 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_73887 mrfeek One thing to remember is that this is just one metric, and that it's not meant to be the final word. As I noted above, there are many, many, many successful characters and classes that would score high on this test. The key is not to take the test as gospel, but to use it as a jumping-off point. Sun, 16 Oct 2011 09:42:08 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_74242 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_74242 Elfdragon12 They do make a disclaimer about that. Just because a character scores high on the test doesn't mean they can't be a good character. However, it's generally safe to assume that you're (I mean that generally and not you specifically) not one of the writers that can pull it off. Sun, 16 Oct 2011 10:26:26 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_74823 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_74823 Elfdragon12 Hahah, my FMC scored a 6 (only 10 if I unclick the De-Suifiers). One of the points of my story is for her to be a relatively normal human being thrust into an extreme situation and how she has to deal with it. On the other hand, the test did give me the idea to let her speak some Spanish (hardly fluent, but decent enough to get by if she had to) and that her roommate has her jog when she does. For my MMC (I did the Mary Sue Race Test and only got about 11. Ya know, since he's kind on the level of a god. If you can consider gods a race... It was a little pointless for him), he scored a 23. Almost four times as high as the FMC. Haha! I plan on having quite a bit of fun highlighting just how strange this guy is, so I'm not particularly worried about how much of a Gary-Stu he is. He has no sense of personal boundaries and is kind of a creeper. It'll be great. Sun, 16 Oct 2011 11:00:25 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_75176 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_75176 Chautona I think I stretched it to a five. However, when you consider that just about every successful piece of fiction I could think of would have scored very high, I wasn't too relieved. I wondered for a minute if I'm making my stuff too flat and then decided that I don't care. My people are who they are and for reasons. Sun, 16 Oct 2011 12:53:19 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_76324 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_76324 Laura E. Andrews I combined all my main characters (there's four of them) and ran them through the test at once. I got maybe a score of 4. COMBINED. That's pretty good, isn't it? :D Sun, 16 Oct 2011 15:06:53 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_77810 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_77810 Ivy.of.Midnight Yay! 8 points! I was worried at first (As the kid of The Chosen One my MC has 2 magical powers, a steep learning curve, and quite a few old enemies after his skin), but the de-suifiers were surprisingly simple. Thanks, that test actually brought up a few things about his character I'd never thought of before! Sun, 16 Oct 2011 16:23:19 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_78515 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_78515 celebel They really do. Sun, 16 Oct 2011 16:37:04 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_78635 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_78635 Urban Dragon No. Turns out she's too surly to be a Mary-Sue. I agree that the test does help in thinking about the character. Sun, 16 Oct 2011 17:27:21 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_78995 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_78995 The_Halla Well, just for the record: Exceptionally beautiful, virtuous young woman (with conveniently absent parents) is mercilessly put-upon by others jealous of her abundance qualities, but gets helped out by a magical servant and a random group of talking animals dedicated solely to helping her hook up with a rich, handsome hunk (by way of showering her with nice clothes and other material possessions). After gliding through a contrived set of complications, she gets her guy after passing a test designed to emphasize her physical perfection. But I digress. Sun, 16 Oct 2011 17:39:47 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_79080 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_79080 DudelRok Taking the entire story arch I have in mind into account, including the ending, 35. Taking the slow build, back and forth, as well as things I say "Eh... kinda, yes." to "Mostly No" then we're looking at a 22. The thing is that when I take all characters in consideration, they are specifically built around one another to elicit conflict and my main character is the center piece of all that so she has to vary. It's also an Adventure Parody kind of deal, which means I'm naturally going to push that line into Sue-ness. Sun, 16 Oct 2011 21:34:21 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_80160 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_80160 CyanGiraffe My MC got a 36. I don't think there were enough choice to allow me to say that, while he's a superhero and multi-racial and doesn't fit in, he's also awkwardly asexual and an idiot and a lot of people just ignore his actions. Still, I'm happy with a 36 for a novel laced with humor. Mon, 17 Oct 2011 11:40:31 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_88162 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_88162 Nakor I got a 3. But then, it is Bearded Lemming Pirates; it's hard to be that silly and still be a Mary Sue (unless perhaps you're trying to subvert it). Still, there were one or two amusing responses: <a href="http://i56.tinypic.com/2jd2l45.png" rel="nofollow">linky</a> Mon, 17 Oct 2011 14:21:36 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_90334 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_90334 Zinnith That sounds utterly awesome and I want to read it. Mon, 17 Oct 2011 17:43:55 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_92298 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_92298 MarcyT My main character Derick got a -5 (4 without the de-suifiers). All my characters get really low since I never visualize them enough to know if they're good looking or not and I think of them too much as friends to want to go out with them. Tue, 18 Oct 2011 00:21:21 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_94295 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_94295 CROWcatalyst -sees your icon- ..NONONONONO! -gets hit by a train- Tue, 18 Oct 2011 03:17:19 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_95910 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_95910 KathrineROID I wrote a blog post (I run a writer's blog called <a href="http://kathrineroid.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow">Scribbling on the Computer</a>) on this subject a week or two ago. I linked to several helpful tests, gave a run down of the different types of Sues, and offered some advice on how to fix your Mary Sues. I hope y'all find it helpful: <a href="http://kathrineroid.wordpress.com/2011/10/05/testing-a-character-for-mary-sue-ism-and-what-to-do-about-it/" rel="nofollow">Testing a Character for Mary-Sue-ism and What to Do About It</a> Tue, 18 Oct 2011 05:31:58 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_97391 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_97391 Mutnodjmet2013 My character scored a 4. She's a relatively pretty teenage girl who, while smart and sucessful, is an absolute witch when she doesn't get what she wants. She actually reminds me of Rachel Berry from Glee. Not that that's really good. Tue, 18 Oct 2011 09:42:44 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=2#forum_thread_comment_100894 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=2#forum_thread_comment_100894 Sebz Hmm, my MMC got an 11, and my FMC scored a 21... Perhaps my MC needs a bit of a pick me up personality wise ;) Tue, 18 Oct 2011 10:06:20 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=2#forum_thread_comment_101214 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=2#forum_thread_comment_101214 Entity_TK My MC for the book I'm writing this November was answered the whole series worth of traits; the things she learned or picked up beyond the years she lived before the series began. She scored in the mid 20's. It's fair, in my opinion, since she's the main and needs to keep interesting and growing through the books she does appear in. Tue, 18 Oct 2011 12:35:42 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=2#forum_thread_comment_103001 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=2#forum_thread_comment_103001 hamlet_ophelia_xoxo pretty sure mine's a -6... Tue, 18 Oct 2011 13:55:04 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=2#forum_thread_comment_104130 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=2#forum_thread_comment_104130 Go.Zeki I scored a 21, which is about what I expected. What a neat test, though. I'm going to go through it for all my MC's now! Wed, 19 Oct 2011 04:36:25 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=2#forum_thread_comment_110539 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=2#forum_thread_comment_110539 Raiynagh Oh well, I got the highest so far... 38 for my MMC. So he's ridiculously overpowered. Yeah, I knew that. Thankfully, the race he's fighting rate very high on the mary-sue test, so it's not all fun and games. Also the crippling psychological issues. (interestingly, none of my characters score below 15... I wonder what that means. At least MMC stands out less) Wed, 19 Oct 2011 06:00:43 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=2#forum_thread_comment_111514 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=2#forum_thread_comment_111514 MyDinoRawrs Gah the same thing happened to me. My MMC is an assassin... So using a weapon passed down to him, having a troubling past, and killing people is his job... Although I do have everything planned so it's a mighty twist at the end. I had a 19 on him. Also, your novel sound freaking awesome. Wed, 19 Oct 2011 12:31:25 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_117432 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_117432 TAMaxwell Somehow, both of my main characters actually ended up with 0s. O.o The desuifiers completely nullified both of their scores. I thought FMC was a -1, but going through for MMC I found a question I'd somehow missed for her that brought it up to a 0. MMC barely had anything checked at all (2 or 3). I hope he's not too dull, but I think the questions just didn't have anything to do with his history or personality. Thu, 20 Oct 2011 01:37:10 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=2#forum_thread_comment_124499 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=2#forum_thread_comment_124499 Red Lulu My FMC got a 3. I worry as well whether she's too flat, but it's just the fact that she's not volatile, high-tempered, beautiful woman who speaks her opinion all the time (not that any of those things are bad). She's quiet and pragmatic with a lot of determination. She is going to find the father of her unborn father of her child if she has to travel to the ends of the Earth to find him (it's an AU and she has many, many reasons). And my MMC got a 7, but I think that's because he's quite self-centred, thoughtless and takes advantage of people. But most of them inspire the plot! Thu, 20 Oct 2011 03:43:46 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=2#forum_thread_comment_126035 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=2#forum_thread_comment_126035 Mariana OConnor -9 I got a minus number... Does that mean my main character's really boring? Though the entire point of him is that he isn't a hero, or special, or particularly spectacular at anything. And he's not the good guy... or really the bad guy. He does run away from fights if he thinks that he'll die. He does do things that aren't morally right, because that's his job. I mean, it's difficult to make a henchman a Mary-Sue. Is he the anti-sue? Does that make him just as bad as a Sue? Thu, 20 Oct 2011 09:09:14 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=2#forum_thread_comment_131303 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=2#forum_thread_comment_131303 cjtremlett Wound up with a 20 at this point. I haven't fleshed the character out fully yet, so that could very well go up or down. I'm not very worried about my characters being Sues, but I still like taking the tests! Thu, 20 Oct 2011 09:30:36 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=2#forum_thread_comment_131617 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=2#forum_thread_comment_131617 Vrihet When you say fleshed out, it reminds me of Frankenstein's Monster &gt;.&lt; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 12:47:23 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=2#forum_thread_comment_134369 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=2#forum_thread_comment_134369 soniclaugh Tyler is so a Gary Stu. ;) Thu, 20 Oct 2011 16:13:12 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_137239 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_137239 soniclaugh Mine's a -6...How did this happen? Thu, 20 Oct 2011 16:13:40 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=2#forum_thread_comment_137246 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=2#forum_thread_comment_137246 Nakor Nope, not bad at all. Sometimes genre can even take you away from the Sue a lot. Keep in mind also that the test is hardly perfect anyway. Fri, 21 Oct 2011 01:33:39 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=2#forum_thread_comment_140756 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=2#forum_thread_comment_140756 AveryLinden I got a -2. Not even sure how that is possible, especially considering how worried I was about her being a Sue! My story is basically a combination and re-telling of some Grimm Fairy Tales, revolving around a young girl who sets out to become the first true heroine. She wants to prove that she's better than her namesake, Red, and that she DEFINITELY doesn't need a man to help her slay the dragon. However, noble she is not -- if she doesn't think you're worth her time, or the ploy to give her instant fame, she'll leave you be -- and that's typically when the fairy tales begin to happen. Fri, 21 Oct 2011 03:16:42 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=2#forum_thread_comment_141890 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=2#forum_thread_comment_141890 Mrs.Link My beautiful, highly opinionated princess got a 10 That's only because she's in disguise at the moment and everyone thinks she's ugly. And that her opinions stink. XD I was actually expecting her to get a much, much higher score though. I almost expected her to cross into sue territory. I'm sort of sad, sort of happy right now. :P I wanted her to be somewhat stereotypical (she's getting better as the story goes on) but still original, but I guess she's a bit...boring? :P Fri, 21 Oct 2011 04:29:54 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=2#forum_thread_comment_142781 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=2#forum_thread_comment_142781 collide Found this kind of difficult, given that my characters are all real people, one of them being myself. We all scored below 15. o_o Fri, 21 Oct 2011 06:02:16 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=2#forum_thread_comment_144100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=2#forum_thread_comment_144100 TAMaxwell Congratulations, you're not a Mary Sue. :P Fri, 21 Oct 2011 06:17:00 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=2#forum_thread_comment_144346 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=2#forum_thread_comment_144346 animenut2020 My MC got a -1 so I may need to spice him up a little. Conversely one of my supporting characters got a 46, but I saw that coming. He's kind of meant to be the Superman of my hero universe so I'm surprised he didn't score higher. Fri, 21 Oct 2011 18:58:30 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=2#forum_thread_comment_153731 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=2#forum_thread_comment_153731 Chillibean My MC turned antag turned MC got a 13, which I was really, really surprised about. If anyone in my novel is close to a sue, it's him. I mean hello, he's handsome, persuasive and skilled with words, he marries the princess, he eventually becomes king. Although the other side is that everything he does is an act, he's a Liar and an assassin, he kills people who don't agree with him, he killed the King and blamed it on someone else, he loses it after the princess/queen dies. So I guess... Nope, still don't understand why it's so low. It's great though. My MMC got 11. That's nice. :) Fri, 21 Oct 2011 20:01:12 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=2#forum_thread_comment_154046 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=2#forum_thread_comment_154046 KathrynMorne My FMC scored 21. That's pretty good, considering she's a damn good-looking rebellious pirate captain. Fri, 21 Oct 2011 21:51:40 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=2#forum_thread_comment_154526 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=2#forum_thread_comment_154526 Durandal 15 on the FMC. I'm pretty sure if I ran characters from previous NaNo years I'd do a lot worse... I think I got helped out quite a bit by the fact that I'm writing fanfic set half a century after the canon, and the two canon characters I'm making the most use of are kept in their own story thread until the final act (And they're now age seventy-ish in a setting where power levels peak before age twenty) . Maybe there needs to be a test for a kind of backwards Mary Sue: characters who exist to suffer for no good reason other than the author being a sadistic so-and-so? I can remember writing more than a few of those in the past, and it employs most of the same terrible writing techniques as the Sue, but just approached from the opposite angle : D Fri, 21 Oct 2011 23:14:48 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=2#forum_thread_comment_154873 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=2#forum_thread_comment_154873 ObiKimono I ran this test a while ago, but I'm pretty sure Trig got a 16 and Moore got an 18. That's healthy enough for me. :D Sues--I guess it all depends on the way it's done. What the test says about the various traits it targets (for lack of a better word) being "symptoms" but not the disease itself is correct. I've seen some horrible Sues who score low on the test--it's all in the way the writer portrays them. I'm sure there are characters who score high and aren't Sues. And there are some characters who are awful Sues but are bearable anyway. (Which of course varies when you ask different people.) Overall, this test is the best one I've found and is a good indicator of which way you're leaning, but in the end it's not infallible. Fri, 21 Oct 2011 23:19:40 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=2#forum_thread_comment_154891 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=2#forum_thread_comment_154891 Ashton_Lee My queen Niarmelyn got 6. Sat, 22 Oct 2011 01:01:04 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=2#forum_thread_comment_155604 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=2#forum_thread_comment_155604 sandraregina My MC for the novel was an 11 (hey, she's a General). I put my RPG character though the test and got a -10. Sat, 22 Oct 2011 07:34:51 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=2#forum_thread_comment_160088 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=2#forum_thread_comment_160088 arrowsforpens My guy got a -3. Not a lot has happened in his life so far, and he spends a lot of time trying to keep his head down... Of course, I can't let that go on working for him &gt;:D Sun, 23 Oct 2011 02:53:51 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=3#forum_thread_comment_170116 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=3#forum_thread_comment_170116 whatsDoneIsDone I'm not worried about my MC. He's a young police officer straight off the training who's still sort of awkward and propense to panic. Not to mention shy and somewhat nerdy, which is odd on the detective of a mystery. No, I was worried about my antag: a dashing, skilled and intelligent main figure of a mexican cartel who has been in the bussiness (and exceptionally good at it) before legally being able to drive. He scored a 29, which I was honestly relieved to learn. I expected him to be rounding the fifties, he's so awesome. It saved him to be especially ruthless and comepletely unredempatble- no pasable motives at all except greed and selfishness. Also, he would be drop-dead gorgeus... if his face wasn't so scared and blemished from all the harsh rounds on the street and the border. A 29 is ok by me. After all, the way I'm planning my novel, any reader mildly sympathetic to my MCs will want to rip his head off by chapter 10. Sun, 23 Oct 2011 05:50:31 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=3#forum_thread_comment_172168 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=3#forum_thread_comment_172168 Captain_Emily ... I NEED this book in my life. It sounds amazing. And hilarious. (Amazious? Hilazing?) It's an awesome concept and I wish you luck with it. Also, I find it highly amusing that you added traits from the Mary Sue test. Bravo! Mon, 24 Oct 2011 04:55:05 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_184671 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_184671 Captain_Emily My FMC got a 7. Not a Mary Sue, but I'm not sure I'm happy with that number. It seems like a superhero should score a little higher. Mon, 24 Oct 2011 05:10:26 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=3#forum_thread_comment_184855 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=3#forum_thread_comment_184855 YvonneJocks Good points. I got around a 30 (numbers don't stick in my head long), but I also found myself thinking "these are the qualities of characters I like to read about!" (eg. Harry Potter) about the Yes, Mary Sue traits, and the "I don't think I'd want to spend a lot of time with this character" for the De-Sueification qualities, so I'm probably in a good place for myself :-) Mon, 24 Oct 2011 08:55:54 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_187758 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_187758 AnimePirateGal I've taken this test before, and I got the same score as last time. A 15, which says that my character could use some spicing up (and it wouldn't make her annoying) but I think that I like her just the way she is. Thankfully every time my characters wander into Sue territory, they end up getting blown up and knocked right back down to the "safe" levels. A really bad metaphor, considering my story is about a war, but oh well! Mon, 24 Oct 2011 14:00:18 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=3#forum_thread_comment_192180 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=3#forum_thread_comment_192180 swenson Woohoo, my grumpy old lady doctor got a 12! A lot of that might have to do with the fact that she isn't from a fantasy universe (which the Litmus Test is really geared for) and because she's, well, old and grumpy. I'm very excited to write an old, grumpy character, though. I think it'll be a lot more interesting than the young, nice characters I've written the last few years. Tue, 25 Oct 2011 02:38:51 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=3#forum_thread_comment_198188 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=3#forum_thread_comment_198188 Benevolence Whoa! I'm an adolescent! That is truly insulting! Unfortunately, I got a 78 on my MC's test. It's okay, I suppose. I heard about Mary Sues around...two? Three years ago? And every time I create a character, I'm like, "Okay. This guy's life has to either suck or be fine." I'm scared of creating a Mary Sue. I feel like then my entire plots would be so obvious: Xir goes and fights and destroys legions of giants single-handedly, and survives (because xir is awesome like that). Then Xir goes off and marries Scarlett Johannson (pardon me if that is incorrect; I never bothered to learn to spell celebrity names), and suffers a tragic death at the age of 37 and serves as a great martyr for the side of good and love and happiness and rainbows and unicorns, where all is well. Tue, 25 Oct 2011 12:46:22 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_207511 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_207511 Feathers 18 for my MC, though it's hard to check things off when I haven't really developed her character beyond some initial concepts. Her brother would probably score much much higher. He's a sky pirate so he's intentionally flamboyant. Maybe I'll run through the list again later with him. Tue, 25 Oct 2011 12:59:05 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=3#forum_thread_comment_207747 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=3#forum_thread_comment_207747 Benevolence At first I got a 78, so I did a loooot of polishing and got a 23. Personally, I loved some of the questions. I wish more people would make vampire novels with all those De-Suifiers listed. I thought it was funny reading: 50+ Kill it dead. Tue, 25 Oct 2011 13:00:40 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=3#forum_thread_comment_207768 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=3#forum_thread_comment_207768 Hadiyah Jacqueline My NaNoWriMo novel MC got a 29. 22-29 Some definite Sue-like tendancies here. A little polishing might be in order to put original fiction and RPG characters back into the balance, especially if Kirking is involved. Fanfiction characters should probably have some work done. "Kirking"? Hahaha.... my main character can't even get a guy to really look at her. She's too withdrawn and lonely. And she's got way more important things to concern her time with than boys. As in a world war. Tue, 25 Oct 2011 20:28:19 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=3#forum_thread_comment_212338 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=3#forum_thread_comment_212338 Arianna Erlaine ...Wow. I've used the Univeral Litmus Test a lot in the past, on almost all my main characters, and they usually score medium to high, or at least in the positives. I always struggled and debated, too, over whether a question "counted" or not, and I'd sit for an hour per character forcing them to get a better score by changing the story. Almost always, I'd convince myself at the end that the character /had/ to be that way, because a) I wasn't comfortable gutting the character, b) it was a plot point, and/or c) I not only wouldn't want to read it if I changed the character, I also wouldn't want to write it. But I hadn't taken NaNo'11's character through the test yet. She scored a -14 without even trying. Her Sue-items are that she is of the nobility and that she's wearing a cursed bracelet throughout the story, and the cursed bracelet is literally the plot item of the story. I didn't /care/ about this story or this character; I made it up specifically for NaNo, since this is my first time here, and it's only distantly related to my other, older stories and characters. If I screw it up beyond the point of redemption, I don't /mind/ deleting it all forever. With the other novels, I care. I mind. Those ones are /mine/. Obviously, given that my most beloved character scores around a 102 no matter what I do, that care has led to too much self-insertion, wish-fulfillment, and general cliche... If I can have an interesting story about a -14, the 102 has no excuse for /being/ a 102, and I've got a lot of character gutting to do. Wed, 26 Oct 2011 05:42:35 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=3#forum_thread_comment_217984 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=3#forum_thread_comment_217984 paintedlillies Hmmm, I scored a 44. Might have to change my character a little bit. I thorght she was alright... Fri, 28 Oct 2011 10:42:54 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=3#forum_thread_comment_254610 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=3#forum_thread_comment_254610 psychicninja I tend to see this test as a way to pick and chose and think critically about your characters, more than deciding if you should 'kill it with fire'. Characters can be developed and re-hashed. I know I've had characters in the past who would have benefited from me taking this test -- just for the fact that it would them make me SEE the different things I was doing with them. Besides, I've had characters who score up in the thirties who have Sue-ish tendencies, but who I don't consider sues in the least. (And boy, have I ever written sues, before!) That said, this year? My MMC? -6. (Quite on purpose, too! He's sort of the antithesis of heroic or admirable. That's the point. =D) Sat, 29 Oct 2011 07:01:09 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=3#forum_thread_comment_267933 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=3#forum_thread_comment_267933 Eruravenne I don't like the whole "Mary-Sue" thing... It can make a writer downright paranoid. As long as your character has both positive and negative attributes and they are written well, it really doesn't matter if they have purple eyes or can talk to dragons or have a magical pet fox or know seven different styles of martial arts at sixteen. Or even all of the above. Sun, 30 Oct 2011 14:17:32 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=3#forum_thread_comment_289983 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=3#forum_thread_comment_289983 Eruravenne Actually, I should elaborate a little. I do believe "Mary Sues" exist. Especially in fan-fiction. However, I think it's a little silly to worry so much about whether you're creating one. In fact, if you ARE worried about it, you're probably fine. That's my opinion, anyway. Sun, 30 Oct 2011 14:45:37 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=3#forum_thread_comment_290429 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=3#forum_thread_comment_290429 soniclaugh I disagree with you on a couple points. Mary Sues are the cause of boring reading. They can destroy an otherwise interesting story. It's good for a writer to be somewhat paranoid. If they are willing to accept criticism and to improve their story, it will improve. And, this is just my opinion, if you ask if your character is a Mary Sue, they probably are. If it's something you're worried about you should look at your character and evaluate whether or not that character is stagnant, over-powered, or a wish-fullfiller. And about negative and positive attributes, that doesn't mean that your character is absolutely perfect in all ways but she has a temper. Or, she's just a bit clumsy. A well developed character should have more than just negative and positive. The should grow. That's just my opinion. Sun, 30 Oct 2011 17:15:56 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=3#forum_thread_comment_292486 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=3#forum_thread_comment_292486 soniclaugh *They Sun, 30 Oct 2011 17:16:13 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=3#forum_thread_comment_292489 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=3#forum_thread_comment_292489 soniclaugh Alright, on the writing forum on Reddit.com, a user named JerkJenkins said it fantastically : Here's the thing about Mary Sue. A long-held trait of good stories, going all the way back to Classical antiquity, is change. A good story ebbs and flows; the scenes change, locations change, cast of characters may change, and the plot advances from the starting point to the finish point. Characters function the same exact way. A character is almost like a mini plot in itself, advancing from point A to point Z throughout the story, hitting all the minor milestones along the way. Ideally, they change somehow. Consider the Mary Sue, a character who is generally perfect in every respect. They don't NEED to change. Any want of theirs to change is generally perceived as ingenuous or is so unnecessary that it makes for a dull story. Everybody (except the obligatory villain) likes them, they are a jack of all trades and laggard at none, and any skill they do not have can be mastered quickly and with very little effort. They are very, very stagnant. Let's give an applied example. Mary Sues are prevalent in fantasy and science fiction, so I'll use a fantasy example. Emmond is a young man who was conscripted as a soldier to serve his lord on a long campaign. He was previously a farmer and has had some basic combat training, but not much at all. Yea verily, most of the experienced soldiers he's with can give him a Ye Olde ass kicking without too much effort. Now, in his second battle he is injured pretty badly. His left hand is lopped off, and one of his legs is severely injured. While in an illness-induced fever during his recovery, he starts to make strange things happen. He can make small items burst into flame, disappear, or exchange places with other items. He has awoken magical abilities in himself. But, he can barely control his powers. They are erratic, yet dangerous. Emmond knows that if anybody finds out about his abilities that they will force him to fight with the wizards in the war, when Emmond just wants to get the hell out of there and travel back home. So, he is granted leave by his lord because he can't fight effectively with a permanantly damaged leg and no left hand. He begins the long journey back home. How will he make it? He is poor and is a cripple. Will someone realize he has powers, catch him, and send him back to the war? He is an erstwhile happy farmer who was cursed with crippling injuries and magical powers he never wanted and never asked for, turning him into a bitter man. Will he learn how to become happy again? Now, let's introduce the alternate version of that character. Kylie is a 13 year old girl who has always wanted to be a soldier. Inexplicably, her lord allows her to travel with his army as a squire and fight (even though the world is a close analogue of Medieval Europe--sexist and limited by social class). She wants to become a better fighter and to make her lord proud. During her first battle, she proves herself to be a potent soldier. This 13 year old girl with no prior combat experience can fight on a level equal to many soldiers. Her comrades all respect her and admire her, as does her lord. Even her enemies learn to respect her. During her second battle, she kills 14 men and is knocked unconscious for a few minutes by a heavy sword blow to her helmet. When she wakes up, she discovers that she has magical powers and can unleash gales of fire and make swaths of enemies disappear into thin air merely by blinking her eyes. There is nobody who can truly stand up to her. Now, let's say she is disenchanted by war and wants to go home. She leaves and travels half way back home before her lord catches up to her and begs for her return. So, she returns and ends up plowing through every enemy army she encounters, wins the hearts and minds of everyone she meets, and defeats the Big Bad Boss Guy. Most people of adult age will agree that Emmond is more realistic and more engaging. This is because his character changes drastically from a healthy, happy and enthusiastic young soldier to a bitter, caustic cripple who hates his new-found magical abilities. And, at the end of the story, he will change again to become at least somewhat happy and generally having learned to live with his injuries and magical abilities. Kylie, however, begins as a young girl who logically shouldn't have even gotten into the situation she was in and who--against all odds and precedents--turns overnight into the best warrior ever and a ridiculously powerful wizard. Everyone loves her; she has no true enemies who actually resent her. There is no conflict because Kylie will always win by leaps and bounds. Her character is largely stagnant. Sure, we've made her into an elite fighter and master wizard. But, this came with no effort and no cost. Sun, 30 Oct 2011 17:22:30 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=3#forum_thread_comment_292543 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=3#forum_thread_comment_292543 austere avenue My female lead got a -6. I wonder how she'd react to that. Tue, 01 Nov 2011 20:05:09 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=3#forum_thread_comment_346580 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=3#forum_thread_comment_346580 firelight_cinderbrick My half-MC got a 7. I call her half-MC cause the MC status is shared with two people. Tue, 01 Nov 2011 20:57:57 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=3#forum_thread_comment_347346 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=3#forum_thread_comment_347346 Spidereye My nano's MC, Jackson, scored an 11... though I thought it would be higher since he is a legitimately attractive rich guy who has his talents etc etc I think it's because I poke fun at him a lot and he is too impulsive to be effective at... most things... plan, Jackson, learn to plan. Wed, 02 Nov 2011 00:32:41 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=3#forum_thread_comment_351283 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=3#forum_thread_comment_351283 GlassWolf Can anyone tell me what a negative score means? I did the test on two characters. The first guy got 2. The other got -19. But there's no explanation for what that means. The scoring results only range from 0 to 71+ So what's -19? Is a -19 just a very uncool person? Mon, 21 Nov 2011 20:11:15 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=3#forum_thread_comment_790033 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=3#forum_thread_comment_790033 Nikk_E Both of my main leads got 12's, but the misuse of Mary-sues bother me. Taken from another thread I posted in: A sue changes the world around them breaking their own canons and warping the universe around them. A character however must adapt to the world and change to exist in it. For instance if you have a naturally bratty character who everybody finds endearing and her personality flaw causes no harm and does not hinder their journey, you might have a sue. But take that same character, and have the other supporting characters around her treat her like a brat, have her get into trouble, cause pains in her relationships and maybe make her fall to a point where she eventually has to learn to get along with others to do...whatever your plot entails, you probably don't. Sue's take control of their universe and warp it around their wishes, but if the universe reacts how it should to that said person, (like treating them like a child, not letting them get their way) it doesn't fit the definition. It gives the character a reason to change and grow because like everybody else, they're not perfect. And some people may not like the author's choice personality, but it doesn't automatically make a sue. So what do I mean? People adapt to their surroundings/people/etc., not the other way around. I feel that even if your character is kick-ass, beautiful, etc, if it's still initially a person with weaknesses/flaws (and real ones with consequences) and the universe acts as so, then I don't think there's much to worry about. I think people concern themselves too much with making such original character they forget to write PEOPLE. Having a character that no one can relate to can be just as damaging as having a sue. Mon, 21 Nov 2011 22:04:20 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=3#forum_thread_comment_790467 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=3#forum_thread_comment_790467 Nemo_Nunca I scored a 17 though I think it should be a bit higher. He is Merlin after all. He has real faults though, so I think that balances it out. I'm not brave enough to put Arthur through yet. I haven't fleshed him out nearly enough to wear some of that pretty boy shine off of him. Tue, 22 Nov 2011 15:36:17 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=3#forum_thread_comment_800381 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=3#forum_thread_comment_800381 Kiddie-Icarus Well... I took the test and my main character got a fourteen and I'm an "adolescent" with no writing guidance other than the direction my imagination is taking me. XD There are some adults as well as adolescents who can write some horrendous Mary Sue's, but we're all learning, aren't we? :) Thu, 24 Nov 2011 07:59:24 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_821403 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_821403 Ramzuiv My MC got a perfect 50, and he probably would have scored higher, but I just haven't decided some of the things that could raise his score yet. Thu, 24 Nov 2011 17:30:30 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=3#forum_thread_comment_827572 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=3#forum_thread_comment_827572 Twilord I scored a thirty for my main character... but alot of that seems to be because I wanted to make him a twink to whom being gay is by far the least sucky of his usages... no pun intended. I hope that excuses some of his 'rebelling against authority' and his (though not unbelievable) sexy body. I mean, I do have him do a sex scene... with his boyfried... that I describe in full. Fri, 25 Nov 2011 03:32:08 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=4#forum_thread_comment_830460 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=4#forum_thread_comment_830460 Professor.Banshee Haven't done one of these in forever, oh my gosh. I like that they use gender-neutral pronouns now. -10 for Sawyer. Being a wimpy, neurotic schoolboy, this isn't at all surprising. I really do need to rework him at some point, to make him suck less. 15 for Benji, which is kind of a surprise, considering he's a super-intelligent kind-of-alien-god-thing. I guess because he doesn't draw that much attention to himself, he got a lower score. Dunno if anyone's mentioned this yet, but: One thing people need to keep in mind is that these are just guidelines - try not to take them too seriously. Vastly overpowered characters can be annoying, sure, but that doesn't necessarily make them a Mary Sue. How the characters around them react to them can have an effect on their "Mary Sue status." If a character is super powerful/gorgeous/witty/whatever, and the other characters just treat them like any other person, then that can make them seem less like a Sue. Alternatively, Bella Swan is considered a huge Mary Sue, despite having no special qualities, because the whole cast constantly fawns over her for no reason. Just thought I should point that out. :) Fri, 25 Nov 2011 17:33:33 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=4#forum_thread_comment_837595 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=4#forum_thread_comment_837595 StubbornOne I have a 54, which is quite a shock because I had been trying to put him down. I'm not sure how to change him though... Mon, 28 Nov 2011 16:08:57 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=4#forum_thread_comment_870996 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=4#forum_thread_comment_870996 Iapetus999 Once I got to 100 I stopped counting. So it's fanfic. Mary-sue me. Tue, 29 Nov 2011 16:45:17 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=4#forum_thread_comment_883826 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=4#forum_thread_comment_883826 NatalieGriffin I tried two of my characters. . . One is 98 and the other is 58. It extremely disappointed me. I'm still in the process of discovering my characters, anyway. What's annoying is, my MC on my fan fiction actually scored 17! (I mean, why not my original fiction character?) I think the only good thing is that I only scored 2 on the Mary Sue Race Test. Wed, 30 Nov 2011 16:57:22 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=4#forum_thread_comment_896624 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=4#forum_thread_comment_896624 JuniorFrenzySista I am joining the club of people who say NaNo needs a Like button. Wed, 30 Nov 2011 17:43:43 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_897080 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_897080 JuniorFrenzySista Most of my characters get in the middling 20s. But I suppose I *have* experience. From RP characters that were so Sue-ish, it's embarrassing. But I try to write them so that the things that could make them Sue-ish (Anti-Social Personality, etc) are actually if not a bad thing, at least not something that comes up more than normal. Wed, 30 Nov 2011 18:01:47 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_897237 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_897237 Jedi_Shepp Well, looks like my FMC has a score of 21 with the Mary Sue Litmus Test. And my MMC has a score of 13. Funny, I thought my MMC was more of a x-ary Sue than my FMC. Fri, 02 Dec 2011 12:47:12 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=4#forum_thread_comment_919363 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=4#forum_thread_comment_919363 Arya Svit-Kona Er... then what is Stephanie Meyer? Sorry... i just had to say that. Sat, 03 Dec 2011 00:02:51 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_921967 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_921967 Arya Svit-Kona I'm an adolescent, and I have run every important character I have created through that test and none of them have come out with anything over 25. My MC scored a 15 on the test which is a non-sue. But then again, my MC is so different from me it's not even funny. There are a few questions on the test though that can up your score even if they don't make your character a Sue. For example... 67. Does your character frequently carry knives, daggers, or other little sharp pointy objects concealed within xir clothing for no other reason than that they might be come in handy? In my universe and the situation that world is in, people would be plain <em>stupid</em> to not carry around any of those sharp pointy weapons. Sat, 03 Dec 2011 00:05:07 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=4#forum_thread_comment_921974 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=4#forum_thread_comment_921974 the8thstone My MC scored an 18, though I'm still afraid that she's too much of a self-insert even if she isn't likeable. I found this test helpful too: http://www.ponylandpress.com/ms-test.html I think it's a little shorter than Universal Mary-Sue. My three MCs scored 20, 21, and 26 (not Mary-Sue, borderlining Mary-Sue, borderlining Mary-Sue). I need to improve on characterization more. Mon, 05 Dec 2011 17:56:25 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_935653 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=1#forum_thread_comment_935653 amaltheaa I think all of these tests are flawed because they don't (and can't) take context into consideration. My main character got almost 50 (I don't remember the exact number and i cba to fill that out again), and she is anything but a Sue. Honestly, people should worry less about having a Mary Sue and more about creating a character that they would like to read about. My MC is annoying, selfish, self-centered, spoiled, classist, and a huge brat, but the point is that she has to change. It shouldn't matter that she's physically beautiful or that she's got a wonderful singing voice, or that she can speak multiple languages, because those are all important parts of what made her the type of person that she is. I made her because I would actually be incredibly interested in reading about her internal transformations. She's not born a heroine, she becomes a heroine, and it's a long and difficult journey for her. Like someone (I'm sorry, I forget the username!) said before me, it's really not the character that's the Sue, it's the story that makes her a Sue. Because she changes and she struggles with her changes, she is not a Sue, even if she happens to be beautiful, or she happens to be talented, or she happens to be a polyglot, or the antagonist happens to be very fond of her. If there's backstory and a very valid reason to back up all of these traits (which there is), it shouldn't matter that you score high. Fri, 09 Dec 2011 09:39:52 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=4#forum_thread_comment_952514 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=4#forum_thread_comment_952514 Jedi_Shepp Actually, I took the test after completing the novel, and did so only for entertainment purposes. And yes, the test does not take context into account. Most of my FMC's points came from situations I placed her into for story and setup purposes, as opposed to "this just is". I think the whole Mary Sue thing is more about artificially orchestrating events to make that character seem more or less flawless and perfect. I'm not saying that people shouldn't have those characters, just that the story should revolve naturally around those characters instead of being blatantly and forcefully rigged from the writer and reader's perspective. Its the rigging that bothers people more than the actual Mary Sue character. But then its the Mary Sue character that gets pointed at because that's the common element throughout the rigged story. Sat, 10 Dec 2011 10:54:53 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=4#forum_thread_comment_956839 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=4#forum_thread_comment_956839 Espana Huh. So I ran a few of my characters through this test, specifically the ones whose lives already sucked BEFORE my story takes place (because now their lives suck twice as bad. In some cases, It Gets Worse.) And ironically, going through THIS test - - I got some interesting results. My MC, Kole has an angsty and unstable childhood, thanks to the fact that his mother suffered all of the abuse and from this gave him five stepfathers and countless boyfriends (and half-siblings he's never met). Including the experiment that mutates him and basically makes his life heck... he gets a 14. A supporting character, Sage, is kind of the opposite - she's the love of her parent's life. The parents however, not only love and try to appease her but their best friends, and whenever the friends' daughter dies, Sage's parents immediately offer Sage as a husband to their son. This has caused her to eventually rebel to the point of breaking not her family, but herself. She got a 2. The fiancee to Sage, Roy has have pretty much the same experience, except he's been in love with Sage for years, and actually puts UP with her. The one time he doesn't, the one time he finally figures it's been enough, she actually does care for him but by then, it's too late. All he can do is wish bitterly for a love he's never had. He got a 4. So either my characters aren't interesting... or they have a TON of flaws... Thu, 15 Dec 2011 06:04:44 +1100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=4#forum_thread_comment_972716 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/adventure/threads/4804?page=4#forum_thread_comment_972716