Can someone help me understand this?

So, I have this acquaintance who majored in painting. Being a very practical, science-minded person I don't completely understand why you would do that, but okay. To each her own. But now she's trying to go to grad school... for painting. This is baffling to me. Being the person I am, I can't leave something alone until I understand it, so this has been bugging me for a while.
This next part is going to make me sound like a mean, dream-crushing person, but this is what I've been thinking about ever since she told me about it, so here goes. What could someone possibly get out of that program, besides student debt? She is very talented, but unless you're really lucky that probably won't pay the bills, and she doesn't want to teach art. So why spend all that time and money going to school for it? It makes no sense! But then I think, "Hey, maybe there's something I'm not seeing here." Can anyone here enlighten me? Also, what could you do with a master's in painting that you couldn't do with a bachelor's? There has to be something, or the program wouldn't exist, right?

Before anyone judges me too harshly, I'd just like to add that I am all for doing what you enjoy and following your passions, and I have nothing against the arts (heck, I'm here, aren't I?). And obviously I would never say any of this to her because A)it's really none of my business and B)it's not nice. I'm just a naturally curious (and sometimes nosy) person looking for answers to something that genuinely confuses me.

If you don't get that there are things one does without any expectation of future monetary return, there's not much I can say.

(I will observe, though, that the majority of people who get advanced degrees in, e.g., physics, don't find work in the field...)


Are you suggesting that people should only "invest" in education with a guaranteed payoff? That everyone on graduating high school should consult research on projected employment opportunities in order to choose a college major?

If you really were "all for following...passions", would you actually be asking this question?

I see nothing wrong with this. Someone is studying something they are interested in.

And even if they don't make a living off what they learned, so what. They are now more knowledgeable about the subject than they were before. So she ends out working at Walmart until she manages to sell her first painting and that first $10,000 commissioned painting. She's happy. So what if she just wants to paint in her back room and only her family sees it when she's finished.

I spend hours on these forums and reading book on writing and (gasp) actually pounding out 50K plus words in November even though I might never see more than a few dollars ever coming from that. I participate in ScriptFrenzy even though I have decided I want to become a screenwriter. I just have fun doing it.

I opened up a used bookstore in the small town where I live. During the eight years I was open (I closed it last November) I put several thousand dollars a year INTO it every year and spent countless hours there working with the books. I never MADE any money for it. Why? Because I enjoyed doing it and I liked being around books. If I didn't start losing so much more money in the last few months I was open, I would still be open now.

I can understand the practical side of an education, but there are other aspects of life than just being practical.

How many of us are spending a month, or even years, writing a novel when there is no guarantee we will never derive anything from it other than the satisfaction of completing the manuscript itself?. And if you do make money, it may come years after finally sent the thing out on the 30th mailing.

At least painting is something that she could make money at, even if it was to give art lessons in the neighborhood community center for $20 dollars a student.

I know people who study philosophy for years, what can you really do with that?

My two cents.

If you are truely interested in understanding why a painter paints, without any financial return (and even debt), I suggest you read a few biographies of world famous painters who didn't earn a penny from their work. Van Gogh, for instance, who could have had a nice comfy job as a vicar. (He tried, he couldn't).

Passion can't be explained. You either understand, or you don't.

I think of it as the same as NaNoWriMo, in a way. Even if you don't gain something from it - at least, something other people will see as a worthy payoff - you're enjoying it.

I don't go to art school, but I am an artist, and so far, I've paid a lot more out than I've earned - but I'm happy. I've recently started out on the convention circuit and the general rule is that you need to go to conventions, and lots of them, for about three years before you'll start to earn even a little profit. So far I've tabled at one convention and just applied for another, and am in the process of completing a comic for it. Both have cost me well over £150, and I don't expect to break even in this one at all. I do take commissions, and yes, sometimes they do earn me a nice bit of money, but not enough to cover convention costs and definitely not enough to live on. Yet there are loads of us who do it. And why? Because we love it, just because writers write because they love it. :)

Frankly, I see your friend getting more out of the educational system than too many others out there. Most people go to school because that's what you're "supposed" to do. The educational system has long since forgotten that schools are supposed to enlighten and enrich students. It's all about doing a ton of busy work in hopes that some company will be impressed, although employers will still turn down college grads if they lack the skills.

If it's something that truly moves her, than good on her. You can't put a price on finding something like that.

I completely understand where you're coming from. It's the concept of "why are you paying so much money to get a degree in something that you can learn to do on your own". Like writing; how many of us on here actually have English degrees or Creative Writing degrees? How many published authors do? Not many.

I think, 100 years ago, going to study art under a "master" was a lot more important than it is today. Taking classes in the basics are important--just like taking a class in the basics of grammar and spelling are important to a writer.

It's a matter of getting a practical education that will pay the bills, so you can pursue your passions in your spare time and not have to worry about how you're going to feed yourself. Personally, I find the concept of the starving artist/writer/whatever to be over-idolized.

People who say that you don't have enough time to pursue art or writing while working a full time job are full of crap. I work 40+ hours a week as an engineer, and I make time to write every single day. Maybe I'm at an advantage--I don't have a boyfriend, and I don't have kids or pets. But those are also lifestyle choices I've made. I go out with friends on a fairly regular basis, so it's not like I'm some sort of recluse.

There are some professions that more or less require a degree of any sort, or advanced degrees--lawyers, doctors, engineers, architects, etc. "Vocational" professions, if you will. Something like art, if you aren't planning on being an art teacher, shouldn't require 4+ years of $40k+/year education. But, well, I've never really looked into it, so maybe working for an animation company like Disney or DreamWorks likes seeing people having art degrees? Who knows.

The value of a graduate degree in art is subjective. Any 'growth' in the artist's skill is self-assessed rather than quantifiable. Only some disciplines and techniques hold up well to measurement—how do you judge which is the 'better' impressionistic painting? Or the more 'advanced' abstract sculpture?

To be realistic, she's probably doing it because she can't find a job right now—and she's not the only one. There are a LOT of people looking into grad school because student loans cover room and board and they don't have to make payments while still in school. They are trading future debt in hopes of a future better job market.

I'll be paying my student loans until 2019—and I've daydreamed about going back to school myself just to avoid them for a while. *sighs*

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I would say that the reason for an advanced arts degree is mostly financial, but there may be other factors. The ability to study with/under a particular "master" would be one non-financial reason. Financial reasons include getting a recognized "cred" for teaching - when you are not that well known having a degree after your name could draw more "customers". One other thing is that there are "art" techniques, and there is also the science behind it. For music it might be the design of instruments, for painting it could be chemistry of the paints themselves and finding ways to slow down or prevent fading over time.

And for the technical minded we hear a lot about the Bill Gates's and Steve Jobs's that drop out and make fortunes, but for each one of them there are hundreds that advance their careers by either getting advanced degrees or going back for a second degree in a slightly different field. It's not always about the prestige or money, either - it may be simply keeping current with the technology.

Having a degree in painting isn't so bad, you can branch out to other areas, such as digital media, illustration, book covers, typography, graphic design, design, etc. You are required to do that in undergrad.

She had a lot of job avenues open to her if she finishes the degree, and some of them do make serious money that might make you as a vet student cry in a corner.

If you narrow-mindedly look at only the painting rather than the art degree in of itself, then of course it won't make sense to you, but if you do undegrad in producing art--that's enough to get you some decent money if you really work on it.

For reference, look at Michael Whelan, my favorite book cover artist. The artist who did the work for the Labyrinth--I met him and he also makes really decent money doing concept sketches for film. You also can end up doing teaching, designing theme parks, etc.

Dare I say it, but you lack imagination. A graphic designer out of the gate can get 20-25 dollars and hour. That's a fairly good amount of money.

Besides, I wouldn't begrudge what people love to do. If they are passionate about it--it is their business, even if they utterly suck at it.

As for the lack of MFAs in Creative Writing on websites and among authors, I think I blame the MFA programs more--my peeve with them is that they 1. Hate genre writing (by and large). 2. Often teach authors that are "good" and "virtuous" (and often white, CIS, heterosexual, and maybe if they can get away with it male.) 3. Teach from the perspective of the reader. 4. Are totally lost on how to teach a writer to be a writer besides do the same thing they do in work shops, which you can often get for free. 5. There are better retreats/workshops that are cheaper and do more for ones career.

That is very different from art classes, art classes, the type that make you draw every class has someone who is into producing the art and if you get a good one, they will allow for a variety of styles and then give tips and tricks to refine those styles and they way you output your art. Writing classes I've taken never have had the same qualities, instead they slap you with, "Well, what literary quality do you think this has?" which can come off as elitist.

As someone whose done a little ballet, taken writing classes, piano classes, music in general, art classes (at a college level), etc. I can tell you that I think writing classes suck the most. No one knows how to teach a writing class beyond brainstorming ideas and doing prompts. Then when the analysis comes around, it's in terms of the reader rather than the writer.

So, here I wouldn't begrudge your friend. She really is getting mileage by getting a Masters.