Literary Cliches To Avoid http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941 thegirlbartleby Personally, I try not to make too big a fuss over avoiding cliches -- I don't like feeling like I can't do something just because it's been done before. It's just too limiting. And if you really think about it, the very act of avoiding cliches has become something of a cliche. But I digress. To some extent, they definitely do weaken writing, especially when overused. So what goes on your all-time list of literary cliches to avoid? Thu, 27 Oct 2011 14:55:17 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_253167 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_253167 LittleQueenie Top of the list: 'It was all a dream'. Fri, 28 Oct 2011 04:38:04 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_260974 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_260974 sixleaf Good vs. evil. Fri, 28 Oct 2011 07:40:14 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_262873 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_262873 sixleaf (Unrelated side note: I like how the first three people to post in this thread have cats as user pictures.) Fri, 28 Oct 2011 07:41:13 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_262889 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_262889 MargoMcP Women with cats is a cliche to avoid :-) Good vs. evil reminds me of any/other dichotomies; strong versus weak, black versus white, all or nothing, weak and poor, etc. We need some shading and shadows in there! Fri, 28 Oct 2011 08:33:20 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_263649 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_263649 Fiona W Too much talking &amp; thinking &amp; feeling and not enough acting &amp; interacting. Fri, 28 Oct 2011 10:47:07 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_265682 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_265682 Fiona W Also: name-dropping &amp; quotations without any clear reason why those people or passages are relevant to the character arc(s). Fri, 28 Oct 2011 10:49:56 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_265730 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_265730 KaitTTT I just read Philip K. Dick's A Maze of Death.... so yeah, feelin' this one real hard. ಠ_ಠ Fri, 28 Oct 2011 11:55:31 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_266862 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_266862 KaitTTT "Strong" female character, and then suddenly the only "strong-enough" dude in the entire world shows up to win her. Fri, 28 Oct 2011 11:57:20 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_266883 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_266883 Uboa This is the moment the reader has been waiting for; the prose is beautiful and the action is intense, the two are staring each other down, a knife flies through the air, and then, OUT OF NO WHERE SOMEONE ELSE SAVES THE MC AND THE DAY WOO. Sat, 29 Oct 2011 14:58:18 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_287212 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_287212 ardnassac That's the worst. Sat, 29 Oct 2011 20:56:27 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_290623 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_290623 Gabran Oh but at least you know the PKD was one of the first. That's just his style. He's a genius, and to stop myself from going on and on about PKD, I'll ask, have you read Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? Sun, 30 Oct 2011 00:27:30 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_293072 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_293072 Gabran Completely satisfying and fulfilling endings. You know, the kind that make you feel great about the world. "Happily ever after" and whatnot Sun, 30 Oct 2011 00:30:33 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_293093 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_293093 KaitTTT Verily. Sun, 30 Oct 2011 02:16:05 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_293850 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_293850 Dennis Jernberg The opposite error from good-vs.-evil and other dichotomies is gray-vs.-gray or, even worse, black-vs.-black, to the point of <a href="http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DarknessInducedAudienceApathy" rel="nofollow">darkness-induced audience apathy</a> (hello, I'm looking at you, Cormac McCarthy). And the opposite error from the cliché Hollywood happy ending is the "shoot the shaggy dog" downer ending out of contempt for happy endings, for the same reason. Happy endings should be earned, and so should unhappy ones. Oh, and "deus ex machina" in any form must die 10,000 deaths. Sun, 30 Oct 2011 03:19:38 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_294258 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_294258 ShaunaSilva Testify! You hit the nail on the head;) Also: redemption after fall from grace. Sun, 30 Oct 2011 06:14:00 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_295708 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_295708 thedorngirl Love at first sight. Or, as a friend has dubbed it, the "Twilight Insta-Love Phenomenon." Sun, 30 Oct 2011 12:27:13 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_301576 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_301576 adklib As another woman with a cat I'd like to add writers with cats. (Mark Twain anyone?) I agree with dichotomies as a cliche. They smack of simplicity to me and life is just not that cut-and-dried. At least mine isn't. Sun, 30 Oct 2011 12:35:01 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_301741 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_301741 cag0925 Surly, cynical character must for some contrived reason care for an innocent child, suddenly gets in touch with himself and turns into a likable person. Yuck. Sun, 30 Oct 2011 12:40:30 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_301850 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_301850 Fiona W Awww...I kinda lerv darkness-induced audience apathy...it's why I find re-reading Cormac McCarthy's _Blood Meridian_ to be so relaxing. I read it over and over and over...it's a huge break from Real Life, where Good vs. Evil conflicts pop up all the time—at least in my life they do. When I wanna relax with some well-written LitFic, who needs conflict? Bleak bleak and more bleak is velly velly nice....(getting punchy waiting for my first ever NaNo to start, in case you can't tell =laugh=) Sun, 30 Oct 2011 13:49:40 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_303203 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_303203 SVEllis Am I wrong or is that the book that that Harrison Ford from from the early 90s was based on? Vague statement, I know... Sun, 30 Oct 2011 15:04:30 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_304846 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_304846 Invisibly-Visible The good guys are wonderul and fantastic in every aspect and absolutely right all the time. Likewise the bad guys are horrible and completely evil with no true emotions or personality past "evil". All "good guys" have faults. All "bad guys" have reasons. I hate when authors forget that. Sun, 30 Oct 2011 17:41:49 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_308220 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_308220 indigoth Blade Runner? Yes. Sun, 30 Oct 2011 18:19:33 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_309128 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_309128 Invisibly-Visible The damsel in distress. Enough said. (How about the hero in distress saved by the daring damsel? Or better yet, the daring hero rushes to the tower of the damsel in distress only to find that she has not only freed herself and befriended the dragon, but is off on her honeymoon with the villian. If anyone writes that, i'll give you a virtual cookie.) Sun, 30 Oct 2011 18:54:41 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_310039 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_310039 SVEllis Yeah that's the one! Haha. Thanks. Sun, 30 Oct 2011 20:27:50 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_312413 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_312413 ColorOfSakura On the turn of the same coin, the damsel being a supercilious badass who kicks all kinds of butt, basically can do anything and everything without anyone's help, and is completely perfect at it. This is becoming its own cliche, and it's getting kind of annoying. Again. All good guys should have faults, don't think making your hero a woman means you don't have to give her faults. All good strong female characters have them. Sun, 30 Oct 2011 20:58:01 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_313061 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_313061 Jeffles Agreed, but I would change the wording slightly. All good characters have them. Sun, 30 Oct 2011 22:48:44 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_314990 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_314990 ColorOfSakura Well, yes, but I was making a specific example out of good "strong female characters". Which a lot of writers seem to enjoy writing, but most of them don't give them flaws, because they seem to have it in their head that somehow doing so would be sexist or anti-feminist. Mon, 31 Oct 2011 05:55:17 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_319519 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_319519 flopart When people think "strong female character" means they have to be a warrior or a goddess, when "character who is strongly written and relatable" would be a better guideline. I don't like reading about perfect women-- I can't relate to them! Mon, 31 Oct 2011 06:43:38 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_320310 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_320310 flopart Agreed-- I think if you're gonna throw in magic gems that save the day it's worth it to go back and foreshadow their usefulness at least a little. Mon, 31 Oct 2011 06:45:28 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_320349 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_320349 flopart Like that whole sub plot in Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants with the Cynical Girl Meets Precocious Kid with Cancer... Mon, 31 Oct 2011 06:46:19 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_320367 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_320367 flopart I agree it's a cliche, and it bothers me as both an artistic person (lazy writing!) and a feminist. Here's my theory: 1.) Our society is still very sexist. 2.) Women are almost always presented as one cliche or another. 3.) Any attempt to write a woman is seen as a message about women in general because for so long, our sexist society has been running off of mean stereotypes. and then 4.) Actual women feel that they can't relate to each other because they internalize the idea that other people who are women are like these cliches. 5.) Actual women sit down to write a story. For some reason, it's so tempting to write a male character. They just seem so much more relatable gee wiz. But no, gonna try to write a female person, but are to varying degrees aware that any character who is a woman will be read by someone as speaking about women in general. Disaster ensues. Mon, 31 Oct 2011 06:53:17 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_320503 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_320503 feast_of_unreason Just to jump on this conversation ... I totally agree with you. I spent an enjoyable morning in despair at our society, reading various articles on (strong) female characters and (strong female) characters etc., and it was very interesting. I'd point you in the forum where we were discussing it, but I can't find the link (it was a thread on cracked.com). Mon, 31 Oct 2011 07:22:26 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_321099 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_321099 feast_of_unreason Totally agree re: Cormac McCarthy. The first I read was 'The Road' and it got to the point where I wanted them all to die so I could stop reading. My plot for this year has gods in it, so deus ex machinae are going to be heavily lampshaded. Mon, 31 Oct 2011 07:23:30 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_321121 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_321121 Shem-the-Penman I have to mention one of my writing household's pet peeves, the uptight-loser-gets-brought-out-of-his/her-shell-by-quirky-free-spirit trope. If anyone here writes this, ever, my wife will find you. And she will hurt you. -Shem Mon, 31 Oct 2011 08:00:03 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_321828 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_321828 MutableTiger Sweet baby Jesus - I love this thread! But now I have to go back over my outline to make sure I'm not cheese-ballin' it up! LOL! Mon, 31 Oct 2011 10:02:23 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_324792 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_324792 groundsofbklyn This thread. Is so useful. XD Thank you everyone for calling these out. Mon, 31 Oct 2011 12:24:26 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_328644 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_328644 Bewitched.Rhapsody Yes. Need I say more? Mon, 31 Oct 2011 12:57:52 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_329538 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_329538 Bewitched.Rhapsody So true. So true. XD Mon, 31 Oct 2011 12:58:22 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_329552 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_329552 Bewitched.Rhapsody Oh golly day, THIS. XD Mon, 31 Oct 2011 13:00:02 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_329594 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_329594 iymcool The whole "X family member dies and leaves MC a lot of money/magical amulet/map" scenario really grainds my gears. Mon, 31 Oct 2011 13:28:05 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_330212 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_330212 Broreale I don't think the "Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy" is a trope to avoid, really. It's not a universal speaker of values (except nihilism, perhaps), no one can say that, but sometimes the darkness of the human condition is something that the writer wants to communicate. I'd say that in a story (which I don't really see Blood Meridian as even attempting to have), such downright evil keeps the reader from sympathizing with anyone, and it's therefore kills interest in the plot. But when you want to enjoy (in a twisted way, I know), the wickedness of certain characters, or meditate on the effects of their actions, sympathy doesn't matter so much anymore. Just because I don't care if someone wins or loses doesn't mean I don't care about what happens. So, to summarize, it's impossible for everyone to enjoy, but not something you should necessarily stay far, far away from when writing. But the mood definitely does need to match the subject. Mon, 31 Oct 2011 14:31:02 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_331770 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_331770 stetigst I always liked that story I once stumbled over, of a guy who sees Hamlet for the first time and goes "Ah, it was just a bunch of old cliches" Tue, 01 Nov 2011 04:26:32 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_348719 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_348719 Inachis Dichotomies, I suppose that's one to avoid. Though, even though my characters seem like exact opposites at first, who says black and white can't be similar in the sense that they're both 2 bit and colours? Also, another pretty common cliche would be male bosses. Hey, who says females can't own coffee shops or diners? Tue, 01 Nov 2011 05:05:22 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_349417 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_349417 gatapreta i don't think dichotomies ought to be avoided. in fact, most great novels involve some dichotomies. " good vs evil, strong vs weak, poor vs rich" is present in almost any classical novel i can think of. "crime and punishment," "les miserables," "lolita" - it can be an internal dichotomy within an individual (individual morality: good vs. evil), or it can be external. but you can always find lots of dichotomies in great novels. Tue, 01 Nov 2011 13:28:27 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_361587 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_361587 eowynspen Someone said the "loved one dies and leaves MC amulet/money/map/other useful tool" cliche, to which I'd like to add the "loved one dies and the only thing the MC has left of him/her/it is ONE special locket/gun/other pretty trinket" cliche. I always kind of wanted to see this one parodied, such as... Brigid looked down somberly at the small object resting in the palm of her hand. Her shoulders shook slightly. David drew closer to see what it was, and as if in answer, Brigid spoke. "It's an heirloom," she said, quietly. "This toothpick," she held up the faintly soiled scrap of wood, her eyes glimmering with unshed tears of long pain and anguish, "is the only thing I have left of my second cousin-in-law twice removed." Her shoulders hunched in sudden emotion. "He left me! He left me all alone, and this is all I have to remember him by!" She crushed the large splinter in her clenched fist and fought back a sob. ...see? THAT's fun. Tue, 01 Nov 2011 19:15:44 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_373876 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_373876 goodgreek So with you there! Ugh. "Strong female character" has become one of those phrases I can't stand. Why can't we just have characters who are female and developed? It seems that the harder someone tries to write/portray a "strong female character", the less developed she ends up being. Tue, 01 Nov 2011 20:14:30 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_375863 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_375863 BFisher31524 [quote=LittleQueenie] Top of the list: 'It was all a dream'. [/quote] I used to read WordUp magazine. Tue, 01 Nov 2011 21:22:23 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_378267 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_378267 BFisher31524 Listing real-world streets, businesses, or characters from contemporary works is very similar to a rapper giving shout-outs to his record label and/or listing every collaborator about to perform in the song. Unless the reference carries real-world thematic weight - like Rodeo Drive being known as a fashion hub or Wall Street being a citadel of commerce and corruption - or the exact reference will play an integral role in the reality of your work, your story will gain nothing from the real-world reference and would probably even profit from a fictional place to go with your fictional characters and events. It either dates or restricts a work to a time or place and limits its effect. I think so, anyway. Tue, 01 Nov 2011 21:57:21 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_378914 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_378914 wild_one This thing needs a 'like' button. That's quite a cliche too. :D Wed, 02 Nov 2011 00:12:49 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_381761 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_381761 Meredith512 Oh yeah. You mean the Manic Pixie Girlfriend trope. Avoid. Wed, 02 Nov 2011 06:24:16 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_387601 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_387601 Shem-the-Penman I like when an author uses real-world locations for his or her story. I mean, obviously it can get tiresome if the author simply lists a string of irrelevant place names. But if done right, it can lend flavor to a narrative, even make the setting itself seem like one of the characters. -Shem Wed, 02 Nov 2011 06:32:13 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_387757 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_387757 Bewitched.Rhapsody Honestly? I feel like the "shades of grey" idea gets really overdone. There's a way to do it well... But what if a character comes to the conclusion that "It's rough all over. Nobody's better than anybody else. If there's a clear black and white, we're all on black." Basically, we're all in the same spot. O.o I dunno. I've just never read something that has taken that perspective... which is why I'm writing it in my current story. XD At least, that's <em>one</em> of my many themes. Thu, 03 Nov 2011 10:31:31 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_431514 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_431514 Daniel Olson [quote=Gabran] Completely satisfying and fulfilling endings. You know, the kind that make you feel great about the world. "Happily ever after" and whatnot [/quote] Oh, even worse than that though is a story that is clearly intended to make sure that you leave the book feeling really crappy about how crappy the whole world is... as if the writer just really wants you to be as depressed about life as s/he is. Crazy indulgent and annoying to me. Thu, 03 Nov 2011 11:20:50 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_432840 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_432840 RebekahW Reasons taken too far can be annoying as well. Some people try to make the all the reasons for anything less than nice into "people only do bad things because they secretly think they can help the world." No selfish reasons, no anger or revenge, no desire to lash out at someone because it can be a rush... Just "no one is ever actually cruel or mean but really a saint in disguise" stuff that turns everyone into superficial caricatures. Thu, 03 Nov 2011 12:00:21 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_433900 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_433900 giddymangaka Cliches found in fanfiction: -when the narration at some point goes on like, 'Now you might wonder why this is like this.' Cliches found in over-the-top stuff that are meant to be sold: -When the villain wants to destroy the world for the lulz. -When the main character finds out he's the 'Chosen One' because he's the Chosen One with magic powers of whatever that come out of freakin' nowhere -When the evil villain has to be defeated by getting a bunch of magical voodoo stuff instead of a well-put together strategy for the villain's demise that actually requires some further thinking All around cliches: -Main characters that are annoying or have the personality of a potato -When characters fall in love just because or because of one lil' nice act the character did without actually showing any character -When we have to be told that a character is awesome instead of actually seeing that he/she's awesome -The power of love Thu, 03 Nov 2011 17:54:20 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_445419 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_445419 mrawrites Dark and Light motif. Dear God, please. No more dark and light motifs. Thu, 03 Nov 2011 18:44:02 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_446919 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_446919 lindsey1295 Just a few of my personal non-faves :-) 1. Hooker with a heart of gold 2. Character who wants to jump off a bridge only to be pulled back by a benevolent stranger 3. Angry little man 4. Desperate housewife 5. Children who don't act like children 6. "A muscle clenched in his jaw"--I feel like this sentence is in every romance novel I've ever read. Thu, 03 Nov 2011 18:47:41 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_447044 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_447044 lindsey1295 [quote=giddymangaka] Cliches found in fanfiction: -When the villain wants to destroy the world for the lulz. This made me get the lulz. Does that make me evil? Thu, 03 Nov 2011 18:50:28 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_447132 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_447132 xxCoFxx Absolutely agreed with these. They're horrible cliches and they drive me crazy! Fri, 04 Nov 2011 08:42:47 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_461942 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_461942 justBetsy The evil guardians waiting for the heiress to come of age and inherit so they can kill her. The secretly rich guy who masquerades as a mechanic or some such. Fri, 04 Nov 2011 11:52:57 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_466292 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_466292 Rob(literated) Ulysses would like to have a word with you. Sat, 05 Nov 2011 18:28:41 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_506956 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_506956 Rob(literated) When characters have an utter lack of day-to-day minutae in their lives. Nobody ever pays a phone bill, goes to the bathroom, or clips their toenails. Sat, 05 Nov 2011 18:30:19 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_507004 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_507004 KKriesel A handsome stranger approaches the MC, whose inner dialogue comments on his/her/hir eloquent response of "guh" or some other such noise. Yes, sometimes it's clever to build up to an inelegant reply like that...but it's becoming cliche Sat, 05 Nov 2011 21:42:34 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_512411 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_512411 juliaaaah See also: "his smile didn't reach his eyes." Well, of course not. His pesky cheeks got in the way. Sat, 05 Nov 2011 21:59:03 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_512778 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_512778 juliaaaah I'm at the point where I stop reading something when I see *any* inner dialogue. Sat, 05 Nov 2011 21:59:59 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_512797 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_512797 calleensky Haha so true! But ain't Zooey Deschanel just so adorable? And hot. Sun, 06 Nov 2011 07:00:30 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_520790 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_520790 calleensky Haha this is actually quite pertinent to my story! I just wrote a whole scene that arises from a character needing to pee and the bathroom being occupied. Sun, 06 Nov 2011 07:08:26 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_520936 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_520936 Wassail Hemingway loved cats Sun, 06 Nov 2011 07:32:43 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_521370 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_521370 Wassail All plots and character arcs can usually be distilled into a simple dichotomy: positive versus negative. How we dress it up is what matters. Sun, 06 Nov 2011 07:34:44 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_521404 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_521404 Squamch I think the quirky, free-spirit female character is the new cliche. I think it's a lot more rare these days to come across a stereotypical June Cleaver-type female character. The anti-cliche has become the cliche. Also, and maybe this is just a bad habit more than a cliche, but characters in literary fiction are always way too well read. They're constantly referencing books that I don't believe they'd realistically have read. Sun, 06 Nov 2011 11:42:27 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_527157 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_527157 sixleaf One of my MCs takes a lot of showers. His hair gets greasy quickly. Sometimes I think I get a little overboard with the detail thought: "And then he took a chip from the bag, and then he put the chip in his mouth and took a bite. He chewed the chip and swallowed it. Then he put the rest of the chip in his mouth..." (I didn't actually write that in my novel, but you get the idea.) Sun, 06 Nov 2011 11:47:59 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_527316 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_527316 Fiona W There's a fabulous long scene in <em>Infinte Jest</em> in which a character clips his toenails while talking on the phone—I loved it! Sun, 06 Nov 2011 13:25:09 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_530003 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_530003 LOTR_junkie6 That scene was actually kind of brilliant. Especially when he goes into how the magic of the moment will be broken if he switches to the other foot and how the brother he's talking to on the phone hates the sound of the clipping- I have an unreasonable love for that book. Sun, 06 Nov 2011 15:58:17 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_534151 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_534151 Anfaenger I think if there are just too many references to other works, other books etc. Worst of all are IMHO film references. Also annoying is the constant existance of love in the media. I mean, love is okay, but they overdo it. I do not want to know when an MMC and an FMC are in a book that at one point they will kiss. Sun, 06 Nov 2011 16:18:35 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_534696 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_534696 Rowan-in-ruins I think first person narration has become a cliche, especially if the narrator is ironic and self-deprecating and / or is the type of "strong female character" criticised earlier in the thread. Mon, 07 Nov 2011 04:09:06 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_547157 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_547157 a_real_witch_cat This. Although in fairness, I don't mind whether an ending is happy or sad as long as it feels appropriate for the story being told. In either case I prefer a couple of threads left loose for my imagination to work on :) Mon, 07 Nov 2011 07:32:05 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_549711 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_549711 durhamm YES. My character is kind of on the edge. She falls over the edge during the story. But I like her. I think if she weren't a figment of my imagination, we'd have coffee together. Would NEVER have coffee with Artemis. Kinda scary. Mon, 07 Nov 2011 09:31:04 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_551281 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_551281 xxCoFxx [quote=juliaaaah] See also: "his smile didn't reach his eyes." Well, of course not. His pesky cheeks got in the way. [/quote] Those rotten cheeks, how dare they? -lol I found this one amusing...I don't really see it used that often. Or perhaps I just never noticed it. But I don't like this one, either. Mon, 07 Nov 2011 09:31:50 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_551297 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_551297 Crepuscule Avoiding a cliche isn't a cliche: "A cliché or cliche (pronounced UK: /ˈkliːʃeɪ/, US: /klɪˈʃeɪ/) is an expression, idea, or element of an artistic work which has been overused to the point of losing its original meaning or effect, rendering it a stereotype, especially when at some earlier time it was considered meaningful or novel." It is still meaningful to avoid cliche as, by avoiding it your writing retains meaning and cannot therefore be a cliche. Mon, 07 Nov 2011 17:16:16 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_562209 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_562209 Crepuscule Agree with sixleaf. Beyond Good and Evil anyone? Mon, 07 Nov 2011 17:17:41 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_562244 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_562244 Crepuscule If you do a content analysis of the way both men and women are described in traditional media you will find that men fair substantially worse, attracting a higher number of negative adjectives than women. This isn't exactly what you are talking about but demotic story telling relies on trope characterisation to impart what little meaning the lousy careerist has to show and tell just before their Friday deadline (before golf). In one sense description is an act of discrimination and that is something that writers have to deal with. Mon, 07 Nov 2011 17:23:26 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_562400 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_562400 Crepuscule "I'll hunt you down and gut you like a fish!" - Jim Carey's Grinch :/ Mon, 07 Nov 2011 17:24:17 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_562421 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_562421 Crepuscule We need more in depth descriptions of trips to the butcher to obtain a single kidney to fry for breakfast (and not give the cat any) Rob. Mon, 07 Nov 2011 17:28:01 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_562523 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_562523 Crepuscule Agreed. Mon, 07 Nov 2011 17:29:05 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_562551 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_562551 Seth D. Michaels so is the framing device of "here i am now, let me tell you how i got here" as an introduction, a la "Double Indemnity," one of these cliches? (um, asking for a friend.) Mon, 07 Nov 2011 22:35:15 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_569394 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_569394 Seth D. Michaels i dunno - George Pelecanos, the mystery writer, does this almost to a fault in his novels, but i think it works - the character whose perspective they're from is the sort of person who would be observant of local details like that. maybe i just enjoy it because it's set in DC, but not the usual politics-and-museums DC. Mon, 07 Nov 2011 22:37:04 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_569424 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_569424 lindzey27 Hmm well I may eventually be using the "it was all a dream" cliche. But I think I'll be using it differently... kind of like "it didn't really happen, but it kind of did happen maybe." I'm going for a slightly fantasy-esque lit fic I guess if that makes sense. Tue, 08 Nov 2011 11:28:37 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_578975 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_578975 xxCoFxx This one kills me, tbh Tue, 08 Nov 2011 11:57:29 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_579629 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_579629 Mr Ramsay When I write this kind of thing it feels really cliched; but when I read it when written by others I don't mind so much, I barely notice in fact; so I guess that's the point. It is a very common technique but realistically there are finite narrational devices anyway. Postmodernism has tried to get around it but, at the end of the day*, you have a narrative voice and there has to be a link between the perspective of the narrator and the fact that it has found its way on to the pages in front of you. But we're writing litfic right? Your sentence should not be "here i am now, let me tell you how i got here" so much as "where am I now? How on earth did I get here?". *yeh? Wed, 09 Nov 2011 02:25:54 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_594855 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_594855 Shem-the-Penman You can't use the Mad Scientist Whose Crazy Sounding Hunches Turn Out To Be True trope. Because I'm using it this year. And I'll make sure I put it back where I found it. -Shem Thu, 10 Nov 2011 08:15:59 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_619238 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_619238 molin84 I used to read Word Up magazine Salt'n'Pepa and Heavy D up in the limousine Hangin' pictures on my wall Every Saturday Rap Attack, Mr. Magic, Marley Marl Thu, 10 Nov 2011 11:45:40 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_622789 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_622789 molin84 hahah i didn't see that you posted this Thu, 10 Nov 2011 11:46:07 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_622798 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_622798 molin84 less evil vs. evil is always fun. i think of Marv from Sin City Thu, 10 Nov 2011 11:46:58 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_622810 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_622810 molin84 hahaha I love your synopsis Thu, 10 Nov 2011 11:48:57 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_622841 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_622841 molin84 Doing the right thing at the end. saving the world. happy ending. all of these can be done well, but rarely are Thu, 10 Nov 2011 11:50:08 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_622862 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_622862 molin84 children who don't act like children.... like in Extremely Loud and Incredibly Close. I had a hard time with that kid being only nine. Thu, 10 Nov 2011 11:51:12 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_622877 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_622877 Yomandude Ho boy, if all the books I read had bad endings, my hair'd probably be a fair few shades grayer than it is right now, and I assure you that that would not be a good thing. Fri, 11 Nov 2011 20:16:43 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_651270 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_651270 Oregon_Rain I'm a very grumpy young man, mad at fiction as well as the world in general. Here's a small list of cliches that make me want to break something slightly valuable: -The use of "split personality" disorder, or as it's formally known dissociative identify disorder. It's very rare and most psychologists doubt its existence, but it's managed to work its way into a number of fictional pieces. Yeah, what a clever twist! The detective chasing the bad guy was actually both people at once! And he was also his wife! And dog! -Magic. It's not real. Heard of science? It created your computer, the satellites and infrastructure for your boring text messages, and that fast food you're eating. Science had advanced to an amazing level in our society, but we're still talking about dragons and wizards. I apologize to people in advance who are writing in and/or like the fantasy genre. -I don't hate this one as much as I'm confused by its popularity: that the only good leading men left in fiction are widowed men. Maybe this happens more in recent movies, but it's strange how popular it is. Is there something about a positive, strong male character with a wife that's paradoxical? Can we only feel bad about him if his wife is dead? -Statistically unlikely coincidences. It's okay if that ties into a theme with your novel, although that's been done a lot, but it's really unrealistic and pushes me away. So he just happened to meet the one person in the universe who could help him after he gets lost? Really? And the first person he meets? -Vampires and zombies. Sorry, it's not cool anymore, and really wasn't ever cool. Zombies are fun to think about sometimes, but we're kinda saturated at this point, okay? -Incredibly short paragraphs. I understand how it works in the rhythm of the words, and how the break in the paragraph emphasizes that short paragraph. But I've seen it enough that I'm sick of it. If you do it too much, then it makes the writing look like it's for kids. -Main characters who just happen to be writers. Looking at the demographics of people in novels, it makes one believe that writing is just below the service industry in terms of the percentage of the working force. I understand writers write what they know, but it's also supposed to be creative. Branch out a little, okay? Fri, 11 Nov 2011 21:53:47 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=3#forum_thread_comment_652833 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=3#forum_thread_comment_652833 Shem-the-Penman Twins. I'm an identical twin, and I have never, ever read a book or seen a movie that featured twins where the theme wasn't <em>how weird and wacky twins are.</em> And if only one twin is in the story, it's invariably because the other twin died or disappeared in mysterious circumstances and there's psychological trauma or paranormal numbnuttery in the offing. Much as I love David Cronenberg and Zadie Smith, I deplore that they felt the need to dust off the doppelganger conceit for <em>Dead Ringers</em> and <em>White Teeth.</em> I get it. Twins are bad omens and should be drowned at birth, like they were before political correctness ruined our society. Now let's move on. -Shem Mon, 14 Nov 2011 06:32:01 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=3#forum_thread_comment_691038 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=3#forum_thread_comment_691038 Mariana OConnor I'm going to reply to a few of these, because I just can't not. :) <em>-Magic. It's not real.</em> The word is fiction. It's fiction because it's fictional. Magic is fictional. The two don't have to connect, but complaining that something in fiction isn't real seems a bit... like you're missing the point to me. But I am a fantasy fan. I don't consider this a cliche, I consider it a genre choice. <em> that the only good leading men left in fiction are widowed men.</em> I'm not defending this one, I merely have a theory that it makes it clear that they are the settling down type and yet it is socially acceptable for the reader to fantasise about them, they don't have to make themself into the 'other woman'. <em>-Statistically unlikely coincidences</em> I believe that you have to be allowed a number of these to make any novel at all. If a, b and c hadn't all happened to happen, then there wouldn't have been a story to begin with. I agree that when these get to be deus ex machina they're going too far. But why do those things all happen to this one character? Well, they didn't happen to loads of other people, and that's why you're not writing about those other people. <em>-Main characters who just happen to be writers.</em> A case of write what you know, I expect. writers know about being writers. They don't (often) know about being investment bankers or computer programmers or second world war soldiers. In realistic modern-day fiction you're going to find a lot more writers fictionalising their own experiences. Writing about other careers with the same level of knowledge and psychological realism (or just without glaring mistakes that will get you laughed off the shelves) takes more research and effort. Not that research and effort are bad, but you're more likely to get people writing what they know before choosing to write something completely out of their comfort zone. <em>-Incredibly short paragraphs. </em> Personally I don't write long paragraphs. I just don't. I don't know why, it's just not my writing style. Mon, 14 Nov 2011 08:26:26 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=3#forum_thread_comment_692142 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=3#forum_thread_comment_692142 ms.mercy I actually really love references to other works, as long as they're relevant. If they're done right they really give me in insight to a character and help me relate. Characters feel more real to me if they can interact with and reference the real world. Mon, 14 Nov 2011 08:44:25 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_692377 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_692377 robini Egad... I was in a writing program wherein people always complained that women (and girls) who made bad decisions were poor representations of women and didn't we need stronger women??? I remember we read a book about the development of a feminist and it started with her childhood and teenaged years--you know, all those years where she is figuring out her place and she finds that she is used and manipulated in a multitude of ways, and all this eventually helps her form herself into a person of self-worth and strength. The writing students all sat around complaining about her being a weak representation of a woman... it was annoying. You don't come out of the womb strong and self-sufficient. It has to grow and be built. I believe in showing that in my characters. (Of course I was always criticized for that by the other students--my characters had weaknesses! gasp!) Mon, 14 Nov 2011 09:56:17 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_693154 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_693154 robini You make me think of Hubert Selby, Jr. Mon, 14 Nov 2011 09:58:18 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_693173 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_693173 robini I was just writing about this above. It's like strong woman aren't allowed to have developed out of anything. They aren't allowed any complexity or contradiction. I'm sorry critics: humans (yes, even strong women) are walking, talking, breathing contradictions. Mon, 14 Nov 2011 10:04:16 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_693254 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_693254 robini I think that if it is set in a specific place, those streets and places CAN make it seem all the more authentic. I like it when someone writes about a place that I've lived and it is apparent that they actually know the place. I don't like it so much when contemporary names and references are used and they are fleeting--so that a person 5 years from now will not be able to derive meaning from the reference. Mon, 14 Nov 2011 10:10:45 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_693328 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_693328 robini Oregon Rain--I got so sick of writing about writers and college professors that I just had to escape the literary writer world. It truly is annoying. I believe that if being a writer is all a writer knows so they cannot branch out to write about characters who do and know other things, then it is time for them to get out into the world and get some experience other than writing and working as a college professor. (Unless all a writer wants to do is sell to other writers and professors... then whatever... I probably won't read it.) (And I'm a writer and former college professor. So there.) Mon, 14 Nov 2011 10:26:20 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=3#forum_thread_comment_693534 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=3#forum_thread_comment_693534 hollyhawke my characters are mostly writing letters to each other. or not mostly but there sure are a lot of letters in the novel so far. this makes me fearful. Sun, 27 Nov 2011 20:58:39 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=3#forum_thread_comment_870876 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=3#forum_thread_comment_870876 Fiona W Letters in the contemporary era? Letters in what decade? The temporal setting for letters matters a lot. If they're present-day they need to be one of two things: (1) email letters, or (2) postal letters between people who are being fairly conscious about how retro letters are. There's nothing wrong with a retro affection for postal letters in the present time period—I have it!—but if so, you'll need to specify whether they're handwritten, typed on a typewriter, or composed on computer and printed. If hand- or typewriter-written, do the senders make a copy (i.e., scanned) of what they wrote? Whether you have a copy of what you said, to refer back to when you receive the reply, makes a big difference in the quality of a correspondence, in my experience. But the kind of people who have a postal correspondence are going to be different from those who have an email correspondence. And a postal correspondence, if that's what your characters are doing, is quite likely to include elements of mail art. So you might want to bone up on mail art, if you want the correspondence to seem realistic. And don't forget about postcards! Postcards are a flourishing art these days. If you don't believe me, just do a search on "postcards" at the Chronicle Books website. All of these considerations would be important elements of the story, and would be different depending on what decade, all the way back to 1900—or what century, prior to that—that these letters are being sent in. It would bug me, as a reader, if the physical aspects of letters—the media, as it were—were absent from the book, because then it would seem to me that the author was not, herself, a letter writer. Mon, 28 Nov 2011 01:00:36 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=3#forum_thread_comment_872709 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=3#forum_thread_comment_872709 flopart LOL @ your icon. Sat, 03 Dec 2011 22:45:32 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_930812 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_930812 flopart Oh god that book.... Ugh. I had so many issues with that book... Sat, 03 Dec 2011 22:49:09 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_930826 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_930826 Essy A big cliche for me (in terms of young adult fiction) is the klutzy outcast/ girl-next-door whose hopelessly in love with the handsome jock, who, in turn, is constantly manipulated by the popular blonde haired, blue eyed cheerleader/ queen bee who "has it all". The outcast will usually have 2 best friends, one of whom is trendy, artistic and self-confident, the other either incredibly geeky or incredibly smart and opinionated, and, despite being quite pretty, she will hate every fiber of herself just because she isn't a part of the "in" crowd. The jock will turn out to have secretly been in love with her for a while, and suddenly, out of nowhere, will dump his cheerleader girlfirend, who will endlessly plan (usually failed) plots of vengeance. A twist to this cliche will be the klutzy outcast whose best guy friend is in love with her and jealous of her only having eyes for handsome jock. The girl will suddenly realize "how blind" she was all this time, and end up in love with the guy friend, realizing the jock is a flat out, superficial "jack ass". Seriously, it is lazy, overdone, and, above all, exasperating to read these types of plots over and over again. It just makes the storyline cheap, and take away the realism out of High School and adolescence. Half the cheerleaders I see at my school are not even that superficial. Another cliche, especially in teen movies, is the High School where everyone's main interest seems to be sex or "getting laid". Really. Mon, 05 Dec 2011 16:54:54 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=3#forum_thread_comment_938860 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=3#forum_thread_comment_938860 XaristosNevmar Perhaps we should consider the possible number of the ways a story could be told. I think anything and everything could potentially become a cliche. I guess there are only so many ways the human mind can tell a story. Eventually, writers may just go through *all* of the possible permutations and variations of storytelling, narrative, plot details, character development, story development, and so on (if they haven't already). Then, how would writers find new ways to avoid cliches, especially if "everything has been done before?" Tue, 13 Dec 2011 19:37:32 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=3#forum_thread_comment_971315 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=3#forum_thread_comment_971315 Moonlightwriter What about the whole, MC kills the bad guy and then pretty much gets to rule the world? Seriously? We're supposed to believe that they have amazing leadership skills on top of amazing fighting (Or whatever they used to defeat the villain) skills? Wed, 15 Feb 2012 23:55:39 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=3#forum_thread_comment_1143524 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=3#forum_thread_comment_1143524 Cannonball1978 Old houses with libraries chock full of leather bound books that a socially awkward whatever can glory over. Enough with the old houses and their verbose descriptions. The female MC who isn't interested in what her other female peers are interested in. Having to find some sort of key to something. The criminal that uses his criminal skills for good. Mutiny inside of some sort of enclosed space like a boat or spaceship. Advancing the concept of a prophecy and then having it unfurl at the end. Wed, 14 Mar 2012 17:26:23 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=3#forum_thread_comment_1212959 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=3#forum_thread_comment_1212959 reachforthesky Disagree. The problem with first person narration, in my opinion, is that it's easy to write but difficult to write well. I don't think a type of narrative can actually be cliche, though. If that were the case, third person narrative would be more of an issue than first, haha. Fri, 16 Mar 2012 11:05:41 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_1216132 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=2#forum_thread_comment_1216132 reachforthesky I think he has to be widowed because then he is available. ;) Fri, 16 Mar 2012 11:08:34 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=3#forum_thread_comment_1216133 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=3#forum_thread_comment_1216133 SkyeWriter.Imaginarium Where's the "LIKE" button!? Mon, 02 Apr 2012 08:22:11 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_1255878 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/literary-fiction/threads/12941?page=1#forum_thread_comment_1255878