Show not Tell - in Dialogue

Timkford — Sun, 04 Dec 2011 09:32:23 +0000

To focus on one element of the ‘um .. what next thread’ I am not sure how well I have written dialogue and what proportion is acceptable. Opinions on good dialogue & appropriate portions vary. See links/extracts below, the last one uses an exclamation mark and a variation on said. From http://fictionwriting.about.com/od/crafttechnique/tp/dialogue.htm 5. Don't Overdo Dialogue Tags. Veering too much beyond "he said/she said" only draws attention to the tags — and you want the reader's attention centered on your brilliant dialogue, not your ability to think of synonyms for "said." From http://www.thecwa.co.uk/daggers/debut/sins.html Exclamation marks! Try not to use exclamation marks. If a sentence is witty, funny or dramatic, the reader will notice anyway. If it's not, you won't make things better by drawing attention to it. http://users.wirefire.com/tritt/tip1.html Dialogue is another area where we have the opportunity to show or to tell. "I love you," she crooned. "I love you, too," he sputtered. And I cringe. First, using creative dialogue tags (crooned, sputtered) is one of my pet peeves and the topic of a tips page. Second, it is cheap. It is telling, not showing. Let the power of your dialogue and the accompanying action show your reader the tone of voice and the emotion, don't tell them. Consider: "I love you," she said, her voice smooth as her fingers massaged his Rolex. "Love you, too," he said. His glassy eyes roved over her naked body, his mouth too wet and limp to form words properly From http://www.dailywritingtips.com/show-dont-tell/ Use dialogue This is probably one of the first things I talk to my students about when I have them write personal essays. Dialogue allows the reader to experience a scene as if they were there. Instead of telling the reader your mom was angry, they can hear it for themselves: “Justin Michael,” mom bellowed, “Get in here this instant!” Dialogue can give your reader a great deal about character, emotion and mood Thoughts?

Re: Show not Tell - in Dialogue

treefrog5700 — Sun, 04 Dec 2011 14:44:19 +0000

My thought is that editing is the best stage of writing. November (and beyond, for many people) was for getting the story down. Now is when you get to polish it and turn it into real writing. I might be weird, but I love this part. I probably use most of these tips. I like to immerse my reader in the story (or attempt to, anyway.) Tags get in the way of that. I use them only where the reader might lose track of who is talking. If the dialogue is immediately followed by an action by the speaker, it is understood that it is the same person. "I'm not touching that thing," Chris said, backing away. vs. "I'm not touching that thing." Chris backed away. I prefer the latter. But where I do use tags, I keep them common so that the reader can tune them out. And yeah, exclamation points make me cringe.

Re: Show not Tell - in Dialogue

Catana — Sun, 04 Dec 2011 15:46:00 +0000

Exclamation points can be overdone, but avoiding them entirely certainly isn't necessary. In fact, they're more likely to have the dramatic effect you want if you haven't overloaded the text with them. "No!" Stacey spun around, startled out of her reverie by Tom's agonized shriek. You don't have to resort to something like "No," Tom shrieked, startling Stacey out of her reverie. The first has dramatic impact; the second has practically none.

Re: Show not Tell - in Dialogue

Timkford — Sun, 04 Dec 2011 16:22:03 +0000

mmmm - just started to go through focussing only on my dialogue. I quite liked it as it was but I have put a few more descriptive bits in. Then I picked up the nearest book, which was a best seller - and it has loads of said synonyms.(And exclamation marks)

Re: Show not Tell - in Dialogue

treefrog5700 — Sun, 04 Dec 2011 17:40:13 +0000

I don't think there are any set rules that apply everywhere. If there were, I'd probably break them on purpose. Like Catana said, an exclamation point can be the best way to express something if you don't overuse them. Stick them on every page and I'll return the book to the library without finishing it. Also, just because something is a best seller doesn't mean it was well written. It just means that lots of people wanted to read the story. The Twilight series is a great example. I couldn't get past a few pages of Stephanie Myers's writing and yet it was hugely popular.

Re: Show not Tell - in Dialogue

Kat Gentian — Sun, 04 Dec 2011 18:19:14 +0000

As I mentioned in the other thread, use physical motions, etc. linked to the dialog rather than speech tags. So Nina and I agree on this. To help polish the dialog in your own writing, read it out loud. Really! Your ear will pick up stilted language faster than your eye. It helps to read all of it out loud as part of the edit process (just the section you're working on for a novel, of course). Also agree that just because it's a best seller doesn't mean it's well written! Perhaps look at the work of favorite authors, who may or may not be big sellers, for examples of how this dialog stuff can be handled.

Re: Show not Tell - in Dialogue

Timkford — Sun, 04 Dec 2011 20:09:47 +0000

My son mentioned the Twilight series - not something I've read. As for reading it out loud - people already think i'm mad. (or perhaps that means i can do it - oops, nearly put an exclamation mark then ... and then ..and ...)

Re: Show not Tell - in Dialogue

Sancho Panza — Sun, 04 Dec 2011 23:32:39 +0000

Hello? Sam peered into the darkness of the barn. To her left, the door to the milkshed opened: Well, hello there! She turned in the direction of the voice. (I tried the second sentence using a period in place of the exclamation point and it fell flat.) Sometimes, especially in dialogue, someone is truly exclaiming. When you are done editing and look carefully at your work, unecessary punctuation will become apparent and you will find you have a bit more work to do. Otherwise, if it's a fantastic story and someone wishes to publish it; they will help you tame the beast.

Re: Show not Tell - in Dialogue

Timkford — Mon, 05 Dec 2011 00:17:38 +0000

Thanks- must have taken 20 exclamation marks out the first 7 chapters so far.

Re: Show not Tell - in Dialogue

Kat Gentian — Mon, 05 Dec 2011 00:44:40 +0000

[___] <--- that's a bin for all the !!!!

Re: Show not Tell - in Dialogue

Kazbert — Mon, 05 Dec 2011 02:35:24 +0000

FWIW, I'd rather get a root canal that read any part of "Twilight," but I really enjoyed Meyers' "Host." Even the same author can produce different works that appeal to different folks. I'm the same way with Stephen King. I'm not at all a fan of horror, but I have enjoyed a couple of King's books.

Re: Show not Tell - in Dialogue

intrikate — Mon, 05 Dec 2011 05:00:49 +0000

I have a couple of places where there are no tags at all, and I'm wondering how "wrong" that is. Like this bit at the end of a (probably needs to be edited) longish phone conversation between best friends. I'd love some feedback if that's appropriate here. -- “He favors his mom, I think.” Nicole answered. “His eyes are slate blue, and Dr. B’s were brown, but he has Dr. B’s laugh lines around his eyes, and the prominent forehead without the brows.” “Omigod. You like him a lot!” Donna was nearly yelling into the phone. “Laugh lines? You saw his laugh lines? Not blue but slate blue?” Donna was laughing. “Did you give him your number?” “I’m hanging up now.” Nicole swirled the ice cubes around in her nearly empty tea glass. “Oh no you’re not.” “Yep. Getting late. Early morning. Gotta go.” “Don’t you dare hang up.” “Love you, too! Sweet dreams.” Nicole walked back to the phone charger, her thumb hovering over the disconnect button. “You’re the one with the new dream man.” Donna answered. “You have sweet dreams.” “Can’t hear you. Nite!” Nicole chuckled and hung up the phone.

Re: Show not Tell - in Dialogue

Timkford — Mon, 05 Dec 2011 08:31:58 +0000

You're dialogue seems fine to me in this extract. I think you just need to make sure it is pushing the story along and not too lifelike - where we all witter on. My story starts with dialogue with hardly any tags to keep the urgency. I was worried about it especially after reading what experts say about dialogue but it feels right to me. I don't see that you need any more tags than you have.

Re: Show not Tell - in Dialogue

dancingfool — Mon, 05 Dec 2011 12:27:35 +0000

As I count it, you've only got 3 non-tagged lines, in the middle of a bunch of tagged lines,so it's extremely easy to tell who is saying what, even without counting! (which is something I've had to do, when reading published books, by established authors!).. so I'd say you're more than fine.

Re: Show not Tell - in Dialogue

Kat Gentian — Mon, 05 Dec 2011 13:30:19 +0000

I agree with Time and Fool. It works.

Re: Show not Tell - in Dialogue

treefrog5700 — Mon, 05 Dec 2011 14:16:21 +0000

If you start having to count backward to figure out who is talking, you might need more tags. This isn't an issue here. I agree with the writers above. It works.

Re: Show not Tell - in Dialogue

intrikate — Mon, 05 Dec 2011 17:51:21 +0000

Thanks. Point taking about the wittering. I suspect there's more of that in my novel than there should be, although as a reader I do enjoy a bit of wittering when I love the characters. :)

Re: Show not Tell - in Dialogue

intrikate — Mon, 05 Dec 2011 17:53:34 +0000

Hah! I worry too much, I guess, but I sure wouldn't let it go so far people had to count. Thanks!

Re: Show not Tell - in Dialogue

intrikate — Mon, 05 Dec 2011 17:53:50 +0000

Thanks. :)

Re: Show not Tell - in Dialogue

intrikate — Mon, 05 Dec 2011 18:01:58 +0000

Thanks. :)

Re: Show not Tell - in Dialogue

Mother Goose — Mon, 05 Dec 2011 23:04:23 +0000

Okay - another question in the area of dialogue: My book has multiple POVs, each expressed in chronological episodes. It is important that I establish who the character is in each scene quickly, so the reader feels connected to the story. The story is a psychological one, much of the growth internal. It would be forced to create too much dialogue. So to move the story along I've allowed each character to express their thoughts in their own segments to replace the dialogue. I'm afraid it may be too cutsey, or kitsch. I italicize the thought dialogue to separate it from the 3rd person narrative. I can't use italics in this forum, but I'll indicate where they are by putting (*) before and after the italicized words: *Man, I’m getting fat,* thought Brent. He tugged on his letter jacket to get it closed enough to zip. *Baseball isn’t until April. I’ve gotta do something between now and then or the guys’ll be calling me Lardass.* He walked across the parking lot, looking for Bette Sue’s silver Corvette, but she wasn’t there yet. He had to spark things up with the harpy bitch. She thought he was taking things too slow. Mike said he saw her talking to Christian Thorquist, the basketball forward, during lunch last week. *Dickwad basketball star.* Brent could feel his popularity waning, an ebb tide sucking away his self esteem. He needed something to boost his image, make him popular again. The first bell rang, and Brent figured that Bette Sue would be late to school again today, so he turned and headed for the door. There, walking calmly down the sidewalk with his arm around that dirty dyke, was Vic Clements. The cocksucker was back! What great timing! *I’mma get me some fag,* he thought gleefully. Brent was so happy to see Vic that he smiled. To his surprise, Vic smiled right back at him. He even raised his hand in salute. Brent blinked a few times. *He looks bigger,* he thought, *and stronger too.* Brent had to admit it. *He looks good.* Okay - that's one of the episodes I was talking about above. There is no dialogue, it's all internal. So my questions are: Does it work? If you think it does, Does the italicization work? Or is there a way to denote thoughts without using quote marks (which to me mean verbal speech only)? Or do I even need to set them apart at all. Would it be better to just use the same regular font and type in the thoughts as regular 3rd person narrative? And forgive me if I haven't used the proper terms. I never got to study writing in college, so I'm stumbling along trying to do the best I can. Your advice will be much appreciated! (exclamation mark intended)

Re: Show not Tell - in Dialogue

Mother Goose — Mon, 05 Dec 2011 23:06:05 +0000

Oh my goodness! I'm so sorry I forgot to put up a warning about the language. It is critical to the development of this character - but I should have warned you first. Mea culpa - I'm so sorry if I've offended anyone.

Re: Show not Tell - in Dialogue

Timkford — Mon, 05 Dec 2011 23:48:05 +0000

Not offended. While I like to air questions and see what others think / have found. I find novel-writing-help.com a good site - it has a section on internal dialogue.(I can't really claim any expertise or education in writing.) You should look at the site - but for me,what you have done works - and having only quickly looked at the site, I think you have followed their advice. So - your stumbling looks pretty good. Personally, I usually slap, thenn rub my stomach as I think I'm fatter than I want to be.

Re: Show not Tell - in Dialogue

dancingfool — Tue, 06 Dec 2011 00:19:43 +0000

hey, even on my worst days, I can count to three without working up a sweat!

Re: Show not Tell - in Dialogue

Kat Gentian — Tue, 06 Dec 2011 04:53:43 +0000

In most books thoughts are put in italics, so you're on the right track there. It works for me the way you're doing it. {Aside: you can do italics in the forums; need to use HTML coding. There's info on it somewhere in the forums I think. It looks sort of like: < em > italicized text here < /em > I put in extra spaces so you could see it; in use there are no spaces between the < > symbols and the text inside them. The "/" is the turn off key. See! Italics! (and some of Tim's stray exclamation points!) For bold use strong instead of em, with the < > and < />. }

Re: Show not Tell - in Dialogue

Timkford — Tue, 06 Dec 2011 08:19:39 +0000

THEY ARE MARKS !!! Question Mark '?' Exclamation mark '!' - if it was anything else it would be an excl stop, as in the full stop underneath. Got rid of another dozen or so last night - don't know why, I'm not writing for an American audience! (oops,can't stop myself)

Re: Show not Tell - in Dialogue

Mother Goose — Tue, 06 Dec 2011 15:51:54 +0000

Thanks for the link Tim. I'm astounded at what help I've gotten since I decided to leap into NaNoWriMo this year. And to think, I've been scouring grammar sites and buying books, going without the moral support and encouragement all these years! I will look into the site today Thanks again.

Re: Show not Tell - in Dialogue

Mother Goose — Tue, 06 Dec 2011 15:56:50 +0000

Thanks for the input. And thanks for the coding assist too. I'd tried the old html code for italics and for bold - but since they hadn't worked I hadn't gone any further. Now I know just what, you mean!

Re: Show not Tell - in Dialogue

Mother Goose — Tue, 06 Dec 2011 16:02:21 +0000

You know Tim, I'm beginning to think of online exclamation marks as human smiles. Most of my IM's or emails are liberally doused with !s. An emoticon (see how old I am) takes two moves and a switch of thought processes. A simple exclamation point makes my point with the emotional impact of a smile. For instance: I think the picture you sent was great. I'll place it on the mantle piece in the front room where everyone can see it. I think the picture you sent was great! I'll place it on the mantle piece in the front room where everyone can see it!! I feel a lot of smiling in the second response, as opposed to the first. Exclamation points now feel like encouragement and praise, at least in interpersonal communications. Don't know why I threw that in here, but I was thinking about it while reading your struggle with the marks.

Re: Show not Tell - in Dialogue

Timkford — Tue, 06 Dec 2011 16:26:02 +0000

yep - I'll go with smiles. But I think it is others that struggle with my use of exclamation marks! (smiles) let me know if you don't find that site - I wasn't sure if I could put a link on there

Re: Show not Tell - in Dialogue

dancingfool — Tue, 06 Dec 2011 17:02:09 +0000

Exactly!!! (3 exclamation marks... a very very big smile!)

Re: Show not Tell - in Dialogue

Dixiegirl — Tue, 06 Dec 2011 21:12:56 +0000

LOL, Tim, leave it to you to wind us up. Who knew that exclamation points were so exciting! As for me, I learned most of what I know about writing from a professor of journalism and published author. He hated exclamation points. His philosophy was that he allowed only one in fiction. None in non-fiction. Isn't that the strangest thing! But also told me a story about breaking rules. He said an English prof. told him that you could not write a complete sentence with just one word. His response to said teacher? "Bullshit." So, rules are made to be broken, all except the ones that make the writing coherent and formatted correctly. With that in mind, LOL, I'm passing the basket and you can put all unused exclamation points in it. I have a handy spot on my desk for them. They'll make great paperweights, too. Best wishes and congratulations to all of you. But we're all winners if we played the game. Hope you all have a wonderful Christmas and Happy New Year. If you don't celebrate those holidays.. try and have fun doing whatever you do. Until next year! Bye, y'all!

Re: Show not Tell - in Dialogue

Timkford — Tue, 06 Dec 2011 23:55:33 +0000

Wind up - me? Sounded final - so merry new xmas, maybe next year

Re: Show not Tell - in Dialogue

Kat Gentian — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 02:28:03 +0000

Exclamation points - exclamation marks. Is this something that changes when you cross the pond? Based on a google search, either is correct. I learned them as points (question mark, exclamation point). Is it a regional difference? Midwesterners (me) and Southerners (Dixie) say 'mark,' New Englanders (Laurie) and Old Englanders (Tim) say 'point?' But then Mother Goose used 'mark' and she's in Minnesota..... Wait. I'm trying to make English sensible. Duh, not gonna happen.

Re: Show not Tell - in Dialogue

dancingfool — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 03:37:56 +0000

who's Laurie? (oh, never mind!) I kind of don't count... because my mother is English, I grew up in Colorado, and I've been in New England for 30 years now. so some of my phrasing and pronunciation is British (Bob's your uncle, to-mah-to), some is midwestern, and some is New England (Hahvahd yahd). A bit of a mongrel, I am.

Re: Show not Tell - in Dialogue

intrikate — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 06:14:00 +0000

Louisiana here - point. :)

Re: Show not Tell - in Dialogue

Kataja — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 09:39:03 +0000

I have learned English at school, and I've never hears "exclamation point", mark it was. We were taught British English. And probably I've learned grammar and orthography terms in school, although later on much of my vocabulary has come from US sources (books, papers, TV).

Re: Show not Tell - in Dialogue

Mother Goose — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 14:01:58 +0000

I not only found it (smooches) I found the article you referenced and read it all the way through, thereby giving me the tools I need to finish my project! It was perfect advice, perfectly given - thank you! :-D

Re: Show not Tell - in Dialogue

treefrog5700 — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 14:05:31 +0000

I can't find where anyone has addressed this part of your excerpt. If they have, excuse the repetition. I'm reading later, when there are 13 responses I've missed. I tried to scan them all. If you are using italics to denote thought, you don't need the "thought Brent," tag. The reader already knows.

Re: Show not Tell - in Dialogue

Mother Goose — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 14:19:17 +0000

Checking the map - hmmm - last I knew Minnesota was in the Midwest, which would make my 'mark' fit right in, wouldn't it? We're at the northern tip of tornado alley, and just east of the great plains. Unless you call us Canadians (which I wouldn't advise) then we're Midwesterners. It may be one of those pesky variables that humanness involves. For instance, I was raised and educated in California, by parents from Oklahoma and Kansas. The terms 'exclamation point' and 'exclamation mark' are used interchangeably in California. If you check my post above, you notice I used both in the same post. I also ask people if they'd like me to spell them, when I'm asking if they'd like me to cover for them on a break. Now just which region of the country still says that, I ask you? Where in the world did I pick that up?

Re: Show not Tell - in Dialogue

dancingfool — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 14:21:12 +0000

Tree... they just did a general reply, rather than a nested reply. Both Tim and Kat responded to MG

Re: Show not Tell - in Dialogue

Kat Gentian — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 14:50:36 +0000

Oops! Probably saw the 'point' first, then looked back and picked up on the 'mark' ... Yeah, I know MN is in the midwest! Daughter considered going to college there (Carlton).

Re: Show not Tell - in Dialogue

Kat Gentian — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 14:53:14 +0000

I'm not quite as much of a mongrel. New England mother, southern father, and I've lived from Louisiana to Florida to Wisconsin to Maryland to Illinois. Hmmm, maybe I should consider retiring out west somewhere, so I can add that region.

Re: Show not Tell - in Dialogue

Timkford — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 15:29:12 +0000

It is good isn't it. I have been sort of compiling a checklist of things to correct from the site as well realising that I have some areas that need a lot of work - getting pace and detail right - basically all from that site. Pleased to help

Re: Show not Tell - in Dialogue

Dixiegirl — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 18:04:15 +0000

Actually points in Alabama. . . but I adapt to foreign languages so have used marks. LOL

Re: Show not Tell - in Dialogue

treefrog5700 — Fri, 09 Dec 2011 01:51:53 +0000

I've always heard them called exclamation points. Mother learned English (the British version) as a third language in India. This makes me suspect that we never discussed punctuation. Quite possible.

Re: Show not Tell - in Dialogue

dancingfool — Wed, 14 Dec 2011 14:28:47 +0000

Back to the subject line of this thread... yesterday I came across something that was talking about, and explaining, show not tell. Writers were cautioned against doing nothing but show, because if you weren't careful, you could find yourself showing things that weren't 'show-worthy', and could end up losing the story in the detail of the 'show', and annoying and/or boring the reader. Curiously enough, I'm currently reading the story of a wrimer (not a 50+er), and although for the most part, I enjoy the story... there have been a few questions where the detail and descriptions were actually distracting from the plot. So I guess the mantra should be Show not Tell, but not too much!