World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Wed, 12 Oct 2011 00:52:17 +0100

Okay, we'll try this once again. (third try so far) I will once again host the World War II classroom. This is the place to bring your questions about the era, both civilian and military, and from all around the world. Want to know about the Wehrmacht in Italy, the Marines at Tarawa, or the Red Army in Stalingrad? This is the place. Want to know what life was like "back home" in Iowa, or how the French civilians dealt with German occupation? This is your room. Leave your questions here, and we'll find you answers. Be as specific as you can, because the answers change if you don't. If you ask "What did the British Army do?" you won't get much. If you ask "What did the British Army eat during the battle and siege of Tobruk?" we can help you. Welcome back, all you returning scholars. Thanks for the help you're so willing to share.

Re: World War II classroom

Yasaibatake — Wed, 12 Oct 2011 15:08:17 +0100

Yay! Ok, I'll be the first to step up to the plate. I have the military and political movements/people/etc. down pretty well (especially when it comes to the Gestapo, Vichy, and the French Resistance) so if anyone needs any help with that kind of thing, I'd love to help! My gaps are in the day-to-day living information, so that's what my first question is going to deal with. Does anyone know how the war/occupation affected the French diet in, say, mid-1941 Paris? (It doesn't have to be that exact, of course) I can find information on American food rationing, but no one seems to care what the French ate. *grumble*

Re: World War II classroom

svetkar — Wed, 12 Oct 2011 23:39:38 +0100

Here I'm again with my questions! How common was it for people to know how to drive a car in Nazi-era Germany? I suppose not many Germans could afford a car, but how common would it be for a person to learn to drive and pass a driving test without planning to get a car right away? In my novel I have an episode where several people from a German military administration office in Eastern Europe are fleeing the Soviet Army. Officially they're "evacuating" important files and valuables. Maybe a truck or two, and a Kubelwagen car. One or two drivers become incapacitated (sick, wounded or killed). One of the vehicles is malfunctioning. They get stranded in a major city, and Russians are dangerously close. I'm thinking Breslau, Frankfurt-am-Oder or Vienna, but that would depend on the timelines in my story. How desperate would they be to find someone capable of driving without running the vehicle into the first bomb crater? My idea is that one of them bumps into a Wehrmacht driver, a NCO, who is about to be pressed into commandeering a Volkssturm unit. The NCO used to command a now defunct transport unit. He is certain that Volkssturm stands no chance against the Red Army and gladly takes the job of transporting the army bureaucrats in a hope to return to Leipzig, his hometown.

Re: World War II classroom

svetkar — Thu, 13 Oct 2011 04:52:03 +0100

@Grand Poobah Thank you for your comments! [quote] The Americans "captured" many very good automobiles, most in great shape and lightly used during their advance into Germany proper. The Russians probably did to, but simply destroyed them since they largely relied upon trucks supplied by the Americans (oddly, mostly Studebakers) and their troops traveled by cart using horses or whatever was available [/quote] According to Russian sources, the captured German cars were often appropriated by Soviet officers and generals or sent to the Soviet Union as reparations. Marshal Zhukov owned 5 Horch cars and armored Mercedes-Benz 770K after the war. There was a certain hierarchy in the Soviet military in regard to captured automobiles: Army reporters - Ford Eifel, German assembly Officers - Opel Olympia, Opel Kadett (lower rank) or Mercedes 170 (higher rank) Generals - Opel Admiral, Horch, Grosser Mercedes Maybach was unpopular due to its high complexity. There are Russian anecdotes describing how Soviet lieutenants would drive to meetings in posh German cars they appropriated a day or two before. Senior officers would notice the cars and requisition them for the "army", meaning for themselves. As a result, the lower rank officers learned to leave their cars in garages and come to big meetings by bicycle or horse-cart.

Re: World War II classroom

sophia0021 — Thu, 13 Oct 2011 15:22:28 +0100

Hi all...I'd like to help out here as well if I can. My grad studies took me into the Holocaust/Nazi Eugenics program (a 'lovely' topic-I know..intensely fascinating, but nighmarish). In any event, if anyone has an questions on these topics, or anything that happened as far as laws, relocation, etc..I'd be happy to help. Kat

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sschwarz — Fri, 14 Oct 2011 00:57:22 +0100

Hello. My research for my novel has given me some knowledge about the home front, conditions and mentalities of soldiers and so forth. I also have a slew of book titles I can offer up to anyone interested looking for more information on the subject.

Re: World War II classroom

Sprog — Fri, 14 Oct 2011 04:58:31 +0100

I've been doing extensive research regarding The Battle of Britain, and also can recommend a goodly number of books and other reference information sources on the topic.

Re: World War II classroom

svetkar — Fri, 14 Oct 2011 05:59:13 +0100

@ Antonia_tiger [quote] I don't have a direct figure, but this table is for 1939. Population in ( millions) Motor Vehicles in (millions) P:MV* France 42.0 1.8 23.3:1 Germany 75.0 2.0 37.5:1 Great Britain 48.0 1.5 32.0:1 Italy 39.0 0.3 130.0:1 United States 132.0 30.0 4.4:1 [/quote] Thank you for sharing the stats. They certainly help clarify the larger picture! To follow suit, my area of expertise in WWII history is the Eastern Front and Soviet Union. I've been researching Nazi occupation and partisan warfare in Ukraine, which involved readings covering a far broader area from the Baltic to the Black Sea and Caucasus. There are a lot of good Russian sources out there. I could also help a bit with the Soviet culture and mentality of the time. In addition, I've been researching 1945 Berlin and Wehrmacht on the Eastern Front, but I'm sure Grand Poobah knows more than me on the subjects. Still, more and more new Russian sources are coming online, and I'll be happy to direct anyone interested to them. Myself, I was thrilled to find out that the Ministry of Defense of Russian Federation made available online scans of declassified original Soviet Army reports and maps from the Battle of Berlin!

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sookielala — Fri, 14 Oct 2011 13:31:30 +0100

Hi all. As I just finished my MA in Holocaust Studies, I might be able to lend a hand with a few things here or there. While I have done extensive research on the psychology of Nazi antisemitism, I would say my 'specialty' is Auschwitz (I, II, & III), as well as Höss. Look forward to helping out, and also learning a heap from everyone else here!

Re: World War II classroom

dancer_kirsten — Fri, 14 Oct 2011 13:59:48 +0100

Anyone who would like to know about the day-to-day life of a house-wife till December 1941, feel free to ask. I can get actual info for the Netherlands from magazines of that period, and I suspect that this will cover most other occupied countries in Western Europe. I have info about fashion, recipes, childcare etc.

Re: World War II classroom

AlyssaLee — Fri, 14 Oct 2011 19:47:44 +0100

What make/model cars would have been driven by your everyday Frenchman/woman in 1940?

WWII "Technicians"?

keystrokegraffiti — Sun, 16 Oct 2011 11:42:41 +0100

So, in the United States' Army, the rank of "Technician" (fifth, fourth, and third grades) was given to people that had "specialized skills", but did not have the leadership capability to earn the ranks of Corporal, Sergeant, and Staff Sergeant. My question, if anyone can help me out, is: what constituted as "specialized skills" back then? I know that the rank was removed after the war and then later remade as "Specialist", but I was under the impression that it simply dealt with what type of weapon you used and how good you were with it. Though, I did some more research and found out that it could also apply to cooks, mechanics, etc. Is the term "specialized skills" really that broad? Just given to people that were good enough at something to be promoted, but not given the responsibility to lead? Thanks for the help!

Re: World War II classroom

aminebabe — Sun, 16 Oct 2011 13:41:32 +0100

Anyone needing info on the Battle of Britain, Scottish History, or anything that may require uni level research, drop me a line! Advantage of having access to the uni library etc :)))))

Re: World War II classroom

FionaJL — Sun, 16 Oct 2011 16:52:20 +0100

How well was PTSD understood, and what sort of treatments were used for it? I'm writing about a British psychiatric hospital, and I want to know what they'd have understood about PTSD, clinical depression or bipolar disorder, chronic anxiety and the like, and what methods would have been used as treatment. Electric shock therapy? Any drugs? Bed rest? Or just counselling? This is great, thank you for putting this here. I'm really dredging the depths of the local library books, and I think my Google searches have just got suspect all over again.

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Outlier- — Sun, 16 Oct 2011 23:39:04 +0100

My story is set in Occupied France around '41. I was wondering, were there many German soldiers stationed there, or was it mostly enforced by local French fascists? Also, since it was technically legal, were homosexuals treated as severely as in other countries? It's rather difficult to find information about. ^^ Thanks for your time! :)

Jazz in occupied Holland

Gadifere — Mon, 17 Oct 2011 12:21:08 +0100

I hope someone can help me with some information about the music/entertainment scene in occupied Holland (some general remarks on occupied Europe/Nazi Germany would be very helpful). I haven't really narrowed it down to a specific time during the war, though I mostly focus on the beginning (1940-1942). Anything in between 1940-1945 would be helpful. One of my characters is a big jazz fan (Johnny and Jones, the Ramblers, mostly), but I know nothing about jazz and how music was listened to/performed at that time. - In what kind of places would these musicians perform? What would their performance have looked like? - How accesable would those establishments / performances have been for normal Dutch citizens? Would they have to be a member of the Dutch Nazi party? What kind of people would come to watch these performances? Could you just walk in or did you need to buy a ticket beforehand? - Any books/websites/other resources you could recommend me if I want to know more?

Re: World War II classroom

svetkar — Mon, 17 Oct 2011 22:23:05 +0100

I haven't had much luck finding out whether such an episode would be feasible and how it could happen in Berlin in May-June 1945: A German has been having an affair with an Ostarbeiterin, who worked in his parents' bakery in Berlin. Immediately after the capitulation of Germany they register their marriage, which has been impossible under the Nazi rule. The location is Berlin-Reinickendorf. No wedding, no church ceremonies, just getting a marriage certificate. Sounds simple, isn't it? Not so because: - It isn't clear which government office would register marriages at the time. The City Hall (Rathaus) building in Reinickendorf was badly damaged and unusable. Several of the City Hall offices were set up in different places in the area. However, I didn't find any mention of a Standesamt operating in Reinickendorf at the time; - There was also the Soviet Kommandatura to contend with. In the beginning it assumed some functions of the City Hall, but, again, no clear information on marriage registrations and no descriptions of the process; - It was possible for a forced laborer to marry another forced laborer in Nazi Berlin. I've found Third Reich marriage certificates of forced laborers from a Ukrainian state archive online. The marriages were registered at a local Standesamt. After the Battle of Berlin, the situation is unclear; - Once the Soviets took over a German territory, they demanded repatriation of every Soviet forced laborer. Since the Ostarbeiterin character would have only an Arbeitskarte as her ID, my guess is that would make it harder for her to marry a German and avoid the repatriation. - However, my other guess is that in the initial chaos the couple could slip through, especially if the clerks at Standesamt or whatever offfice it was were Germans, confused and befuddled by the new rules; a bribe with food (the bread from the bakery!) could be a factor too; - If the Ostarbeiterin changed her last name to her German husband's, logically she would have to get a new ID - a Kennkarte. However, how would it be possible for her to get a new Kennkarte in Soviet-occupied Berlin in 1945? That needs to take place before French occupation of Reinickendorf. Any source recommendations or insights would be a great help. Thank you!

Re: World War II classroom

pirateaika — Wed, 19 Oct 2011 06:23:05 +0100

A huge thank you for this thread! I'm hoping to set my novel more on the U.S. homefront, but I'm having trouble finding good resources about German/German-American treatment in the U.S., particularly details about internment. Some sources say about 11,000 people were held (as late as the late 1940s), but I can't find any policy or any real (reliable) details. How accurate is that number? Who would have qualified for this internment? One of my characters is a German immigrant who served for Germany in WWI, then moved with his British wife to the U.S. Would he have been likely to come under suspicion? Would whether or not he became a U.S. citizen make a difference? And if anyone knows about resources along these lines, I'd be very grateful for some recommendations.

Re: World War II classroom

saruzake — Wed, 19 Oct 2011 16:37:25 +0100

I know most people focus on the European side of the war, but if there are any questions about the Pacific/Japanese side, I will do my best to help. My focus is on the 15 Years War (1931-1945) and my NaNo two years ago was set in Japan in 1938 (and I'll be writing the sequel this time around).

Re: World War II classroom

Maracate — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 05:07:12 +0100

I have a question? I apologize if some parts of it are unclear. ^^; See, I have a boy who joined the American army at 17. This would be a few years before the war actually started (not before US involvement, but before the entire war). He gets trained as a sniper, and then the war starts and he gets shipped over to Europe. I was wondering what, exactly, he would be doing out on the field, and where he might be? And would it be plausible for him to be overseas for five years? Four of those would be fighting, the last year he would be a POW. I remember reading somewhere that it was unlikely for a person to live more than a year as a POW at the time.... And, on that note, how would he be treated as a POW? Not a Japanese prisoner, but maybe German or Italian?

Re: World War II classroom

svetkar — Sat, 22 Oct 2011 05:34:02 +0100

Popping in with new questions re: the Third Reich male mentality. 1) How did German men view their war scars and injuries in the Third Reich and postwar - as a badge of honor or as an ugly disfigurement? What I have got on the subject: - Dueling traditions at German universities that seem to indicate that it could be "cool" for men to have scars: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dueling_scars; - In his books, Erich Maria Remarque mentions depressive reactions of WWI veterans with severe scars and amputations, including problems in relationships with women; - Nazi ideology appeared to emphasize physical beauty and fitness as hallmarks of the master race. In my novel I have Wehrmacht veterans who have: 1) Burn scars covering a large part of the man's face, his shoulder and arm, and restricting the range of motion in his shoulder and arm. The man's eyesight, hearing and speech are preserved; 2) Amputated toes due to a frostbite and a limp from a knee wound. The man can walk around without crutches or cane; 3) Scarring on upper body from superficial wounds but otherwise the man is not handicapped in his movements. None of these men is severely disabled to the point not being able to perform physical labor. How those men would feel about their appearances? Would they have issues in intimate relationships with women? Also, would their perceptions of their looks change after the defeat of Germany? Any sources or personal accounts that deal with such experiences? Memoirs of Wehrmacht veterans are strangely scant about the issues, even when talking about fellow comrades. Thanks a lot!

Re: World War II classroom

Outlier- — Sat, 22 Oct 2011 18:29:21 +0100

I just realised that I have a load of research to do for NaNo, so you will probably be seeing a lot of me in this thread throughout November. XD Now, to spam you all with my questions. 1) How old was the average Nazi captain? And how did one rise up in the ranks in the German army? 2) Was there high unemployment during Paris around 1941? How was the city, economically? 3) How seriously was the curfew in Paris imposed, and what happened if you were caught breaking it?

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bravrayj — Sat, 22 Oct 2011 22:18:41 +0100

I'm not sure if this is the right place to put this question, but I have two WWII-related questions involving the Japanese for another story I'm writing. 1. Why would a 21 year old Japanese woman marry a USAF serviceman and leave Japan in 1955? I asked this question in the plot doctoring forum with more specifics. 2. How would someone that was 1/2 Japanese be treated in the United States outside of the West Coast that wanted to fight for the US in WWII?

Re: World War II classroom

jjsigford — Sun, 23 Oct 2011 02:43:57 +0100

Hello everyone, So, I have a few questions for my NaNo that are WW2 related. I could gloss over it since it's not the main focus of my novel, but I'd prefer to be respectful and capture what life was like the best I can. So, here's the gist: I have Phoebe (local girl) and Eric who meet and fall in love, however fairly early on in their relationship I think I'm going to have him enlist after Pearl Harbor and I want him to be shipped out to war, and unfortunately Eric never comes back. My questions are... 1) I need him to go to war, but I'm not sure what this would look like. If he enlists after Pearl Harbor, how long would it take to go through training, etc. and then actually get shipped out? (I want them to live in Iowa - I don't know if that's helpful information or not). Would he have a break before training and getting shipped out? And how often would he be able to write letters to her during training? 2) After he is sent to Europe, how often would he be able to write to her? And what kind of information would he be allowed to tell her? 3) If he proposed before he left, would she be informed of his death? Or would she have to find out from one of his family members? 4) What WOULD be told about his death? Regardless of who is informed, would they know where he died, or circumstances surrounding his death? Or would they just be given very basic information (i.e. your son/fiance was killed in action)? And would the body be sent back, or are there circumstances where that just wasn't possible? Sorry if my questions aren't detailed enough, but any information you can provide (or, if you just want to make stuff up for me like which infantry he is in or where he died that would be historically accurate) would be awesome because I don't want to be disrespectful in making stuff up. Thank you!

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pastmeetspresent — Sun, 23 Oct 2011 14:41:46 +0100

Does anybody know what the Gestapo(or the SS)'s protocols were on torture and extraction of information from prisoners? Thanks in advance.

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ahleeson — Thu, 27 Oct 2011 00:15:34 +0100

This is probably going to be my favorite thread. I'm looking for some guidance on life in eastern Romania before and during the Iasi pogrom (June 1941). I have a lot of factual information regarding Romania's role in the war and life for civilians in Western Europe, but if anyone has some knowledge about daily life in Eastern Europe that they'd like to share, it would be greatly appreciated.

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FluffDucklings — Thu, 27 Oct 2011 20:35:40 +0100

What was it like for a typical French farm family during the Occupation?

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DreamCreator — Sun, 30 Oct 2011 19:20:43 +0000

I love this thread! I can tell I will be frequenting it. I have a Nazi character, around 19 years of age. He is part of a group that searches my main character's house, finds my character and her family and Jewish friends hiding, and opens fire. Is he part of the Einsatzgruppen or SS? I find the lines a bit blurred. Also, this is set in Poland if it makes any difference, and I think the Nazi is later sent to work at a concentration camp, unless it doesn't make sense for a soldier to change jobs like that.

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Abitha — Mon, 31 Oct 2011 11:31:03 +0000

My research area is mainly British, specialising in women during WWII. I also have quite a bit of airfield knowledge, and some information pertaining to pilots etc in a more general sense than BoB. Mail me with your questions, and I'll check back here often!

Re: World War II classroom

Siouxxie — Tue, 01 Nov 2011 20:24:07 +0000

This is a fantastic resource! What happened to Coast Watchers (for instance, in the Solomons) who were captured by the Japanese? Would a civilian plantation owner, formerly of Spain, likely be accepted into the Australian "Ferdinand" program? i'm mainly concerned about his being Spanish, what with the fascist Franco in power in Spain.... Thanks.

Re: World War II classroom

RobertSnozers — Tue, 01 Nov 2011 20:24:18 +0000

Hi all. I'm not doing WW2 this time, but have some non-fiction stuff published on this era focussing mainly on British naval aviation so if this would be of any help, by all means let me know.

Re: World War II classroom

FrostAngel — Tue, 01 Nov 2011 22:36:03 +0000

You're probably going to see me a lot here- I'll try not to be too annoying. ^_^; Most of my novel takes place on the US home front, so that's what I'm really curious about. 1. How often, if ever, would a young lad in the US navy be able to send letters home? I don't know much on this specific topic, but I assume that, being out at sea, there wouldn't be many opportunities for mail service. 2. On average, how late would a teenage girl (16-18) be allowed to stay out with her friends? 3. How picky was the draft board about who they let into the army, navy, and air force at the beginning of the war? What could render someone ineligible for military service? One of my characters has glasses (but without them, still pretty okay vision)- would he be allowed in? 4. One of my characters is the richest of the rich in Boston. How much would the war affect him and his family economically?

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Zilven — Thu, 03 Nov 2011 20:02:14 +0000

Okay, I was wondering if there was a knowlegdeable person around who could help me a bit with terminology of the NSB (National Socialist Movement), I have already been reading up a lot about this, but I haven't found much about how this would affect families when a father is member of the movement, what jobs he could have within the movement and so on. What elementary schools would they attend, children movements and so on. For those who do wonder, my novel is about a woman who is married to a German and who is a member of the NSB, and they informally become separated during the WWII here in the Netherlands.

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FairytaleEnding — Fri, 04 Nov 2011 17:48:29 +0000

Wow! I love this thread! Just a couple of questions: - How long did bombings continue on Berlin in 1945? Did it last until the end of the war or did they stop earlier? - Did air raid sirens continue until the end of the war? If so, did people respond to them? Did they use the bunkers/air raid shelters or just stay indoors? - How long did it take for the Jews to return to Germany, specifically Berlin?

Re: World War II classroom

mathew1013 — Fri, 04 Nov 2011 21:21:24 +0000

do you know any minor battles that took place in france? my story has a unit of american soldiers and the end yp with the 9th regiment trying to defend a harbor which was a real historical event 11 days after they took normandy. but it'd really help if i had some minor events just to have more historical detail.

Re: World War II classroom

DictatorEuro — Sat, 05 Nov 2011 04:20:20 +0000

In the German army, if a Priest was drafted in as a Heerespfarrer, what sort o basic training would he have to go through if any? I assume he would have to go through the same as the men depending on situation. I also heard that they had some supplementary training specifically for chaplains (Fr. Tewes and Fr. Perau both make mention of it but do not elaborate in their books.) Would anyone know of what exactly this "supplemental" training was and what it entailed? I am also assuming that it was possible to be drafted in/ volunteer as a Pfarrer and not have to be brought in as a Saniteter first and then "promoted" to Pfarrer, is this assumption correct?

Re: World War II classroom

Liza.M — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 20:55:42 +0000

Okay, I'll hopefully bring this thread back to the main page, I'm finding it extremely useful. Since my knowledge of world war history is limited to igcse and as level, (my university dedicated far too much time of "world history" to Spanish and French kings), I'm finding it a little difficult to write about the second world war. My story is set in late 1939 early 1940 in some part of western Europe other than Germany, I might not even say in which country in the story as it doesn't really focus on that or on the war, but I find it hard to write without knowing the true setting. All I know is that it's in a somewhat hilly countryside, in a small town next or near a preferably large forest. Possibly Belgium or Luxembourg, if they fit. The story is about a man who used to take care of the forest, chasing poachers. My question: were all forests in western Europe completely overrun with soldiers at some point? I know the western front was quiet at the start, but what about later? Did something similar to a park warden or private caretaker exist at the time? And if someone happens to know something about this and wishes to share, how was daily life in those early years in the countryside of Luxembourg, Belgium and the Nederlands, even France, as in food restrictions, jobs, landowners, farms, soldiers, attitude, children... before and after occupation?? I know this is a big question but anything would help. I'm not going to be very specific in the story so I'm just trying to get a general feel for it and the high-school history books are not helping much. Thank you very much in advance!!

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vampyre_smiles — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 21:39:09 +0000

I posted this in its own thread but it might get a reply here: This is an odd question, especially since my novel isn't Historical (this time), but I need to know what it would mean to be polite just before and just after WW2 in Russia. Or what would be the biggest contrasts between polite then and there versus now in the US? Especially how would a guy be expected to act: around other guys, and around women in day-to-day situations? Preferably for someone growing up just outside Novgorod. I'm sorry that's vague. I can never seem to find much info about the area or how it would be different from other parts of Russia.

Re: World War II classroom

vampyre_smiles — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 11:50:14 +0000

GP: Thanks. I've been busy and hadn't had time to contact her today.

Re: World War II classroom

Chinikins — Thu, 10 Nov 2011 23:54:18 +0000

I just want to check and see if my series of events are reasonable. I have a section of my novel that takes place in Nice, France from 1942 - 1944. I'm under the impression that at the beginning of 1942, southern France was under Italian control. Would a Jewish family in 1942, Nice be subjected to wearing the yellow star/having the yellow star on their family owned store and other laws like, being unable to ride bikes, etc? And by 1943 (after Nazi Germany's come in) would it be reasonable to say that this Jewish family was moved to a ghetto that was subjected to selection/deporting Jews to camps elsewhere?

Re: World War II classroom

Plaid-K — Fri, 11 Nov 2011 05:07:39 +0000

I really enjoyed reading all the questions and responses! Here are mine: If you could point me towards... -Any Internet research/overviews on Americans stuck in Paris between June 1940, but before December 1941. -Any internet research/overviews on the OSS in Istanbul 1943ish? I've done some work that I could wikipedia on them, and I have books on order for research for after NaNo, but I"m trying to not make any "I need to rewrite the entire story" errors. And some fact-checking that's driving me nuts: - French Stars of David, did they read in French [Juif] or German [Juden] - Paris specifically. I swear I've seen both, and now I can find images of neither! - What WAS the passenger capacity of a Lysander? I have seen one and three. [apart from crew] I wrote with a Halifax, but the SOE discontinued using them in 42.... - What was in the buildings from 82-86, avenue Foch before the war/the Gestapo? Were they just Hotels Particulier? Thanks in advance for any help you can give. This is awesome.

Re: World War II classroom

Tesla.Ana — Fri, 11 Nov 2011 21:55:35 +0000

How did I miss this thread? I have a couple of questions concerning the Pacific Theatre: 1) What would be a Japanese soldier's options if he was on the verge of becoming a POW? I believe some committed suicide, but would he also be inclined to run and hide, or face his enemy head-on? 2) Where were African-American nurses usually stationed? (I know they worked in Black hospitals overseas, but what about POW camps? What kind of POWs did they usually tend to?) 3) Are there any diagrams of the uniforms for Japanese soldiers (infantry, I guess)? What about the contents of their packs? 4) What were the general living conditions of the Japanese "bases" in Japanese-held countries? (I'm not quite sure what the word is, but it was basically their temporary set-up). Sorry for any inaccuracies I may have (I wish I wasn't so ignorant on World War II history)

Re: World War II classroom

Chinikins — Sat, 12 Nov 2011 00:28:53 +0000

Could someone tell me what life was like for people in the Drancy camp in France? More specifically: Who was sent their? Did women and men live separately, or were families put together? What did the rooms look like? Just a bunch of stacked beds? Or were their cupboards, tables, etc? What did they eat? What sort of labor did they have to do? Thanks!

Re: World War II classroom

ladyalicia — Sat, 12 Nov 2011 04:42:36 +0000

I am very grateful for this thread because I need help regarding a man from the Luftwaffe who has wandered into my story or rather he's been washed up on the beach beside the lighthouse that my main character (Erica) is staying at with my other main character (Simon) who is a doctor and took over the position of lighthouse keeper 3 to 5 years before this. This as yet unnamed German man seems to want to stick around in my story and I'm happy for him to stay because he has a passion for flying that he shares with Erica, who is flyer along the lines of Amy Johnson. My problem is that I know nothing of my new character's background or the circumstances around his accident and though I'm assuming he was shot out of the air at some point during either the Battle of Britain (during which there were a lot of air-sea rescues going on) or the Blitz (which would fit in more with the planned dating of my story in the autumn and winter of 1940). What might my two English characters expect to happen if they are discovered looking after and befriending an injured German? What happened with lighthouses during the blackout? Did they run at lower power or during restricted hours or were they completely shut down? Thank you for any answers you can give me (and if any of my questions don't entirely make sense, it's very late, I'm overtired, nanowrimo is eating my brain and World War II has never looked more interesting to me than it does right now)

Re: World War II classroom

FairytaleEnding — Sat, 12 Nov 2011 08:21:21 +0000

Just a quick question: Did children of the Nazis that were convicted get to visit their parents' in prison? And if so, for how long/often?

Re: World War II classroom

svetkar — Fri, 18 Nov 2011 06:08:52 +0000

A quick plausibility check: My characters need to procure food or alcohol to use as a bribe. It's late March- early to mid-April in 1945 Berlin. Would it be plausible for them to barter firearms for foodstuffs or schnapps/wine in the black market? History books say that German military suffered at the time from shortage of weapons except for Panzerfausts. They didn't have enough firearms to issue to Volkssturm, and the regular Wehrmacht units were under-armed. At the same time, there had to be a lot of firearms floating around outside of military units and depots, simply because of the war situation. That brings a second question: Could a handgun like a Walther, Luger (not manufactured at the time but still in use), Browning or Vis/Radom (Polish) fetch a good value in foodstuffs in early 1945 Berlin? Thanks a lot!

Re: World War II classroom

Realmer06 — Fri, 18 Nov 2011 20:19:44 +0000

I have a couple of questions about the US Army Nurse Corps: -Could anyone sign up or would she need to have medical training prior? -How old did a girl have to be to sign up and what kind of training would she have received? -What exactly were the field hospitals able to do? I know MASH units weren't used until the Korean War, but did field hospitals have similar practices such as performing surgeries on the injured soldiers? -How many field hospitals were set up around the front (approximation is fine)?

Re: World War II classroom

DancesWithWritersBlock — Mon, 21 Nov 2011 20:46:26 +0000

Okay, so I have always been fascinated with WW2 and an idea has recently formed in my head, but the problem is, I'm not sure it's quiet realistic for the times. I'm not sure if WW1 would be a better fit for the plot... It's about a seventeen year old French American (born and raised in New York for most of her life,) girl who's business monger father moves them to a villa he owns in Italy before the war. I need some REALLY good plot doctoring, lol, but my idea was that her father makes some kind of deal with the Italian government before the soldiers invade, that leaves her, and her French born mother (presumed to be part of the French resistance) separated from each other. But part of her fathers deal was that they would NOT be held in a contraction camp, but rather be 'spared,' and considered a POW servant in the house of an Italian General; where she meets and quiet possibly falls for his youngest son, a bitter ex-soldier (is that even a word? lol) who was wounded in battle... The entire premise is about the two; but my dilemma is, I'm not sure if that would REALISTICALLY happen. How did the Italians treat female POW? Especially Americans? Do you think women where treated with more 'mercy,' in the first world war as opposed to the second? Any thoughts?....

Re: World War II classroom

FairytaleEnding — Tue, 22 Nov 2011 15:31:55 +0000

Okay, a couple of questions crucial to my plot: So far, The characters have been hiding in a private bunker in Berlin for a while as the Battle of Berlin rages on outside. It's late April/early May at the moment (before the war ends). Several of the people form a plan to escape Berlin with the orphaned children that are hiding in the bunker. The characters who leave are (all Germans): - a fourteen year old girl - a twelve year old boy - a nine year old boy - a six year old girl (a few weeks shy of her seventh birthday) - a four year old girl - a sixty year old woman - a nineteen year old man, former Nazi secretary - a seventy year old man, previously worked for the SS guarding the food warehouses - a dog My questions are: Would it be safer/easier for them to go to British or American territory? How did the troops check the people who were entering their territory? What was life like in the occupied territories?

Re: World War II classroom

DancesWithWritersBlock — Wed, 23 Nov 2011 00:54:53 +0000

Okay hello again... I actually have another set of questions =) I'll probably be back for a couple times, or at least until I get the plot to this ANNOYING idea straight. First question, what where the Germans views on people who where interracial? For example, Italian mother German father? Would he be treated as any other soldier in Germany? Or would he not be a part of the Nazis party in the first place due to the fact he wasn't pure German? Second question, how where Korean American soldiers who where already in the American air force before the war treated? And would it be possible that he would be stationed at Pearl Harbor during the bombing? Also how would most Americans react if he was engaged to a Caucasian girl? Thanks a bunch for all future help... :)

Re: World War II classroom

Tally-san — Fri, 25 Nov 2011 01:59:25 +0000

This is a fantastically useful thread! I just spent ages reading down through all the questions and answers. Thanks for starting it! A large part of my story is set in occupied Japan around 1948-49. My two main characters are an American soldier stationed in Tokyo and a British-educated Japanese girl working as a translator. Although I'm really interested in both Japan and World War Two and know a fair amount about both, I've found that Japanese occupation is really difficult to research. If anyone could give me any details about everyday life there - either urban or rural - then that would be massively appreciated, but more specifically, I have two questions. 1) There were (and are) people in Japan who survived both nuclear bombings. But the thing is, Hiroshima and Nagasaki are a reasonable distance apart and there were only three days in between the two bombings. How would people have got from Hiroshima to Nagasaki in such a short time? I'm assuming there was no train station or anything running after an atomic bomb. Am I wrong in this? 2) How would a twenty-three-year-old Japanese girl live at that time? She's based in Tokyo and has no family - she graduated from university about the time Japan surrendered and lost everything. How would she survive and make a living for herself? Also, about two years into the occupation she finds herself a job translating documents and interpreting for the US military. She was British-educated and speaks fluent English, but would never think to actually submit an application or anything. How could she plausibly be recruited? Thank you so much!

Re: World War II classroom

svetkar — Sat, 26 Nov 2011 23:39:28 +0000

Another plausibility check re: black markets in Berlin in mid-to-late May 1945. After the capitulation of Germany on May 8, 1945, the wild rampage of the Soviet troops in the city somewhat subsided, and, thanks to the actions of the Commandant of Berlin, Colonel General Berzarin, the municipal services and essential business operations were being restored. One of the major undertakings was commandeering the civilians to remove the rubble from the streets and dismantle the ruins. Naturally, the teams of workers, mostly women, would dig out all sorts of household items from the ruins - knickknacks, utensils, furnishings, sometimes in a decent condition. Would it be typical for Berliners to take such things to a black market to trade with the Soviet troops for food and essentials in May 1945? Also, what would be the most widely known black market spots in North Berlin (Tegel-Reinickendorf-Borsigwalde area)? Thanks a lot!

Re: World War II classroom

Tesla.Ana — Thu, 01 Dec 2011 21:09:46 +0000

If a kamikaze pilot misses his mark and crashes into the Pacific, what are the chances of him surviving? He will take evasive action to lower his chances of death (he is notorious for returning from his flights a few times but not enough to be killed) and try to minimize injury/burns. If he were to survive, what injuries would he sustain?

Re: World War II classroom

DancesWithWritersBlock — Tue, 13 Dec 2011 04:32:51 +0000

Hello! I'm back again! Said I would. Anyway, I have a couple more questions. Did the Germans occupy France? If so, who would be there? Why? What parts of France? Did the Italians also have a part in this? And what are the chances of a young American girl looking for her French mother who is part of the resistance being caught? Is there anyway she could get 'behind enemy lines,' per say, to get information on her mother who is missing? Would she be able to somehow obtain a military job acting as a spy perhaps? What would women's jobs being during WWII on both the Axis and Allied powers sides? I know I probably sound outlandish, haha, but I swear there is a really good plot idea behind all these questions. Thanks again. :)

Re: World War II classroom

DancesWithWritersBlock — Tue, 13 Dec 2011 16:32:57 +0000

Okay, thanks for the help. *sighs* I definatly have my work cut out for me...

Re: World War II classroom

svetkar — Wed, 14 Dec 2011 07:34:36 +0000

As I edited my NaNo novel, a new question popped up: Was it possible for Berliners to make phone calls to other cities (Leipzig) from their homes in June 1945? I know that the local phone service worked in Berlin even during the Battle of Berlin, although it was spotty. But I can't find anything definite about long-distance calls in June 1945. I need to know it for sure since I have a major plot twist that depends on it. In Berlin someone overhears my MC's phone conversation with his family in Leipzig, misinterprets it and a big relationship drama ensues. Thanks a lot!

Re: World War II classroom

svetkar — Thu, 22 Dec 2011 22:40:06 +0000

Was it common for farmers and hunters to have shotguns in Germany and Austria in the first half of 20th century? I mention shotguns in an episode describing a Volkssturm battalion in Vienna. There's also a bunch of rural men from the mountain borderlands, who presumably bring their hunting rifles and shotguns. On a second reading I wondered if shotguns were as common in Germany/Austria as in the Soviet Union. Thanks a lot!

Re: World War II classroom

svetkar — Wed, 28 Dec 2011 00:19:13 +0000

Nike: Could you confirm if you meant Austria (Österreich) or Australia (Australien) in your post? I meant Austria (Österreich) in my post. It's interesting that there were no wild wolves and bears in Germany by 1930's. However, the population density of 2.5 people/sq. km. is rather odd for Austria, although it would be valid for Australia. Thanks a lot!

Re: World War II classroom

Nike Lennard — Wed, 28 Dec 2011 15:21:47 +0000

Oh sorry, it's my fault and indeed I read Australia (Australien). So back Austria (Österreich): As I know, the austrian law was quite different and hunting was allowed on ones own ground (it only has to have a minimum size) and nearly everyone (except jews and other "unreliable" persons) were allowd to own weapons to defend their homes and themselves. And yes, Austria isn't that populated as Germany. But they have no great wildernesses as well (except the High Alpes) and I doubt very much, that there were much people who had to hunt to survive. Bears were extinct in the middle of the 19th century, wolfes since the beginning of the 20th century (The recent populations are newly immigrated either from southeast or southwest europa).

Re: World War II classroom

TheHappyExplosionist — Sat, 31 Dec 2011 03:36:53 +0000

Hello everyone! I know it's kind of late for this, but I was wondering if someone could help me with some trouble I've been having researching a short story set during Operation Weserübung (April 1940). Specifically, the attack on Narvik, Norway. I've been looking around for information for about nine months and found almost nothing, so pretty much anything is helpful. First of all, how did the Germans approach Narvik? Did they encounter any sort of resistance? Which ships and U-boats where there? How many of them sunk and how many were damaged? What would it be like for soldiers aboard the U-boats? How diffrent would the boats, chain of command, ect. be from the U-boats that appeared in 1942-ish? Or from Soviet submarines? What was the average age for seamen at this point in the war? Where were the German naval ports, and how long would a man have been on a boat by the time they reached Narvik? Thanks in advance for any help!

Re: World War II classroom

C.K. Lee — Sat, 07 Jan 2012 09:22:44 +0000

I know nanowrimo has been over for a while but from reading this forum I have found that you guys seem to know the best resources, so I have a few questions. Just so you can kind of get a general idea of where I'm going with this, the first part of the story takes place in Poland (in a fictional city) in 1939. My protagonist is in the military and is sent there at the start of the war.He is to help establish the ghetto there and then eventually have all of the Jews sent to concentration and extermination camps. While there he lives with a random family in their appartment. 1. Do you know of any accounts of what life was like having to live with a soldier during this time? 2. Eventually I would like for the mc to be working in a concentration camp (several years after the ghettos are opened, but he is still in Poland) but I was not sure if a transfer from the ghettos to a camp was even factual? 3. I've read a lot of sources that have the rankings in the German military during WWII, however the descriptions of what each means has remained fairly unclear to me. Do you know of any sources that could possibly break down the German military rankings into the American equivelant, just so I have a better understanding? Thanks so much!

Re: World War II classroom

Nike Lennard — Fri, 13 Jan 2012 19:26:23 +0000

As a general ressource: The german magazin 'spiegel-online' features a category called 'Zeitzeugen' (contemporary witnesses). It's not only WK II but a lot. You'll find photos as well as reports. So it's worth to cast a look. If you don't understand German, the google translator is a big help.

Re: World War II classroom

Liza.M — Sat, 21 Jan 2012 18:28:54 +0000

I'm back to this great forum with another question. How where border crossings in Western Europe in late 1941? Were they even possible (I mean through regular borders and not running through the woods)? To be more specific, crossing from Spain into Southern France, and from France north to Belgium. Say, if the person is Dutch? I'm wondering about papers needed and that sort of thing but I really have no idea if it could even be done the regular way, or even illegally. Where those borders heavily guarded? Where there walls, in parts or all along? What nationality would the those guarding the crossings in the Belgium/France border would be? What would be need or which nationality would have the least trouble crossing if it could be done? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Re: World War II classroom

swallowfeather — Sat, 21 Jan 2012 19:41:38 +0000

Oh, oh, thank you for being here. I had forgotten I could come here with my questions, and boy do I have 'em. I need to know about the forging of documents in Vichy France. I'm writing during the time when the networks for this stuff were still being set up for the most part, the summer and fall of 1941. Ideally, I'd love to know what the full set of necessary documents included and how the forgery process worked. (Was it possible to reproduce certain documents, or was it necessary to steal "blanks"? Was there a stamp you had to imitate, and how was it done?) That seems like asking a lot though. Besides, I'm sure different forgers had different methods. So, whatever details you know, I'll be grateful. I also have a specific situation in which an American who works for the Quaker aid agency in Marseille is trying to obtain a full set of forged papers for a forty-year-old German Jewish woman so that she can use someone else's misprinted visa to emigrate to the U.S. (The date of birth is misprinted, so the young woman can't use the visa herself.) The person the visa was intended for is Irish, so he has to turn this lady into an Irishwoman. (She will probably have to pretend to be mute!) This man is NOT my point-of-view character, nor is the Jewish woman, so I do not need all the details; what I mostly need to know is, how long would it take, what would be the obstacles, and how much would it cost? I have other questions, some of them in that fairly thorny area of "how much did people really know?" that can be pretty hard to answer, but I'd be interested in your take. Not all at once, though I'll save 'em. Thanks very much!

Re: World War II classroom

little-nel — Sat, 03 Mar 2012 17:59:27 +0000

Can anyone give me details about life as a British prisoner of war in a German camp? I heard that some British soldiers killed themselves because they were so ashamed, is that true?

Re: World War II classroom

Maracate — Sat, 31 Mar 2012 05:27:51 +0100

I have a question about Operation Market Garden and POWs? See, I have a character who's in the 101st Airborne. He needs to get taken prisoner by the Axis powers around the end of the war, and so Market Garden seems like that might be a plausible time for him to get captured. But I can't find any records of Americans being taken prisoner during it; all I can find are British. So I was just wondering if it was at all plausible for him to get taken, or when a better time would be? He just needs to get through D-Day.

Re: World War II classroom

glass_box — Tue, 10 Apr 2012 18:14:51 +0100

Canadians before the Normandy landings. How many troops, names of the divisions/regiments/what have you, which countries they were in and how they moved across the continent. From what I've read the Canadians largely remained in Britain until the Sicily Campaign, but any other information would be great! Also, regarding the RCAF - were they seperated from their fellow Canadians? By which I mean, did pilots sort of serve wherever they were needed at the time rather than sticking around with the infantry? Hopefully that's specific enough... If not I can try to narrow it down. I'm also wondering how much the Second World War affected Canadian society. Was the whole push for independence from the Crown done with during the South African and First World Wars, or did WW2 introduce further changes (regarding nationalism, but also life in general - for example, did internment continue after the war? How hostile would the Canadian public have been towards these 'enemies' in the years following?). I know this covers a ton of different topics but anything you can offer would be very helpful!

Re: World War II classroom

Awilla_The_Hun — Fri, 27 Apr 2012 01:12:30 +0100

How would a diplomatic conference, such as Munich or Potsdam, have been conducted? What was the procedure involved? What sort of personnel-both in terms of diplomats, advisors etc, and servants-would have turned up?

Re: World War II classroom

DictatorEuro — Sun, 06 May 2012 17:39:53 +0100

Aight, my specific question pertains to the SS-Sonderbataillon Dirlewanger, not the 36th yet, as it takes place between 1940 and mid 1941. but I'm curious as how someone who was in the German paw system (aka in jail/in a camp) would get into this unit aka what they would have to do what qualifications (if any) would be taken and what would make them get rejected. and lastly, I'm curious if there was any way for them to be deemed "cured" and be transferred out to another unit. I want to assume this is true since I have read about men being released from this unit on being "cured" (not dissertion) but I havent found anything about being "cured" and then transferring somewhere else. you guys got anything? :3 thanks!

Re: World War II classroom

Nightfoot — Mon, 07 May 2012 06:04:50 +0100

I have a few questions. My story is set in a boarding school in Ireland from 1940-1945. The school is located in southwest Ireland, in Country Cork. 1. Did Ireland have blackouts? I've seen some sources say they did and others they didn't, and I'm wondering if the blackout would have only been in the east. 2. How long would the delay between an event happening and it being announced on the radio be? For example, how long after Pearl Harbour happening would civilians in Ireland learn that the US was entering the war? 3. How much specific information about the Blitz would be available? Would newspapers/the radio say which specific neighbourhoods or buildings had been bombed? 4. How easy would travel between the UK and Ireland be for civilians?

Re: World War II classroom

DictatorEuro — Fri, 11 May 2012 22:16:53 +0100

Aight! Another question, my friend wants to know if an American Medic of the 101st paratroopers would have carried a weapon and if they did not would they at least carry ammo?

Re: World War II classroom

goldenhedgehog — Sat, 22 Oct 2011 19:46:24 +0100

I have two questions: What would the diet of an evacuated child consist of if they were not too well off and what would a naval officer patrolling the Dover waters and during Dunkirk?

Re: World War II classroom

RachelHumphreys — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 21:53:06 +0000

Just brainstorming an idea at the moment so I will be as specific as I can! What was the general attitude toward pregnant Jewish women in Europe during WW2? What was the Nazi party/Gestapo/SS view? The non-Jewish German citizen? What about other Jewish people? Were they viewed especially negatively or was there anything special about their situation? Was there a significant drop in Jewish birth rates in the 1930's? And if she was taken by the Gestapo, would a pregnant woman typically be executed simply for being pregnant? This is more like 10 questions I know, but I'm just trying to get the most basic information down right now, so anything would help!

Re: World War II classroom

KeithNelson — Tue, 29 Nov 2011 19:28:03 +0000

Question- what evidence is there that Roosevelt, if any evidence, that he knew about Pearl Harbor ahead of time (which I don't belive.)

Re: World War II classroom

KeithNelson — Fri, 02 Dec 2011 14:24:17 +0000

Will you be continung this thread, even though NaNo is over?

Re: World War II classroom

autumnrabbits — Thu, 29 Dec 2011 01:54:16 +0000

Okay, I've got a few questions, hope you can help me. - How long would it take to cross the Atlantic from England to the US in 1943 by boat? -How easy was it to cross borders during the war in the countries around Germany, etc.? -What kind of food did they eat in the camps, especially Treblinka? -This doesn't really have to do with the war, but how much would an apartment in NYC cost per month? -And also what sort of jobs would be available for a nineteen year old girl in NYC about 1944? Thanks for any help you can give. I really appreciate it!

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Thu, 13 Oct 2011 01:06:01 +0100

In mid 1941 the German economy was still working pretty normally, and the effects of attacking Russia had yet to be seen. Because of that, the French economy was still working pretty well too. In occupied France, things wouldn't have changed all that much from pre-war times. Germans did raid the country's stock of wines, and the drafting of forced laborers was beginning, but for the most part the French just continued on. There was some dislocation as the ports were being rebuilt into military bases, and along the border with Germany the construction of the Siegfried Line...aka the West Wall...was underway, but French agriculture remained pretty much "uncontrolled" and crops were grown and sold as before. The German occupation was largely centered along the channel and in the larger cities, although local officials in villages were responsible for enforcing "German laws." At that time, the Jews were largely being left alone although some local officials were working on deportations at that time. So...food would be largely the same as before, with limited rationing in effect. The further away from the cities you get, the more that would be true. Paris might have rationed things where a farming village would operate in "subsistence mode" much as they did before, growing their own food and trading it back and forth amongst the residents.

Re: World War II classroom

dancer_kirsten — Fri, 14 Oct 2011 13:56:49 +0100

In 1941 situation in most western countries was still pretty okay. There was rationing (I have Dutch woman's magazines from 1939, 1940 and 1941. The Germans prohibited household magazines in December 1941 and the first edition after that was in May 1946, I have that issue too) but on the whole, as long as you didn't need a dozen eggs for a recipe, you could still be fine food-wise. It only got worse in 1944 and 1945 really, when the whole war began to go pear-shaped for Germany.

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Thu, 13 Oct 2011 00:58:37 +0100

Ah, a relatively easy one. Prior to the start of the war, most (more then 50%) people living in cities learned to drive to some degree. Car ownership was still low, but driving skills were sometimes required for work, unrelated to driving your own car. As the military became more and more motorized, soldiers also learned. However, remember that the Wehrmacht was not highly mechanized and horses were still in common use, just not as "cavalry" animals. There were horse-drawn artillery units right up to the end, and horse transport was not remotely rare. The troops at Stalingrad were largely horse-mobile beyond walking, and only tanks and some trucks were in use otherwise. In the more rural areas, driving was not common and horses were still the primary conveyance for many. In the smaller villages, an automobile might be a real rarity. Hitler built the autobahns, but most people would never use them. He also created the "lay away" program for early Volkswagens...literally the People's Car...but they were never delivered to the people. There were some built, and they ended up being military vehicles. Sometime around early 1943, as a part of the Total War program, all civilian cars were put into storage. Their batteries and tires were taken for war needs, and nobody could purchase gas anyway. In the cities that wasn't a big problem mainly because there was a pretty good public transit system until the bombing raids destroyed it. In the rural areas, people reverted to horses...or had never left them, and life pretty much went on. The Americans "captured" many very good automobiles, most in great shape and lightly used during their advance into Germany proper. The Russians probably did to, but simply destroyed them since they largely relied upon trucks supplied by the Americans (oddly, mostly Studebakers) and their troops traveled by cart using horses or whatever was available. There's a great story, most likely accurate, of a squad doing into battle by hopping off their ox cart and charging the line. In short, your general idea is quite likely, and not a stretch.

Re: World War II classroom

Antonia_Tiger — Thu, 13 Oct 2011 21:14:10 +0100

I don't have a direct figure, but this table is for 1939. Population in ( millions) Motor Vehicles in (millions) P:MV* France 42.0 1.8 23.3:1 Germany 75.0 2.0 37.5:1 Great Britain 48.0 1.5 32.0:1 Italy 39.0 0.3 130.0:1 United States 132.0 30.0 4.4:1 The British Army managed to have a totally motorised army in France in 1940. The French Army had more motor vehicles than the German Army. But the Germans concentrated what they did have. The British Army got a lot of vehicles from American sources during the war, and had the chance to train drivers in 1942 and 1943. But it was really only during the war that British farmers stopped using horses. Fuel oil needed less shipping space than the food which might have been grown on the land needed to feed horses. These figures are for all motor vehicles.

Re: World War II classroom

MargoMcP — Tue, 18 Oct 2011 17:57:07 +0100

Check this out, a driver's award:

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Thu, 13 Oct 2011 04:55:14 +0100

Somehow that sounds exactly like what the Soviets would do. They were, amongst other things, very conscious of rank and status.

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Thu, 13 Oct 2011 20:50:19 +0100

Welcome to the classroom, and thanks for volunteering your assistance. The greatest problem with the Holocaust is that people fail to understand the shift that took place around 1900, when religious antisemitism morphed into racial antisemitism. While the difference might appear to be subtle, the fact is that it changed Everything from that point forward and led directly to the Final Solution. Glad to have you aboard.

Re: World War II classroom

Alirtle — Fri, 28 Oct 2011 15:59:39 +0100

Sophia...after the war I understand there was a repatriation of children kidnapped or part of the Lebensborn Program. Would a child moved from Norway to Germany, fathered by a German soldier, be returned to the natural mother in Norway after being raised by a German family? What sort of paper work would the child have? Would she have faked documents.? (My heroine is searching for her unknown Norsegian roots but has very few leads...........I would like her to find some old documents giving clues to her background.

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Fri, 14 Oct 2011 03:04:18 +0100

Thanks for joining us. Welcome.

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Fri, 14 Oct 2011 07:29:46 +0100

Welcome. Glad you joined us. Sometimes we even have cookies.

Re: World War II classroom

aminebabe — Sun, 16 Oct 2011 13:40:39 +0100

*high fives Battle of Britain research* Can also help with this :DDD

Re: World War II classroom

Zilven — Thu, 03 Nov 2011 19:54:06 +0000

I might need your help Kirsten. My novel is set in the Eastern Part of the Netherlands starting at August 1941 and I get frequently stumped by the most common things like what would the have for kitchen appliances, how would they name this and that. Ect.

Re: World War II classroom

dancer_kirsten — Sun, 16 Oct 2011 16:11:39 +0100

The 'everyday' French person would not have driven cars, unlike (possibly) the US, cars were not common for ordinary working people to have till the 1960s. http://www.peugeot.com/en/history/a-century-of-models/1940-1950.aspx http://www.ehow.com/info_10008687_mini-cars-1940s-1950s.html

Re: WWII "Technicians"?

sschwarz — Sun, 16 Oct 2011 22:36:02 +0100

From what I've seen, it was sort of a way of recognizing someone who had useful abilities but wasn't considered leader material. The way I see it, it was a rank that showed you were valuable to your outfit but weren't commanding.

Re: WWII "Technicians"?

Grand Poobah — Mon, 17 Oct 2011 08:16:46 +0100

in a general sense, a T rating involved non-combat positions. Think of the interpreter in Saving Private Ryan. He has a T rating, because of his linguist skills, but he's clearly not a combat soldier. Mechanics, Cooks, and a bunch of other MOS were the same, and to some degree, still are. A SGT in the motor pool may be a very capable leader within his skill set, but utterly useless carrying a rifle. T isn't a measure of leadership, it's a mark that means "focused on a specific (usually non-combat) specialty.

Re: World War II classroom

svetkar — Sun, 16 Oct 2011 20:47:33 +0100

"A War of Nerves: Soldiers and Psychiatrists in the Twentieth Century" by Ben Shephard is a very good source. It covers PTSD treatments, psychiatric hospitals and medical theories in the first half of 20th century extensively, chiefly British and American sides.

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Mon, 17 Oct 2011 08:18:49 +0100

Depending upon your time frame, be very careful using PTSD as a term. It was not in common usage prior to Vietnam, and not even quite then. "Combat Fatigue" and other similar terms were in use, even if they, more or less, described the same set of symptoms.

Re: World War II classroom

Nereti — Mon, 17 Oct 2011 00:18:57 +0100

I second this - a really useful book. I used it primarily for the WW1 content.

Re: World War II classroom

FionaJL — Mon, 17 Oct 2011 11:55:29 +0100

Aha, now this is useful to know, thank you! A cursory search says there's a copy floating around the university library somewhere, I'll have to see if I can track it down.

Re: WWII "Technicians"?

keystrokegraffiti — Mon, 17 Oct 2011 00:01:34 +0100

Thanks for the help!

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Mon, 17 Oct 2011 08:21:18 +0100

The answer depends upon where you are. In the cities, such as Paris, there were troops stationed there, and in some cases a fairly large contingent from the Gestapo. In the countryside, much less so, and some French farmers in rural areas might not see a German for months. The civilian authorities were often co-opted and served as proxies, willingly applying German policies and "enjoying" their new-found authority to basically brutalize the civilian population. However, that varied widely from place to place.

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Mon, 17 Oct 2011 08:24:55 +0100

The second question (sorry, I missed it in the first reading).... While Paris was a very progressive and permissive city in the 20's...one of the three great "sin cities" it was much less so when the war began. Most homosexuality either went underground or was driven there. A lot of the "artists" and others took off for other places. French society became much more straight-laced. There are a few cases of people being sent to the camps wearing the pink triangle, but those were exceptions for the most part. Later in the war, the occupation forces went after the Jews, and would sweep up what else they found, but it wasn't a concerted effort.

Re: WWII "Technicians"?

keystrokegraffiti — Wed, 19 Oct 2011 16:49:44 +0100

Really? This is going to be a really bad source to get information, I know, but I was reading the biographies (via Wikipedia) of the -real- people in the 101st Airborne behind the characters in the movie "Band of Brothers", and a lot of them are listed as Technicians. They saw a lot of combat, from what I've gathered. I'm confused now.

Re: World War II classroom

FionaJL — Mon, 17 Oct 2011 11:58:52 +0100

Yes, I wondered about that. I know the terminology has changed so much in the last century, it's something I don't know very much about and need to know a lot more about before I can write about it properly. Thanks for the heads up! I'll see what references I can find to combat fatigue. I want to compare and contrast with shellshock a bit - I know they overlap, but I don't know how far, and also that shellshock seems to be a bit more of a WWI/trenches term? I think an afternoon or four in the library is in order here, I'm rather dredging the depths of GCSE history as it is!

Re: World War II classroom

Nereti — Mon, 17 Oct 2011 14:41:39 +0100

That book deals with all the different terminology, so it should answer your questions. Shellshock is basically PTSD but when it first occured they thought it was a physical effect of being exposed to shells - they'd never before had a war with so much PTSD and heavy artillery so it was a logical conclusion to make. Later in the war they disliked using the term shellshock because they thought it encouraged people to act in a certain way (either consciously or not) so people were diagnosed NYDN - 'not yet diagnosed nervous'. 'Neurasthenia' was the other common diagnosis.

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Mon, 17 Oct 2011 19:50:16 +0100

Although it's a gross over-simplification, the usage goes like this. The British used the term Shell Shock The Americans used the term Combat Fatigue Neither of those terms came from clinical descriptions initially, however, they both described things we would now lump into PTSD. They might include hidden physical damage, such as concussive effects to the brain, but manifest themselves in multiple ways. In short, the effects of combat ain't fun. Been there.

Re: Jazz in occupied Holland

Grand Poobah — Mon, 17 Oct 2011 19:58:30 +0100

I can only accurately give a partial answer. Hopefully others can join in. For the most part, occupied countries were left alone socially unless it directly impinged upon something the Nazis wanted. In short, life pretty much "just went on." However, that said, some music was banned, and if it was played it went underground. American Jazz, which was (sorry for the terms but they're accurate) was described as "N**** Kike music." Public performance would have been banned, which is not to say it didn't happen. Private playing of phonograph records likely wouldn't be noticed. The enforcement of that sort of thing was very uneven. It depended upon the enthusiasm of the local Nazi leadership or Gestapo. So, in one town it might be "tolerated" while in another it might be squashed. Bigger cities, ironically, were more regulated, simply because there were more German officials about. However, it is also true that bigger cities had more places to hide stuff. Typical punishment might be closing a place...or breaking it up. Musicians might be arrested, and punishment was anything from being severely beaten all the way up to bodies dumped in a canal. Holland was somewhat similar to Denmark in that the civilian population was, more or less, uniformly hostile to the occupiers but just carried on by trying to ignore them as much as possible. True collaborators were limited in numbers.

Re: Jazz in occupied Holland

Gadifere — Tue, 18 Oct 2011 18:44:33 +0100

Thank you for your answer. This confirms my suspicion that I still have a lot of research to do on this subject. I probably need to put my story as much in the beginning of the war as possible in order to have a more lenient government when it comes to jazz music. I know for a fact that one band playing American music, the Ramblers, performed during the entire war. They even performed on Nazi party gatherings, as they were very popular in the Netherlands. They did have to change their English name into a Dutch one, kick out the Jewish members, and probably were only allowed to perform songs in Dutch or German. So yes, I think it would be interesting to look up how far the crack down on musicians went in the Netherlands. If it was even as bad over here as you describe, I don't know. Great food for thought though. If there's anyone who can recommend a book or website, please let me know.

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Tue, 18 Oct 2011 03:14:24 +0100

Assuming you want all this to happen, there are easy ways to work around the confusion. First, you're correct that records like that, and even the officialdom required to create and keep them, was a complete disaster in the immediate post-war period. Frankly, the Russians didn't much care. Germans probably did, simply because they are completely fascinated with keeping records. Oh well. Now, your Ostarbeiterin would likely have been "discovered" eventually, and, as you observe, marked for "repatriation" when the forced resettlement occurred. So, what to do. First, I'd suggest that your characters attempt to get it official, and are told "come back some other time...we don't much care...we've got other things to worry about...buzz off!" They might be able to find some remaining local official or Pfarrar who would perform the service if they really really wanted one. Otherwise, they just move in together and carry on. Second, I'd suggest she "lose her card" in the final days of battle. "I left it at home and the shelling destroyed my flat" or "The whole block was burned down and I was lucky to get out alive." The story was real enough that people regularly told it and "got away with it." The first time this is likely to come up is when the Russians issued ration cards, so...she could easily present her "German" name and it would likely fly. Somebody might ask for a birth certificate or whatever, but her answer could be the same. As long as her German language skills were adequate, they'd probably give her the card and move along. The only real danger would be that she couldn't come up with some plausible story about her background, so she'd need to make up a legend of some sort...where she was born, what she's been doing, and such. In the Russian Zone she's not going to be subject to the Fragenbogen, so she's off the hook for that, and most women were expected to fill one out anyway. I think any remotely plausible ploy would work, both for your story and in real life. Things were "really confused" in that time.

Re: World War II classroom

svetkar — Tue, 18 Oct 2011 08:09:48 +0100

@ Grand Poobah Thank you for helpful suggestions, especially this: [quote] First, I'd suggest that your characters attempt to get it official, and are told "come back some other time...we don't much care...we've got other things to worry about...buzz off!" They might be able to find some remaining local official or Pfarrar who would perform the service if they really really wanted one. Otherwise, they just move in together and carry on. [/quote] I think I'll go the route of finding a more flexible official and bribing him with food after being kicked out from somewhere else. With new papers for the girl the situation is more twisted. The girl doesn't want to pass for a German at that point. She doesn't want to be deported at the moment but still hopes to travel home, maybe even with her German husband, later when "everything settles down". She's young and naive, of course. So she'd use her Arbeitskarte, but will want to get a Kennkarte with her married name on it. If someone knows of a source or personal account describing the technicalities of issuing new papers at the time, it would help a lot. Papers play a significant part in my plot. Also if someone knows how offices registering marriages, births and deaths were named in Berlin at the time, it would be great. I need to put it in my story. The girl might not even apply for rations in the beginning, because the German man would want her to stay in hiding while Soviet troops run wild around the city. She would be near food anyway, because the Soviet authorities would order the bakery to resume work, and provide it with necessary supplies. Thanks again!

Re: World War II classroom

ladysusan — Wed, 19 Oct 2011 05:59:42 +0100

Just one thing - a mere church marriage wouldn't be considered valid by German law. It has to be registry office to make it legally binding - then as well as now. So while a local Pfarrer might want to help, and would also perform a wedding service, they'd still have to get married in a registry office. Of course they could get the priest / pastor to help them get one (by threatening to move in with each other anyway, maybe?).

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Wed, 19 Oct 2011 02:55:37 +0100

A couple of things. Yes, she would definitely stay in hiding, but even that might not be enough to save her. She'd clearly try once it became clear what was happening (which didn't take very long). Papers were a mess for a long time, and about the only official things were ration cards. The Russians didn't immediately recreate the "normal" governmental functions, so unless the local officials were still around and the Rathaus more or less intact, nothing was done. Eventually they got around to working on that, but it wasn't even functioning "normally" when the Americans took over their sector in July. In fact, there was some discussion about how it should be done...i.e. different "papers" for different occupation zones. The Americans largely left it to the Germans, and somehow they muddled through. If she/they really want to go back to visit her home at some point, they would be far better off as "Germans." She'd likely get trapped if she returned, especially if some nosy neighbor saw her, recognized her, and then reported her. With family she's probably safe, but beyond that...who knows. Throughout the Soviet bloc there were the usual informers. If it were me, I'd attempt the marriage paperwork. If they can get that, using forms that would require scratching out the "racially pure stuff" then I'd go for a new card...with her new name. If not, I'd still go for a new card and ignore the wedding (officially) and just say "we've been married for a while." No one will question the missing marriage license, and I'm betting they wouldn't even ask for a parish record or whatever.

Re: World War II classroom

MargoMcP — Tue, 18 Oct 2011 17:57:51 +0100

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/war_badges/heer/driver_badge.htm

Re: World War II classroom

svetkar — Thu, 20 Oct 2011 21:18:09 +0100

Thanks for giving me more ideas! The girl won't travel home for many, many years. It's only her intentions at the moment, and the reality will soon make her change her plans.

Re: World War II classroom

svetkar — Thu, 20 Oct 2011 21:15:17 +0100

Thank you for your comment. This information is very important for my story!

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Wed, 19 Oct 2011 07:44:07 +0100

Okay, some confusion I think. There was no basis for internment of Germans prior to the US entering the war, which didn't happen until Pearl Harbor, so "internment" in the 1940's would be pretty hard to explain. It's possible some German citizens were held, but it would most likely be sailors who ended up in the US, possibly ship-wrecked, and they were held to comply with neutrality regulations. There were some criminal prosecutions of the leadership in the American Nazi Party, and a few wonderful folks from the German-American Bund, but otherwise I'm not aware of anything specific. If you can tell me where you got that number, maybe I can dig in a different direction. Post Pearl Harbor the ethnic Japanese living on the West Coast were internned, even if they were US citizens. It was, ultimately, deemed un-Constitutional, but that was long after the fact. German immigrants, even those who had arrived shortly before the war weren't generally bothered much, although there were exceptions. The obvious difference was that the Japanese were "racially different" and they perpetrated a "sneak attack" on Pearl Harbor, which really raised emotions. The war with Germany, on the other hand, was much different, and, setting aside the "near state of war" in the Atlantic shipping lanes, nothing formal happened until Hitler actually declared war, and even then nothing happened on US soil. German-Americans enlisted in the military and were generally accepted without much to-do. Since Germans were part of the great immigration era, many were actually born in the US and held citizenship. Others did not, but they were still allowed in the military...since most any warm body was welcome. There had been some very public and notable Germans who arrived in 1939, forced out by the Nazis, so people were aware that it wasn't "all Germans" involved in the war. Einstein and numerous scientists along with a bunch of artists, writers, and others were seen as victims of the German government. This site has some basic info, although it's not the best. None of us in the German editors group has had the time to deal with it yet, but we'll get to it some day. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German-American_Bund

Re: World War II classroom

sschwarz — Thu, 20 Oct 2011 03:11:39 +0100

Sort of on the same line you are speaking of, I can say that some Americans grew to dislike Germans [in very extreme cases you had violence]. The incidents I know of mostly occurred in smaller towns and led to German-Americans to refrain from speaking the German language. These German-Americans often sought to be recognized as Americans and tried to fit in. It is around this time that you see any immigrants between World War I and the beginning of World War II, completely forsaking their German traditions. A lot of German-speaking households gave up the language fully around this time and put extra effort into American-izing themselves. Also, the German internment was absolutely nothing like the Japanese Internment. It occurred following Hitler's declaration of war on the United States and not prior to that.

Re: World War II classroom

Jaye M — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 00:14:11 +0100

There are two books you might find useful: "America's Invisible Gulag: A Biography of German American Internment & Exclusion in World War II: Memory & History" by Stephen Fox. and Max Friedman produced a study of how the U.S. picked up thousands of Germans in Latin America and brought them to internment camps in the U.S. It's called: "Nazis and Good Neighbors: The United States Campaign against the Germans of Latin America in World War II" Good luck w/ your research and writing!

Re: World War II classroom

pirateaika — Thu, 20 Oct 2011 02:35:48 +0100

I first learned of the possibility of some sort of (limited) internment by browsing Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_American_internment#World_War_II). From there I did some searching to try to substantiate the data, and found sites like (the unsubstantiated) http://www.foitimes.com/ and the German American Internee Coalition. I haven't tracked down the books cited as Wikipedia sources yet to check for reliability, though that's my next step. I don't really trust these sites, as they seem to be based less on research than on rumor and insinuation, but I am trying to get at the truth of the matter and to figure out where these allegations originated. I specifically want to know about German immigrants to the U.S., not captured soldiers or sailors. I will further explore the number of Germans (not born in the U.S.) in the U.S. military, and if there were any citizenship requirements. Knowing whether any U.S. soldiers in WWII served for Germany in WWI would be very helpful in its own way. Thanks for your help! If internment ends up being debunked through research, I'll refocus a bit without too much trouble, though I would be curious about any (perhaps isolated) cases of threats or violence against German immigrants in the U.S. later in the war years.

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Wed, 19 Oct 2011 21:25:01 +0100

Thanks for joining us. I do the Pacific Theatre also, but I'm not as strong on things inside Japan. Appreciate you're being willing to help others.

Re: WWII "Technicians"?

Grand Poobah — Thu, 20 Oct 2011 08:35:15 +0100

You will find exceptions, but usually there is a specific reason behind them. For example, using Band of Brothers as your base, there were two likely situations. First, to some degree paratroops were considered "specialists" even though they were clearly combat troops. Since they, along with the Rangers, were the (more or less) original "Special Forces" the regular Army didn't quite know what to do with them. Units were set aside for special missions while the regular command structure got frustrated because they saw units sitting around and wanted to use them. If you look at the period between D-Day and Market-Garden you'll find all sorts of plans to drop them, all of which got cancelled, usually because the ground troops had advanced far enough that the drop was no longer necessary. Given that Eisenhower didn't really like/trust Montgomery, there is a school of thought that says he accepted Market-Garden only because it allowed him to use the 82nd and 101st in an active role. In retrospect, the idea wasn't all that bad (it did have some serious problems) but Montgomery wasn't the man to lead it. The second exception was that some units couldn't justify the promotions based upon their TOE, so they used T promotions to move men up. In some cases, there were units largely composed of Corps and Sgts with very few privates. The longer the war went on, the more likely older men would all be E4 and above, and the lower ranks were limited to replacements. If I recall correctly, Bill Garnier (sp) was an E5-T, which would make no sense. However, he'd been in since the beginning, so he "should have been" at least an E5 unless he'd been busted a couple times. In short, during the war a lot of strange things happened, and not all the rules were followed all the time. Promotions, especially field promotions, weren't always granted in the "normal ways" and the wartime Army was different than the peacetime Army. As for your other comment: Wiki is a fine place to start, but a lousy place to stop. Many entries have been cleaned up, but many more have not. I know I don't have as much time as I'd like to work on my area of responsibility, and in the Project Germany section, we tend to jump to the ones which are "really bad" or the ones that have reported errors. Others we get when we can, and people write new ones all the time that we don't even know about. Some get fixed but don't stay fixed, and I don't know how many times I've had to clean up the confusion between the A4, which was the official designation for a German missile, and the V2, which is what it came to be called. Sigh! We've even locked that one more than once. Use wiki to gain general knowledge, and then dig in, using the links and looking at related sites.

Re: World War II classroom

jjsigford — Sun, 23 Oct 2011 01:59:37 +0100

I don't know a lot of details, however I do know that there was a German "internment camp" not far from my home in Wyoming. From what I understand it was more like being detained than actually imprisoned, but I know they existed. Sorry I don't have more information than that.

Re: WWII "Technicians"?

keystrokegraffiti — Thu, 20 Oct 2011 15:12:38 +0100

Thanks for clearing that up, can't tell you how much I appreciate it :) I'll do my best to do history justice in my NaNo. The whole reason for this question is that one of my two characters was going to have been a bit of a trouble-maker back in the war, but was also someone who was there at the division's entry to the war, all the way until the end. He wasn't going to be a leader in any sense of the word, but he was a skilled soldier. I didn't want to promote him too high, but I wanted him to be respected by his fellow soldiers, basically.

Re: WWII "Technicians"?

Grand Poobah — Thu, 20 Oct 2011 19:31:12 +0100

No problem. We're here to help...however we can. We've received some questionable questions over the years, but most of us don't care. At some point we had to confront the same situations. Everybody had a first day once.

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 22:40:42 +0100

Let's see. While he could legally join when 17, it wasn't very common prior to the actual declaration of war in December, 1941. Possible, but you'll want to supply some reasoning...i.e. get away from a terrible home or something. He might receive training as a sniper, but most likely only because he was a good shot to begin with. Snipers weren't much of a specialty prior to WWII in the US Army. Beyond that, he would typically be assigned to an infantry unit somewhere and hang around doing what peace-time Army guys do. Drill, practice, and be bored. He might, but wouldn't likely, be issued a "special rifle." In most cases, the troops around would know who the "best shot" was and rely on him in that way. Think of Shifty Powers from Band of Brothers. Since he's in the Army, he can't be overseas in Europe prior to the declaration of war. There were a few units here and there in England, but they were not typically stock infantry units. Most of them were specialties...logistics, intelligence, and the like, and their only purpose was to co-ordinate with the British, mostly dealing with the war in the Atlantic. You can find exact dates, but for the most part American troops didn't start heading to Europe until the Torch landings in North Africa, and those guys came directly from the US to Africa...no stop in England along the way. After Torch, Americans split up, some remaining to start the Sicily and Italian campaigns while others went to England for D-Day. Now you're into the 1943-44 era. You'd probably want to check an OrBat to see which units went where, and then back up to earlier times to see where the unit you need would have been stationed in the US. If you want him to be a POW for a year, that means he's pretty much got to get captured right at D-Day. The easiest route for that would be for him to be in the 82nd or 101st, since they were spread all over during the D-Day drops and lots of them ended up captured. Assuming he wasn't seriously wounded, there's no real reason to believe he wouldn't survive. Canadians from the raid on Dieppe survived much longer. There were, of course, exceptions, so anything is possible. If you want him to survive, keep him in a pure POW camp and don't let him get transferred to a KL. There are numerous cases where Americans, usually in small numbers, ended up in KL for various and strange reasons, and many of them were killed at the end. For treatment issues there are several sources. Most, unfortunately, are based upon the camps for RAF and USAAF personnel since they were often captured much earlier. You could read The Wooden Horse, or The Great Escape, or Escape from Colditz to get a sense of some of that, and there are many other books and web-sites that also deal with it. Google is your friend. One last thought: Assuming he's actually deployed as a sniper, which was pretty rare, he wouldn't want to admit that to those who capture him. They wouldn't be impressed, and he'd be in for a rough time.

Re: World War II classroom

sschwarz — Sat, 22 Oct 2011 02:49:03 +0100

Focusing more on the PoW question: From stories I have heard, prisoners in German camps were treated relatively well. You do have cases where Germans would massacre prisoners but these cases are rare. This was due to the fact that there were shared feelings of European decent. Germans [and Italians] saw themselves as very similar to the American troops [and vice versa]. Now, from first hand accounts I've encountered, ethnicity did have something to do with how well you were treated. A German-American in a German PoW camp was treated better especially if he could speak German. This connection made him seem more like the captors. My Sources: -The Deadly Brotherhood by John McManus -First Hand Accounts

Re: World War II classroom

svetkar — Sun, 23 Oct 2011 00:06:53 +0100

I've just been browsing personal accounts of American, British and Australian POWs here: http://pegasusarchive.org/pow/frames.htm Lots of information on conditions in camps for Western POWs and their backgrounds prior to imprisonment.

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Sat, 22 Oct 2011 06:35:54 +0100

There's no one answer to this. The major problem is that all of German society was confused and upheaved by the war. The men came home to discover that the women, who had traditionally been the homekeepers, were running the world. They weren't in the government, but they worked, tended the homes (or piles of debris) and had become incredibly independent. The men who actually continued to believe in the Nazi myth of man fights/woman as babies found themselves slapped down by their "uppity" wifes. In Berlin, and the other areas occupied by the Russians, the men fought back in strange ways. They accused the women who had been raped...which was almost all of them...of having loose morals and not behaving properly. That just made the women madder, for obvious reasons. There wasn't a whole lot of "you lost the war" response from the women, but they struggled to make the men understand that they too had suffered. Most men had no idea what it had been like for civilians, partly because Nazi propaganda never acknowledged the effects of bombing on the country. For the most part, beyond these things, the men were accepted reasonably well. Everyone had suffered, and continued to do so...so those with wounds and scars weren't much different. The truly indoctrinated Nazis didn't do well when they tried to blame others for losing the war, so they pretty much learned to keep their mouths shut. One strange thing, which sort of makes sense if we think about it, is that the end of the war is, even today, referred to as die Stunde Null...the zero hour. For a long time, Germans just "ignored" things that happened before May of 1945. It was non-history, and the ultimate taboo, so while a man might acknowledge his injuries were war-related, he wouldn't likely share his experiences, including how he came to have them. It wasn't so much "shame" as it was just the incomprehensible enormity of the whole thing. Although it wasn't an organized thing, Germans denied guilt simply by denying the whole thing...not outwardly, but to themselves. So...your men might struggle, but their physical appearance wouldn't truly be the cause of it. There's an old German proverb that says a country finishes a war with three Armies...an Army of women, and Army of elders, and an Army of cripples. Some people also add "an Army of orphans." German society spent the first 20 years or so after the war trying to decide what German society was, and in places like Berlin, they tried to do that while being pulled apart by the cold war. Part of that general re-thinking was defining a role for a German military, and (Gasp) even discussing whether there should be one.

Re: World War II classroom

ladysusan — Sat, 22 Oct 2011 10:28:10 +0100

I'd say that's a psychological question rather than a historical one, and would depend on the personality of the man in question. Not quite "obvious" injuries and scars, such as amputated toes or a limp, might be less of an issue. There were too many men around who had even worse injuries to deal with, and so it would probably be viewed as a trivial matter by the man's acquaintance and maybe even by himself. He may consider himself lucky, even, to have got through the war with relatively little damage done to his body - he'll have seen plenty of others who didn't, so he probably won't complain. Burn scars in the man's face may be more difficult to come to terms with. I think a lot would depend on how important his looks were to him in the first place, and on how people reacted on seeing him after he'd suffered his injuries. A man who used to pride himself on his good looks, or whose girlfriend left him because because of the scars in his face, may have serious problems, and may suffer more. I don't think their perceptions of their looks would change much after the defeat of Germany - it's a personal matter rather than a political one. Of course the consciousness of "I've lost my good looks / ability to walk / ... and it was all for nothing" may add to their problems. Little comfort though it may be, "I did it for a good cause and the good cause has won" may help. But a man who has accepted the way he looks won't change his mind. Nor will a man who is unhappy about what has happened to him. Both my grandfathers got through the war without visible scars (or so I think), but they both suffered from nightmares for the rest of their lives (that's what my grandmothers told me). None of them liked to talk about the war, and so I can't remember them telling us much. There was one man in my village though who came home from the war with only one leg, and he got married and had several children so I don't think he had much of a problem in his relationship with women. Or one woman, at least. He also ran the local grocery shop and led quite a normal life in spite of his disability. Hope this helps!

Re: World War II classroom

svetkar — Sun, 23 Oct 2011 00:09:04 +0100

Grand Poobah and Ladysusan, Thanks for your perspectives. Those are such good insights!

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Sun, 23 Oct 2011 00:10:24 +0100

Need a bit more information....on question 1. By "Nazi captain" do you mean a Wehrmacht officer with the rank of Hauptmann? He might not be a member of the party, and quite likely wouldn't be. Typical age range in that situation would be somewhere between 23 and 30, at least early on. Later, the ages dropped, largely due to casualties. Promotion varied, largely because it does that during wars. A typical time in grade in peacetime goes out the window when men are getting killed, and a Oberleutnant might advance to Oberstleutnant in a couple years if he's good, and there are lots of deaths. The battlefield is a great place to earn promotions. Now, if you're talking about a position in the SS, the rules were a bit different. The man would be a party member. He would have attended specific SS schools, sworn his oath with the Blutfahne, and exemplify the Nazi ideals. He would likely be a bit older, but the same rules of Darwin apply to the SS also. His advancement might additionally be controlled by what he did, so being in a Panzer or infantry unit would be different than if he was in an Einsatzgruppen. I'm going to leave questions 2 and 3 to others, since I know there are a couple here in the classroom that can provide better sources with less digging.

Re: World War II classroom

svetkar — Sun, 23 Oct 2011 00:35:52 +0100

On the first question: Omer Bartov provides a good study on Wehrmacht officers in his book "The Eastern Front, 1941-45, German Troops and the Barbarisation of Warfare" (Chapter 2, The Officers: Backbone of the Army). Although Bartov's focus is on the Eastern Front, for his analysis of officer cadres he uses statistics from pre-1935 to 1945, including breakdowns by age, education, social class (aristocratic vs non-aristocratic), service type (reservists vs regulars), Nazi party membership, rates of promotion, etc. By 1945 the average age of junior officers (2nd lieutenants, lieutenants and captains) was 31-32 for reserve officers, and 28-29 for regular officers. The promotion dynamics are discussed in the chapter, too. For his analysis he picked three divisions: 12 Infantry Division, Grossdeutschland Division and 18 Panzer Division. 12 Infantry Division took part in the invasion of France before being transferred to the East. Grossdeutschland Infantry Regiment (which later became Grossdeutschland Division) fought in France as part of Guderian's XIX Panzer Corps.

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Tue, 01 Nov 2011 16:35:42 +0000

An evacuated child? From where? To where? When? Germany, France, England, where? "what would a naval officer patrolling the Dover waters and during Dunkirk?" What is your question here?

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Sat, 22 Oct 2011 23:59:38 +0100

Contact between the US occupation forces and Japanese civilians was unregulated, unlike the non-frat rules that failed so miserably in Germany. Japanese society underwent a tremendous upheaval after the war, causing them, both collectively and individually, to reconsider age-old beliefs and customs. The two major changes, at least the two that people can actually see and feel, were the formal denunciation of war in the new Constitution, and the abandonment of the idea that the Emperor was Divine. You can think of those as probably the biggest about-face any society has ever made. By 1955 the hatred of Japanese had largely declined, so the men stationed there were likely to strike up relationships with Japanese women. Remember, due to the war, there was a rather severe shortage of Japanese men, and the Americans were not viewed as defeated or failures. By the same token, although it sounds sexist (and quite possibly is) American men found Japanese women delightfully subservient, willing to do anything to please their man. By 1955 you had men in the occupation forces who did not fight in the war, so they might not have had those hardened feelings that came with combat. So, the short answer is your question is...because she fell in love with him. He appeared to offer things she desired, and he felt the same way. I assume your second question relates to the war period. Anyone with Japanese ancestory was automatically suspect. Even those who were US citizens. The west coast was somewhat special, but largely because there weren't a lot of Japanese east of the Rockies. Someone from a mixed marriage might be relatively "safe" on the east coast, but it would depend largely upon physical appearance. If they appeared to be Japanese, then that's bad news. If not, then they might well be able to get along. Officially the military didn't care about mixed parentage, but un-officially all sorts of things went on. Again, he'd probably be measured by his appearance first. A response of "Get out of here, you filthy Jap. We don't need your kind in the Army" wouldn't have been all that strange (sorry, but that's the wording that would have been used.) Remember that newspapers, magazine and the public media used the term "Jap" and "Dirty Jap" and all sorts of variations during the entire war. Now, assuming he was allowed to enlist, he likely would have encountered all kinds of abuse within the service. His parentage would have come out eventually, and then almost everyone would line up to take shots at him. Much later, when the volunteers from the internment camps were finally allowed to serve, though limited to the European Theater of Operations, the 442 RCT proved that Japanese-Americans could be outstanding soldiers. However, most of those men were "pure Japanese" just born here. So, could he get in? Possibly. Would it be hell once he did? Yup. He might, assuming he lasted, be able to shake a lot of that, at least within his own unit, but his performance in the field, but that's a tough way to make new friends. Not many could have handled it.

Re: World War II classroom

Sprog — Sun, 23 Oct 2011 03:56:36 +0100

Johannes Steinhoff, a Luftwaffe ace and General in the postwar reformed Luftwaffe had been horribly burnt in a flying accident during the last days of the war. His facial scaring and disfigurement was so extensive that photos taken before his injuries and afterwards do not look like the same person. But despite the scarring, he made a complete recovery, had an extremely successful postwar military career which included serving in high ranking positions in the top echelon of NATO. He married, had a daughter and was awrded American and French military honours. I would say his extremely disfiguiring facial scars didn't prevent him from leading a full, productive and distinguished life.

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Sun, 23 Oct 2011 21:26:29 +0100

Enlistment was followed by basic training (I'm assuming Army here) and then additional training at various points inside the US. It's entirely possible he would receive leave during that whole period. Google can provide you with bunches of sites that pretty well detail that sequence. Normally mail was allowed regularly, and, in fact, recruits were encouraged to write home...mainly to reassure the home front that things were okay. Assuming he is sent to England, and staged for D-Day (the most common assignment based upon pure numbers) he would have been able to write at least once a week, using the thin blue-tissue self-folding letter form. Who he writes to is up to him...mom, girl, best buddy. The censors would remove any reference to his location, his unit, and anything specific about his training. So...he'd tend to talk about how he misses home, how bad the English weather is, and how different the food is. He might be able to mention a trip to London while on a pass. Since he is not yet married, the military frowned upon naming her in his will. However, it did happen. She would not likely be informed directly if his parents are still alive. They would receive two things (usually). The first would be a telegram (yes, a real Western Union thingy) saying "We regret to inform you that...." Later, they would most likely receive a letter from his CO. The best examples for that can be seen in the opening of Saving Private Ryan. The letters usually said how brave he was, that he was an outstanding soldier, and the usual crap. They never said things like..."we were sitting around after the battle and a stray shot hit him" or..."he walked into a minefield and got blown to bits." The body would not be returned to the US for burial. Assuming it was more or less intact, it would be handled by the Graves Registration detail and then buried in a military cemetery. It might, at some later time, be moved to a more formal setting...see the cemetery in Saving Private Ryan as an example. Those cemeteries are all over Europe. If you want to make his unit and such real, just look up the OrBat for D-Day and go from there. Another option, if you want to kill him later, would be to find a book like The Last 100 Days or Siegfried. Both of those have great details on which units were where during the post D-Day times.

Re: World War II classroom

svetkar — Sun, 23 Oct 2011 04:29:36 +0100

Sprog, Thanks for your comment. I Googled Johannes Steinhoff and found an interview with him. It's interesting, although he certainly wasn't an average German. Remarkably, he had a "mensur" scar from his student years at the University of Jena. The University of Jena used to have a strong tradition of mensur fencing.

Re: World War II classroom

Gadifere — Sun, 23 Oct 2011 15:06:07 +0100

as far as I know: "get the information by any means necessary" accompanied by "use your imagination". here's a (french) recount of what the typical prisoner of the Gestapo had to endure. If you're not fluent in French, past it in google translate: it gets a coherent enough text in English to get the gist of things http://www.histoire-en-questions.fr/vichy%20et%20occupation/oppression%20pillage/gestapo%20torture.html

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Sun, 23 Oct 2011 21:14:55 +0100

In simple terms, there weren't any. Although the actual treatment varied widely, based usually upon what the prisoner was suspected of doing, how important the information seemed to be, and how inspired the interrogator was at the moment. Two examples might provide the contrast. The men who attempted to kill Hitler in 1944 were pretty badly beaten if it was believed that they could name others involved. They all knew they would die anyway, so many didn't break. Others did. In the end, hundreds were killed, many who had nothing to do with the plot. On the other hand, it wasn't uncommon to allow a prisoner to go free if he fingered others. The thinking was they'd just arrest the guy again and then get him. If you want a pretty realistic vision of this concept, find a copy of the movie Edelweiss Pirates and you can watch the process firsthand.

Re: World War II classroom

jjsigford — Mon, 24 Oct 2011 00:07:07 +0100

Thanks for your help! This at least gives me an idea of what direction to go in.

Re: World War II classroom

pirateaika — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 22:32:11 +0100

Thank you! Just ordered America's Invisible Gulag - should definitely be enough to make me decide how to handle that thread of the plot.

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Thu, 27 Oct 2011 09:59:59 +0100

Sevtkar is who you want. He'll likely be along shortly. That's right down his alley.

Re: World War II classroom

svetkar — Fri, 28 Oct 2011 02:11:19 +0100

There are a lot of sources that could help you bring your Romanian characters and settings to life. I can't recall sources dealing specifically with Eastern Romania, but here are some on pre-war and wartime Romania in general. 1) Photo archives - BPK archive http://bpkgate.picturemaxx.com/ - If you enter "Rumaenien" in the search field under "Bildsuche" in lower left corner and click on "Suche", it will retrieve lots of pictures labeled Romania (Rumaenien in German), including photos from the 30's and 40's. You'll have to comb through hundreds of photos - towns, people, villages, home interiors, public events, etc.; - Bundesarchiv http://www.bild.bundesarchiv.de/ - on this site you can also enter your year range, but the geographical names need to be in German - Rumaenien for Romania, Bukarest for Bucharest, etc. The German captions should be easy to translate with help of Google Translator. 2) Some memoirs by people who either lived in Romania, or passed through Romania before and during the war: A Holocaust Memoir by A. Edward Friedmann Reflections on a Distant Journey by Ivan Grosz Girl from Sighet by Hindi Rothbart Rozalia Alone by Rosita Fanto Poland Adieu by Bogdan Broniewski You could look inside these books on Scribd.com, Amazon.com or Google Books to see if they might provide anything of interest for you. If you search WorldCat.org, scribd.com or Google Books by keywords "Romania" and "Nazi", more literature will come up, as well. 3) Also, some fiction: The Holocaust Diaries, Book IV, by Leo Kanawada (a historical novel) The Casualty by Heinrich Boll - this short story has a very vivid snapshot of a cafe and railway station in Romania as the main character, of a wounded German soldier, passes them en route to a hospital. 4) A PBS website feature about Elie Wiesel, survivor of Holocaust in Romania. Apparently, the DVD also contains a part on pre-war life in Elie Wiesel's hometown of Sighet: http://www.pbs.org/eliewiesel/photo/index.html Hope this helps.

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Thu, 27 Oct 2011 22:19:23 +0100

In general, farms in small villages were largely unaffected directly by the occupation. There might not even be a German presence in the immediate area, and the more rural the setting, the less likely anyone would bother them much. A lot of France was left to the French to administer, and although some officials quickly joined the Nazis in being overlords, many did not. Unless something happened, such as a resistance attack on a rail line, life would pretty much just go on more or less as before. There were shortages, and some rationing, but farmers generally did better because they could grow or raise their own food. Eventually there was a general sweep looking for Jews, but in some places that wasn't carried out all that violently. Again, it might depend upon the enthusiasm of the local officials. When the war itself came, the military moved through, often rather quickly, and the allied occupation took over. Oddly, it was often a bit more heavy-handed than the Germans had been, partly because the resistance and partisans were out searching for suspected collaborators. Also, there was a political upheaval in France, with the Communists seeking to assert power in the post-war government. If can provide a more specific location, we can tell you more.

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Fri, 28 Oct 2011 10:38:04 +0100

Thanks. Looking forward to seeing you Saturday.

Re: World War II classroom

ahleeson — Fri, 28 Oct 2011 23:45:44 +0100

Wow, these are fantastic resources. Thank you!!

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Sat, 29 Oct 2011 05:54:30 +0100

Good news and bad news. In many cases, children were allowed to return, assuming it was possible to locate records or reasonably reliable information upon which to base decisions. DNA was completely unavailable at that time, so proof was often limited to paperwork, which might or might not have existed in the first place. The bad news: The bulk of the records from the SS, which was directly involved in the Lebensborn homes, was captured and/or destroyed by the Russians when they took Berlin. A lot of that material was taken, in bulk, and shipped to Russia. For many reasons, not the least of which was the nature of the war between Russia and Germany, the Russians didn't really want nor use those records...they simply wanted to deny them to the Germans, and by inference, the western allies. So, records were pretty tough to come by, and the only thing available might be any copies or whatever that the "parents" had when the child was liberated. Even today, with much of the Russian archive open or partially available, most records are impossible to find. None of it was ever recorded, just boxes stuffed into trucks and taken to storage. Think of this like the end of the first Indiana Jones movie. Even the Russians don't know what all that have/had, and there are no funds to have it cataloged. Probably your best bet, short of a long shot, would be for the character to have some memory of her adoptive parents saying something about...she came from **** or a rough birth date. It's possible to track some of that stuff, and actually easier if it occurred outside of Germany proper. Sophia, can you add anything here?

Re: World War II classroom

svetkar — Sat, 29 Oct 2011 07:11:15 +0100

My two cents: - Soviet and Polish authorities had a policy of tracking down and repatriating each and every child they believed to be of Soviet or Polish citizenship by birth. They tracked them down and, often by force, took children away from their adoptive German families. Sometimes the children were re-united with their birth families, but sometimes they ended up in a worse situation at an orphanage because no surviving members of their families could be found; - For Norway, it would depend on whether the Norwegian authorities had a child repatriation policy similar to Soviet and Polish. Unfortunately, I don't know much about Norwegian policies. -UNRRA (United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration) operated a tracking service in Europe after the war. People sent in requests for searches of their missing relatives, and many of them were parents looking for their lost children. If the Norwegian mother tried to find her child after the war, she could go through UNRRA, which would leave a paper trail in UNRRA archives; - Ben Shephard devotes a chapter to tracking and repatriation of children in his book, "The Long Road Home: The Aftermath of the Second World War". I can't remember what it said about Norway, since my main interest was Soviet DPs (Displaced Persons), but the bibliography could lead you to more sources; - There are various websites where descendants of DPs and GI's stationed in Germany post-war, post ads searching for their long-lost parents/grandparents/GI fathers, sometimes with scans of old photos and documents. Some female forced laborers didn't want to bring home their children born in Germany because they either were unwed mothers or expected to reunite with their long-lost husbands in their home country. The children ended up either in an orphanage or with an adoptive family. Sometimes it's another way around - GI fathers looking for their lost old flames with possible descendants in Europe, or grandchildren/nephews searching for lost children on behalf of their grandmothers or great-aunts. If a young relative or friend of your character stumbles upon a document or photo online that appears to be connected to your character and tells her about it, it could trigger your character's quest for her roots. Myself, I accidentally unearthed Ellis Island passenger records online while searching for an obscure town in Lithuania/Belorussia for my WWII novel. The records contained information on my great-grandfather's long-lost brother about whom we knew almost nothing except his name, place of birth (not the town I was searching for!) and the fact that he emigrated to the US in early 20th century. From the records I learned his occupation (veterinarian), education (University of Bern, Switzerland), places he lived in Europe (Switzerland and France), general appearance, date of birth and date of arrival in the US. How about a few scraps from Lebensborn archives popping up on Ebay.de or Third Reich/WWII forums?

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Mon, 31 Oct 2011 08:46:12 +0000

Several questions, and potentially some confusion. By "Nazi character" do you mean an actual party member, or simply someone in the Wehrmacht or SS? 19 would be very young to formally join the party, although the age wouldn't automatically disqualify him. Depending upon the time, and where in the progression of the war this takes place, it's unlikely a purely military soldier would be searching a house. If the action takes place during a German advance, then it's possible, but far more likely that the occupants wouldn't be identified as Jews. The Wehrmacht would search for weapons or threats and then move on, unless they had taken fire from the house. Once the house is "behind" the front, searches would more likely be conducted by other groups, although the military was co-opted into such things from time to time. It would also depend upon where this is happening. A search inside a city like Warsaw, especially around the time of the Ghetto Uprising, might include Wehrmacht troops, but much less likely in the countryside. Usually those things were done by SS troops. Unless the group offered resistance, which outside of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising was pretty rare, the troops wouldn't open fire. Those in doubt would simply be led away. It would be up to others to determine if there were Jews involved, and even then they would likely simply be held until the next transport to a camp. You infer that your character is not Jewish, and they would be handled differently. In the end, they would be sent to a camp too unless they were wanted for other reasons. Harboring a Jew was a serious offense. Einsatzgruppen were a part of the SS, so the distinction is very narrow. They all worked for the same outfit, some just doing different jobs. Einsatzgruppen were charged with both Jews and partisans, especially in the East. They were a pretty ruthless lot, and did conduct "on the spot" executions regularly. The SS camp guards were a separate unit from the SS military, and seldom did a person move between them. Guards were recruited a little differently and didn't have some of the same strict standards that the SS military forces did. Now and then a wounded SS soldier might be seconded to the camp guards if they were unable to resume full combat duties, but it wasn't that common. I sense I haven't answered all your questions, so feel free to IM me if you need more.

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Wed, 02 Nov 2011 07:05:33 +0000

Coast watchers were never captured. They were killed. If one was actually "captured" it would most likely be an accident, and most Japanese commanders would quickly rectify the situation. They were spies, and had no rights, not that the Japanese were big observers of rights at that point in the war. Your Spanish character might be asked some questions, but that would be true of any candidate. Unless he has some significant baggage dealing with the Spanish civil war, it most likely wouldn't matter much. Franco remained neutral, even if he turned a blind eye to a certain amount of Axis activity. The British found that rather useful, so they tended to generally play along. They were impressed that Franco wouldn't let Hitler march through to attack Gibraltar, so a lot was forgiven. In all likelihood, your character might even have been in the Pacific because of his involvement on one side or the other...unless he predates that time, so his history might actually be in his favor. A lot of those folks fled their home country under clouds.

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Wed, 02 Nov 2011 07:12:45 +0000

The Navy actually made a real effort to deliver and pick up mail. They knew what it meant to sailors on long deployments, and saw the effort as valuable in maintaining morale...which it was. He could write more or less as often as he wished, and most ships were able to have mail picked up every couple of weeks if they weren't directly in combat at the time. UnRep was common, and that was part of the deal. They also did an amazing job of routing mail to the ships, but letters would routinely be 3 to 8 weeks old when received. The girl's restrictions would vary widely, depending upon where she lives. No single answer. In the beginning, the draft boards were a little pickier, but later almost everyone qualified. Eyesight, as long as it was correctable to 20/20 was only a restriction in certain MOS. The common infantryman could be darn near blind and still qualify. A recruit wouldn't qualify for flight training. The economic effect of the war would depend entirely upon where their money came from, and what they are doing. There were many restrictions on wages, prices, and the like, but investment opportunities were rampant as companies tried to expand to meet government contracts. Some businesses were required to cease...such as making automobiles, and required to make military things, so they might be affected directly in a situation like that.

Re: World War II classroom

FrostAngel — Wed, 02 Nov 2011 11:16:33 +0000

Awesome! Thanks so much. :)

Re: World War II classroom

Gadifere — Fri, 04 Nov 2011 20:50:54 +0000

ok, those are a lot of questions. I can't answer them all, but I hope this little bit of info would help: Children of NSB members still went to the same schools as other kids. People would obviously know they were NSB kids, so other children would be warned to be cautious around them (don't say particular things and such). My grandpa told me the teachers in his elementary school didn't want to do certain things (sing certain songs for example) because they were afraid some kids in the classroom next to them would hear and tell their parents.

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Fri, 04 Nov 2011 19:25:40 +0000

Berlin was the target of a major series of raids by the RAF, starting towards the end of 1943 and running through about March-April of 1944. At that time, both the USAAF and the RAF were tasked to preparations for D-Day and Berlin was left more or less alone. There were a series of small nusiance raids, usually by a small force of Mosquitoes. It was almost the end of 1944 before major raids again targeted Berlin, and as the land area controlled by the Dritten Reich continued to be squeezed, more effort was put into Berlin. However, other cities were also targeted, and as the Russians came deeper into Germany, both the USAAF and RAF contributed tactical air for their advances. Bomber Harris, who still believed that he would win the war thought bombing even though it had been proved he couldn't, continued to destroy anything he could find, and the raids on Dresden are a great example of that. His work was every bit as horrific as the war crimes considered at Nürnberg, and...in honesty...he should have been tried too. Bombing of Berlin began to slack off when 1) there was nothing much left to bomb, and 2) the Russians were able to attack the city using artillery. There were no raids by the western allies after March of 1945. Sirens worked to the very last days, and if you'd like an idea of what that was like, find a copy of Downfall. It is very realistic and true to life. People hid where they could and when they could. Where shelters were still available people used them, but much of the city had been pulverized. As soon as the camps were liberated and the war ended, the Jews were somewhat free to move about. However, Berlin was supposed to be off limits, simply because there was no housing, no food, and the allies couldn't find a way to support the survivors who were already there. During the forced repatriation in 1945 and 46, the Russians did force a lot of people into Berlin, primarily because they felt it was to their advantage to further burden the western allies, hoping to force them out of Berlin. Find a copy of Berlin Command by Frank Howley for more, or perhaps a copy of The Candy Bombers for some insight into those early cold-war confrontations. Another good book would be In the Ruins of the Reich. Keep in mind that many of the Jews who survived had no desire to return to Berlin. For a large number, the only destination they wanted was Palestine, and many waited years in DP camps, hoping to get legal permission to emigrate. When that didn't happen, they often traveled through Italy and entered Palestine illegally. It was still a British mandate at the time. For the few Jews who were in Berlin, there was nothing. They were relatively unwelcome and the fabric of their former society was completely gone. If you need more, just IM me.

Re: World War II classroom

svetkar — Sat, 05 Nov 2011 04:27:55 +0000

The Soviets bombed Berlin until the beginning of May 1945. Army reports for 1st Byelorussian Front state that they carried out the last bombing of Berlin on May 3, 1945. On that day it was only 198 sorties. For comparison, on April 22, 1945, they flew 3624 sorties, including 840 night sorties. As the Red Army took over the outer areas of Berlin, the number of sorties gradually decreased. After May 3, 1945, the air forces of 1st Belorussian Front flew out for reconnaisance only. However, there was also 1st Ukrainian Front which took Berlin from the South. They launched their own air raids too, but I don't have the army reports for that front. Since my novel is set in North Berlin, I downloaded the reports for 1st Belorussian Front that drove through northern areas. During the Battle of Berlin most residents hid in cellars, bunkers and basement shelters, living there for days. There are plenty of clips of documentaries on Battle of Berlin on Youtube, like this one from History Channel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8H7eNUpBy7Q "Berlin at War" by Roger Moorhouse gives a good overview of life in wartime Berlin, including the last months of the Third Reich. "Witnesses of War: Children's Lives under the Nazis" has some accounts of German children's experiences during the Battle of Berlin. If you are interested in reading more on the Battle of Berlin, here are some authors to check out: Tony Le Tissier - "Race for the Reichstag" which details the progress of the Red Army through the city. He also compiled and edited several books of personal accounts by German defenders of Berlin. "Berlin Dance of Death" has episodes set in the area near Zoo. "With Our Backs to Berlin" includes a personal account of a teenage Flak helper at the Zoo bunker, as well as accounts by others who fought in Central Berlin; Other classic books on the Battle of Berlin are Anthony Beevor's "Fall of Berlin" and Cornelius Ryan's "The Last Battle".

Re: World War II classroom

FairytaleEnding — Sun, 06 Nov 2011 02:38:07 +0000

Thanks to both Grand Poobah and svetkar! That information is really, really helpful :)

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Fri, 04 Nov 2011 23:35:34 +0000

I'll try to help, but I'm a little confused about your situation. There were battles for ports immediately after the initial D-Day landings, but the only men "defending a harbour" would have been German troops. So, are you looking for things that the attacking Americans might have done, or things the defending Germans might have done? I can probably give you ideas for either, but they're not going to be the same things.

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Sat, 05 Nov 2011 06:22:19 +0000

This is going to take a little digging. Let me see what I can find, and perhaps others can join in also.

Re: World War II classroom

DictatorEuro — Sat, 05 Nov 2011 14:18:39 +0000

Thanks a bunch XD I know the Reichskonkortat relegated priests to only being drafted into non-combatant positions, but I dont know if it was ONLY meant to be sanitaeter first and then everything else second. And this is pretty much whats tripping me up X3 I can also offer services to anyone else who wants to know about the Chaplaincy in Germany or the Church relations to the Nazi government at the time. I have a stash of books and resources to offer if anyone has any questions as well. -salutes the Poobah-

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Sat, 05 Nov 2011 18:44:34 +0000

I haven't found anything significant yet, but my first hunch, largely based upon some inferential material from a couple of sources, is that the section of the Reichskonkortat you cited was largely put in as a sop...something Hitler saw as a cheap and easy throw-away to keep the church happy. In that sense, it sounds exactly like something he would do. He could, and likely would, at any time he felt like it, simply ignore it, much as he did with many other promises and treaties. In short, it cost him nothing and might have been "one of those things" that made the deal palatable to the church. In general he didn't have much use for religion in the first place, and more or less tolerated it simply because he didn't need the fight. When the church got a little uppity, the Reichskonkortat was a way to quell the "disturbance" without losing face. It's pretty clear the church didn't want a big fight either, so it worked for both of them...in that sense. I do find it interesting that very few first-person narratives of the Wehrmacht include any significant mention of religious services. Some I've found and/or read mention a service at Christmas or maybe Easter, but that's about it. Altner mentions a Pfarrer present at some executions, but it's unclear if it was a Chaplain or just somebody from Berlin. I'm left to think it was likely a pretty rare event. There is a mention of a Priest administering last rites to a number of French prisoners in Tulle during the rampage of Das Reich, but he appears to have been the local parish priest and not a Chaplain. I'll keep looking though.

Re: World War II classroom

svetkar — Sat, 05 Nov 2011 21:03:36 +0000

I've got a couple of sources in my long list of bookmarks that might help you some. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb050/is_2_70/ai_n28848401/?tag=content;col1 - An article by Doris L. Bergen, "German Military Chaplains in World War II and the Dilemmas of Legitimacy", which discusses the position of clergy in Wehrmacht. A couple of quotes that in part answer your questions: [quote] Military regulations stipulated that chaplains had to have been born in 1909 or earlier.(21) The intention presumably was to avoid wasting prime fighting power. Younger Protestant pastors were drafted into the regular military; Catholic priests below the designated age, exempted from combat by the terms of the 1933 concordat, served in the medical corps.(22) There were exceptions, particularly on the Catholic side, but most chaplains were in their forties or fifties during the war; some were even older.[/quote] [quote] The 1941 guidelines for German military chaplains made the point clearly: "Himself a soldier by nature, the military chaplain will always strike the right tone for the soldiers and thus find the right way to the soldiers' hearts.... For that reason, for the past year already, only clergy have been appointed as military chaplains who have been soldiers themselves and served at least six months at the front."(28)[/quote] This would suggest that younger priests and pastors would have to go through the regular soldier or medical orderly training once they had been drafted. http://www.history.ucsb.edu/faculty/marcuse/classes/133p/133p04papers/ALewisChaplains046.htm - this is a student research paper by Andy Lewis at University of California Santa Barbara, which discusses memoirs by two Wehrmacht chaplains. It also notes chaplain's career path: [quote] Acquiring a position within the chaplaincy both before and during World War II was difficult. The position of chaplain within the German army was prestigious; this combined with the fact that few full-time positions existed in peacetime made them very difficult to attain. Specifically, the Wehrmacht employed nine senior religious positions, twenty-six positions as army chaplain, and eight positions as full time base chaplains.[30] As such, it is not surprising that the application process for a place in the chaplaincy was a difficult one that became even more difficult during the war. To become a chaplain one had to be approved by the Feldbischof, the regional church, the MCA, and the Gestapo, which included proving that one's wife (in the Protestant case) was of Aryan blood.[31] This process strongly affected the Protestant chaplaincy [/quote] Both articles provide bibliographies that could point you to other sources.

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 21:56:11 +0000

Given your general description of the area, the forest would likely be the Ardennes. Sadly, once the shooting started, it became important real quickly. However, in 1939 and until Germany's assault on the Maginot Line, it was quiet. The so-called "sitz-krieg" a play on the word blitzkrieg and translating more or less as "sitting war" was pretty boring. Neither side wanted to attack. Hitler, because he didn't want a two-front war and hoped to finish off Poland before doing anything more, and France because they didn't really have the manpower...and they were relying upon their defensive wall to protect them. The area, while technically in one country, was actually international in character. It had changed hands many times over the years, so the boundary at the time was merely "where it is today." There were ethnic Germans, French, Belgians, and a mix of others and for the most part they got along reasonably well. For specifics, I'd recommend this as a place to start: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ardennes There are likely some people here who can give you more specifics and sites for lifestyles and such. The link does include some decent other links so you can probably branch out from there. As for later...the Ardennes became famous (the second time) as the site of the Battle of the Bulge. In winter 44-45 it was the scene of the last major German offensive on the western front, and it got pretty ugly for a few days. There are (literally) hundreds of sites and books and movies about that time period. The HBO series Band of Brothers includes a segment fought in this area, and it's very realistic. If you need more info, just IM me.

Re: World War II classroom

Gadifere — Thu, 10 Nov 2011 21:58:44 +0000

[quote]And if someone happens to know something about this and wishes to share, how was daily life in those early years in the countryside of Luxembourg, Belgium and the Nederlands, even France, as in food restrictions, jobs, landowners, farms, soldiers, attitude, children... before and after occupation?? [/quote] So while you decided to set your story in the Ardennes, I might still be able to provide some info on day to day life. My knowledge is mostly about the Netherlands, thought this would also have applied to other occupied areas. The early years of the war were not that much different for many people. Yes, there was a new government, but day to day life went on as usual. As the war progressed more strain was put on the daily lifes of normal people. Several things were confiscated, such as cars (most proper vehicles would be transported back to Germany or used for the forces in the region) or radios (to prevent the local population of getting news from the allied forces). Yet other things would go on as normal. Schools were still running. German would be compulsary in all schools, from primary school onwards, and I imagine the history courses would be taught very differently. Though in other aspects it wouldn't have changed much. In the countryside the food shortages would never get that bad as in the large cities, and weren't really happening until the war further progressed. People were close to the source, so to speak, so would be able to feed their families. Later on things would only be available with coupons, which were handed out according to how many members a household had. A certain amount of flour, butter, sugar, etc. could be bought from that. the black market in those food items, but also the coupons florished. At the end of the war, there would have been a lot of poachers as well as people stealing off the farmer's land. The closer to a larger city, the more likely a shortage in the food supplies and thus the poaching. Officers of the occupying forces would be housed with the better off families (middle class and higher up). The locals themselves had nothing to say about whether or not they liked the officers to live with them. If the fighting was moving closer towards their village, people might leave for a while and stay with family until the area is safe again (that's what my grandparents did, and I imagine a lot of people would have). That's all the tibits I could think of for now, though feel free to IM/PM me if you have any more questions.

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 21:57:13 +0000

Your best bet is to IM svetkar directly. She's very conversant with Russian history at that time, and I'm sure she can help you. If you scroll up a bit you'll find some of her previous comments and they'll give you some idea of her knowledge.

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 08:15:39 +0000

I IM'd svetkar tonight, and she got back to me. She's seen your question, and she'll try to help you out, most likely tomorrow. She said it's not a simple answer, but she'll know what you need to know, and she's a great help.

Re: World War II classroom

svetkar — Thu, 10 Nov 2011 01:46:11 +0000

I'll try to help a bit. I am not aware of significant shifts in social etiquette over the course of WWII. The most dramatic changes took place after the Bolshevik revolution in 1917, when many "old regime" formalities were abandoned, like addressing others as "Gospodin" or "Gospozha" (Mr. or Mrs.). By the beginning of WWII there would be several main groups with different sets of etiquette expectations. - The so-called "byvshie" ("former" in English), who were representatives of pre-1917 nobility or upper class intelligentsia would generally hold to a higher standard of politeness. Which, in turn, would often make them a target of ridicule from lower classes. - The lowest class - impoverished peasantry herded into collective farms - would often be the most ignorant in the overall etiquette spectrum. They would sometimes have very specific politeness/respect expectations among themselves. For example, I know that in old times it was common for a peasant family eat their meals from the same pot or pan without setting out individual plates for everyone. The proper family etiquette would be that the man (aka the "head of the family") would scoop his share from the common pot first, then his wife, then the children from oldest to youngest. If one of younger children dipped his spoon in the pot before his turn came, the father would give the kid a knock on the forehead with his spoon to keep the kid in line. - Average urban folk, some blue collar and some white collar. While a lot of young workers came to cities from villages, they often had a desire to adopt better "culture" (kultura), and leave behind some ways that were considered too "redneck" in the city. White collar people would consider themselves to be more culturally advanced than workers or peasants, although their mannerisms could span a wide range. This Soviet writer is an author of many excellent satire stories featuring average townspeople in the Soviet Union in the 20's-30's. His books might give you some idea what was considered good manners and what wasn't. http://www.amazon.com/Mikhail-Zoshchenko/e/B001I0WDTM/ref=ntt_athr_dp_pel_1 In the wartime, there was a big difference between the army culture and civilian culture. The army had a clear subordination hierarchy. On the other side, profanity was much more widespread in the army than among civilians. Wladimir Gelfand, a Soviet officer, wrote an excellent memoir with lots of examples of the social etiquiette in the army: http://www.gelfand.de/Nfoto/foto2RUS.html . So far as I know his memoir has been translated into German and Swedish, and some English-language historians refer to it in their books, as well. About contrasts between being polite then and there versus now in the US: In Russian culture there is more emphasis on seniority than in the U.S. Russians can address close friends or family by first name only, while in more formal situations they would address the other person by first name and patronimic name. A school kid/ college student with a teacher: he adresses the teacher by first name + patronimic, while the teacher addresses him by first name only. At work, people would typically address each other by a first name plus patronimic name unless they are close friends or had gone to school/college together. Same goes for neighbors in an apartment block. Children and young/teenage people are addressed by first name only. Also, Russians make a clear distinction between the formal "you" and informal "thou" ("vy" and "ty" in Russian respectively). Etiquette in Russia that might be different from the US.: - It is rude to enter someone's home and not take off your street boots and coat at the door; - For men it's rude not to take off their hat or cap when entering a home or a public venue (restaurant, theater, church, school, university, office, hospital, etc.) This doesn't apply to places where people come in only for a short time like a store or bank branch; - Typically, if two people are conversing or just present in the same room, politeness would dictate that if one of them wants to smoke, he would ask the permission from the other. The permission is usually granted. Likewise, if there is a window open/closed, and one wants to close/open it, he would ask the permission from the other as well; - It is rude to put your feet up (on a coffee table, desk, car dashboard) in the presence of others; putting your foot on your knee while sitting on a chair or couch is not acceptable either - While riding mass transit, good manners dictate that one gives up his seat if a visibly pregnant woman, elderly or disabled person is standing next to him and there are no vacant seats in sight in the bus/streetcar/subway car. Sometimes, older passengers would reprimand a young guy/girl for his/her failure to give his/her seat to an elderly man or expectant mother standing in front of him/her; - Table manners dictate against searching for a better piece in a serving bowl/dish. One must take the piece closest to him and put it on his plate. Same goes when someone offers others goodies/treats from a container/bowl. You take the first piece on the top and never dig in to search for a more appetizing morsel. - If you are hanging out with friends/family or taking a trip together, it is rude to have a snack or meal without sharing it with others. When in doubt, just don't snack with others around. - If someone drops in at your place, it is the norm to serve some coffee or tea and set a table (usually bread, some lunch-type meats, sweets, pastry, butter). If it is your regular meal time, you must invite the guest to share your meal (doesn't matter if you have only one serving of pasta left from yesterday). You must cobble something together on the spot since it's rude to let your guest go hungry. Some mannerisms that are acceptable in Russia but not in the US: - Grooming himself/herself in public. It's normal to comb your hair in public after taking your coat and hat off. They typically provide mirrors just for this purpose in lobbies/cloakrooms of basically every public venue - schools, museums, theaters, restaurants, universities, etc. On the other hand, it isn't ok to leave your hair disheveled after taking your hat off. It's also normal for women to apply a lipstick or powder in public; - It's ok to put your elbows on the table while eating; - No one expects you to write a thank-you card after receiving a present or staying with someone at his place. A verbal thank-you is enough; - It's ok to stand close to others in a line or crowd. Russians aren't so sensitive about personal space as Americans. In fact, on a really crowded bus you'll feel everyone's bodies pressing against you. Now, how a guy would act among other guys vs. with women. This would apply to urban folk in the past, as well. - Chivalry is important. Hold her coat for her if she wants to put it on. If she's carrying bags/suitcases, always offer your help to carry them. You don't need to carry her handbag though. Open doors for her. If sitting down, always wait for her to take a seat first (e.g. in a restaurant, at a friend's place, in an university classroom, etc.) This applies not only to the guy's dates. He would do the same for his sister, sister's friend, mother, aunt, grandmother, former teacher, university professor, co-worker, etc. - While a man might be more relaxed about his language with other men (not if they are his seniors), he usually watches his tongue with women. Same about body language. Feel free to IM me if you have questions about specific situations.

Re: World War II classroom

Liza.M — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 22:13:58 +0000

Thanks so much! I'm looking into the Ardennes, at least in pictures it looks just like the setting in my mind. I think the story will be going on mostly in the quiet time. It's interesting that it has switched hands so much, and the fact that there are different peoples definitely fits with my story. As I said, I won't be very specific but the research will help and more so later on if I finish all right and start editing. Thanks for the info, I'll be digging deeper from there!

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 00:50:59 +0000

There are/were numerous farms in the area, and although the forest is very dense, there are a lot of meadows and open areas around it, and in some places, within it. You can also look at the town of Foy as a good example. Again, you can find an excellent sense of that in the Band of Brothers series...both in that segment, and the "real thing" in the Making Of segment. That area in Europe was always in flux, mainly because other than the Rhein there really are no natural borders there. Alsace and Lorraine have been German, French, German, French, Dutch, German, French, and German again. The population is about 50-50 and for the most part they didn't much care. The French were happy when it was part of France, and likewise the Germans at other times. As long as the local government wasn't too one-sided the people just generally got along and made do.

Re: World War II classroom

Liza.M — Thu, 10 Nov 2011 03:42:48 +0000

Thank you again! I'm looking into it, and it's fitting very well. From the link and what I've read, it's the background I was looking for. Thanks!!!

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 22:39:41 +0000

Let me see if I can give you a reasonable overview. First, it varied widely. Like most other things relating to the Jews, there were the hard-core haters, those who went along, those who disagreed but went along, and a few that bucked the system. Officially, once things got rolling, a pregnant woman was "just another Jew" and got no special consideration. There are many documented cases of babies being born during the transports to the camps. Very young babies were sometimes hidden in clothing when their mothers were "sent to the showers" and when discovered they were simply tossed into the next available "shower." Ultimately the sole "protection" for any Jew was being in a mixed marriage. That was, ultimately, about the only "protected" group, but that protection did not change the fact the the unborn child would be considered a Jew. If you want to look into the ultimate results of that, look into the Rosenstrasse rebellion. The movie Rosenstrasse is very accurate too. Those not in the party, or actively part of the apparatus of death did what they did. Some accepted the situation and adopted the official point of view just to get along. Some would have denounced a woman, regardless of the pregnancy. Others might have had similar thoughts but were somehow emotionally impacted by the pregnancy and made choices. There are really no generalizations to be made, beyond those applicable to German society as a whole. The question of pregnancy would have changed few opinions...but it would have changed those few. The Jewish birth rate did drop, but largely because the Jews themselves began asking "should I bring another child into this world?" And, of course, more and more Jewish families were torn apart to the opportunity to get pregnant dropped. It is unlikely pregnancy would cause or prevent a death. Jews were going to be killed either way, and some more sadistic people simply claimed credit for two rather than one...and then moved on. Sad...but true. If you need more, or have other things, just IM me. Glad to help.

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Thu, 10 Nov 2011 03:52:44 +0000

Thanks for the help, svetkar.

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Thu, 10 Nov 2011 03:56:19 +0000

Glad to help.

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Fri, 11 Nov 2011 01:25:39 +0000

Thanks, Gadifere. For the most part, life in that general area was pretty similar regardless of which country the land was in. The major impact throughout the area was the construction of the West Wall, or Siegfried Line. Even along that front the farmers were pretty much left alone, and often ranged their cattle and other animals amongst the pillboxes and dragon's teeth. When the allies reached the wall they often found "secret" ways through the minefields by using the tracks the farmers had created to move their herds about.

Re: World War II classroom

Liza.M — Fri, 11 Nov 2011 02:29:30 +0000

Wow, this really is a great thread!! So useful! You've given me great information, thank you. I'm not very experienced with the forums but they have been an incredible help. So if any of you feel like setting your story in Peru in any time in history, look no further, I'll help gladly (plus we're very interesting haha). Just one more tiny question if possible - about the poaching. Did anyone tried to do something against it? The farmers, the landowners? Thank you!

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Fri, 11 Nov 2011 01:21:30 +0000

Initially, after the fall of France in 1940, the country was divided into "Occupied France" in which the Germans took an active role in almost everything, and "Unoccupied France" which was also known as "Vichy France" for the location of it's so-called government. In general, although it's not that simple, Vichy formally controlled "southern France," although technically they were the government for the whole country. DeGaulle and others established a Government in Exile, but it took a long time for that group to be recognized. They remained able to govern themselves, but subject to a great deal of pressure from Germany. During that time, Jews were not a super priority, and the "Final Solution" hadn't swung into full effect yet. That, of course, changed when Germany attacked Russia in 1941. Prior to that time, Jews in Germany were gradually being killed or transported to camps, primarily in the East...the former Polish territory which was now known as the General Government area. The Jews, along with a whole lot of others, who were originally in Poland had also been targeted. In Occupied France there were some efforts to round up the Jews during that time, but it was very piece-meal, and depended largely upon the local Gestapo enthusiasm. Some French officials were co-opted into helping, and some were very willing helpers. The Jews living in Vichy France were generally left alone, but certainly they knew that danger was coming. It was, more or less, common knowledge that at any time, for any reason, Hitler might chose to occupy the rest of France...with or without provocation. Roughly in the middle of 1942, the "Final Solution" was formalized, and thing began to change. In the East...Russia and Poland...Jews were all rounded up. Some went to camps as slave labor and many were killed out of hand. The program in France and the Benelux countries became more formalized. In Denmark the entire country was occupied, but never gave in...and when Jews were required to report...the entire population and government hid them. The leadership of Denmark famously said "I'll wear the star too," and many others joined him even though they were not Jews. A lot of Jews in Occupied France tried to escape, usually by moving to Vichy, and often then across the border into Spain. In November of 1942 the Germans scrapped the whole idea and occupied all of France. From that point on the policies were more or less uniform for the entire area. However, it is important to note that local French officials were still used extensively, and some resisted the demands that they round up the Jews. Others, looking out for themselves, cooperated. See Klaus Barbie as an example. There was a VERY small portion of France that was "controlled" by the Italians. When Hitler attacked in the west in 1940, Italy sat back and waited to see what would happen. As the Wehrmacht stream rolled the French and British, they still did nothing. Finally, just before the armistice, Italy declared war on France and "attacked." After many days of "hard fighting" they had advanced a few hundred meters into French territory in yet another display of Italian military prowess. At the armistice they were given a small amount of territory which did little more than allow Mussolini to claim some sort of victory. In general, although there are always exceptions to every situation, there were no Ghettos as such in France. Jews that were identified were sent by train to the camps in Germany or further to the East. Many were able to hide in the more rural areas where the Nazis didn't do much. If you need more, just IM me.

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Fri, 11 Nov 2011 04:03:19 +0000

Farmers generally tried to defend themselves, but most officials wouldn't have been too bothered about it. If people "found" food to eat, it was one less problem for officials who had to deal with rationing and the black market. I suspect there were some "confrontations" and most likely some casualties from them, but..life was rough then. On a local level I suspect some police tried to investigate and prosecute some cases, but "normal crime" tended to get lost in the bigger issues of the days. As the end came closer, people uniformly became more desperate and the regular rules of society began to collapse. Staying alive...and finding the next meal...became primal functions and all else didn't matter. However, this only became a BIG problem close to the major cities.

Re: World War II classroom

Gadifere — Fri, 11 Nov 2011 06:59:10 +0000

in addition to Grand Poobah's answer: farmers might also have helped those in need. Of course they tried to protect their produce, but everybody knew life in the cities was bad, especially the last year of the war. There are stories of people travelling a good 50km or more to get some food, though I doubt people would risk travelling into an area where they knew fighting was going on. Farmers could also allow people to take some food during the harvest. I've seen footage of farmers harvesting the wheat, and when they are done with a part of the land, people would flock to pick up the grains that had fallen in the dirt (yes some were that desperate). They might also sell some produce to passerby's for an increased price. On the one hand people stole from their lands, on the other hand they could make a very nice profit if they wanted to. At least in the Netherlands people who did make insane profits off the desperation of others had to pay back everything after the war (most certainly not during the war) and extreme cases were prosecuted, though I don't know if the same happened in Belgium. Poaching in the woods might have been prosecuted by the local police and gamekeepers, though those gamekeepers might just have well joined in the quest for an extra meal or some extra money. They knew the forest best after all!

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Fri, 11 Nov 2011 05:26:13 +0000

RE: Paris. The best book by far....http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/bookreviews/5016905/Americans-in-Paris-by-Charles-Glass-review.html I don't think anyone's done any better unless you happen upon a personal memoir or something like that. RE: Istanbul. The best book I know of is this one...Hassell, A, and MacRae, S: Alliance of Enemies: The Untold Story of the Secret American and German Collaboration to End World War II, Thomas Dunne Books, 2006 Stars in Paris could have been either...originally more likely in French, but later Jude. If you enter "jewish star holocaust" in Google images, you'll see a whole mess of different designs. BTW, it would never be "Juden" but "Jude." The Westland Lysander was designed to hold a single passenger in the rear cockpit. However it was possible to carry up to three in emergencies. The plane was specifically designed for STOL, one of the features that endeared it to the OSS. There is a picture on this forum that shows the headquarters...and its original name. http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=127686&view=next You could probably post more questions on that forum also...it's generally a pretty good place.

Re: World War II classroom

swallowfeather — Sat, 21 Jan 2012 20:25:03 +0000

You probably don't need this anymore since you have the info, but I happened to have a French star of David image in my back pocket so to speak, on the cover of a book I'm reading, so here it is. http://www.amazon.fr/Ces-enfants-quil-fallait-sauver/dp/2226036806

Re: World War II classroom

Plaid-K — Sat, 12 Nov 2011 04:45:33 +0000

Perfect. Thanks. My (previously fluent) French is far better than my (nonexistant) German so I'll stick with that. And I"m glad to have it confirmed I was on target with the research--that's the two books I have slated to read in December--also Irene Nemirovsky if I can manage to get through it without drinking a bottle of whiskey and taking some pills. And the Lysander info makes perfect sense. Thanks so much again!

Re: World War II classroom

Liza.M — Fri, 11 Nov 2011 14:55:27 +0000

Thank you both for your answers!

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Sat, 12 Nov 2011 02:16:02 +0000

1. Surrender was never an option, and a great loss of face if it happened. Even soldiers that were captured because they were wounded expressed a desire never to return to Japan...because they would be forever treated as social outcasts. Suicide was a viable option for officers, and remains well accepted in Japanese society today. Although it is slowly changing, even students who don't do well in the big tests that determine which schools you can go to will feel an obligation to kill themselves...and many do. The common foot-soldier was more likely to engage in a final suicide charge, or perhaps fake a wound and appear to surrender and the detonate a grenade when his captors were near enough. There are many pictures of captives being forced to strip before approaching Americans, to show that they weren't carrying a grenade or weapon. 2. The US military was very segregated during WWII. Sometimes black soldiers did end up in white hospitals, and the hospital ships took everyone, although the wards were usually segregated. On the mainland there might have been both races in the same building, but often they were effecting operating two hospitals within one. It was President Truman who, after the war, integrated the military. His order was not immediately popular, and there was a lot of foot-dragging about implementing it. Most POW camps in the Pacific were operated by the Navy or Army directly, and few had nurses until the front had moved on. The staff would have been almost exclusively white, although there were exceptions. 3. This is probably as good a place to start as any. You can follow the links therein to other sites. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Japanese_Army_Uniforms 4. Most Japanese installations in occupied territories were pretty similar to what the locals used. In the real jungle, they made do...living in tents and eating mostly rice and fish. In cities, just as Manila, they took over existing barracks, which were probably better than what the had back in the home island. The same would be true in Singapore and other colonial cities. If you enter "guadalcanal" into Google images, you'll get a pretty good idea of what a "temporary" jungle base looked like.

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Sat, 12 Nov 2011 02:00:06 +0000

Wiki is often a great place to start, but I'd take any given article as no more than a starting point. In this case, since this article is not part of the overall German WWII review, none of us in the project have touched it. In a quick reading it seemed reasonable, but I'm not an expert in this particular area. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drancy_internment_camp The article includes some links, including a documentary that should provide even more information.

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Sat, 12 Nov 2011 09:32:12 +0000

The information that will drive the answer is where. If the lighthouse were on one of the channel islands, the answer will be much different than if we're on the English mainland. If you can IM me with that, I can give you a better answer.

Re: World War II classroom

Eriadriel — Sun, 13 Nov 2011 12:16:27 +0000

Hi, Ladyalicia Your question caught my eye as I'm also looking at the subject of Germans (albeit POWs) on mainland Britain during WW2. I think the first thing you need to clear up is why a doctor is holed up in a lighthouse when he would have been conscripted into one of the military medical corps or working at a hospital.in a reserved capacity. It's neat that he's on hand to help with any injuries that your Luftwaffe pilot will have/exposure/hypothermia etc, but I don;t think he would have been operating a lighthouse during the war. I haven't come across much about lighthouses in my research - but the ones I have come across look like they were closed down for the duration, only being pressed into operation to help certain sea convoys through or guide aircraft. Bell Rock (oldest lighthouse in Britain) was attacked by the Luftwaffe a few times during the war - but this is a large lighthouse well offshore and I suspect your lighthouse will need to be firmly on shore. Channel Islands - This is a whole other story, as Grand Poobah has said. Why would the airman need to be hidden? They would just have patched him up and handed him back to the incumbent authorities. This would also remove the clandestine/risky nature of his appearance from your story. I do also think the Channel Islands were quite badly affected by the war. Life did not go on as normal,There were many shortages, fraternisation problems, communication issues etc. It's interesting, but a very different story than the one is sounds like you are trying to tell and a whole world of research. Mainland Britain - Well, if they were caught they would undoubtably have been arrested and charged - just not quite sure exactly what the charge would be. They would possibly be looking at treason, at the very least a charge of consorting with the enemy. I have never come across this happening because I think, by and large, people would have been only too happy to hand him over to the authorities, which is not to say that it did not happen.. If he was injured and they were very remote/cut off, then they could argue that they were aiding him and to do anything else would be ihumane. Very serious offence if they hang on to him once any danger has passed though - if you can get hold of it there is a book by Michael Morpurgo (it's a children's book so quite short and sweet and simplistic) called Friend or Foe, but it deals with two shot down airmen and the efforts of two young boys to keep them alive. It would give you a feel for the event you're trying to deal with. I'm really interested in your story so if you need a sounding board for anything I'd be glad to help. Just drop me an IM

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Sat, 12 Nov 2011 09:34:34 +0000

In general no, but there are exceptions. The questions will be where were they convicted and imprisoned... and by whom. What was their sentence? As an example, those convicted at Nürnberg received almost no visitors, while some of the lesser criminals, such as those convicted in the so-called Doctor Trials, where held for short times, their sentences often reduced beyond that, and were able to receive some visitations.

Re: World War II classroom

ladyalicia — Sat, 12 Nov 2011 14:48:16 +0000

One of the channel islands is definitely looking like the most likely spot for the lighthouse.

Re: World War II classroom

FairytaleEnding — Sun, 13 Nov 2011 04:25:54 +0000

Okay, thanks :)

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Sat, 12 Nov 2011 20:59:56 +0000

Okay, the channel islands were truly weird places during the war. They were occupied by the Germans, but remained almost completely un-affected by the war. The English made little effort to recover them, partly because they saw no reason to make them a battlefield. They, ironically, had little military value to either side. The Germans stationed some air-sea rescue boats there, but the garrisons were small. Life remained largely unchanged. Here is the wiki page you'll want...and it has been reviewed by at least three members of the Germany Project team, one of which is a very good friend of mine. He told me I didn't need to check it further...so I didn't. Given that, I'd be pretty sure it's accurate. The occupation might blow your plot idea...but... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_the_Channel_Islands

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Sun, 13 Nov 2011 21:46:15 +0000

Thanks for your input here. I think I should clarify what little difference we seem to have. The channel islands did suffer from shortages and the "usual things" that went on during the war. No doubt. However, given the German occupation of the islands, the occupation troops and commanders were unusually light handed in the way they did things. There were, according to at least two sources, several families of Jews on the islands, and no attempt was made to bother them at all. They weren't forced to wear stars, and not attempt was made to take them to camps. For the most part, the Germans went about their business, and the islanders went about theirs. Some communication was limited, because the Germans obviously didn't want spies operating, but the islanders had far more freedom than almost any other occupied areas, and considering what Hitler had planned for the occupation of Britain, this was almost a polar opposite. The locals were able to continue their businesses, and the Germans didn't confiscate much of any property. They did limit the fishing boats to some degree, but at times that simply meant the boats couldn't leave harbor with more than a few gallons of fuel...to ensure they couldn't make it across the channel. In turn, the English pretty much just allowed things to remain that way, seeing little value in destroying the places to make a point. There were some marriages between sides for the troops stationed there, and most people just got on with life as best they could. I definitely agree that hiding the German on the channel islands makes no sense. The only possibility might be that he doesn't want to go back to war. Tough act to carry on for very long though.

Re: World War II classroom

ladyalicia — Sun, 13 Nov 2011 23:01:34 +0000

Thank you both so much for your help! I'm haven't been able to find very much about lighthouses around this time but one in particular caught my eye when I was looking for some around the channel islands, I did come across the lighthouse of Les Casquets which is 13 km/8 miles off the coast of Alderney*. Though it doesn't look how I imagined my lighthouse to look, I've found out it was used as an observation post and transmitter site. It's possible that something similar could happen with my lighthouse and maybe the airman is only there until the men intending to make the lighthouse a German post arrive. For my sanity, I'm going to have my lighthouse be off the coast of a fictional channel island for the time being and, when I come to do my revisions, either use the details of one of the real islands or move it somewhere different depending on how my story turns out. I've been watching Island at War with Philip Glenister today both to unwind a little and give myself a bit more of an idea of life on the channel islands during the occupation. I'll definitely have to look out for that Michael Morpurgo book that Eriadriel suggested, though I may not have time to read it this month. As for my doctor, what I know of his backstory so far is that his grandfather was the lighthouse keeper and it's likely that he's spent most of his life at the lighthouse and on the island that it's off the coast of. His grandfather's been ill and I think by the time the Germans arrive he's either died or been evacuated. So my doctor's been dividing his time between the hospital and the lighthouse, probably still living there but with other people doing the keeper's duties when he can't be there until the time it's closed down for the war. * http://www.photographers-resource.co.uk/A_heritage/Lighthouses/LG_CI/CI_Casquets_Lighthouse.htm http://www.trinityhouse.co.uk/lighthouses/lighthouse_list/casquets.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casquets

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Mon, 14 Nov 2011 01:14:26 +0000

If you can find them, there are some pretty good pictures and descriptions of the channel islands during the war in the Time-Life WWII series. It's not a specific book, and I'll try to see if I can find which one(s) they're in.

Re: World War II classroom

Sprog — Tue, 22 Nov 2011 00:20:45 +0000

Google "Jersey Under the Swastika" to get a feel for what life was really like during the German occupation of the Channel islands. A softer occupation than on the Continent, but people were executed for trying to escape, severe hardships, shortages were endemic and Jews and other enemies of the state were sent to concentration camps to be killed...

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Fri, 18 Nov 2011 06:44:40 +0000

Ironically there is a pretty simple option for your problem. There were numerous storehouses of food, uniforms, and other goods all over what was left of Berlin. They were under military control, most often the SS but sometimes even the Gestapo. As the Russians advanced, many of them were fired by the guards, under orders to leave nothing usable for the Russians. Considering the civilians were struggling to find anything to eat, the decision was incredible. However, by that time Hitler had given up and declared that since his people had failed, they should just die with him. They had proved themselves unworthy. So...I would probably put your characters in a place to loot one of those warehouses. Many of them were, primarily by people who told the guards to "go to hell" and then simply started taking things. In some cases, the guards shot a few of them, but were quickly overcome. In other cases, the guards just gave up and allowed it. There were even cases of guards who tossed their weapons aside and accepted offers from the civilians to hide them from the teams hunting "deserters." Weapons were all over the place, often the result of casualties. There were some warehouses with stocks remaining, one significant one was down by Templehof. Again, it was largely the discipline of the German military that mandated such things were only issued with proper orders, even if unarmed men were standing outside the doors, expected to fight without weapons. Weapons weren't much good on the black market until after the war. The Russians didn't seem to be interested in them much, partly because they were more interested in consumer goods that were unavailable or unknown in Russia. They took watches, bicycles, and stuff like that. The troops from Mongolia and the far east even took things like light-bulbs...they didn't understand electricity and thought they could take the bulb home with them it would magically supply light anywhere. On the other hand, once the western allies, especially the Americans, arrived in Berlin...July of 1945, the black market for things like Lugers thrived. That pistol was probably the most popular souvenir for a lot of them, and they certainly would have been willing to trade their rations for them. Chocolate was common, as were cigarettes, but almost anything was possible. As the tough times continued, more and more personal items were offered...and almost any personal possession was bargained. The family heirlooms such as china and silver, things like cameras and even furniture became trading stock.

Re: World War II classroom

svetkar — Fri, 18 Nov 2011 07:59:10 +0000

Grand Poobah: Thanks for confirming my doubts about the black market value of firearms in pre-battle Berlin! Looting of stores, railroad trains and warehouses is mentioned in many sources, but my issue is that I wouldn't want the looting episode to look contrived, like this: Day 1: A neighborhood air raid warden threatens to report the characters; Day 2: Rumors spread in the neighborhood about stocks somewhere up for grabs. The residents, including my characters and the unfriendly air raid warden from the same neighborhood, rush there; Day 3: The pesky air raid warden is bribed to keep her mouth shut. (I doubt it would make much sense since she'd have the same stuff from the same source). If the characters have something they could barter for food although they'd rather keep the thing, then it would look less contrived. Any ideas? Also, I would note that, although Germans referred to Asian-looking Soviet troops as Mongolians, they weren't from Mongolia. Mongolia was a separate country not involved in the war. Those troops were either Central Asians (Kazakhs, Uzbeks, Tadjiks, Turkmens, etc.) or Asian etnicities from the Volga River (Kalmyks, Bashkirs, etc.).

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Fri, 18 Nov 2011 17:41:00 +0000

Blockwarts, the common (and derogatory) term for Block Wardens...or Air Raid Wardens, were often people with a significantly inflated sense of self-importance. Like many petty Nazi officials, they were often people who would have been on the margins of society except they now had "authority" and they tended to abuse it. "I can order you to...." So, it would not be at all out of character for yours to make threats. Usually there were often rumors about "secret stocks" of food, etc, and they usually came about because a bombing raid (typically earlier in the war) had hit a warehouse and the secret was "discovered." People got to the point where they "knew" the things existed, but were still docile enough to follow orders. That traditional orderly German society started to really break down in Berlin about the first of March. It was clear to everybody how the game was going to play out, and only the die-hard Nazis continued to pretend it wasn't true. People began to openly challenge things, and Blockwarts were often the targets...both for "today" and for things they'd done in the past. "In a few weeks we're all going to be dead, so I don't care what you tell me any more. What are you going to do about it?" The only change I would make would be to forget the bribe on day 3. She's as guilty as the others, and if necessary I'd simply have someone challenge her on that point. "Oh...and exactly how will you explain the stuff you've got? Maybe the Gestapo will string you up as a deserter." Given the situation, and the over-all lack of governmental control, the Blockwart would probably back down. I know of at least one case, over in the embassy district south of the Tiergarten, where the locals simply challenged the soldier guarding the place with "Well, are you going to shoot us all? Do you have enough ammunition?" And those were soldiers in uniform, not a civilian Blockwart. I could easily see a conversation.... "We could trade the clothes we found in ****'s flat. She's dead, and lots of people could use them." "True, but let's see if the rumors are true. That building down on *** Strasse supposedly has tins of meat and *** said there was butter there too." You're correct about the actual country of Mongolia...but for the most part the term was used generically, simply to refer to the troops from the east of Russia. Their appearance was clearly not "white European" so they were just lumped into that general description, much the same way the term Germania was used centuries before "Germany" existed. They were typically not front line units, although there are exceptions, and when they arrived the commissars tended to turn them loose, allowing or ignoring the abuse, looting, etc. While I don't remotely accept it, I can understand some of that attitude given the German actions in the east prior to that time. The eastern front was hardly a civilized war compared to the western battles.

Re: World War II classroom

svetkar — Fri, 18 Nov 2011 22:50:23 +0000

Grand Poobah, Thanks for more ideas. The blackmail twist would work even better than a bribe. My impression from what I've read is that Central Asian soldiers frequently were the underdogs of the Slavic-dominated Red Army. Many of them barely spoke Russian when they were drafted, and many came from rural Muslim communities still governed by largely Medieval traditions. That reflected in their behavior in the conquered territory, and their commanders didn't have much desire to exert themselves and rein the Asians in after the military objectives were accomplished.

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Fri, 18 Nov 2011 20:58:39 +0000

Prior medical training wasn't required after the war began. Prior to that time, many female nurses were recruited from the nursing schools. For the most part, high school graduation was required, primarily with the idea of screening out those who likely couldn't pass the necessary training. That was different than the requirements for male enlistment...16 with parent's consent, or 18 otherwise. At one point, 17 and graduated from high school was acceptable too. Typical female nurse would likely be 18 at enlistment, although older was not uncommon. She would receive a much-modified basic training...mostly the classroom stuff regarding military life and rules. Depending upon exactly where and when, she would then be sent to school to "become a nurse." It wasn't as comprehensive as a typical RN program in the civilian world, and more focused on dealing with wounds and trauma than diseases and such. Field hospitals were somewhat similar to the later MASH units, and the original MASH units...although not called that...were developed during the last year or so of the war. Field hospitals followed the front, although usually not within artillery range of the MLR. In Europe, they were often set up in the buildings of a town. They seldom employed female nurses, although some were present. If you want a good sense of what they were like, there are a couple of good examples. In the movie A Bridge Too Far, there is a short scene in a true Field Hospital that reflects accurately a real event. Also, in one episode of Band of Brothers...the Bastonge siege...you can get a pretty good feel for how the overall medical system worked. In the Pacific, most field hospitals were supported by hospital ships, since the islands weren't big enough to allow a hospital until they were completely pacified. There were several true hospitals located at major bases as the war progressed, and Pearl Harbor and Australia were the best amongst those. Women were employed in those, and later at some of the larger US bases in places like Ulithi and Guam/Tinian. As for "real numbers" I think, between the US and Enlgish forces in Europe after D-Day there were probably a maximum of 15 to 20, depending upon exactly how you define the term. Those forces also used existing hospitals in France and the Benelux countries as the front moved further east. The wiki article on field hospitals has not been reviewed by any working group and includes some rather vague information that seems to blend WWII information with other things. I wouldn't recommend it but it does include some possibly usable links. This page http://www.50thfieldhospital.co.uk/50thhistory.htm includes some usable information about typical formations and their deployment. It should also give you some additional sources for the data you need. If you need more help, just IM me.

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Mon, 21 Nov 2011 23:07:59 +0000

Well, let's see what you've created. My first thought is that a civilian woman could never be a POW. The term Prisoner of War applies only to combatants, which she wouldn't be. Civilians would simply be interned for the duration, or possibly allowed to be exchanged. Even the Japanese, who were generally not big believers in human rights during WWII, treated the European civilians that they ended up with reasonably. Although it's not directly related to your question, you can get a good sense of that in the movie Empire of the Sun. Now, back to the rest of the questions. If she's French/American, I'm guessing she'll have dual citizenship. But, the bigger problem, at least based upon my reading of your idea, is I have no idea who her father would negotiate with. WWII started with Germany invading Poland. At that point, neither Italy nor France were involved. In 1940 the shooting war came to the west, and Germany attacked France (and, by proxy, England). To that point, Italy was still on the sidelines. When France was all but finished, Italy jumped in, making a minor attack in the south and gaining almost nothing. When the cease-fire was called, Italy gained a small area of occupation in the south of France, most noticeably the city of Nice. At this point, the "villa in Italy" wouldn't have been involved in any way, and the Italians likely wouldn't have much cared about somebody living there unless her father was somehow directly involved in the war. That situation remained pretty much stable until the end of 1941, when, due to the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, the Americans entered the war. For reasons that still remain unclear, Hitler immediately declared war on the US, and Italy, which was largely Hitler's lap dog by now, did the same. So...now you would have a potential civilian to intern. However, the Italians likely wouldn't have taken any action, and the Germans weren't actually "ruling" Italy as they did later. Once the war reached the Mediterranean, things would begin to change. The Allied landings in North Africa and then Sicily meant the Germans took a more active role in Italy, and someone might have noticed her existence. Assuming some "negotiation" had taken place with the Italian authorities, the German "authorities" wouldn't have cared what agreement was made. However, unless somebody made a big deal of it, it's entirely possible they'd be ignored. They would be affected if the front moved through the area...as would any and all civilians. You could look at the landings at Salarno and Anzio and see if you're going to place her in harm's way. By now, it's 1944 and Italy is about to throw in the towel. When they did, the Germans took over the northern part of the country and slowly retreated towards the alps. If your villa is up north, they would be swept up in the combat, but likely just mixed in with the other civilians in the area. For the sake of discussion, I'm assuming she's not Jewish. However, up to this point it wouldn't have mattered too much. If she was in the north when the Germans took over, it might matter, and her nationality would be the least of her worries. As for the "servant of an Italian General" idea, there are a couple issues. First, while the area was under Italian control, it would never matter. If, as described above, it came under German control, things would be worse...because the entire Italian military was on Hitler's bad list once the country capitulated without his approval. Italian generals were high on that list, and whatever "deal" had been struck, assuming there was one, would be completely irrelevant. It is unclear why her mother would be suspected of being a part of the resistance. The resistance existed solely within the occupied territory of France. Beyond that, if she were actually active in defying the Italians or later the Germans, she would be considered a spy, and tortured and executed upon capture. It is likely any relative of hers would be similarly dealt with. However, given what little I know of her situation, it seems unlikely she'd be suspected, or even able to join the "resistance" unless she was really a cowboy, and that's relatively unlikely. Now...having said all this, the First World War would be completely different. Italy was a part of the Triple Alliance prior to the war, supposedly bound to Germany and Austria/Hungary. However, the treaty said they were obligated if any member was attacked by Russia or France. The assassination of the Arch Duke did not qualify as an "attack" on the country, so Italy made the choice to stay out of the war initially. in 1915 they were induced to join the western allies in a secret deal that involved a sizable loan and the promise of colonies after the war, and eventually they raised an army and attacked Austria/Hungary. During the rest of the war darn near nothing was accomplished on that front. They immediately resorted to the same trench warfare found in France, and since the Italians couldn't/didn't push the deal, the Central Powers were content to just hold the line. Towards the end of the war there were a couple more battles, but realistically nothing came of them. Assuming your villa was somewhere in the south, nothing whatsoever would have happened beyond experiencing some typical war-time shortages and rationing. There were a few battles in the eastern Mediterranean, primarily in and around Turkey, but otherwise the area was unaffected. Her status wouldn't have mattered since Italy was never at war with either France or the US. Okay, hopefully this information will help. If you need more, just IM me.

Re: World War II classroom

DancesWithWritersBlock — Tue, 22 Nov 2011 03:07:51 +0000

:O...wow, you obviously know your stuff!!!! lol koodo's to you. Well I guess it's not worth it, huh? Like I said it was just a random brainstorm that was forming in my head...I always thought i was pretty good at history in high school but never as good as to knowing ALL THAT! Anyway, I suppose there's absolutely no way the plot of it could be possible? lol I must seem very dense to you. But I guess that's the problem with being a writer, plot is great, thinking about writing it is even better, but if the history isn't even CLOSE then its kind of pointless. I really like this plot idea though, what if I changed his nationality? haha, German, perhaps? Or would that be worse? I really appreciate all the help; and hey, you could be helping me from wasting my time :/....Thanks

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Tue, 22 Nov 2011 21:46:44 +0000

Depending upon the exact date...which would be very hard to identify, nobody is "leaving" Berlin. The city was completely surrounded by the Russian forces for most of that timeframe, and even the German military had no idea where any open escape route might be. Even they couldn't get out...and those who tried ended up (mostly) dead. There were very few "private bunkers" in the city. They might have been hiding in an air raid shelter in the cellar of a building, but that's about the only option. By that time, most Berliners were. Now, assuming they could get out, they would be in "Russian territory." Everyone would have wanted to go west, towards the Western allies, but that was some distance away, entirely through territory controlled by the Russians. All the women...ALL THE WOMEN...would most likely have been immediately raped. Multiple times. Beyond that, the Russian troops would have demanded their wrist-watches, and looted anything else they might have been carrying. The Russians generally didn't much care about civilians otherwise, but it is not a journey that would end successfully. Once the war was over, their best bet would be to hold out, and secretly move into what would become the western occupation zones within Berlin. The Americans arrived in the city on the 4th of July, with the English and French about the same time. The simple answer is simply that they could not make a journey out of the city. As for what life was like.... In Berlin, once the war was over...from May through June...the city was hell. There was virtually no food, the Russians looted, raped, and stole everything and anything. In anticipation of the arrival of the western allies they completely stripped the western zones of anything and everything. They took the plumbing fixtures, electrical cable, power generating equipment, sewage pumps, and every piece of machinery they could find. They emptied the banks and took every available item, regardless of whether it was remotely useful to them. They wanted the Americans (and the others too) to leave Berlin to them, so they did everything possible to discourage the west from staying. The commissars turned the troops loose, and almost no woman escaped being raped...over and over again. Two examples: Women in Berlin began conversations with the words "How many times?" When the Russians built a memorial monument to themselves in the Tiergarten they termed it the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. Berliners still refer to it as the "Tomb of the Unknown Rapist." You make think I'm making this sound too terrible, but this is just a small idea of what went on in Berlin at that time. Life was essentially a process of 1)staying alive, 2)finding something to eat, 3)hiding from the Russians, and 4)hoping and praying that you're still alive tomorrow and that the Americans will hurry up and come save you. That's it. Nothing else. As for more information.... Berlin Command, by Frank Howley In the Ruins of the Reich, by Douglas Botting Berlin Todtentanz (Berlin, Dance of Death), by Helmut Altner Refuge in Hell, by Daniel Silver A Women in Berlin, by Anon Downfall, a movie by Bernd Eichinger If you need more, just IM me.

Re: World War II classroom

FairytaleEnding — Thu, 24 Nov 2011 09:52:50 +0000

Thank you very much for that information... I was worried they wouldn't be able to get out... I suppose now I'll have to change the plot a bit and keep them in Berlin a little while longer. How did the people hiding known when the war was over? And how did they know when the Allied troops had arrived? Currently, they are in a basement under an apartment building that was converted into a bunker in Charlottenburg. The have two radios: a People's Receiver and a broken regular radio.

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Wed, 23 Nov 2011 01:55:04 +0000

"Germans" didn't much care about "mixed marriages" amongst Aryans and "nearly Aryans." In that sense a German-Italian kid probably wouldn't be a big deal. However, Nazis cared a lot about such things. That particular combination wouldn't automatically exclude him from party membership, but it would make it more problematic. Remember, there were very few soldiers in the Nazi party. The ordinary foot soldier wouldn't have joined. Some officers would, and the higher in rank the more likely they would be expected to join, but it wasn't an automatic thing. The party would have looked at his application, his education, and his political reliability. They would have taken a look at his family lines, and maybe asked more questions about the Italian side, but as long as he didn't have Jewish blood somewhere back in the tree, he wouldn't automatically be excluded. The American military was somewhat tolerate of mixed-race soldiers. That said, the military in WWII was still strictly segregated, and Negros were not allowed to serve with Whites. They were also denied a combat role until late in the war. Mixed race Asians were more easily tolerated, at least until Pearl Harbor. Most Americans couldn't distinguish between Japanese, Chinese, and Koreans so after Dec 7th it would have been very rough. He could have been stationed at Pearl prior to the attack, but quite likely he would be re-assigned thereafter. There was little "official policy" about that that was ever written down. It was just "understood." Eventually the interned Japanese Americans were allowed to serve, but only in Europe. The 442 RCT served in Italy with great distinction, and became the most decorated outfit in the Army. The Negros known as the Tuskegee airmen flew in the Italian campaign, and reveled in the fact that they were the only fighter outfit to never lose a single bomber they were charged with escorting. Native Americans, primarily Navajos, served in the Pacific as code-talkers, and the Japanese were utterly confused by the language they used. In general, the attitudes toward these soldiers mirrored the attitudes of the country as a whole. Some were "tolerant." Some were intolerant. Some had simply never been exposed to other races and had no ideas. As they began to serve together in combat, some of those attitudes began to change, largely because it's hard to hate someone who's a different race when they just saved your life. After the war, President Truman issued an order integrating the military. It caused a lot of grief at the time, but it was clearly the right thing to do. The Civil Rights Act wasn't passed until the 60's, and even today, sadly, there are places where non-whites are still not considered equals. That thinking is hard to break down. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/09/mississippi-teen-deryl-dedmon-hate-crime-video_n_922357.html

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Thu, 24 Nov 2011 18:40:09 +0000

Within Berlin, the surrender was announced by sound trucks, largely because the power was completely gone, radios didn't work, and nobody was broadcasting anyway. The ultimate plan for occupation had been published by Dr Goebbels long before the end. He had managed to get a copy of it and used it as propaganda to show that the German people were scheduled to be subjugated after the war, thus hoping he could inspire them to fight harder. For weeks, Berlin lived upon rumors, and although the specific weren't known, they all knew the Americans were coming eventually. The English were not viewed as favorably, simply because everyone "knew" the Americans didn't have any territorial interests. Originally there wasn't going to be a French zone, but that changed and the boundaries were re-drawn within the area designated for the western allies to create one. Now, just nit-picking a little, but...they would be in a cellar under a building of flats. It wouldn't be a bunker, it would be an air-raid shelter. They would likely know that Charlottenburg was going to be in the western zones, although they might not know which one. That area was under Russian control fairly early, before the entire city was surrounded. I strongly suggest that if you're writing this time frame, you watch the movie Downfall. It will give you a far better sense of that time and what people were living with. It does not, unfortunately, extend beyond the date of surrender more than a few hours.

Re: World War II classroom

FairytaleEnding — Fri, 25 Nov 2011 05:37:24 +0000

Thanks again for the information :) Do you know around what dates the surrender was announced and the Soviets took over Charlottenburg? And thank you for the nit-picking! I'll change it to being called an air raid shelter now. The movie Downfall was one of the main inspirations for my story. I saw it on either the second or third day of November and changed my story completely. Although, perhaps I ought to watch it again.

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Fri, 25 Nov 2011 04:54:09 +0000

There are very few people who were actually present for the detonation of both atomic weapons. The most well known, at least in general circles, is a Japanese pilot who's name escapes me at the moment. He managed to fly his heavily damaged plane out of Hiroshima and ended up in Nagasaki at the "wrong time." His reports were significant in convincing the Japanese government to call it quits. You can find his story very well documented in The Fall of Japan. I'd dig out his name for you, but at the moment I can't locate my copy of the book...too many Berlin books out of the bookcase. "Regular transportation" would typically have been by train, and both cities were immediately cut off from the rest of Japan, partly due to damage and partly because the government didn't want people running around telling others about the horror of the new weapons. It would have been bad for morale. Because of that, the few that actually saw both blasts were mostly military, and very few of them survived the combination. Post war Japanese society came completely unglued in the big cities. All of the traditional anchors were destroyed...family, relatives, the concept of social responsibility all were damaged. People were forced to deal with the defeat, which was unthinkable. Many military men committed suicide, since that was acceptable and losing the war was not. The civilians were largely cast adrift. Their government had controlled them, and now they'd been told the government was wrong and had lied. The Emperor had been considered divine for centuries, and now...suddenly...he wasn't. He was supposedly a direct descendant of the Gods, and now he became a mere mortal. The cities, almost without exception, had been leveled. Their sacred land was occupied. Things could hardly be bleaker. Step one of surviving was to find enough food, and most people managed to do that. However, nobody got fat, and the diet was pretty limited. Those nearer the ocean still had some limited ability to fish, but they had to import rice...not a good thing. The occupation forces helped somewhat, but they didn't really attempt to feed the masses. As for the job...she would have been looking for anything, and likely news and rumors would have carried her to meet with the Americans. Although there were many Japanese-Americans who had dual language skills, they were not truly welcomed in Japan. They were, after all, considered traitors to the race, so what locals that could be recruited were used where possible. MacArthur's relatively enlightened rule actually went a long way towards the ultimate transition to peace and an elected government. His experience in the Asian countries meant he understood some things that a heavy-handed ruler would have screwed up. If you find a copy of American Caesar you can learn a great deal about that time and how MacArthur approached the challenge. He was a pompous ass, but he did do a good job during the occupation. she wouldn't have been "recruited" in the conventional sense, but if she's smart she'f most likely see an opportunity and seize it. Initially, "working" in the ordinary sense wasn't real common. Farmers still farmed, but most manufacturing and retail was gone, so those people just cleaned up the area and tried to find things to do until the economy was slowly put back on its feet. If you need more, just IM me.

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Fri, 25 Nov 2011 07:35:35 +0000

Berlin formally surrendered on May 2, 1945. It was supposedly effective at 1300 that date, although spot fighting continued here and there for a couple days. It's impossible to identify when a sound truck might have made the rounds in any given area outside of Mitte, so I can only guess when people in Charlottenburg would have heard, but for the most part the fighting would have passed through that area earlier. Helmut Altner speaks of abandoning the Charlottenbrücke on the 26, and the fall of Ruhleben on the 27th, so the Russian date is probably pretty close. Charlottenburg was taken, according to at least one Russian account, on or about April 26. However, that date must be taken with a large dose of skepticism. The Russians had no idea where traditional borough boundaries were, and there were few who could read or speak German. In fact, there were few who could read or write Russian for that matter. There were two major prongs to the Russian attack, one swinging south, across Templehof, and thence around the southern edge of the built up area. A second, smaller, and later attack swung around the north, taking Pankow and swinging wide up to Spandau. Eventually they linked up in the west and then squeezed the whole Hexenkessel. Isolated places were left un-conquered, such as the Zitadelle at Spandau. The Russians wisely decided it simply wasn't worth the effort, and just kept the place surrounded. Also, it's important to remember that the Russians didn't know Hitler was in town. They had little concrete information about the Chancellory, and knew nothing of his underground bunkers. The main Russian target was the Reichstag, believing it to be the symbolic center of the German government. Of course, it wasn't, and for the most part it hadn't even been repaired after the fire, but it was still a great symbol, and the Russians made a great deal of taking it. It wasn't until after the surrender that they "discovered" that Hitler, Goebbels, and the others had been in town.

Re: World War II classroom

svetkar — Fri, 25 Nov 2011 07:36:06 +0000

Berlin surrendered on May 2nd, and the capitulation of Germany was signed on May 8th. Charlottenburg saw especially bitter fighting from April 28 to April 30th, when 2nd Guards Tank Army worked its way through the district toward the center of the city. "Race for the Reichstag" by Tony Le Tissier does a good job describing the battle action in Berlin by district and date. It also has very helpful maps. If your characters were in a basement shelter, they would certainly notice when Soviet tanks rolled down their street. There would be the characteristic clanking and scraping of the tank tracks on the pavement, their engines roaring and the ground would shake. From my experience, I know that one can hear tanks going down an asphalt road from as far as one kilometer (1 mi = 1.6 km) from the road. At first, your civilian characters might not understand what the sounds meant, unless there was someone familiar with tanks in the shelter. Also, it was recommended for the Soviet tank teams to move in formations of 4 rows, 2 tanks in a row. The first two tanks would fire along the street, the second pair of tanks was supposed to provide support fire for the first two tanks, the third pair of tanks fired at upper floors and attics of the buildings along the street to eliminate sniper or Panzerfaust fire, and the last pair of tanks fired at anything left after the other tanks. Your characters would hear and feel all that in their air raid shelter.

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Fri, 25 Nov 2011 07:37:58 +0000

Thanks for adding this. Pretty much agrees with the timeline I've seen.

Re: World War II classroom

FairytaleEnding — Sat, 26 Nov 2011 07:29:58 +0000

Thank you both for the information! This will all really help my story :) So, once Germany had surrendered and the western allies had taken over their territories, what happened to the people in them? Was it safe to go outside again? Also, is there any way that people in Berlin would know who had died during the battle?

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Sat, 26 Nov 2011 08:31:27 +0000

I'm assuming your question deals with the western zone of occupation in Berlin, because the answers for the zones that became West Germany are very different. Was it safe to go outside? Yes, and no. Initially, the Russians continued to wander all over Berlin, and they considered the zonal boundaries insignificant. Although the incidence of rape and assault generally declined, there were still incidents. In time, the Americans and English began to take a different approach. The Americans, still perhaps somewhat idealistic, would arrest the Russians and then turn them over to their own people, blindly expecting they would be punished. In most cases, the Russians took them back, turned them loose without any punishment, and just laughed at the naive Americans. The English, perhaps more worldly, usually just beat them soundly and then tossed them back over the zonal boundary. That was probably more effective, even if slightly...contrary to law. Slowly "safety" returned to the western zones. However, the Russians still terrorized the population as a whole, and they would drive into the western zones, which was allowed by treaty, and abduct people who they wanted. Usually it was done to take out political operatives they didn't like, although others, such as judges who refused to rule the "right way" were also targeted. In some later cases, people were abducted and sent to Russia to "work." That usually meant skilled labor to operate factories that the Russians couldn't operate themselves. Up until the fall of der Mauer in 1989, Russia continued to see East Germany as simply a slave economy, operating solely to support the Russian economy (since they couldn't operate their own successfully) and all Germans as an available pool of slave labor. This was also true within East Germany and the view of the East German regime. You can look into the forced labor in the East German uranium mines as a great example, where thousands of people were forced to mine the ore without regard to their health. Thousands died, and a whole region was contaminated...but...the important part was that Russia got the ore they needed for their weapons program, and a few thousand Germans more or less didn't much matter. You can also look at the history of the Luftbrücke to see how Russians treated Berliners in 1948-49. Also the uprising in 1953 would be a good example. Der Mauer was built to stop the flight of the population, and at the time East Germany had a situation that was previously considered impossible: A rising birth rate and a falling population. Why? Because the people were fleeing the regime. Although the border between East Germany and West Germany was sealed, it was still possible to cross in Berlin, hence der Mauer. You can look at the history of the Marienfelde refugee center to get some idea of the scope of the problem. As for death notices: The Third Reich was actually pretty good about providing notice until sometime after the end of the Watch on the Rhein offensive at the beginning of 1945. That was less true on the eastern front. For the most part nobody knew who was alive, who was dead, and who was a POW. Oddly, if fell upon the Americans to report to the public the names of people in the Russian POW camps. They also reported on deaths in the camps. The Russians were only partially obligated to free the POW's, and chose to claim the people they still held were actually "criminals." Of the nearly 200,000 who went into the camps from the surrender of Stalingrad, only 5000 ever returned to Germany, and most of those were finally freed in 1954 and 1955. As for people who might have died in the Battle for Berlin, there might be some information since German civilians were forced to clean up the city (by the Russians) and they made some effort to identify the bodies as they worked. Many, however, could not be identified, and in many cases, civilians who had been killed in the bombing and shelling were simply in pieces and unidentifiable. It became one of those things were at some point you just assumed they were dead, and most likely you were right. One last thought: After the western zones were established, the Russians did not stop Berliners from moving into those zones. It lightened their own load since each ally was responsible for feeding their own zone, and it also (in their view) made things harder for the western allies. The whole plan was to force the others out of Berlin. By and large that program continued, in one way or another, until der Mauer went up.

Re: World War II classroom

svetkar — Sat, 26 Nov 2011 23:15:16 +0000

[quote] Also, is there any way that people in Berlin would know who had died during the battle? [/quote] A little tidbit that could help you. It was common for Berliners to scribble notes to their family and friends on the remaining parts of a bombed building so the latter could locate them. Something like this: "We are at the Muellers' in Rauchstrasse. Irma and Gretchen." "Aunt Liselotte is well and with us in Hermsdorf. Gerhard Schultz." In her book, "A Woman in Berlin" the author mentions notices posted on pillars in the local Rathaus by people searching for lost relatives. On April 30th, 1945, General Nikolai Berzarin, the Commandant of Berlin, issued an order banning the Soviet troops from taking residence in German homes without official permission and from looting Germans. The order also specified the curfews, restrictions for the civilian population and rules of operation for businesses, theaters and stores. The new order reduced assaults on civilians, although not completely. But the city became safer to move around. The author of "A Woman in Berlin" recounts her and her neighbor's trek across the city from Neukoelln to see their friends in Schoeneberg on May 10th, 1945. The two ladies walked all the way there and back without being harassed by Soviet soldiers.

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Sun, 27 Nov 2011 00:11:58 +0000

The notes that svetkar mentioned were very common, largely because people knew they couldn't be found where they had moved. People also posted notes about others. For example, in the old Jewish quarter, there were lots of postings saying "**** was killed at Auschwitz" or whatever. Mostly, obviously, they were death notices, usually posted by a camp survivor who had returned. Today, those same "notes" exist, but in a more formal setting. Many years ago, some volunteers began a process of identifying the places where Jews had lived prior to deportation. They then matched those records against the death records and began installing brass markers in the sidewalks all over Germany. They are simple things, stating only the basic information. They are commonly called Stolpersteine - literally Stumbling Blocks - a very fitting name. On some streets, they are literally everywhere. Here are some links to some pictures of them as they exist today. http://www.solarnet.tv/reports/view_report?id=33933 http://www.notevenpast.org/discover/gunter-demnigs-stumbling-blocks http://berlin101.com/2007/12/some-more-holocaust-related-memorials/ http://baytaschwarz.wordpress.com/2011/11/03/walking-on-history/ http://meiadeleite.com/tag/germany/

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Sun, 27 Nov 2011 00:03:03 +0000

The Great Black Market of Berlin was Potsdammer Platz. That's a bit of a ways away, but not impossibly far. Trade established there very quickly, and was pretty much ignored by the allies since they knew they couldn't stop it, and it probably made other things more reasonable. As tensions heated up leading to the blockade and Luftbrücke, the Russians tried to stop it to a degree, mainly because they didn't want to have "their rations" being sold to people in the West. Oddly, the Americans felt somewhat the same way. In any case, at one point the Russians sent a man to paint a white line along the true zonal boundary, and then they began hassling people on their side. In the long run, it didn't really work though. There was also a secondary location...one of many...at the site of the original Oranienburger Tor, one of the original gates into the city from the north. The gate itself had been gone for a while, but people did congregate there. There is a U Bahn stop there, which was there during the war, and that line was one of the first to be repaired and put back into use, which probably helped drive some of the market. Today there is nothing much there beyond the usual jumble of buildings and streets. I think there might be a plaque on a wall at the U Bahn station, and some pictures if I remember correctly, but nothing beyond that.

Re: World War II classroom

svetkar — Sun, 27 Nov 2011 04:40:03 +0000

Grand Poobah, Thanks for the suggestions. Oranienburger Tor is closer to the area my story is set in, but is still a little too far away. I'll try to figure out how to make it work. By the way, here is an interesting British Pathe footage of a black market in Berlin and the police raid on it. Any idea where in the city it could be? http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=53782

Re: World War II classroom

FairytaleEnding — Tue, 29 Nov 2011 15:49:54 +0000

Thank you both so much for all of your information this month! I don't know what I would have done without you!

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Sun, 27 Nov 2011 05:12:35 +0000

Hmmm. The main crowd scene are big enough to have been in Potsdammer Platz, especially since the Russians are there. I'm not certain, but that would be my best bet. The last few scenes are in the Tiergarten...where you can see all the damaged trees in the background. Some of the other street scenes could be almost anywhere. There is one short clip that most likely is in front of the Reichstag. Otherwise, I'm purely guessing. I think there might be one shot of the Berliner Dom, which is on Fisher Island...or Museum Island depending upon which timeframe you're referencing. The island was the original home of Cölln, which was one-half of the original twin cities that became Berlin.

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Sun, 27 Nov 2011 05:18:34 +0000

It's interesting that in one of the other films they continually refer to the Reichstag as the "chancellery." The two were very different, and about 2 km apart.

Re: World War II classroom

svetkar — Wed, 30 Nov 2011 00:57:05 +0000

Grand Poobah, Thank you for your help! My first thought was that the whole footage was filmed in the same spot, but now I know it shows different places!

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Tue, 29 Nov 2011 20:59:23 +0000

The answer to this, assuming you're not a conspiracy buff, is very difficult. Much like the 9-11 attack, some of the pieces were there, but simply unrecognized. With perfect hindsight, it's possible to assemble them and make an educated guess, but looking at them as they were assembled it's highly unlikely anybody in the US "knew." I strongly suggest you find a copy of At Dawn We Slept, which is the whole bible of Pearl Harbor. Therein you can find everything known, who knew it, and what they did with it. There were many stumbles along the way, and in some cases things were pretty close to utter incompetence. For example, many believed Pearl Harbor was too shallow for a torpedo attack, even though the British had attacked the Italian fleet in a similar harbor and proved it could be done. Part of that result was the lack of torpedo netting. In any case, conspiracy buffs have often linked the whole thing to a single statement which Roosevelt made...that if war was to come he preferred that the other side make the first move. Given the political divisions of the time, it was a perfectly rational statement. Roosevelt was a consummate politician, and recognized that he couldn't lead a divided country into war. It certainly didn't mean that he was willing to sit back and watch as Pearl Harbor happened. I cannot recommend that book too strongly. It is a wonderful book, that looks at both sides and pulls no punches.

Re: World War II classroom

Jack Fisher — Sat, 07 Apr 2012 02:54:40 +0100

[quote=KeithNelson] Question- what evidence is there that Roosevelt, if any evidence, that he knew about Pearl Harbor ahead of time (which I don't belive.) [/quote] Nothing real. The conspiracy theory people rely on innuendo, poorly researched primary source documents and confuse argument with evidence; all of it out of context. If I were going to write PH historical fiction, I'd have the "Winds Alert" message intercepted or the "Bomb Plot" intercept timely forwarded to the Hawaii command. FYI "At Dawn We Slept" is horrendous scholarship.

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Thu, 01 Dec 2011 23:00:12 +0000

In a word: Zip! First, at the moment he got into the plane it was a one-way ride. He knew that. Assuming he successfully got within range of a target ship, he would being a high-speed dive, planning on crashing his plane, loaded with remaining fuel and a bomb of some sort into that big metal object. If he isn't killed or the plane damaged prior to impact, obviously he's dead when he hits. If he actually "misses" his target, either because his plane is driven off course or made uncontrollable by flak, the rest of the physics involved still apply. He will hit the ocean at a speed most likely near or about 200 mph. He will not have a parachute, so he has no option to "bail out" prior to the crash, and he's not attempting a "soft landing" on the water. Hitting water is not significantly different than hitting the steel of a ship. In addition, it's likely the bomb will go off on impact, so that's that. Now, assuming for the moment that he actually did physically survive landing in the ocean, a new set of problems arise. He has no survival gear whatsoever, so no flotation device, no raft, no radio, no rations of any kind, and nothing to help him. Assuming he could remain afloat, which would likely require that he crash and not be injured or knocked out, it is remotely possible the American ship might pick him up. I think during the entire war that happened a few times, but those weren't suicide flights. Now, all that said, let's look at the social implications. He could never return to Japan. He would be considered by society and his family as a total failure. There were few Japanese prisoners taken during the war, mainly because it was considered dishonorable to fail to die for the Emperor. Of those who were captured, usually because they were injured on the battle field, most didn't want to return to Japan after the war, and most demanded that the US not even notify Japan that they were prisoners. It was the ultimate failing in a society that would never forgive them. So, given the most improbable outcome, that he survives hitting the ocean in the first place, he would never seek to survive. He might float around for a while, but otherwise he would not seek rescue. I don't believe a single suicide pilot was rescued during the war, although I'm not certain that every one was ever accounted for. There are many who flew off and then just "disappeared" with no American record of downing the plane or seeing an attack. I'm not certain of the meaning of your statement "he is notorious for returning from his flights." If by this you mean that he has been assigned previous suicide flights and returned from them, that is factually untrue. No one returned! In some cases, "regular" pilots were sent along to shoot down anyone who failed to carry out their mission, but the moment he landed he would have been..."dealt with" by the military. See the notes above regarding failure. The moment he was assigned to fly today, he was dead. As for injuries sustained...you can simply figure that they would parallel an automobile crash where the vehicle is traveling at 200 mph and strike a concrete wall. Most limbs sustain broken bones, massive head trauma, a broken neck, complete destruction of the chest and thorax, and just about everything else shredded. Other than that, I'm sure he'd be fine.

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Fri, 02 Dec 2011 20:09:50 +0000

Yes, although I may not be checking it quite as often. If you have something specific, you can always IM me. If you're likely to need more, IM me and I'll give you my direct email link.

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Tue, 13 Dec 2011 07:46:50 +0000

After the fall of France in 1940, Germany occupied a portion of the country, in general it would be described as the "north." A somewhat "independent" state was maintained in the south, and is generally identified as "Vichy" for the town where the new capital was established. Vichy France was only nominally independent and any major decision was subject to the approval of Hitler. As a sop to his erstwhile friend, Italy, which attacked France very late...when things were all but settled, was granted a small occupation zone, containing the city of Nice and a bit of land in southeastern France. There are a number of good maps available the show the original occupation zone boundaries. Travel between Vichy France and occupied France was not originally restricted much. Gradually that changed some, and the German policies regarding Jews were also instigated within occupied France. They were, however, largely enforced by local officials so some areas were more aggressive than others. Many Jews fled to Vichy, but were eventually rounded up when the entire country was occupied. An American in France at the time would have been "encouraged" to leave the country unless she had dual citizenship. In that case, it's hard to say if she would have revealed it. Being an American might have some benefit since the US was officially neutral at the time of the occupation, however, that would have limited effect beyond her ability (or freedom) to leave. Assuming she wanted to stay around she would be no different than any other French citizen. It is highly unlikely that she would be able to become a part of the resistance. In the beginning the resistance was largely a local concept, with little coordination between groups. Most groups were politically motivated, and, for example, the Communists had no use for the non-Communists, even if they were nominally fighting the same battle. That trait continued throughout the war. Shortly after the fall of France, the British attempted to develop their own "resistance" within France, with an eye towards gathering intelligence and guiding (or commanding) the operation. While they had some successes, they also had massive failures, partly because of the fractionalized political groups. It would be difficult for the girl to find a place to start, and people who might know "something" would be reluctant to share information with anyone they didn't know well. Trust was never extended, and too many resistants were killed by the Gestapo after someone ratted them out. I have no idea what you mean by "obtaining a military job." What military could she possibly work for? The Germans certainly didn't need her, and the military did very little "spying" in any case. The Gestapo would only recruit her if they thought she could supply information, a very unlikely event. The British military also didn't conduct intelligence work on the continent, and the MI-6 and XX would have had no way to recruit her, nor would the attempt to bring her to England absent some compelling reason to do so. Women worked in all the usual occupations during the war, and gradually moved into non-traditional jobs as each nation mobilized more and more men. That was less true in France because they were essentially out of the war after 1940. The Free French forces were almost exclusively men who had escaped from France prior to the fall. As a general idea I would suggest that you spend some time with the basic history of the war, to gain a better perspective on how all of these things relate.

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Wed, 14 Dec 2011 21:06:24 +0000

By June it just MIGHT be possible. The telephone system in Berlin was heavily damaged...just like everything else, but like the other things the Russians themselves needed, parts of it were quickly repaired. A certain element of that was based upon their desire to strip the western occupation zones, so things like telephone switching offices in the western zones were stripped, and often used as repair parts for the Russian zone. The long distance aspect would be tougher. Most lines through the rural areas weren't terribly effected since the nature of warfare doesn't damage them much unless a shell or bomb just happens to hit a pole or whatever. Only when the lines went through cities would they be likely damaged. Probably the real issue is creating a scenario where the character would have permission to make the call, since I really suspect the use of those lines would be pretty limited at that time. If s/he's some sort of official, or has some connections, then it's possible. If it's just a pure civilian, wanting to talk to a family member or friend, it might be a bit of a reach.

Re: World War II classroom

svetkar — Fri, 16 Dec 2011 23:43:18 +0000

Grand Poobah, Thanks a lot for your comments! It appears that many telephone cables were laid underground. I'm not sure how credible this source ( http://www.henderson-tele.com/vtm/de/de/1933-1948.html) is, but if it is, then there appears to be a good chance of some functioning telephone networks. I also came across occasional comments in Russian sources about having to dig in the ground to locate phone cables. If American officers were billeted with the MC's family in Leipzig at the time, would that make it more feasible for them to have a working telephone at home? They live in an area that suffered little bomb damage and have a very nice house (the MC's father was a professor at University of Leipzig)

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Sat, 17 Dec 2011 03:56:49 +0000

The lack of local damage and housing American officers certainly would help. A lot of the long lines were underground...something that the Americans used to their advantage in the great Cold War wiretapping escapade in Berlin itself. You can go here to read the amazing story. http://books.google.com/books?id=A8WoNp2vI-cC&pg=PA84&lpg=PA84&dq=berlin+cold+war+wiretap&source=bl&ots=ojpSsa-oT7&sig=XL1V0PyHte4FUZLLj8BQIjh-gr8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=8BHsTpHtB8bdiALI08DLBA&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=berlin%20cold%20war%20wiretap&f=false It was quite a dramatic event, and it seems the Russians knew about it for a while but delayed exposing it until it was politically valuable to do so. A section of the actual tunnel is preserved at the Allied Museum in Berlin. There's also a good book on the whole thing...that I bought while at the museum and can't currently find.

Re: World War II classroom

svetkar — Sun, 18 Dec 2011 07:03:16 +0000

Grand Poobah: This is an interesting piece of information! Thank you for sharing it.

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Fri, 23 Dec 2011 03:50:34 +0000

Rifles yes. Shotguns less so, but hardly unknown. Bird hunting, the primary use for shotguns, is not all that prevalent in Germany, although there are some regional differences. According to a couple of sources, most fowl that were/are eaten are farm-grown...such as the traditional St Martin's goose. Obviously chickens are similarly "grown and raised" domestically. There is some duck hunting, and a least one story I've read spoke of quail hunting.. In short, I don't think it would unlikely to find those weapons in common ownership. There are shooting clubs all over the country, which have century-long traditions. In fact recently one such club made waves when their "top marksman" wanted to bring his male partner to the grand ball after a competition. For what it's worth, the local club thought it was fine, but others in the region weren't impressed. http://www.thelocal.de/society/20110825-37189.html Given the lack of weapons for the Volkssturm when the end was near, it's likely that some men might bring what they had, not because they believed in the cause but because they wanted something with which to defend themselves. In Berlin, many were "sent into battle" without weapons, although it's unclear exactly what Gauleiter Goebbels thought they were going to accomplish. Sigh!

Re: World War II classroom

svetkar — Sat, 24 Dec 2011 06:37:57 +0000

Grand Poobah, Again, thanks for your help and an interesting article!

Re: World War II classroom

Nike Lennard — Sun, 25 Dec 2011 14:07:57 +0000

I disagree. It never was common in Germany to have firearms at home. We had at all times very strict laws against that. Of course hunters needet them, but hunting wasn't a sport everyone could participate in. Until the midth of 19th century hunting was a privilege of the nobles and even after one needet an allowance, that was called 'Jagdkarte' first and since 1934 'Jagdschein'. To get this Jagdschein one had to proof his knowledge when which game can be hunted, how much game can be shot, how to prevent diseases and so on. If you want to know more, google "Reichsjagdgesetz". But even if one had a 'Jagdschein' he needet a 'Jagdrevier' (which means an area where it's allowed to hunt) also. Just to own some ground doesn't gave (and doesn't give) you the right to hunt on that land, you need an extra permission. The 'Jagdreviere' were mapped by administration (Jagdbehörde) and one had to pay an annual fee to get one. Because of that there weren't much hunters in germany. A normal peasant had no use for a firearm, because he wouldn't have hunted but have called a professionell hunter (the "Förster") to shoot some crows e.g. But to mention are the 'Schießvereine' or 'Schützenvereine' nearly every village had at the end of the 19th century and that were in the 1930s integrated in the NSDAP. Their members had firearms, mostly small calibre rifles but also percussion rifles and ancient breech- and muzzleloaders. I don't know a statistic about private posessions of firearms but the DSB (Deutscher Schützenbund), one of the umbrella organizations lists the the number of memberships in the three biggest shooting organizations for the beginning of the 1930s: - „Reichsverband Deutscher Kleinkaliber-Schützenverbände“ (ca. 400.000) - „Kartell für Jagd- und Sportschießen“ (ca. 60.000) - „Deutscher Schützenbund“ (ca. 40.000) Of course there were more rifle-organizations integrated in the NSDAP. But even if all others together would have been as big as the biggest three, there wouldn't be more than a million members in total. And if you make note, that in many families the father as well as the sons were members of an assoziation, you'll come to much less than a million households with firearms before the war. And now count the losses of war ... As well I wan't to mention, that the posession of fire arms was prohibited by death penalty in the american and british zones (I can't speak for the russians, but I really don't think they would have been relaxter on that). My mother told me an anecdote from the village they were evacuated in: A horse broke his leg and they had to batter it to death with hues and picks because there were nothing else availlable. Even the axes were requiered because the britons were afraid Volkssturm or Werwolf could use them.

Re: World War II classroom

svetkar — Tue, 27 Dec 2011 07:40:09 +0000

Nike, Thank you so much for your perspective! I'll need to take this information into account, too. Was the situation with firearms in civilian possession the same in 30's Austria, especially in the mountains? My understanding is that rural people are more likely to have firearms if: - they live in remote areas and hunting is essential for their livelihood, especially if the road access is limited seasonally like winter (heavy snow); - in large wilderness areas they often need to protect themselves and their livestock from predators like wolves. My impression is that Austria would have more remote wilderness areas than Germany at the time. Would that be correct?

Re: World War II classroom

Nike Lennard — Tue, 27 Dec 2011 10:07:49 +0000

Sorry, I'm not much help in that point. I've no informations about living in Australia. But in general there wasn't any wilderness in germany in 20th century left. Ok some regions were pretty isolated, like the High Alpes for example. But because Germany was one of the most populated countries (about 135 people/km² in the years 1933-1945; Australia by now has 2,5 people/km²) nearly all ground that could be cultivated was cultivated and there were no wild beasts to fear (the last wolf was shot 1904, bears were extinct around 1835).

Re: World War II classroom

svetkar — Thu, 29 Dec 2011 22:33:19 +0000

Nike, Thanks for more insights! This information helps a lot. English isn't my first language either, and I know how easy it can be to confuse words in another language.

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Thu, 29 Dec 2011 02:41:18 +0000

Okay, first a suggestion. Since NaNo is over, please post new questions on the bottom of the thread. It's took nearly ten minutes to locate your post because it's buried in the middle of older discussions. Your questions don't seem to identify whether we're discussing civilians or others, and the answers will be much different. Travel from England to the US could only be done by ship, however, there was no civilian passenger service during the war once the US was engaged. As for the actual time for ship travel, it might be as little as 10 days in a so-called "fast convoy" or as long as 20 or more in a "slow convoy" especially if they stopped (as many did) in Newfoundland. The was a little bit of service to South America, but even that was limited, and few ships would accept "passengers." The more likely route would be to travel to Spain or Portugal, and then take a ship from there. Travel times were about the same...assuming you weren't torpedoed and sunk along the way. Crossing any border required special clearances, and additional papers and stamps. There were also exclusion areas where almost no one could go, for example, you needed special papers to be within 20 miles or so of the Swiss border. Assuming you could get those papers, you would likely be asked to show them many times. People didn't travel for "pleasure" so you'd also need some paperwork showing why you were there in the first place. Commonly, that might be an offer of a job, but strange things like a death in a family MIGHT allow a trip. Food the the KZ camps was usually some watery soup, made with some more or less rotten vegetables, a chunk of bread, often moldy, and maybe a cooked potato. Meat almost never unless someone caught a rat. If you go to the web site for Buchenwald you can find some specific information, but remember that Buchenwald was not a death camp and Triblinka was. Much different situation. Many did die or were killed at Buchenwald, but it wasn't specifically designed for extermination. At places like Triblinka, when people not selected became ill or too weak, they just got tossed into the next selection. Rent throughout the US was "controlled" during WWII, by the Office of Price Stabilization. You can find all their records here: http://www.archives.gov/research/guide-fed-records/groups/188.html Jobs then were the same as jobs now, with the notable exception that more and more women were leaving "home" and working in industry...jobs traditionally held by men. The usual "secretarial" stuff was around, but more and more women were working in factories. Even young women with little or no training were hired...because there were no other options and employers expected to have to train them. She might be building Liberty ships or working as a librarian...or anything in between.

Re: World War II classroom

autumnrabbits — Thu, 29 Dec 2011 03:12:57 +0000

I'm sorry about that mistake. Thanks for being patient! And thanks for all that info too. That'll help me alot.

Re: World War II classroom

Nike Lennard — Sat, 31 Dec 2011 15:14:53 +0000

Google is your friend ;-) [quote=TheHappyExplosionist] Which ships and U-boats where there? How many of them sunk and how many were damaged? [/quote] http://www.navweaps.com/index_oob/OOB_WWII_Atlantic/OOB_WWII_Weserubung.htm [quote=TheHappyExplosionist] First of all, how did the Germans approach Narvik? Did they encounter any sort of resistance? [/quote] Here you'll find some maps and a lot of background in the links: http://historicalresources.wordpress.com/2008/08/13/the-campaign-in-norway-maps-operation-weserubung-april-9-1940/ And no, there were not much resistance. [quote=TheHappyExplosionist] What would it be like for soldiers aboard the U-boats? [/quote] Cramped, hot and dangerous. If you understand some German, this site will give you a good impression. Else just have a look on the pictures: http://www.kbismarck.com/u-boot/ubordleb.htm [quote=TheHappyExplosionist] Where were the German naval ports, and how long would a man have been on a boat by the time they reached Narvik? [/quote] Naval ports were Swienemünde and Kiel but I don't know if the boats came from there or if they cruised elswere before. Hope, this helps a bit :-)

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Sun, 01 Jan 2012 02:57:56 +0000

Nike has already provided a number of good resources, but I'm surprised you've been unable to find much considering how many sources there are. For a general overview, and some answers to your specific questions, I'd begin with The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. In provides an excellent background in the political arena, along with many details of how the decisions to attack were made, and how the attacks were carried out. Resistance? Yup, there was a lot of Norwegian resistance, and, in short, the German Navy got clobbered. Many ships were lost...needlessly, and the overall success of the operation was never a sure thing. The ships involved sailed from Wilhelmshaven (Gneisenau and Scharnhorst), from Cuxhaven (Hipper, Paul Jacobi, and other destroyers), and from Bremerhaven (many of the destroyers). For more details, I would recommend Hitler's Naval War, which includes a whole chapter detailing the sequence of the Norwegian campaign. Although the battle was separated into numerous individual battles, Narvik being just one of them, taken in toto, the cost to the Germany Navy was significant. There is a complete list of vessels involved in that account. Another good source would be Weserübung, which includes information from both Swedish and Norwegian archives. Nike and I may disagree about the statement "Did they encounter any sort of resistance." While it is true that many garrisons were surprised and fled, others resisted, and while that battle in any one fiord might have been easy, others were not. For example, the operation (as a whole) cost the German Navy Blücher and ten destroyers, while damaging several other ships. The Blücher was sunk in the narrows by land-launched torpedoes. For the questions regarding U-boats, I'd head for a couple different places. The first, to gain a sense of what life was like, would be Das Boot, or the English translation thereof. You could also view the movie from that book. Although the timeline is later, life was much the same in U-boats throughout the war. U-boats were first and always machines of war. Little attention was paid to creature comforts beyond those necessary for survival. While Doenitz was very close to his crews and captains, the boats themselves were functional, first and always. They were a small space, containing a small number of men. Think of living for 60 days inside a phone booth...which you share with three other people. No where to run, no place to "get away" and no place remotely private. Wearing the same clothing for days on end, with or without the benefit of washing. They were cold...or hot. Showers were a luxury. They were hunted day and night. And, as the allied command of Enigma improved, they had less than a 50% chance of returning from any cruise. After a first few days out, they had no fresh food, so everything was canned or otherwise preserved. At this point in the war, the newest draft classes had just joined the military, especially the Navy, so the average age was about as high as it ever got. That said, a number of soldiers (Germany naval crews were called "soldiers" and the terms sailor or seaman was used only for civilian or merchant marine members) would have been completely new, coming directly from basic training and schools. They might be as young as 16 or 17, and the career men might be 50 or older. Most ships would have a mix of ages, but the average steadily declined over the course of the war.

Re: World War II classroom

TheHappyExplosionist — Sun, 01 Jan 2012 07:04:17 +0000

Thank you both so much! I knew the information was out there, but I am notoriously bad at finding it online. It's weird, seeing as I can usually find it in books, but the libraries in my area don't seem to like European history and I don't really want to spend more than twenty bucks on a six page short-story. Your help has been invaluable!

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Sat, 07 Jan 2012 10:15:03 +0000

Not in the order you asked, but here you go. German military ranks have actually changed very little since the war, but some have. Here is a list that provides the Wehrmacht ranks in order, along with some comparisons to American or UK equivalents. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_German_military_terms#List_of_German_military_ranks For the most part the comparisons are valid and close enough. The German Fähnrich/Oberfähnrich and Fahnenjunker don't quite translate, but the information in the chart is pretty close. In the US these ranks would probably most closely relate to senior cadets at West Point, but they're not used in that way in the US. It is possible for a Wehrmacht soldier to "transfer" into the SS, and then end up as camp guard. Possible, but not common. The SS was a separate military branch and often not connected ever through the command structures to the Wehrmacht. You could almost think of it as being like the Marine Corps, except the Marines share officers and command structures through the Navy. In any case, it could happen. The only plausible line to follow was that once a ghetto had been liquidated, those guarding it might have been considered to have "special skills" and hence given the chance to "transfer." It's also possible that he's in the SS to begin with, which would make the whole thing much easier. As for any specific first-person stories such as you describe, I've not seen one. However, I'm sure there are some...especially if you can read German. You might dig around on google.de (sometimes getting there can be hard, your profile doesn't say where you live). If you search there (will need to be in German) you can probably find some books. That sort of thing is often available on ebay, but you have to know what you want first. ebay generally can't find it otherwise. You might also IM svetkar...she might have come across something like that in her digging. I'd be careful to make certain of the timing, since the ghettos didn't begin immediately. If you want some good basics on the ghetto life, I'd suggest two books...both fiction, but very well researched. The first would be Mila 18, and the second would be Exodus, both by Leon Uris. The first is actually an expansion of a couple chapters in Exodus, but really fleshes out life in the ghetto from the Jewish point of view. However, by inference, you can learn a lot about the German side too. Very few of the movies are much good, although Shindler's List is accurate. If I can find anything else, I'll let you know.

Re: World War II classroom

C.K. Lee — Sun, 08 Jan 2012 07:37:11 +0000

Thank you so much! This is really helpful :)

Re: World War II classroom

Nike Lennard — Fri, 13 Jan 2012 19:31:43 +0000

Here is one link: http://einestages.spiegel.de/external/ShowAuthorAlbumBackground/a23527/l0/l0/F.html#featuredEntry

Re: World War II classroom

swallowfeather — Sat, 21 Jan 2012 19:24:37 +0000

They have a lot of things in English as well. Great stuff. Example: an article on a wartime diary http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,789900,00.html

Re: World War II classroom

Gadifere — Sun, 22 Jan 2012 18:25:40 +0000

I can only partly answer your question. From northern France into Belgium would not have been much of a problem, as both countries were occupied by the Nazi regime. However, from the moment the Nazi's occupied this area, all civilians had to carry papers of identification with them (it's a sort of passport). There were checkpoints throughout the area, mostly on strategic points such a bridges or roads into towns. Taking a route around those checkpoints could mean going cross country. Taking a train in those occupied countries did not exclude you from check points. They could just stop a train and check every passenger before the train could continue the journey. So while crossing the actual French-Belgian border might not have been an issue, travelling in the occupied west was laborsome, as there were many checkpoints and you needed papers to prove who you were, and - if far away from home -, have a legitimate reason to be there. Your Dutch character would need (falsified) papers for that. So next to a passport that everyone needed, he also needed some papers to show what he was doing and where he was going. as how the checkpoints themselves looked: it could just be a single pole as barrier, or a bunch of soldiers stopping the traffic (remember: traffic wasn't as much as it is nowadays and most civilians would have travelled by bike or foot). Those manning the check points were normally soldiers, Germans who were stationed in the neighboring towns. as early in the war as 1941, they usually only checked the papers, although if someone was travelling far, they might also be interested in searching his person and his luggage to see if he's carrying anything illegal. I hope this helps :)

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Sat, 31 Mar 2012 23:48:53 +0100

Border crossing, even between two occupied countries, were guarded, and papers checked. Now, to the specifics in your example. First, since he's Dutch, he going to have Dutch papers, showing his ID, a photograph, and some basics about him...date of birth, town of birth, current home (not necessarily his address, but at least his city/village/town) and possibly his religion. In late 41 that wasn't necessarily required, and they might still be operating with Dutch originals that didn't include it. Since he's in France, he's going to have some sort of paperwork to explain why. Is he seeking work? Does he have a job offer? Is he headed to relatives? Any travel that would have involved crossing from Holland into France would have required something. The same is true for entering Belgium. Where is he going, and why? If he can't supply something in writing, he's going to be detained until his story can be verified. He will also be searched, and possibly face some unpleasant questioning. If he's anywhere near a military installation, he would need a special pass for that. If he's anywhere near the coastline, he would need a pass for that. If he's traveling to relatives, he would be issued something that identifies exactly who he's going to see and where they live. "Family travel" wasn't disallowed, but it was regulated. If he's riding on a train, all of that will be inspected when the train reaches the border. If he's on foot or bicycle, the same when he crosses unless he goes cross-country. If he's caught having crossed and there's no record of him doing so, he's in trouble. In some places, the population routinely crossed back and forth. People lived in Belgium but owned farmland in France, or lived in one country but worked "across the street" in the other. The rules there were somewhat relaxed, but the troops stationed there quickly got to know who belonged and who didn't, so he might well be challenged if he simply tried to blend in. Now, all of that said, some areas were more "official" than others, and sometimes local troops just glanced and nodded. If the local threat level was low, things were more lax. If the local resistance was active, inspections got more tense. In other words, human nature took over. In a few places, German troops who had been "benevolent occupiers" were even encouraged by the locals to remove their uniforms and blend into the local town when the allies arrived. Even in war, humans can sometimes act humanely. Crossings were generally manned by German troops. There might be a local official there too, but seldom were important crossings manned solely by locals. Remember that crossing from France might well mean crossing through the West Wall, and that was always a restricted military zone, requiring a special pass. Even though the locals were allowed to drive their herds through the wall, strangers were suspect. The border between France and Spain was very different. In many ways it represented "the front." Germans could be very nasty about it, even before they occupied Vichy. On the other hand, they could easily look the other way, especially when they wanted to allow people back in. Spain and Portugal became the easy exit from Europe, so German spies were often spawned through that route...something that never really worked as well as the Germans hoped. The border was monitored for escaping POWs, resistance members, and Jews (later on). It was relatively porous, simply because Germany didn't have enough men to really create a wall. Cross country, if you knew the land, was reasonably easy. The checkpoints in cities, bridges, and roads were not.

Re: World War II classroom

swallowfeather — Sat, 21 Jan 2012 19:46:31 +0000

As a PS for precision: my first question, about the forging of documents in general, is about turning foreign nationals into French citizens. Not turning them into other nationalities for emigration but into French people for safety, erasing their identification as Jews. (Also these are almost all children.) So it's French ID documentation I need to know about.

Re: World War II classroom

swallowfeather — Sat, 21 Jan 2012 22:16:20 +0000

And another P.S. My co-author wants the young Irishwoman to send a letter to her father in the U.S. explaining that she gave her visa away. Is this safe enough that a reasonably cautious person would consider doing it? I have to wonder.

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Sat, 31 Mar 2012 23:27:23 +0100

French documentation in Vichy...prior to full occupation, was largely left to the French. Forgers were working...but it might be easier to find a corrupt official (there were lots of them) and simply bribe him to create a full set with what's needed. France, prior to the war, only required a basic form...more or less a "national ID card" sort of thing. It had a photograph and some basics. As I recall, it was issued at the regional level, and only indicated the city/town/village of residence...not a specific address. I don't think it had anything that indicated religion, nor parentage. In occupied France, the occupation required more...over time. The German system issued new papers, but largely similar to what the French had in place. The Germans would have added something...I don't recall exactly what...for Jews. I think, at least in the beginning, it was a big, overstamped "J" in red ink, similar to what was used in Germany at one point. They did not mandate the name changes which occurred in Germany proper. Being a woman, she could claim about anything she wanted for heritage, unlike a man who could easily be identified by his circumcision. At that time, in Europe, few males other than Jews were ever circumcised. In occupied France, and later in Vichy when it was fully occupied, papers would have expanded. There were occupational permits, and a whole bunch of regional things...usually like official permission to travel from place to place, or permission to live or travel with a zone near the borders. Special permits were always required to be near a military base or installation, and all along the seacoast permits were required to be too close to the shoreline. All of those required bunches of official stamps, usually a "rubber stamp" imprint countersigned by somebody important. The stamps usually overlapped the attached photograph for obvious reasons. If you got a set by bribing somebody, the cost could be anything. If the guy liked you, or knew you, he might do it cheap. If he was strictly in it for the money, he might be charging a lot. For a simple ID form it might be cheaper than a full set. Vichy was a place where corruption ran rampant, largely because the "government" wasn't really able to do much, knowing that everything they tried would endanger them. Doing the "wrong thing" would invite the Nazis to occupy all of France. Given that, at the local level there was often a "wink and a nod" at things, mainly just to avoid being noticed. Forgers could possible "print" the official forms, although they might be able to get them in other ways. Theft would be possible, and they could certainly bribe for them too. Filling them out wouldn't be hard, so replicating the stamps would be the only issue, and that's pretty clearly a simply task given enough time and somebody with some skills.

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Sat, 31 Mar 2012 23:28:20 +0100

Probably a bad idea. Mail to and from the US might well have been read...and you don't want to advertise that you're doing something "interesting."

Re: World War II classroom

Liza.M — Mon, 13 Feb 2012 00:44:40 +0000

Thank you for your answer, sorry it took me a while! Still have a lot of research to do but this forum is always a help.

Re: World War II classroom

Vorshan_Saintrowe — Sun, 04 Mar 2012 03:46:05 +0000

This subset of the Pegasus Archive contains stories compiled from Allied POWs - though most of them are British, owing to the nature of the Archive - regarding their stays in camps, German, Italian, and Japanese. I wouldn't be surprised if a man killed himself while locked up over shame, but there doesn't seem to be a lot of that told; then again, could be the accounts simply slid over that. In any case, there's usually other factors around to do the killing than oneself.

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Sat, 31 Mar 2012 23:07:00 +0100

There are many good sources available. I would start with a couple. Escape from Colditz and The Wooden Horse both provide some pretty good insights into the camps, the prisoner mentality, and daily life. These happen to be about camps for downed fliers, but the general threads run true except in the "camps" that were temporary near the front. The Russian POW's were treated much differently, and almost nothing you will find about the Eastern Front will apply well to the western allies. Could someone commit suicide? Yes. It did happen. Since that was considered pretty "disgraceful" you won't find it mentioned in most reports. In Colditz there is at least one "escape attempt" which was pretty clearly a suicide, with the individual involved knowing well he couldn't succeed, and attempting right in front of the guards he was almost certainly going to be shot. The writer makes it clear that he had reached the end of his rope. However, I should also point out that this man had been captive for a long time, had escaped several times before, and simply just "broke." While for the most part German POW camps were operated "reasonably" there were guards and commandants here and there that didn't play by the rules. Undoubtedly at least some reports of deaths were not "natural causes" or "died of wounds" but more likely from abuse, torture, and perhaps mental breakdowns. Some were possibly suicides, just reported in other terms. If you look at society as a whole...where there are suicides regularly, it's hard to expect there wouldn't be any in a POW population, especially if the individual feels that he failed in his duty and perhaps even caused the death or capture of his mates. That bond is very strong amongst soldiers, and THAT would be the shame that makes a man consider such an act. Suicide wouldn't have been common. But, it wasn't unheard of either. If you're going to include it, I would allow enough explanation to give the man a proper reason. Unless he was captured at Dunkerque, or possibly at Dieppe, an army man would have known about D-Day and have a sense that it was just a matter of time. Even long-term prisoners were reasonably aware of how the war was going, so unless he's really concerned that upon return people are going to find out he failed his duty, it's unlikely he'd "give up" after the middle of 1944.

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Sat, 31 Mar 2012 22:55:24 +0100

There were prisoners taken during the opening of Market-Garden. Although the drops were in daylight, and the Troop Carrier command did a great job of hitting the drop zones, several planes were shot down, a few even straying across the Rhein to land inside German-controlled territory that wasn't part of the attack plan. There are at least a couple specific mentions of that in A Bridge To Far, and the archives of the 101st identify at least three planes known to have crossed the river that had survivors. In addition, during the period directly after the initial attacks...when the allies had pretty much given up on the idea of crossing the Rhein at Arnhem, there were prisoners taken during some fighting to consolidate the positions. Although it didn't happen in the specific action shown, you can look at the episode from Band of Brothers entitled Crossroads for an example of that period of the war. In short, a paratrooper from either the 82nd or 101st could have ended up as a prisoner, more likely because of issues with they were dropped (crashed) than because of being taken in battle. If you want him to be wounded, then being taken in battle becomes a little more likely. While the number taken wasn't large, there were some.

Re: World War II classroom

Liza.M — Sun, 22 Apr 2012 18:13:35 +0100

Thank you that was really helpful! I'm glad to find this forum still active and always so useful.

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Sun, 08 Apr 2012 08:12:26 +0100

I guess I would disagree with your assessment of "At Dawn We Slept" but before I say anything specific I'd love to know your basis for that statement. In general, I would point out that even today there are files being opened that Prange and his associates didn't get to see, and while they might add some minor details, nothing truly significant has popped up that changes his narrative, unless you want to read (and I have) the transcripts of the Courts Martial. They're really rather boring for the most part. However, that said, I would offer that the first problem with the "Winds" message was that it didn't truly offer anything specific. The original "Winds" code didn't specify anything more than certain messages mean that "relations are in danger." It would take quite a leap to translate that to mean "the war will start in X hours," and it's likely any analyst who suggested it did would have been summarily dismissed. Layton knew much more than that, and he was completely ignored. I have a hard time believing that Kimmel, or Short for that matter, would have listened to yet another warning, especially when the actual "Winds Alert" message, if it was actually broadcast in the first place, didn't match anything in the code. We'll probably never know for certain if it was broadcast, and if the discrepancy was caused by a translation/decoding error or somebody simply screwed up. By itself, the Winds message meant very little that wasn't already known. The bomb plot, on the other hand, MIGHT have impressed the right person. However, given the Japanese penchant for detail, it might have completely slipped by. It is, of course, impossible to know. Prange, while pointing out that within the US command structure "each side" assumed something that wasn't communicated...i.e.Short not telling anyone he was "alert for sabotage," it is again pure conjecture that somebody might have figured out a hidden meaning in the Bomb plot. I agree that if it was seen in the proper light, it could well have indicated valuable information. However, it is equally likely that it would have been dismissed, simply by saying "we know you can't attack a shallow harbor, so it can't be what it might be." That, to me, would be as likely as anything, simply because the whole US command structure was focused on "what we think they might do" as opposed to "what could they possibly do" or "what might they try to do." I should point out that that mentality didn't die at Pearl Harbor, and it was, regrettably, alive and well in Korea and Vietnam, and seems to be even today in Afghanistan (and recently Iraq). It's a tough disease to conquer, and often thrives where the enemy is considered a "less than professional" army. While that is a terrible approach, it's all too common in the military, and had the right questions been asked (and they sometimes were) the response would have been..."It can't be done"...not because it couldn't but because few would have believed the Japanese would risk so much by steaming that far. It's also quite possible that it would have been dismissed because any serious analysis would have been postulated upon a follow-on invasion, and that would make the whole idea seem even more far-fetched. Even after the strike, while there was this tremendous fear of invasion, that was largely emotional...since the Japanese were so busy elsewhere some simple math would have revealed that they couldn't possibly mount an invasion fleet to Hawaii at the same time.

Re: World War II classroom

Melpomene — Tue, 10 Apr 2012 23:27:14 +0100

Your question about the RCAF is kind of confusing. Pilots with the infantry? There are lots of books on Canada during the World Wars, but WWI is the one that gets the Colony-to-Nation treatment. The Statute of Westminster gave the Dominions control of their own foreign affairs, so when war broke out in 1939, it was Canada's own decision to go. Even before that, Canada was an independent signatory to the Treaty of Versailles. Going back further, dominions had greater powers of self-government than colonies to begin with. My general impression has always been that Canada gained its independence gradually and hardly "pushed for it" at all--maybe a bit during WWI. J. L. Granatstein and Desmond Morton have done a lot of work in this area.

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Wed, 11 Apr 2012 21:09:10 +0100

The first...and obvious...place to look at the use of Canadian troops is Deippe. It was, quite possibly by its very design, a disaster. The landing force was largely Canadian, and a whole bunch of them ended up spending the rest of the war in POW camps. A large number died too. The only positive from the whole affair was that the British (and Americans) learned a lot of lessons that they later applied in the Normandy landings. While I'm not a blanket fan of wiki, this article has been reviewed by a couple of us (the assigned editors) and it's not too bad. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dieppe_Raid There were many Canadian naval units, mostly in smaller vessels providing convoy protection. If you want a good sense of that, find a copy of Hitler's U-Boat War by Clay Blair (two volumes) for some pretty good information about how that worked and the ships involved. There were also a number of RCAF units assigned to Coastal Command that provided air cover and U-boat patrols. They were stationed in Canada, Iceland, and in the UK also. A couple units ended up in Gibraltar and the Azores also. RCAF had little to do with "the infantry" since they were completely different service branches with almost nothing in common beyond the War itself. Now, may I suggest that Google is your friend. Here are some links that are/were easy to find simply by looking for WWII Canada. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Canadian_divisions_in_World_War_II http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_Canada_during_World_War_II To my knowledge, neither of these pages has been reviewed by the group, so I'd make certain I had other sources to support whatever they include. There are a bunch more, and it only takes a moment. That's especially true now, when NaNo is not "running" and most of us aren't checking the forums regularly

Re: World War II classroom

glass_box — Sat, 14 Apr 2012 00:53:28 +0100

Sorry, I guess what I meant was did Canadian pilots stay with the other Canadian troops. I've read A Bridge Too Far, and I think there were a few Canadian pilots mentioned, so would it have been the norm to deploy them all separately? I hope that makes sense, I'm certainly no expert regarding command structures and...that sort of thing.

Re: World War II classroom

glass_box — Sat, 14 Apr 2012 00:54:51 +0100

Thanks, I'll definitely look around some more!

Re: World War II classroom

Melpomene — Sat, 14 Apr 2012 02:35:05 +0100

In your OP you said before Normandy...is this question about after? Pilots and planes are harder to replace than a lot of other things. Then there are the problems of taking off, landing, and supplying them with fuel. They would not have been with the troops. The Hawker Typhoon and Tempest squadrons that were used in ground-attack roles in late 1944 operated from bases in Allied-held territory, behind the lines. Eindhoven was a fairly major base that was subject to a nasty counterattack on Christmas Day, 1944. It's been several years since I did any research on this, so the best I can do is direct you to Hugh A. Halliday's book "Typhoon and Tempest" (seeing that you live in Calgary too: the downtown library has it, and so does the Fish Creek branch if you happen to be down that way.)

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Fri, 27 Apr 2012 08:20:32 +0100

Munich or Potsdam? Well, first let me start by assuming you're referring to the meeting in Munich between Hitler and Chamberlain...and the post-war conference in Potsdam. If those assumptions are correct, you are looking at two very different situations. For a comprehensive, although not necessarily the best, description of Munich I would suggest Shirer's Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. The meetings were attended only by Hitler, Chamberlain, and Hitler's translator. Adolph was in rare form. He knew he had already "won" and alternated between being magnanimous and demanding. He controlled the entire situation, and Chamberlain allowed it. England, or at least Chamberlain was desperate for peace and was willing to sell his own mother if that was what it would take. Hitler demanded that...and more. It can hardly be called a "diplomatic" meeting in any sense of the word. It was nothing less than the French surrender in 1940, simply not staged at Compiègne. Potsdam was VERY different, although there are a couple of similarities. Churchill was on his way out of office, and Stalin knew that (as did everyone else). Truman was brand new, and had no "automatic" standing in the big three. Stalin was the "host" and was quite prepared to take over all of Europe, which he continued to attempt immediately, starting with what would become the Eastern Bloc and East Germany. Churchill wanted certain things, but didn't really come with a plan in mind. Truman, poorly served by FDR's advisers, also arrived without any specific plans. Truman believed that this was a meeting for discussion, while Stalin came to TAKE! All sides were supported by massive staffs, mostly military. Stalin presented his proposals, and demanded they be adopted. Since nobody had any other concrete plans, both Churchill and Truman pretty much caved in, allowing things that caused no end of problems in the future. For example, prior to Potsdam, Stalin had installed an entirely new government in Berlin, composed of trusted communists, with a few others for window dressing. He demanded that all decisions he had already made be established as the new status quo. Truman fell for it, and the end result of that was the 1948 Luftbrücke and blockade. Potsdam is the beginning of the Cold War. There are many great descriptions of Potsdam. My favorite is by Frank Howley in Berlin Command. A somewhat lighter version can be found Lucius Clay's book. Now, if I have incorrect assumed which conferences you were talking about, I'm sorry. If you need more information, you should probably PM me at my email, since I don't usually monitor this thread as closely in non-NaNo times.

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Fri, 11 May 2012 11:16:41 +0100

Blackouts were not the norm in Ireland, although they did happen. Ireland was officially neutral, although, like Spain and Portugal, it wasn't quite a pure neutrality. The Germans always assumed Ireland was helping England...much more than they truly did. News delays were not significant. Pearl Harbor was bombed at 0800 local time, which would put it in the middle of the night in Ireland. Although I haven't dug into the local papers, I suspect the radio stations would have had the news in the morning of December 8th. The papers were probably already put to bed before the news arrived...but they might have published an extra for that. Remember that the US did not initially declare war on Germany, so Ireland wouldn't have been directly affected by the US decision regarding war with the Japanese. Hitler declared war on the US...something he wasn't really obligated to do...and that resulted in the US declaration. Had Hitler deferred, we might have had two separate wars for a while, although at some point they would have been forced to merge. Irish newspapers would have had the same news that the English papers carried, since the source for one would be the same as for the others. Censorship was absolute, although the English generally didn't cover up too much. Specifics...such as ship losses, were often not detailed, and attacks on the home front were sometimes obscured. In fact, when the V1's were used, the English deliberately reported bogus targeting information. The V1 guidance system was very primitive...it just flew (at a presumed speed) for X number of minutes, and then intentionally crashed. The flight time was calculated to make it land in London. However, the English reported that they were traveling past London, which caused the Germans to shorten the flight time. The effect was to walk them back from London and drop them in empty farm fields. The Germans never caught on. Details were seldom given, beyond the times when a specific point was desired. For example, when Coventry was bombed, the English press was told the whole story...although not that the English government knew the raid was coming. At other times, the reports simply said "London was hit" but nothing specific about what areas within London. For the most part travel between the UK and Ireland was pretty open. The usual papers were required, and the English assumed that German spies might be introduced using that route. The XX Committee was amazingly effective, and almost without exception every German spy was captured early on. Some were turned, and others were quietly executed. For the most part the Irish nationalists, while perhaps paying lip service to the German promises of independence when they won, quietly hoped the English would prevail. The Irish didn't trust Hitler any more than the English did...after all, they'd seen what happened and knew the stories along the way. They could easily see Ireland becoming just another little country overrun by the Nazi machine.

Re: World War II classroom

Grand Poobah — Sat, 12 May 2012 11:20:41 +0100

Medics did not carry weapons. They were, officially, "non-combatants" which meant they were supposed to be ignored during combat. Of course, that didn't happen, sometimes because they couldn't be identified at any distance, and sometimes because the "other side" simply didn't care. Now...that said, medics did sometimes decide it was "time to fight back" and picked up a weapon and joined the fray. There are, in fact, some pretty "heroic" tales about medics who had been strongly anti-war until they witnessed "too much" and just started shooting. A medic in the airborne did not jump with a weapon. They probably had a jump knife, but that was designed mostly for general use and not for combat. They had their personal gear, and usually a musette bag filled with "medical stuff." Relating to the 101st, there is a great episode from Band of Brothers...the one dealing with Bastogne...that is focused upon Doc Rowe, E company's medic. It's quite factual, and gives a pretty good idea of the job and its dangers. Because they did not carry weapons, they also didn't carry ammunition. Either of those things would have negated their "non-combatant" status, and if that sort of thing got around, the enemy would just assume all medics were really soldiers in disguise and start shooting. In most cases, medics were respected for what they were, and they were left alone to do their thing.