So ... um ... What happens now? http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632 Kazbert I've got a long rambling wreck that's all full of promise. Now what? and then waht? Fri, 02 Dec 2011 00:24:49 +0000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_918772 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_918772 TKofG Now the FUN part! Get out your red pencil and edit the heck out of it. Fri, 02 Dec 2011 01:40:41 +0000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_919316 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_919316 banditsrubyangel I concur with TKofG. Beat that bad boy into submission, and then decide where you want to go from there. You can bask in your accomplishment, because you've written more words this month than most people write in a year, or you can unleash your creation on an unsuspecting world by either self-pub or traditional publishing. Your choice. Fri, 02 Dec 2011 02:38:38 +0000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_919793 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_919793 dancingfool If you are thinking of editing, revising, editing, and more revising, and then finding a publisher.. there are many here who can give you solid advice on that process. OR... (warning, there are many who consider this to be highly blasphemous)... walk around with a silly grin on your face for a couple of weeks, put your MS in a folder, and.... that's it. Next year, you do another. Au chacun son gout Fri, 02 Dec 2011 02:51:49 +0000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_919879 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_919879 3DogMike For me the next step is to re-write. What I have right now is a royal mess so it needs a lot of work. In fact, I'm going to put this one aside to get the cramps out of my mind and go back to an older piece that needs polishing (well, grinding and patching and rebuilding and polishing, actually). The big thing as I see it is to keep writing, but that's just what I want to do. As dancingfool said, you can put this one in a drawer and start a new one next year. It's been done before - or so I've heard. Fri, 02 Dec 2011 04:32:34 +0000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_920596 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_920596 Kataja [quote=dancingfool] OR... (warning, there are many who consider this to be highly blasphemous)... walk around with a silly grin on your face for a couple of weeks, put your MS in a folder, and.... that's it. Next year, you do another. [/quote] We do not answer for the consequences of the silly grin... ;-) Fri, 02 Dec 2011 09:24:38 +0000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_921552 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_921552 RutaBaker Yes, keep on writing and start editing. And drop in occasionally to the geezer forum. Some of us are year 'rounders and there are dsome good discussions. I've also made good use of the reference and polling forums during the off season. Fri, 02 Dec 2011 13:35:15 +0000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_922054 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_922054 Kazbert I guess editing is the answer for me right now. I don't want to leave it unfinished. I'm searching the manuscript for notes that I've left to myself and expounding on those areas. Sometimes I have a small plot idea that I want to include but it doesn't seem to belong anywhere in the current story. And each minor character I touch now seemes to want a larger part in the story -- wants to say what things look like from their POV. How many characters is too many? I've read books where there are a lot of characters, and even though they all have a different name I quickly lost track of who is who. I did nto have the same problem when I read rowling's Potter books. Rowling introduced a lot fo characters, even in her somewhat short 77,000-word first book, but I didn't struggle to keep up with who is who. Any suggestions as to how to help the readers see these many characters as distinct? How important is it for the story to include all of the elements of "The Hero's Journey?" Can some elements be left out? I didn't write the story with it in mind to mold it to fit a certian form. How I can tell if there is or isn't enough conflict? What do I do if there isn't enough conflict? Fri, 02 Dec 2011 15:10:39 +0000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_922372 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_922372 Carolf Lois McMaster Bujold talks about getting conflict in her stories as this: Think of the worst thing that could happen to your hero right now. Do that. She's mean to her characters. And they rise to the occasion. Fri, 02 Dec 2011 15:56:44 +0000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_922565 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_922565 dancingfool ... and to expand on some of what Kazbert said... I know that characters need to have a different 'voice'.. so that you can tell who is talking, without the dreaded 'Suzie said'. Rowling certainly does that.. seems like she can go for pages, without ever specifically identifying the speaker... but I'm having a lot of problem with this. As I said,this is just an expansion of Kazbert's question of how to make characters appear distinct. Fri, 02 Dec 2011 15:59:10 +0000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_922571 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_922571 Zookeeper She's one of my favorite authors. When I buy a book of hers, I know I'm getting a good story. Fri, 02 Dec 2011 23:30:56 +0000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_924616 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_924616 Zookeeper I found myself constantly writing, "Dan said; Colleen said; Annabel said; Julio said." It drove me nuts. Although I've read that you're not supposed to get fancy, I found myself writing things like "Chip expounded; Jayce responded angrily; Elizabeth whined; Dan told them this." It was just to keep myself from going nuts with all the "he said, she said." Fri, 02 Dec 2011 23:33:53 +0000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_924631 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_924631 dancingfool yeah, did that (asked, replied, indicated, whined, snipped, commented, etc)... but have been told that it's still very annoying! Sat, 03 Dec 2011 00:22:16 +0000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_924845 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_924845 Kat Gentian It isn't really necessary to include "X said" at all. Instead of speech tags, use physical motion or a character's emotion. This is an example from the excerpt I had up (not that I'm so great, but it was easy to come by): He gently elbowed me in the ribs. “The BGE hasn’t shown up yet?” I chuckled. “The BGE is mythical at this point, Scotty.” “Maybe if you weren’t so cryptic about it.” He held his freckled hands out in front, like a camera man framing a shot. Use the speech tags judiciously, to emphasize the dialog - like whine, snapped, snarky tones. Sat, 03 Dec 2011 02:15:45 +0000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_925404 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_925404 Kat Gentian Okay, I pulled Cordelia's Honor (Lois McMaster Bujold's book, in case someone isn't familiar with it) from the shelf (bottom of page 562 in my paperback and one of my favorite scenes): "A morbid lunacy overtook her. She smiled fiercely at him, and held up the bag. "Shopping." .... "Want to see what I bought?" Cordelia continued, still floating." Sat, 03 Dec 2011 02:25:22 +0000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_925472 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_925472 Mother Goose Ahhh a Campbell fan!! Yes - you can leave out some of the steps and characters he used to describe the Hero's Journey, but not too many or your storyline will fizzle. Kaz - after you finish editing, contact me and I'd be pleased to be a beta reader for you. Perhaps you can be one for me as well. I'll check your manuscript for anything you ask me to look for - pacing, dialogue, story elements, etc... We'll help each other get ready for print. Sat, 03 Dec 2011 13:59:05 +0000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_927316 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_927316 Timkford How do you smile fiercely? Is a fierce smile a snarl? I'm not very good at forcing a smile, but I've stood in front of a mirror and just cannot do a fierce smile. Sat, 03 Dec 2011 15:01:15 +0000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_927449 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_927449 unicawn LOL Trying snarling with your lips turned up... showing your fangs? Or do things with your nose and top lip? I don't know really, I sometimes think it is all in the eyes, you know when they flash angrily or give a hard stare. Sat, 03 Dec 2011 16:19:20 +0000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_927686 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_927686 unicawn Do the forums stay open all year round then? Sat, 03 Dec 2011 16:20:24 +0000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_927692 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_927692 Timkford Thanks, but having tried those - just look even sillier! Sat, 03 Dec 2011 16:35:32 +0000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_927745 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_927745 dancingfool ooh ooh!!! send pics! I want to see that! Sat, 03 Dec 2011 17:08:40 +0000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_927838 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_927838 dancingfool Open - yes. Active - no. Which is one reason why The Pen founder set up an alternate site for the Pen on FB. Sat, 03 Dec 2011 17:10:35 +0000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_927844 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_927844 Kat Gentian Unicawn, yes, the forums are here all year. They will be wiped clean sometime in September in preparation for the next NaNo. For the smiling fiercely, think of an angry, exhausted soldier returning from a successful mission facing down someone who thinks said soldier is a bit incompetent. Soldier (here, Cordelia) knows that what's in the bag is gonna be a shocker. That might help. I didn't want to put up so much of the scene that it became a spoiler. Maybe this is one of those looks that can't be pulled off unless you're really feeling the emotion behind it? Sat, 03 Dec 2011 17:11:54 +0000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_927850 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_927850 Kat Gentian Oh, yes! Pic! Sat, 03 Dec 2011 17:12:33 +0000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_927851 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_927851 Meglet Whats a beta reader? I too will be researching editing writing and would love to keep hearing others' adventures... Sat, 03 Dec 2011 18:21:34 +0000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_928105 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_928105 Kat Gentian I googled it, because I have a sense of what a beta reader is but wasn't sure I was right. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_reader I guess everything has a wiki page! It's someone who reads your work and helps catch grammar, spelling, and other issues along with pointing out plot holes and such like. Sat, 03 Dec 2011 18:49:51 +0000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_928201 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_928201 Timkford Pics and uploading - far too technical for me. Besides I would have to stop gurning to take the picture! Sat, 03 Dec 2011 21:10:17 +0000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_928670 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_928670 Kat Gentian Another new word for me! Gurning! So, Tim, is that a hobby of yours, along with the golf and art and writing? http://www.worldwidewords.org/weirdwords/ww-gur1.htm "...the pulling of faces as a competitive activity. A surviving example is that in the Lake District, where the Egremont Crab-Apple Fair has an annual contest, which they call the World Championship Gurning Competition and which they say dates back to 1266." Sat, 03 Dec 2011 22:56:38 +0000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_929116 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_929116 Timkford oh - you've found me out. I let it slip and oh, bother - i suppose if you look hard enough you will find a picture of me somewhere on the webby thing entering a gurning competition, with my bottom lip curled up to my... no i won't describe it. Sat, 03 Dec 2011 23:50:58 +0000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_929324 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_929324 Zookeeper A beta reader is kind of a test reader. Someone who reads and reviews a work before editors or agents see it. Sun, 04 Dec 2011 01:24:19 +0000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_929677 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_929677 Kazbert Thanks for the beta offer MG! Don’t hold your breath, though. I’m having some commitment issues. A part of me wants to see it through to publishing, but another part is getting frustrated with the editing and just wants to set it aside. Writing with my internal editor muzzled worked well for NaNo, but with that internal editor unmuzzled it may take me another nine years to finish it. I heard about The Hero's Journey only a couple of months ago. My 21-year-old daughter, Katrina, is taking a Creative Writing class this semester. Katrina's forte is visual arts, so at least I know who will do the artwork should I ever reach that stage. Sun, 04 Dec 2011 01:32:23 +0000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_929710 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_929710 Generalist Bujold is a good author. Her Miles Vorkosigan series is wonderful. The idea of getting conflict into a story ties in with something I read about coincidences. You can use them all you want to get the characters into trouble. You shouldn't use them to get your characters out of trouble. Tue, 06 Dec 2011 22:42:52 +0000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_943108 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_943108 Mother Goose Kaz - have you ever edited a novel? The feeling of being finished is never there in my opinion (I've written five so far). You're a brave writer, and you have the story down. May I suggest you not only step away for the entire month of December, but that you forbid yourself to even look at the story until New Year's day? That way most of your editing will be happening in your subconscious. After Jan. 1, open the book and start reading. Don't go looking for errors to fix, just start reading your story again. You'll find yourself editing as you read, which is the easiest way I know to go about it. Then come looking for Beta Readers. Find me, or someone else if you prefer, and have them look for the things you don't see, like pacing flaws, or extraneous dialogue, or grammar errors. Then sift through their critique, taking what's valuable and letting the rest go. Edit the book based on your decisions. Then set the whole book aside for another month - refuse to look at it! Then sit down and do one last read through edit, and call that quits. Start a new project while you decide whether to pursue publishing with book 1. And since your daughter is on this epic Hero's Journey of yours (If you are the Hero, then editing the manuscript is reluctantly taking up the quest - you'd be crossing the first threshold) get her involved in the editing! It helps to have another pair of eyes, believe me. (tee hee - I'm your Wise Old Woman, and your daughter is one of your ally Guides! hehehe - everyone is on dozens of Hero's Journeys all the time!) Best of luck to you! It's a good book. Make it real. Wed, 07 Dec 2011 13:35:23 +0000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_946054 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_946054 Mother Goose You can ask for people to be beta readers for you in the NaNoWriMo forums. Under December and Beyond! there is a thread called Critiques, Feedback, & Novel swaps. Here's the link: http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/critiques-feedback-novel-swaps Remember, it's only fair to ask people to read and edit your book, if you're willing to read and edit others' as well. Make sure you choose the right genre in which to list your novel, so you get readers who know your type of book. Read through the excerpts listed in genre's you enjoy, and volunteer to beta read for them. Since professional editing costs well over $1,000 per book, it's by far the easiest and most cost effective way to go. Not as professional, perhaps, but you'd be surprised who volunteers to Beta Read, and how skilled many of them are. Wed, 07 Dec 2011 13:43:18 +0000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_946070 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_946070 Carolf [quote=dancingfool] yeah, did that (asked, replied, indicated, whined, snipped, commented, etc)... but have been told that it's still very annoying! [/quote] An editor/author once told me that "he said" is not a problem. It be comes invisible, where synonyms for "said" stand out. So, unless you need it to stand out, go ahead and use "said." For what it's worth. I go ahead and use "said" along with the speech tags Kat mentioned. Wed, 07 Dec 2011 17:28:26 +0000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_946607 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-50/threads/46632?page=1#forum_thread_comment_946607