In your opinion, can a 12 year old fall in love?

toothybeastie — Fri, 27 Jan 2012 22:40:31 -0800

Basically, what it says on the tin- can someone as young as 12 fall in love? The recipient of her affections is basically her bodyguard and does not and will not return the romantic feelings because, well, she's 12 and he's 2000+ and that would be nassssty.

Re: In your opinion, can a 12 year old fall in love?

vampyre_smiles — Sat, 28 Jan 2012 00:07:14 -0800

I think it would be unlikely (more likely would be a strong infatuation), but when it comes to emotions and people, I can't say anything is impossible. But she would have to be very emotionally mature for a 12 year old, and at some point realize that, even if she does love him (as opposed to said infatuation) she shouldn't try anything and at least, well, wait until she's older. If you meant in love as in a crush or infatuation, then yes. Definitely. I was having crushes on people (my age or not) in kindergarten. As a question to you, what is your character's idea of love? She'll probably think she loves him/is in love with him either way, but what does "love" mean to her? Dating? Kissing? (More, if she knows about that?) Sharing time with the person? Caring about their well-fare? Wanting them to always be around (whether they're happy or not)? Something else?

Re: In your opinion, can a 12 year old fall in love?

toothybeastie — Sat, 28 Jan 2012 00:10:45 -0800

Hmmm, she's been reading too many smutty romance novels to have a typical kid's view on love, but she'd likely see the MMC as someone she'd just want to be around. Forever. Sort of a half-rescue-romance and half powerful infatuation/admiration perspective.

Re: In your opinion, can a 12 year old fall in love?

vampyre_smiles — Sat, 28 Jan 2012 00:25:42 -0800

Personally, I could see that going a lot of ways. Depends on what she realizes about her feelings and the situation, and how she acts on that. :) Ok, I'll let other people answer if they want to, instead of hogging the thread. XD

Re: In your opinion, can a 12 year old fall in love?

aliaswriter — Sat, 28 Jan 2012 05:03:34 -0800

Sounds like hero worship to me. Although it's not impossible, it's not likely that she is in love, only because at that age, most likely she doesn't fully understand what love really is. Usually at that age it is either infatuation or puppy love.

Re: In your opinion, can a 12 year old fall in love?

Gerd D. — Sat, 28 Jan 2012 08:48:18 -0800

Hmm, not sure. But then again when I was twelve I had barely discovered that there are two kinds of people on this world, so I'm probably not much to judge this. Could I believe that a 12-year old might actually fall in love? Possibly. I'm an easy reader, I'm most of the time half-ways willing to believe everything the author presents to me if only it is brought up convincing enough. And long as nothing happens from it, gee, why not?

Re: In your opinion, can a 12 year old fall in love?

alysdragon — Sat, 28 Jan 2012 09:08:28 -0800

I'd say yes, but that it would not be the same as adult love. It would be a combination of things like infatuation, pre-pubescent lust and hero worship, as well as a possible conception of him as a father figure - it would, very unlikely, be the basis for an adult relationship. So, yes, people might easily say it's a 'crush' or 'puppy love'. The thing is, I've always hated those terms because they undermine how strong and important it will be to her at the time. Children, and pre teens, are capable of very deep and sincere attachments, and getting hurt at that age can absolutely devastate an individual in terms of trust, commitment and mental health in later years. They are also capable of transient but intense infatuations that feel very strong but can be broken off or dropped with no real harm done. So, if you show a serious, underlying affection and affinity between the two, which her stirring hormones enhance, I could totally believe it. But deep affection which forms at that age tends, later, to be replaced by new attachments, even though that relationship would still have a hold on her.

Re: In your opinion, can a 12 year old fall in love?

Red Queen — Sat, 28 Jan 2012 11:22:14 -0800

I would strongly oppose that though, even in a novel; there is one reason why: The Black Jewels Trilogy. 12-year-old Jaenelle meets 2500-year-old Daemon and, well, love on first sight. This seemed so ridiculous to me that I avoid books with young heroes/heroines, because I know sooner or later, something similarly awful will happen... And yes to the hero worship thing.

Re: In your opinion, can a 12 year old fall in love?

Burl Bird — Sat, 28 Jan 2012 13:03:04 -0800

I think she's just too young. When 12 year-old girls and much, much older guys come in question, I think of Nabokov's "Lolita", but also of "The City of Lost Children" and "Leon, the Professional". The last two are good examples of how you might want to treat a potentially awkward (not to say pedophile) relationships...

Re: In your opinion, can a 12 year old fall in love?

neverwinterrains — Sat, 28 Jan 2012 14:23:47 -0800

Personally, I don't think a 12 year old is emotionally complex enough to "fall in love." Lust, sure. Crush, why not? Infatuation, definitely. But falling in love is something much more complex than that, something that I don't think a lot of teenagers are even capable of. She might think it's love, but to her older suitor, it would be something very, very different.

Re: In your opinion, can a 12 year old fall in love?

Hanka — Sat, 28 Jan 2012 14:38:02 -0800

Um, yes?! You don't know who's out there, and I'm sure there's a twelve-year-old who is in love with her bodyguard, too. Just do it. There are kids who are really mature and profound, believe me.

Re: In your opinion, can a 12 year old fall in love?

TommehBell — Sat, 28 Jan 2012 15:30:24 -0800

I don't think that a 12 year has the capacity to understand what real love is. Hell few adults understand what it means to really love someone. Crushes, infatuations, hero worship, fan girling yes of course. I've done it all and had a throughly good time doing it. Learned a lot and wouldn't trade those experiences for anything and I think all young people should. Its healthy, but actual real love...I don't think so. And the thing that makes it cute to adults is how hard the 12 year old believes they are really in love.

Re: In your opinion, can a 12 year old fall in love?

Honeybadger12345 — Sat, 28 Jan 2012 18:20:17 -0800

Well, if you believe the entire "Triangular Theory of Love" idea, than one's love would consist of this, I guess. 1. Intimacy – Which encompasses feelings of attachment, closeness, connectedness, and bondedness. 2. Passion – Which encompasses drives connected to both limerence and sexual attraction. 3. Commitment – Which encompasses, in the short term, the decision to remain with another, and in the long term, the shared achievements and plans made with that other. I'm not sure if I completely believe it or not, but I do think "true love" does need to have both an intimate, compassionate side, where the MC would want to be committed to the person and share their secrets with them, and also must have a sexual side (unless she's, of course, asexual). Twelve is about that age where a lot of people experience a sexual awakening (or at least close to one). But, even If she finds herself both emotionally and physically attracted to him, I still would somewhat scoff at rhe idea of a twelve-year-old actually falling in love. Maybe, has nearly everyone else said, an over exaggerated crush or infatuation or hero worship she confuses with "love," but not real, adult love. To me, it's like when people in my high school say "I love you" after going out for less than a week, and then they break up a month later. And then it happens again, and again...

Re: In your opinion, can a 12 year old fall in love?

FreakierThanThou — Sat, 28 Jan 2012 18:33:37 -0800

Do you have to define it in-story? She can say she's in love with him, he can say she's too young to know what love is, someone else can say she's mature enough but he shouldn't do anything because ick. The readers can make their own decisions as to whether it's real love or not. That's how I'd write it, at least. If you want my opinion on the question you actually asked instead of unwarranted random advice, I'd say it's probably possible but unusual. At 12, I had crushes, but I knew they weren't what most people would call love. I'm 20 and I've never told someone I loved them in a romantic sense. I wouldn't say I'm at all an expert on what love is, but I think twelve year olds have much more emotional capacity than most people give them credit for. That being said, I wouldn't read a book that was a love story between a twelve year old and an adult, be they 20 or 2000. Onesided crush subplot, sure, just keep it at that.

Re: In your opinion, can a 12 year old fall in love?

Screnwriter — Sat, 28 Jan 2012 19:00:33 -0800

The book "Angel Isle" by Peter Dickinson has a romance like this, I believe — a twelve-year-old-ish girl falls in love with a fifty-year-old-ish man. It's an important subplot. They part ways at the end of the book because he, and eventually she, believes that she needs to grow up and have at least a chance at liking someone her own age before they can decide about being together. I don't remember if I liked them as a potential couple (I had very mixed feelings about the book), but it was more believable than the romances in a couple of other stories I've read, so you might be able to get some ideas about how he handles it. Now, as for real life, I had my first crush that I knew was a crush at age twelve, on a boy I knew in my singing group. It was very strong, very enjoyable, and it lasted a grand total of three days. A year later I couldn't imagine what I'd seen in the guy. That crush made me feel a lot better about going through puberty (which wasn't a process I'd been liking much), but real love it was not. I've crushed on and been otherwise drawn to several other people since then, but I don't believe I genuinely fell in love until last year, at age twenty-one. In short, a twelve-year-old might be able to fall in love, but you're going to have to develop it very carefully to get your readers to believe it.

Re: In your opinion, can a 12 year old fall in love?

throughasplendour — Sat, 28 Jan 2012 22:01:18 -0800

Feelings are no less real for children than for adults. Adults can suffer stupid infatuations as much as children. There's no reason to assume a child can't feel anything deeper when we've got adults falling in "twue wuv" at first sight piled up on every available surface in fiction. If she falls in love with him she falls in love with him.

Re: In your opinion, can a 12 year old fall in love?

Coffee_Plate — Sat, 28 Jan 2012 22:33:34 -0800

Yes. People of any age can be in love. There is no age limit as to when people fall in love and everybody experiences love differently. Plus, saying young people can't love is akin to saying that couples celebrating their fiftieth anniversaries can't possibly be in love because they have been together too long. Sure, 12 year olds aren't as experienced, but they are still human beings. However, when it comes to the type of love that is healthy and mature, probably not. Nobody is capable of loving someone in a mature manner all the time. And for someone who is younger, it would be even more difficult since a child generally needs more support than an adult.

Re: In your opinion, can a 12 year old fall in love?

Notkieran — Sun, 29 Jan 2012 02:22:53 -0800

A 12 year old can believe she is in love, with all the physical consequences thereof. Her problem is not that she cannot feel love or a reasonable facsimile. It is that she is not a position to handle the consequences.

Re: In your opinion, can a 12 year old fall in love?

toothybeastie — Tue, 31 Jan 2012 12:42:01 -0800

Wow!!! Thanks, guys! The love thing is intended as a kind of subplot, as I really suck at writing pure romance novels. Also, there's no chance or suggestion of any romantic attraction on the bodyguard's part- he sees her as a daughter figure (eventually) and a bit of a pest (at first).

Re: In your opinion, can a 12 year old fall in love?

Mikiki — Tue, 31 Jan 2012 19:44:39 -0800

Yes, a 12 year old call fall in love, but never, ever take it overboard. Crushes are the best way to go, and if you want some real love stuff, I would make them older, depending on the story and how you've described your characters. Honestly love for a 12 year old is more of a crush than an actual true love thing.

Re: In your opinion, can a 12 year old fall in love?

theInsane — Tue, 31 Jan 2012 20:23:00 -0800

if you haven't, you should read the FIRST half of the book "Man on Fire". the second half i found incredibly trite and cliche but in the first half you have a screwed-up, older, ex-mercenary who is hired to be a bodyguard to an 11(or 12, can't remember) year old girl. she's curious about him and basically wants to befriend him while he (at first) definitely sees her as something of a pest. it's not exactly like the situation you have because the girl in the book wasn't exactly infatuated with the bodyguard but it did do a good job of showing how an understanding developed between them. SPOILER: (which only made it that much more irritating when the girl gets kidnapped and killed and the story goes on with this very, very, very cliched "angry man out for revenge but finds twu wuv along the way now that he's had his heart opened" crap.... frankly, i found the friendship between the 11y.o. and the bodyguard much more compelling to read about them him sleeping with the pretty-but-useless woman with a angsty past and then taking off to pursue his likely-suicidal revenge plot while pretty-but-useless sat on her a** and waited for him to return to her. *gag*)

Re: In your opinion, can a 12 year old fall in love?

helltank — Wed, 01 Feb 2012 04:04:27 -0800

It's possible, though unlikely. Just make sure it's not Lolita II.

Re: In your opinion, can a 12 year old fall in love?

BlueFeatherMuse — Wed, 01 Feb 2012 16:57:52 -0800

Like some others said, the 12 year old would have to be EXTREMELY emotionally mature. Even then, it's a stretch. I know from my own experiences that I thought I was "in love" with my "boyfriend" at the time. But now that I am much older, I realized that what I thought was "love" was more of an unhealthy infatuation. I don't think 12 year olds have the emotional capability to love someone in that sort of a romantic way--the heartbreak, the physical aspects such as kissing and stuff, and all of the ways your body reacts to certain emotions or physical touch.

Re: In your opinion, can a 12 year old fall in love?

helltank — Thu, 02 Feb 2012 01:13:35 -0800

^ How can you be sure?

Re: In your opinion, can a 12 year old fall in love?

Burl Bird — Thu, 02 Feb 2012 05:24:08 -0800

Let's just THINK here for a moment. Who thinks that a prepubescent child is LIKELY to have grasped the meaning of her own sexuality and the meaning of her own mortality? I think it's highly unlikely. I work with 11 to 14 year-olds. They are very intelligent, loyal, socially active and committed. But in their age they are still struggling to properly understand what it means to be "sexual": before they reach puberty they either ignore it or act awkward when faced with it, just as children do; after they reach puberty most of them are confused and need a couple of years of adaptation. When it comes to mortality, 12 year-olds have some basic understanding, but it is very superficial. They can surprise an adult by showing deeper understanding, but I always suspect that to be an exception, not a rule. Basically, they haven't (hopefully) experienced death in all it's form, and the lack of knowledge and experience make them both ignorant and innocent. Which is, by itself, a fascinating combination, and they are a tremendous inspiration... Now, to look at the character of a 12 year old princess which feels "love" for her immortal bodyguard. I'm guessing it is all happening in a pre-industrial or early industrial setting. The fact that aristocracy in 16th century married by the age of 11 doesn't tell us anything about their conception of "love": what we call love and what they called love (which differs but is related) had nothing to do with those marriages. They were political, and they were traumatic for young girls. Many of those marriages ended with girls dying while giving birth - most of them younger then 15. But the main motivating reason for those relationship were political and involved LOYALTY as the main motivator. A 12 year old princess can be loyal. To her family, nation, husband, bodyguard. But is she going to be sexual? And then we have mortality. If she's a princess (with a bodyguard) she is probably guarded from the outside world. She might have been in contact with war, famine, and plague. A lot of people died of simple cold (by the mid 20th century!) because of lack of basic medical care. And millions die TODAY of famine. So, she is likely to have experienced more death in her life then an average modern preteen. But the question you have to ask is: whether she is able to grasp her OWN mortality? It's a tough question, but is necessary to ask if you want a stable, emotionally mature character. The most likely answer (based on thousands of years of human experience) is: religion. Basically, she is going to be a very religious little princess. The only way she is LIKELY to grasp mortality by her age (and in her historical age) is through religion. Now, I know most of you would just say - "baaaah, religion, get outta here!" - but try to think about it first. Do you know of ANY other civilization except modern western civilization where religion didn't (doesn't) play crucial role in both personal and social life? How does this reflect the character of 12 year old princess in love? It depends on the religion. Now I'm not saying you need an abrahamic-type religion in your story. Shintoism or some sort of shamanism is just good enough. But in a world where Freud, Marx and Kant didn't exist I can't see any other way a character can hope to enter the world of mature humans. Prove me wrong. Name an example. The things start to complicate with two additional facts: 1. she's in "love" with an older guy, 2. he is 200 year old (immortal or long-lived? an elf, a vampire or a MacLaud?) I'm not going to dwell deeper in his character, which would be fascinating by itself. I'll just stick to their relationship. Which is a complicated one. The one of loyalty, commitment and trust. Entering a sexual relationship with a prepubescent child makes your character a Humbert Humbert... One of the most disgusting characters of modern literature. And that's not good. It also makes him a hypocrite - for breaking the oath he has presumably given to her family. And breaking HER trust, too... etc... Also, if he IS immortal, how likely it is for him to be able to fully embrace mature love - the one of giving and sacrifice? He has no mortality - she has little to no understanding of her own mortality. Can she learn from him about mortality? Can she learn to treasure life, to grow emotionally and mature as a person? Can she hope to get ANYTHING of consequence for her personal growth out of this relationship? What would be the MORAL of such a love story? (if you consider it a "love" story in the first place?) So, in order to write it and not ignite a pedo-bear alert you have to stick to one-way feelings. The ones of affection. Maybe even infatuation. But "love"? I don't think so. Juliet turned 14. Romeo was 16. They died a horrible (romantic, but still horrible) death due to circumstances beyond their understanding. That's a tragedy. Characters die to show "love" is not a possibility without social consent. No happy ending. No growth of character. No time to move from "eros" to "agape" - from lust and affection to sharing, understanding, maturing and true loving.

Re: In your opinion, can a 12 year old fall in love?

Itzika — Thu, 02 Feb 2012 12:08:49 -0800

I've heard that human brains are wired to only be "in love" for around two years, and after that the feelings become more nurturing so that you're motivated to take care of your hypothetical kids. So while I think anyone can fall in love (a couple years ago there was a story about a five- and six-year-old couple trying to elope), I don't think love is built to last. Then again, I'm in a really bad mood right now. Ask me again tomorrow.

Re: In your opinion, can a 12 year old fall in love?

alysdragon — Thu, 02 Feb 2012 14:04:20 -0800

I might push you on that because that is a very cynical view. People keep telling me that my infatuation with my husband will wear off soon - I'm still waiting, it's been 9 years and we still act like hormonal teenagers about certain things. Children just leave you with less energy, that's all. XD

Re: In your opinion, can a 12 year old fall in love?

inthemargins — Thu, 02 Feb 2012 16:19:42 -0800

I agree with you so much it's uncanny. Thank you for being better with words than I am. ._.

Re: In your opinion, can a 12 year old fall in love?

Writing_Ninja — Thu, 02 Feb 2012 17:32:32 -0800

If you have to ask this question, is it really needed in the story? I would hesitate reading something like that, even if it is one sided.

Re: In your opinion, can a 12 year old fall in love?

XVisiEX — Thu, 02 Feb 2012 22:34:20 -0800

[quote=Burl Bird] Let's just THINK here for a moment. Who thinks that a prepubescent child is LIKELY to have grasped the meaning of her own sexuality and the meaning of her own mortality? I think it's highly unlikely. I work with 11 to 14 year-olds. They are very intelligent, loyal, socially active and committed. But in their age they are still struggling to properly understand what it means to be "sexual": before they reach puberty they either ignore it or act awkward when faced with it, just as children do; after they reach puberty most of them are confused and need a couple of years of adaptation. When it comes to mortality, 12 year-olds have some basic understanding, but it is very superficial. They can surprise an adult by showing deeper understanding, but I always suspect that to be an exception, not a rule. Basically, they haven't (hopefully) experienced death in all it's form, and the lack of knowledge and experience make them both ignorant and innocent. Which is, by itself, a fascinating combination, and they are a tremendous inspiration... Now, to look at the character of a 12 year old princess which feels "love" for her immortal bodyguard. I'm guessing it is all happening in a pre-industrial or early industrial setting. The fact that aristocracy in 16th century married by the age of 11 doesn't tell us anything about their conception of "love": what we call love and what they called love (which differs but is related) had nothing to do with those marriages. They were political, and they were traumatic for young girls. Many of those marriages ended with girls dying while giving birth - most of them younger then 15. But the main motivating reason for those relationship were political and involved LOYALTY as the main motivator. A 12 year old princess can be loyal. To her family, nation, husband, bodyguard. But is she going to be sexual? And then we have mortality. If she's a princess (with a bodyguard) she is probably guarded from the outside world. She might have been in contact with war, famine, and plague. A lot of people died of simple cold (by the mid 20th century!) because of lack of basic medical care. And millions die TODAY of famine. So, she is likely to have experienced more death in her life then an average modern preteen. But the question you have to ask is: whether she is able to grasp her OWN mortality? It's a tough question, but is necessary to ask if you want a stable, emotionally mature character. The most likely answer (based on thousands of years of human experience) is: religion. Basically, she is going to be a very religious little princess. The only way she is LIKELY to grasp mortality by her age (and in her historical age) is through religion. Now, I know most of you would just say - "baaaah, religion, get outta here!" - but try to think about it first. Do you know of ANY other civilization except modern western civilization where religion didn't (doesn't) play crucial role in both personal and social life? How does this reflect the character of 12 year old princess in love? It depends on the religion. Now I'm not saying you need an abrahamic-type religion in your story. Shintoism or some sort of shamanism is just good enough. But in a world where Freud, Marx and Kant didn't exist I can't see any other way a character can hope to enter the world of mature humans. Prove me wrong. Name an example. The things start to complicate with two additional facts: 1. she's in "love" with an older guy, 2. he is 200 year old (immortal or long-lived? an elf, a vampire or a MacLaud?) I'm not going to dwell deeper in his character, which would be fascinating by itself. I'll just stick to their relationship. Which is a complicated one. The one of loyalty, commitment and trust. Entering a sexual relationship with a prepubescent child makes your character a Humbert Humbert... One of the most disgusting characters of modern literature. And that's not good. It also makes him a hypocrite - for breaking the oath he has presumably given to her family. And breaking HER trust, too... etc... Also, if he IS immortal, how likely it is for him to be able to fully embrace mature love - the one of giving and sacrifice? He has no mortality - she has little to no understanding of her own mortality. Can she learn from him about mortality? Can she learn to treasure life, to grow emotionally and mature as a person? Can she hope to get ANYTHING of consequence for her personal growth out of this relationship? What would be the MORAL of such a love story? (if you consider it a "love" story in the first place?) So, in order to write it and not ignite a pedo-bear alert you have to stick to one-way feelings. The ones of affection. Maybe even infatuation. But "love"? I don't think so. Juliet turned 14. Romeo was 16. They died a horrible (romantic, but still horrible) death due to circumstances beyond their understanding. That's a tragedy. Characters die to show "love" is not a possibility without social consent. No happy ending. No growth of character. No time to move from "eros" to "agape" - from lust and affection to sharing, understanding, maturing and true loving. [/quote] Well said, very well said.

Re: In your opinion, can a 12 year old fall in love?

toothybeastie — Sun, 05 Feb 2012 17:58:21 -0800

WhoaaAaaa! Lots of info here! Thank you! It's actually a contemporary/urban fantasy setting and she's not a princess, just the last of her particular family-bloodline. He's a very long lived faery who is definitely not in love with her at ALL. Not even slightly. No romantic/sexual feelings on his part whatsoever. Any romantic feelings would come from her side. Yeahhh!

Re: In your opinion, can a 12 year old fall in love?

toothybeastie — Sun, 05 Feb 2012 18:01:53 -0800

I am considering tossing out the whole love thing altogether; the two characters work much better as two people who don't even want to be stuck together in the first place and eventually (belligerent) friends.

Re: In your opinion, can a 12 year old fall in love?

Writing_Ninja — Tue, 07 Feb 2012 08:22:37 -0800

you could throw in another crush in there. The girl meets someone her age and talks about romance to the point that it annoys the heck out of the body guard.

Re: In your opinion, can a 12 year old fall in love?

Itzika — Tue, 07 Feb 2012 13:54:50 -0800

For the love of all that is good, please no. The girl falling in love with her bodyguard is weird, but understandable. (And honestly, as long as it stays one-sided on her part, I'd be okay with it. Little kids have crushes on inappropriate people. They grow out of it. The problem is when the inappropriate person takes advantage of this.) The girl falling in love with a random kid her age who was just shoehorned into the plot for that purpose is, well, shoehorned into the plot and pointless.

Re: In your opinion, can a 12 year old fall in love?

KaelynAngelfoot — Tue, 07 Feb 2012 15:30:47 -0800

I've never read the book but I loved the movie. It left out Creasy's "pretty-but-useless" girlfriend completely.

Re: In your opinion, can a 12 year old fall in love?

theInsane — Wed, 08 Feb 2012 10:28:50 -0800

[quote=KaelynAngelfoot] I've never read the book but I loved the movie. It left out Creasy's "pretty-but-useless" girlfriend completely. [/quote] wow... i just looked up the plot synopsis on IMDB - i definitely like the sounds of that version better!! (though i don't know why they changed the character's races around... in the book i'm pretty sure Creasy was white and the girl was a dark-haired Italian but i guess you can't have everything)

Re: In your opinion, can a 12 year old fall in love?

bobo_the_bard — Wed, 08 Feb 2012 15:58:40 -0800

We need a <3 button. Very well said!

Re: In your opinion, can a 12 year old fall in love?

bobo_the_bard — Wed, 08 Feb 2012 16:01:15 -0800

I think, given the ages of the characters, it might work much better that way. At the most, I'd have her having a crush on him, in the way children have. It would just take waaay too much exposition to explain how the whole love thing would work, and to make it not pedobear, or to have an unnaturally mature 12 year old. :-P

Re: In your opinion, can a 12 year old fall in love?

toothybeastie — Wed, 08 Feb 2012 19:06:24 -0800

Agreeeeeed :D