Horse Info http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/historical-fiction/threads/28202 AndreaSG Dear All, In moving around the site and trying to figure stuff out I came upon this forum. I'm volunteering my experience as an equestrienne to anyone out there with horse issues. For one thing like all horse people I love to natter on about equines.and like anyone with a hobby (obsession) it's annoying when you read stuff that's wildly incorrect-for example a really famous author had horses throwing up from the bad smells in London in Dicken's time. Horses can't throw up and it's one of the things everyone would have known like cars run on gas. Anyway, if anyone has any historical horse questions I'll be happy to help-I also have my Uncle Jack's WWII Army horse care manual I can consult. I hope everyone is doing well on their novels and not procrastinating by voyeuristically looking at all the forums. Regards, AndreaSG Mon, 07 Nov 2011 04:01:38 +0000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/historical-fiction/threads/28202?page=1#forum_thread_comment_540771 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/historical-fiction/threads/28202?page=1#forum_thread_comment_540771 David P. Whittaker Erm...ok, I'll fess up to procrastinating :D I've got a question I've always wondered about-- how does sidesaddle work when jumping? Are they able to rise in that single stirrup or does their bum on the saddle at all times? Do they post at all, or is it more like Western? While I'm at it, were horses commonly just trained for sidesaddle, or could one horse serve for either? (I think I remember a bit in Mansfield Park in which Edward gives Fanny his horse to ride, but might be misremembering) Mon, 07 Nov 2011 17:26:58 +0000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/historical-fiction/threads/28202?page=1#forum_thread_comment_551201 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/historical-fiction/threads/28202?page=1#forum_thread_comment_551201 inkpetals Ooo, thanks for offering this! I'm writing a story set in the mid 1930's and my FMC is going to be getting into the early world of barrel racing soon. I know that women participation had roots in Annie Oakley, specialty acts, etc. and by this point was pretty much a "look cute, win a scarf" thing but was growing into more of girl power statement. Could my character have worn skirts to barrel race? To do tricks? I also have an idea that she always wears white to these events and eventually begins wearing a white mask (Lone Ranger style - her brothers listen to too much radio). Do you have any info on early barrel racing? And yes. I'm procrastinating. ;) Mon, 07 Nov 2011 18:51:24 +0000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/historical-fiction/threads/28202?page=1#forum_thread_comment_552868 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/historical-fiction/threads/28202?page=1#forum_thread_comment_552868 tyches_echo I don't have any specific barrel racing information for you, but have you seen split riding skirts? They're essentially very full pants that look like skirts to casual inspection. Some of them have a panel that buttons down the front so that they look completely like skirts from the front. The panel would be removed to ride. They were definitely around in the early 1900s. Mon, 07 Nov 2011 20:08:12 +0000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/historical-fiction/threads/28202?page=1#forum_thread_comment_554651 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/historical-fiction/threads/28202?page=1#forum_thread_comment_554651 AndreaSG Hey David, Re: posting I've heard that you can sort of do a roll up on your lower thigh but then I've also read that you really can't side saddle and you have to sit the trot the whole time. Jumping you can't rise and indeed a woman wouldn't hold on to the saddle the same way. The "leaping horn" was invented I think the early-mid 1800's and gave women tons more stability over a fence. There were two horns one the right leg was flung over and the other curved over the left leg. So the rider made almost a scissors vise with her legs-pushing up with her left thigh and down and over behind her right leg. I did get to ride SS once-no jumping-and my horse was surprisingly fine but all aren't and I've read that grooms all rode side saddle to exercise and train the horse. The key is for the rider to keep her right shoulder back. It's hard to do though! The whip always carried in the right hand acts as a "leg" to move the horse over and keep him straight to a jump. The other big invention for SS riding in its glory days in the late 1800's - 1920's was the "safely skirt" which came off if you did (riders wore pants underneath) so you didn't get caught in the horns of the SS and get drug which happened a lot before then. RE: the barrel racing you can probably find a lot of photos of that on line since it's the 30's but I bet as Tyches Echo says they'd wear split skirts, very full. That said there's a woman who I think still foxhunts aside who's barrel raced and done pole bending the whole thing all aside. I'll look for a site to post. I can of course remember that her horse was named Isaac and he was a Morgan/Thoroughbred cross. Her name is Rhonda Watts I think. I'm better on the horse than the rider;-). Regards, Andrea Tue, 08 Nov 2011 23:27:22 +0000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/historical-fiction/threads/28202?page=1#forum_thread_comment_584440 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/historical-fiction/threads/28202?page=1#forum_thread_comment_584440 David P. Whittaker Sitting while jumping? Maybe they had springloaded bustles or something. Then again, I know people who take jumps bareback. But I've seen pictures of some serious sidesaddle jumping. Now I'm even more impressed. I mean, check this one out (1936 Olympic tryouts) http://georgialadiesaside.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/SS-1936-Olympic-tryouts.jpg Wed, 09 Nov 2011 12:38:01 +0000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/historical-fiction/threads/28202?page=1#forum_thread_comment_595797 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/historical-fiction/threads/28202?page=1#forum_thread_comment_595797 AndreaSG GAD! That's a jump! You can see the scissors effect I was talking about there. The woman I said let me try her ss jumps too and has hunted in the jumping flight as well aside. When she came to our hunt she rode in 2nd flight, nonjumping, with her son. I would love to try that but idk ... You can see in that cool photo how straight the rider is-it'd be so hard not to lean left. Though you know till the forward seat was developed in the early 20th century men jumped with their bottoms on the horse as well and really long stirrups-you can see it in old paintings and even photos. You'd have to be very in tune with your horse! Thu, 10 Nov 2011 17:29:13 +0000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/historical-fiction/threads/28202?page=1#forum_thread_comment_620455 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/historical-fiction/threads/28202?page=1#forum_thread_comment_620455 AndreaSG Oh, for other cool ss photos and some western stuff look at www.americansidesaddleassociation.org. There's Rhonda Watts that I mentioned winning a shooting contest, aside! Apparently you have to hit a target while mounted. She's amazing! She hunts and jumps as well. Andrea Thu, 10 Nov 2011 17:33:24 +0000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/historical-fiction/threads/28202?page=1#forum_thread_comment_620523 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/historical-fiction/threads/28202?page=1#forum_thread_comment_620523 Meg0202 Hey, I feel like i should be able to find this info but i'll ask you anyway. My novel is set in 1918 New Orleans. It is muddy!!! My characters have cars obviously but if you were in a hurry or in the rain, would you ride a horse? When did side saddles go out for women? Meghan Sun, 27 Nov 2011 03:53:57 +0000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/historical-fiction/threads/28202?page=1#forum_thread_comment_858248 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/historical-fiction/threads/28202?page=1#forum_thread_comment_858248 scb1962 My question is how far could a person on horse back travel in a day if you were really going for distance, taking minimal breaks? I assume it would mean travelling at a rasonably slow pace to be able ot keep it up all day, and that a horse can't do full-on gallop for long. Sun, 27 Nov 2011 12:10:22 +0000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/historical-fiction/threads/28202?page=1#forum_thread_comment_861335 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/historical-fiction/threads/28202?page=1#forum_thread_comment_861335 Twilight7fire I might be able to answer that last question from experience. It depends on the horse (breed, level of training etc) and on the rider (weight, experience). In case of a highly trained endurance horse, with a rider that is skilled and weighs about 10/15% of the horse's total weight (this includes saddle and supplies), you might ride up to a hundred kilometers in a day, but this is exceptional and you will not be able to do that again the next day, as keeping such a rythm up for a time will certainly lame your horse. If you are Regular Joe and Regular Joe's horse, I think about 60/65 kilometers is what you can manage. If you take minimal breaks and you don't get lost, you'll be able to pull that of in somewhere between 7 and 10 hours. It is a bit dependent on the weather conditions and the terrain, though. I've did a 60+ km trail twice, on my regular Joe horse, a Gypsy Cob with good stamina, good training under saddle (working equitation and classical dressage) but little in the way of endurance training. Both times, the weather was bad. It was February and part of the trail (that led through a forest) was frozen, so we couldn't keep up a good trot for most of the way. The first time, we under-estimated the distance and this unfortunate thing called nightfall happened, causing us to get lost in the woods. We eventually found our way to our destination, but it took us about twelve hours and we were both spent. On the way back, we managed to stick to the route, but got caught in a snow-storm, once again impeding our speed. This time, it took us about nine hours. There were only four days between the two rides and the horse wasn't completely rested by the time we rode back home. I stopped for a few minutes about every two/three hours, to feed and water the horse. It would have been my preference to take longer breaks, but my horse doesn't like stopping in the middle of a trail and prefers to just walk on. He is really amazing; left to his own devices, he will just continue to walk and walk and walk until he's back at the barn, no matter the distance. Most of the trail I rode at a walk, due to the severe weather. Had the weather been better, I would have done that at a jog, which is slightly quicker and more comfortable for both me and the horse (yes, a walk can actually be more demanding than a slow trot). Every few hours I would get off, switch the headstall for a halter, loosen the girth of the saddle and walk next to the horse for an hour or so, to give it a breather. Whenever the terrain was really good, I would sometimes canter for a bit, no overly long and afterwards I would usually dismount. The terrain was, I'd say, medium difficulty. Very hilly, which is naturally more demanding, but reasonably good paths. I have to say though that I am quite an experienced rider and I'm used to making a lot of hours in the saddle. If you're less skilled or not used to riding a lot, doing such a distance will wreck you, literally. Your back and thighs will start feeling like they're on fire. If you wear jeans instead of jodphurs, and your seat is not secure enough, you might chafe the skin of your behind. Hope that gives you someting to work with! :) Mon, 28 Nov 2011 12:23:03 +0000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/historical-fiction/threads/28202?page=1#forum_thread_comment_873448 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/historical-fiction/threads/28202?page=1#forum_thread_comment_873448 Nereti There are endurance races that are pretty extreme. One in Australia called the Shahzada is 500km over 5 days (80km / day). My aunt has completed this one 3 times and she aims to trot pretty much the whole way. Except the bit where they're clambering down the side of a mountain... Tue, 29 Nov 2011 23:28:40 +0000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/historical-fiction/threads/28202?page=1#forum_thread_comment_891825 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/historical-fiction/threads/28202?page=1#forum_thread_comment_891825 Princeshelby THANK YOU FOR POSTING THIS AWESOME PERSON!!!! -Sincerely, extremely happy horse person :D Thu, 01 Dec 2011 07:03:33 +0000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/historical-fiction/threads/28202?page=1#forum_thread_comment_912714 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/historical-fiction/threads/28202?page=1#forum_thread_comment_912714 keriamon To add some specifically medieval info to this awesome thread: http://ilaria.veltri.tripod.com/sidesaddle.html This is a fabulous site on medieval side saddles, including the creation of a working reproduction. They're very different from the traditional side saddle, which I think came into being in the Elizabethan period. Even with this type of side saddle in existence, though, most medieval women seem to have just ridden astride. This picture http://englishcomplit.unc.edu/chaucer/zatta/wife.jpg shows a type of canvas or leather pants-like covering that protected the woman's dress from mud while riding (don't ask me how she got on while wearing that, as it doesn't seem to be belted on or attached in any way). I have ridden astride while wearing a medieval dress (sans protective cover) and it's really not a problem. Medieval skirts were cut very full, allowing full range of motion in the legs. You just have to be careful, when you put your foot in the stirrup to mount, that you don't catch the skirt in it. And I have found that life is much, much easier if, when I dismount, I throw my leg over the horse's neck and drop to my feet, facing away from the horse. Trying to dismount the traditional way--by throwing my leg over the back of the horse and stepping down facing the horse--is problematic, because I inevitably step on the hem of my dress, because it hits the ground before I do. And, in that unbalanced position, it can definitely cause a very ungraceful fall. At the very least, the dress will get caught on the back of a high, medieval-style saddle and you'll be on your feet with your dress pulled up above your head. Very undignified. Going off to the front allows you to linger in the saddle just long enough to pull your skirt over the pommel before you hop down. And it's much nicer to jump down into some man's waiting arms! As you can see from this picture: http://sca.org.nz/equestrian/equestrianimgs/equestrian01.jpg, the full skirt can be spread out on the back of the horse and is very pretty. Some re-enactors wear pants under their dresses, but I don't see the need for it. When mounting, the front part of the skirt automatically tucks up between the legs, protecting them from the saddle. A proper medieval woman would have been wearing an underdress and an outer dress (which was always lined in the bodice and usually lined all the way through the skirt) at a minimum. Another dress on top--with lining--was usual on all but the hottest summer days. So medieval women would have had more layers of fabric between them and the saddle than modern riders in jeans or jodhpurs. Fri, 02 Dec 2011 16:26:23 +0000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/historical-fiction/threads/28202?page=1#forum_thread_comment_922720 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/historical-fiction/threads/28202?page=1#forum_thread_comment_922720 GenghisQuan Hey OP, quick question: how does the "ride with multiple horses so you can switch off when one gets tired" thing work? Or does it actually not? B/c I'm thinking through it and it seems like those extra horses would have to travel at the same speed as your current horse, so they'd be only marginally less tired as they wouldn't be carrying you around at the same time? Wed, 07 Dec 2011 04:38:29 +0000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/historical-fiction/threads/28202?page=1#forum_thread_comment_945115 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/historical-fiction/threads/28202?page=1#forum_thread_comment_945115