Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

IVIilitarus — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 07:51:15 -0800

I know the spirit of NaNoWriMo is writing a novel. A major part of that is never going back and deleting. If you hate it, make the font white or strikethrough. Or make it a dream sequence, but don't go back. I saw the Adopt an Angel section and thought it insane that you would never delete a single sentence (still do). I this may be because a lot of people are struggling with reaching word counts and any word should be kept, but I don't see the point of disliking editing if you are ahead of schedule. This is my first year in NaNoWriMo and I write a comfortable 2000 words per day for an expected novel of just over 60000 words by the end of the month. When I say I write 2000 words per day, I mean I have 2000 words up to my standard, written, re-written and edited and ready to hand out to people and say, "This is actually pretty good." I iron out all spelling, grammar errors and make structure and syntax worth reading. That's my definition of 'write', not just put down lots of sentences. So the real question is, what's wrong with editing when you are ahead of schedule and just want to write to a high standard? I wouldn't be proud if I came out with a pile of trash that's very long. If I left all of the mistakes and bad sentences I wrote in, I'd probably be unable to read anything, much less edit it. Any thoughts? Arguments? Agreements?

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

H. — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 07:58:04 -0800

I agree. I edit as I go, then ever four chapters go back and do another edit. but then, I hit 15 thousand on day one. I'm writing a novel I've planned for and I want it to be good. Even last year, I edited my book as I wet, and I wasn't ahead. I still have minor errors (comma's) but the structure and story is good.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Dream Hacker — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 08:08:50 -0800

It isn't about low quality. It isn't even about not editing. It's about editing later (as in not during November!) I can understand editing while you go, but for a lot of people if they start to do that they panic. Sometimes they delete the good stuff. But I think the main reason the emphasis on not editing during November is to prevent thinking "Oh my God, this is total crap! I hate it! What was I thinking?" Then lots of people give up.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

BloodRoseAngel — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 08:13:51 -0800

I'm on 34k via not going back and nitpicking as I do with all my normal novels. XD I've written some REALLY bad sentences in this novel, but they're staying, at least until NaNo is over and I rewrite the entire thing. I've still got the proof copy of my NaNo 2010 novel, which I got printed with only the typos removed, not any of the bad writing, so I can rewrite it when I'm ready. The aim here is to splurge your story out and then sort it out later. It's not your finished novel - it's the skeleton of your novel, a big mess that you can sort out later. ;) Don't think "MUST EDIT!" - just think, "This can all be sorted out and made pretty later." :D

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Luna54 — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 08:26:37 -0800

I'm finding the NaNo way of writing really hard. I used to work as a sub-editor and I find it so difficult not to edit as I go. As I'm only on 7,400 words though I've got to change my ways otherwise I'll never do it. It'll look strange as I've got 28 pages of correct spelling and grammar and all of a sudden it's going to go to pot!

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Anke — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 08:32:46 -0800

I think that "don't ever edit, just get the draft out!" is mostly for the benefit of people who don't get anywhere because they edit too much. Spending months and years with planning, starting the first chapter, going back and rewriting things because it's not PERFECT yet, writing another chapter or two, getting a new idea that would need a change in chapter one, going back to the start and rewriting and editing and worrying that it's not the best it could be yet. And they never reach the last chapter, because the worrying and editing and revamping bogs them down until they give up. If that kind of thing is what keeps you from ever finishing a story, the emphasis on "it's a rough first draft, do NOT edit, do not ever edit before you finish the first draft, just write it even if it's crap" can help.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Nakor — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 08:33:46 -0800

If you can keep ahead of pace it's totally fine. Since I'm posting my story online as I go, of course I'll at least squeeze a little editing in. The problem is getting 50000+ words of perfection the first time is nigh impossible. Moreover, editing that is plot related (as opposed to spelling, grammar, etc.) is not the easiest to do prior to having the rest of your plot written. Odds are you'll make a change only to find out that either a whole chain of changes are needed or that later, when you have more written, the scene you just fixed will need fixing again anyway. So editing as you go isn't bad, but editing stuff you wrote days before is just going to dig you a hole. The "ban" on editing is really more about those major edits than edits on the fly.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

zanitas — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 08:40:02 -0800

Because for me, when I don't think to much about making it as good as possible I can write faster. Then once November's over, I can take as long as I want to edit and rewrite.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Mellotron — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 08:43:29 -0800

That sounds fine, but it also sounds like you have WAAAYY more time on your hands than most of us (i.e. 9-5 jobs, come home and it's time to do chores, sort out kids, eat dinner, go to bed). I'm sure if you have time to edit on the fly, go for it. I think perhaps the suggestion is for those who would never meet the 50k if they kept going back and obsessively editing/re-editing.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

paperlanterns — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 08:56:28 -0800

There are a lot of things that you just can't edit until you have a full draft. Of course you can go through and proofread and fix minor grammatical, typographical and syntactical errors. But that doesn't mean your draft will be ready for its debut. Even proofed and touched up in minor ways... I still wouldn't consider a scene ready to handover to someone to read until I've done a real editing pass after the whole novel is written. You can really discover a lot about your story when writing a novel and sometimes something you write in the middle will make something you wrote in the beginning incorrect or incomplete. Sometimes something at the end of the story will require you to make some pretty big changes in the middle. Which is why editing as you go can be kind of pointless, you know? You can perfect your first few chapters as you go, but what happens when they need a massive overhaul after you've finished and changed some things around about your plot and characters?

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Floit63 — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 08:58:37 -0800

Some people need the freedom to be able to write complete and utter nonsense. It's the only way they can let go of the pressure to make everything perfect the first time around (which, honestly, isn't possible for 99% of people anyway). It also means being able to keep in things that may not be relevant to the plot later on. For instance, right now I have about 1500 words of explaining my character and world because it decided to change on me all of a sudden. That won't be going into the final story, but it is helpful to getting a sense of direction. Same with the small scenes from my character's past that play into how he responds to things within the plot. Some people need that ability to change things on the fly (especially the 'by the seat of your pants' group) without worrying about losing word count.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

bethieboops — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 09:12:02 -0800

For me, I have a really hard time sitting down to write. The first few sentences of a chapter or scene are always terrible because I have set myself up against an outrageous bar of perfection. I believe that the introduction to new ideas has to radiate awesome and it can be down right paralyzing. I appreciate the sentiment that I can edit those shaky sentences later, after November. Otherwise I sit there, writing and re-writing the first handful of sentences until I give up. Its what has led me to writing screenplays, poetry, even short stories, before touching a novel. Less ideas, less stopping and starting. It's an entirely frustrating process. For me, this NaNo is about getting out an idea I've carried around for ages. If I hate it after November, I hate it. But unless I assimilate those words, put that story in some sort of order, I will never have anything to polish into gleaming awesomeness.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

belesaria — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 09:28:12 -0800

My problem: I sit down to write, and I have the pen to the paper, and I think "Now, this scene is going to happen, but I just realized that I don't know exactly what this character's motivation is for that part." And I get locked up and writer's block central. Nanowrimo is about telling that inner critic to shut up for a while so you can get the words down. In December, you go through and read it, and if there are inconsistencies like that, you can then iron them out and have all the time you need to think up why someone would do something like that. But in the meantime, Nano is there to motivate you to get it down.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

HaDavar — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 09:33:20 -0800

I agree with what some of the other posters have said: it's not a rule so much as it is a piece of advice for the more easily-discouraged among us. It's also not about low quality; it's about high quantity, regardless of quality. Personally, I almost never restructure a sentence once it's down on the page and is older than half a minute or so. The syntax, punctuation, and spelling is universally either correct the first time or intentionally rule-breaking. Of course, I'll later recognize contextual disjunctions between my sentences, which bear semantic editing. So do weak sentences or sections of my writing which could benefit from additional ideas, new inspiration, or the like. I have been known to return to a story many months later and overhaul it, but if any sentence takes me longer than five seconds to fix, I'm probably not editing it so much as scrapping it and starting over. All of this means that the time that I spend editing is short and front-loaded into my first draft, while the time that I spend properly rewriting is long and heavily weighted towards the end of the process. Hence, my NaNo doesn't suffer from edititis, though it's entirely possible I'll come back to it at the end of December and realize it was generally garbage. Syntactically, lexically perfect garbage. Most people have different writing styles, though, and one of the most disheartening feelings is that you'll never be able to move on until it's perfect, and it'll never be perfect because you don't know how to make it so. For people who suffer from this particular malady, a refusal to perform initial edits may work wonders. Once you know the whole story, you'll know which words to use, which rules to follow, and which rules to break. Don't sweat it at the outset.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Shannanigan — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 09:43:16 -0800

Nothing's wrong with what you're doing. If I did it, though, well...I'd wind up with yet another exposition for a novel sitting in my "Writing Projects" folder, feeling totally fed up with it and all the editing I'd done on it, never getting past character descriptions. This is the first time I've managed to get into the meat of a novel, and it's because I'm writing without looking back. It's working for me, even if it doesn't necessarily work for everyone.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

AlyRuth — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 09:53:34 -0800

I find it silly as well. I'm a college kid striving for medical school; I might as well have a 9-5 job. It's not that I have tons of time to do this, I just work hard about 2 hours out of the day, usually after nightfall when I should be sleeping. I edit. Most of my sentences are well-thought out and I even visit thesaurus.com occasionally. GASP! What am I doing?! My novel isn't a complete pile of crap! Oh... that's not a bad thing. If you absolutely are stressed for time and you're having trouble meeting your daily goals, only then should you adopt a rule so silly as "NO BCKSPC."

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

mhufstader — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 10:03:07 -0800

I think the great thing about nano is...it's not that hardass. There are many "rebels", and if you're someone that needs to spend more time editing than writing, go for it. Personally, I haven't been writing prose. In a long time. I stepped away from it to take a stab at screenwriting and got stuck there. Having the freedom to fully remember what it is about prose writing that made me fall in love with it the first place...the twists I didn't expect, the way my characters surprise me time and I again when I forget about editing and perfect sentences and just let them take the wheel and do the talking...that's what excites me about nano, and that's why I actually think writing low quality (or as I put it "my quest to write 50,000 words of crap"), has been a lifesaver to me. But that's just one success story--everyone just needs to write in a way they feel that'll benefit them most, even if that means putting themselves out of their comfort zones. Good luck!

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

C.J. Sandiego — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 10:15:56 -0800

I find that if I think about what I'm writing too hard, it'll stop flowing and then I'll just sit and stare at the white screen for the whole month. Now I've written tons of school papers I always had the same problem with drafts-- couldn't ever get the words out unless I was pressed up against the deadline and desperate. Things should come out perfect the first time, with little tweaking, or not at all. Not a good thing when a paper is due in about six hours because you're too scared that it'll be crap and you had a week's worth of anxiety to work on it. It wasn't that I didn't know what to write, it was how to write it. NaNoWriMo is the complete opposite of my academic experience. You have a tight deadline but no one is going to grade you on the final product(until you get a chance to edit it properly, that is). It's a release from all the times when you are forced to turn in a paper that you know could do better on because you just ran out of time. Not everybody does the novel-in-a-month thing because they want to be published or read or by their peers (even posthumously!). Sometimes it's just catharsis with a shiny certificate and a purple bar. If there was an official National Paint a Picture a Day Month, I would be doing that. It's just that writing is a little easier to keep track of progress on.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Debbi — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 10:24:28 -0800

Also it's about writing 50k words. My first nano I did 23k and that was the most I had ever written for one novel in my life. It was a major accmoplishment. I got bored with other novels and would start something new... or the excitment of starting a new idea made me want to start a new one. So I never got too far. When you've never written 23k or let alone 50k you need to give up on the high quality, second or thrid draft novel writing and just write. Finishing a novel my thrid year made me feel GREAT. And like others have said. I don't have a lot of time for writing. Then editing the same day. But that's me.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

IVIilitarus — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 10:26:14 -0800

Makes sense. Guess writing's just too modular for people to set down general rules.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

z_o_e — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 10:26:34 -0800

I edit as I go. I don't like to just write crap, so I end up deleting paragraphs, and rewriting them. I know it needs more editing at the end of the month, but I don't quit for the day if I'm not pleased with what I've written.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Odeena — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 10:37:43 -0800

I settled for a compromise: I do basic editing (spelling, grammar, sentence structure) as I go and I'll hack'n'slash with the red pen come December for the finer points... even though I'll probably stress over it a LOT in the meantime. My point is though, I'm well aware that what I'm writing is a first draft and it doesn't have to be good. Yet. But I will in no way settle for it as the final form.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Dretzle — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 10:43:49 -0800

Actually, I think this was my problem until now. I, too, was always an edit as I go kind of person. I write, rewrite, reword, as I went. If I had to make a major plot change I'd go back and rewrite what came before to make it fit. I only completed one novel over ten years ago. Usually I fizzle out partway through as I get bogged down in editing and lose the drive to finish the story. NaNoWriMo is helping me this year (first year here) as I adopt the mindset of just keep going. When I feel like deleting what I just wrote, I now resist. I keep going. I'm working on plot here, not tons of beautiful prose. I don't like everything I've written, though I don't hate everything, either. If I need to make a change earlier in the novel, I make a note to revise it later and keep writing "as if" I had already gone back and edited in the change. I'm at 21,000 words and going strong. I think a big thing here is don't waste your time. One author suggested not to even write subplots in the first time through as those tend to be the first thing to go in a rewrite. I'm not writing like that, but the point is not to waste your time getting perfect stuff you may just delete later anyways. I'm writing about 800 words an hour this way. If I slowed down and thought harder or rewrote as I went it'd probably be 400 words an hour or less, only to find out that I have to delete or rewrite scenes later anyways. Actually, writing this way this year is working out well for me. My next novel I was thinking of writing in a script form. Get out the dialogue and basic action information to get the plot out first. Then, when I have the plot right, go back and fill in the scenes. I think I'll work better that way. But that's why I'm doing it. Awesome if you have the time and energy to spend more time getting it better the first time around. It's your novel. :) Every way that gets you to 50k is right!

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Sprakit — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 10:44:10 -0800

[quote=IVIilitarus] I wouldn't be proud if I came out with a pile of trash that's very long. If I left all of the mistakes and bad sentences I wrote in, I'd probably be unable to read anything, much less edit it. [/quote] This is EXACTLY how I have been feeling the last couple of days. I find sitting down to write a chore because I'm behind, but I'm behind because I don't like how this process is going! This is my..gosh..third attempt at this, and I have never finished. Never even came close. And what you said: "I wouldn't be proud if I came out with a pile of trash that's very long," is why I have never finished this challenge. It is taking every fiber of my being to just put words on paper and let the rest go, simply because I want to finish...just to say that I have.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Patron1121 — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 10:47:20 -0800

Well, I have issues where I will just get so caught up in planning and making sure everything is perfect and researching that I end up not getting around to writing or I toss everything I wrote out because I didn't think it was good enough. .___.; NaNoWriMo pantsing is a blessing in disguise for me.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Sprakit — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 10:48:32 -0800

Another thought: Overall I think the "rule" of not editing during November should come with an astrisk. If it is common practice for you to edit as you go and you aren't cutting large portions (like thousands of words) at once, then I don't see the problem in it. Also, if it is common practice for you to edit as you go, you know your style and your taste, and thus you are less likely to actually take out the good stuff. Rather you're more likely to take out the frivilous fluff, and make your job easier come December :-)

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

phantressoftheopera — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 11:07:03 -0800

I don't think that editing is an issue - if you can stay ahead and edit at the same time. I myself don't edit much. If I make spelling or grammar errors, I don't leave them there, even if it costs me a word or two. And I admit, this year, starting without much of a plot, has seen me going back over and changing early details that changed over the course of the novel. But that is things like changing "seventeen" to "twenty one" when I realized later that my timeline was screwed up. I'll do my major edits in december. But if that is how you write, and you can stay ahead while doing it, I say good for you, keep it up :)

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

RobertLent — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 11:10:28 -0800

It is not really a rule, more of a recommendation. If you can edit as you go and still hit 50,000 by the end of the month, that's great. But there are an awful lot of people who will never get anywhere if they do that. The will be stuck at a couple thousand words, nitpicking every detail. It's not an emphasis on bad writing, it is an emphasis on writing. If you get to 50,000, you have a first draft. That's an accomplishment it itself. You can then have the option to edit to to make it better, or just put it aside and forget about it. But you have no novel at all unless you get a first draft.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

puigcaro — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 11:41:55 -0800

I do a little editing and even go back and add things I realize my plot needed to have and I missed. But I'm also slightly ahead on word count for the first time and that is because I decided to allow myself to just write. I always have the online dictionary tab open (and even the translator as I'm writing in my second language) and I've re-written sentences more than once. I really don't think you should see NaNo as being all about the bad quality writing, because that's not it at all. Nano doesn't say "Hey, go write some absolute garbage!" it just says "Hey, go write! Don't worry if it's not perfect, you can fix it later." There's a slight difference between the two.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

chinalizard — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 11:54:01 -0800

You must like writing a lot more than most. LOL!! The rule was probably made for those who aren't aspiring to be published authors, and who are just doing NaNo for fun and not for serious. Also, for folks who may not have as much time as others. Two people I know are both married, with their own, very young, kids. As in 0 to 4 years old. Add necessary jobs on top of that, and I can see how things could get strained. As it is...kudos to you! If it's something you're proud of that you feel is pretty good, perhaps you should try to get published!

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

idle-dream — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 12:07:19 -0800

I agree with you. This is my first year doing NaNo, and it's been a huge help for me. Before doing NaNo, I'd become crippled easily in the first few chapters of a story and start editing and changing things. This often led to me not getting anywhere with the story and abandoning it completely. Doing NaNo, I just churn the words out, knowing that I have to get them out, and that I can edit later. I hope I can stay in this mindset long after NaNo has finished!

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

CyraEm — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 12:25:26 -0800

Because for a lot of people if we edit-as-we-go, we end up circling the drain and stagnating, never moving any farther than the first chapter. We aren't happy with it so we edit, and edit, and edit, and eventually we're not improving it we're just nitpicking. It's really useful to say "You know what, I'm not allowed to edit until the story is complete." That's the point of NaNoWriMo, to force you to finish instead of just starting and abandoning projects forever.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Scott Gardener — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 12:31:18 -0800

If you are a skilled enough writer to get both the word count and have time for editing, then more power to you, and absolutely go back and edit. The advice against editing is intended for those of us who are struggling just to get finished, whom I suspect are a majority. There is no strict rule against editing and producing better material. It's just advice for most of us who need to keep moving just to get to the finish line. If you're already accustomed to writing at this pace, then it may be that taking it to the next level, producing a better grade manuscript in thirty days, as opposed to our crude drafts, may be a goal more in keeping with the spirit of Nanowrimo for you.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

sextant — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 12:34:01 -0800

Personally, I have a 9-5 (which is more like 8 -6 for most people) and two young children. I have a total of about three hours a day that are not occupied with other responsibility. I also have other things to get done (cleaning, shopping, exercising, cooking . . . ). I can use all my time to write and edit, thus hating this experience and risk not finishing, or I can do something rough and dirty. I opt for the latter. Also, I know that my process only starts moving once I have a completed draft. If you front load your editing, good for you. Neither approach guarantees high quality.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

kfrncs — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 12:45:00 -0800

I'm at 10k and I'd be finding it hard to write at the rate I am with strict quality control. I think NaNoWriMo is more about getting it done than anything else. If you're really strict about writing well, a lot of people will give up or be too hard on themselves. I've been sprinting in 15 minute chunks and taking breaks. I average about 600 words in a 15-minute sprint, but it's so hard for me to find the time to write 2000 words a day. It requires me completely cutting out either social interaction, housework or schoolwork. For the past couple of days it's been social interaction that's gone. It's challenging, and if you were asking for a perfect novel on my first run through I probably wouldn't be here. I'm expecting to just dig into my subconscious to figure out where these characters and this world could go, then do a complete re-write, keeping chunks.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

JesilynSmith — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 12:52:18 -0800

If I edited out everything I thought was "crap" I'd have about 1.5k words right now. But I"m pleased with the idea of the rest of my story as it's playing out, just not so much how it's worded. If I were to stop and work on each section until it was perfect, I'd lose sight of the overall story. For me, it's about getting the story out. I can struggle over picking better adjectives so I don't use so darn many adverbs later. Likewise, I let the bad similes stay because it takes too long to think of a better one when I could advance my plot by a few more paragraphs instead. Even so, I do edit. I see no point in letting typos stay. If I know I made one, I backspace right over that little sucker and fix it. My own personal rule is: if the sentence isn't done, it's fair game for rewording. If it is done, typo fixing only is allowed. No rewording for me once that period is on the end.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Elluna Hellen — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 12:52:48 -0800

I think you can edit your spelling mistakes, but just not rereading and editing anything you consider crap. I guess. I can't stop myself from changing spelling mistakes either xD.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Cynthus — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 12:52:52 -0800

You know, I used to be a perfectionist and then I got ill. Everything I wrote from that point when I was on high dosages of chemo and prednisone seemed like crap. Nothing I wrote then, seemed good enough until my dosages were tweaked downwards. And then I found out an amazing thing. Even thought the grammar and some of the spelling was not good (I couldn't remember how to spell from the chemo), the stories were really good. Chemo actually bypassed my editor and I was writing from another place. That is what Nanowrimo does for me. It bypasses my critical voice (actually my mother who says I am not good at anything creative) and gives me a gift. --an interesting story.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Fireazure — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 12:58:36 -0800

I'm in Floit63's camp. This is my first NaNo, and while I think that what I'm writing is mostly crap, I'm really proud of myself for sticking with it and writing so much. I'm very critical, and to be able to let loose and write fluidly without stopping has been absolutely liberating. But, I only have about 1.5 hours per day to work on it, so it will all remain as-is until December. It really has been an amazing experience so far. So great to turn off that inner critic!!

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Miss Tips — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 12:59:45 -0800

Because not everyone does things the same way? You're perfectly within your right to write like that, and others are within theirs to write without editing as they go.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Quote_the_Crow — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 13:18:39 -0800

I'm just curious to know why the title of this thread somehow reflects that "unedited" is in the same boat as "low quality." I don't feel at all like what I'm writing is "low quality." I'm extremely pleased with the outcome thus far, both in word count and in "correctness." I think the reason to not edit while you go is that there are so many ways a story *could* go, I think you should be open to seeing which storyline is the one that ultimately comes through for you. If you're editing at this point, it seems to me that maybe you're trying to shape the story, which is fine for an everyday author, but NaNo isn't supposed to be an "everyday author" type of thing. Editing as I go would take the fun and ferocity out of it. I never imagined the things that are taking place in my story right now. Are they going to make the final cut? Maybe, maybe not, but if I cut them out now, I wouldn't possibly build on them later, and then they definitely wouldn't be there at the end. I'd rather leave everything for now, rough and ugly, because I think I'll appreciate it more when all is said and done. Just my two cents.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

xemmawhyx — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 13:19:38 -0800

I'm at 25k and no the writing quality is not up to my usual standard, BUT I have come up with sub-plots and little red herring plot directions that I think will make the story more interesting to readers which I wouldn't have without the pressure of word wars and limits. Therefore, I can edit later - but I have a plot and characters I care about, ready for when December comes. :)

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Clevernamepending — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 13:26:14 -0800

For some of us the problem comes with we write five pages, get frustrated, throw the whole thing out, and start over. We do this repeatedly. In my case, as NaNoWriMo has been showing me, the stuff I write isn't that bad, I just need some space. It's about going full steam ahead, and finishing a rough draft. I've lopped a few pages off here and there and taken a knife to the occasional sentence, but only when I know what I want to replace it with, not just because I dislike it. I'd have thrown out almost my entire novel so far if I let myself edit as I went. It's about creating a workable rough draft, and for writers who have a hard time just, you know, going, maybe try a different writing process. Some people are great at editing as they go, apparently you're one of them, but know you my dear are a rare case.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

hlynn — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 13:34:30 -0800

I'm in the same situation as the original poster. I lagged a bit at the beginning, but banged out about 5000k after three hours on Saturday. I've edited, deleted, and rewritten parts of my initial 10000k when I start down to write. That's how I get into my story, but editing my previous work. The majority of good writing comes in the editing. Also, as someone who took graduate level rhetoric, I think every word is precious, and I don't squander words. Why take 1000 words to say something when you can use 500? It's also worth the time to think of the right phrasing, the appropriate word. I don't add elements (plot, character, description) that don't feel like they belong in my story just to make word count. I understand the time crunch, but I also want a draft I can really use to edit to a final version after NaNo. Basically, I need a deadline to get my ass moving because I have so much going on in my life. I also know I will have time to fill in some of the 'blank' spots in my story, but I'm trying not to get hung up on that right now.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

originalgradk — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 13:36:21 -0800

I agree, I think the Nano Model if you can call it that is well overdue for revision. For instance 50k novellas based on the decent novels by Orwell et all, OR proper Novel lengths of 100,000+ (which for the first time I am aiming for!!). I think that the emphasis on using fluff to expand texts is bad methodology. It is almost page filling rather than Novel Writing. I am participating, for the years I have not, the reason being is I think Nano encourages bad practice in writing. hence my theory that the Model should be revised-as a matter of urgency and be replaced by a lot more sane rational yet accomodating model to make room for the would be Literary Talent that lies in all of us.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

originalgradk — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 13:37:47 -0800

[quote=Luna54] I'm finding the NaNo way of writing really hard. I used to work as a sub-editor and I find it so difficult not to edit as I go. As I'm only on 7,400 words though I've got to change my ways otherwise I'll never do it. It'll look strange as I've got 28 pages of correct spelling and grammar and all of a sudden it's going to go to pot! [/quote] I would just BE YOURSELF!!! it is your handiworks not Nanowrimos, interpret it as you see fit it is First Draft time after all (says she who is struggling with it but determined to do it). Your work is too important to sacrifice to an unworthy model.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

therekinator — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 13:45:37 -0800

A lot of people don't have time to edit as they write, or if they tried to they wouldn't get anywhere. I know that although I should have the time to write and edit each day, the fact I don't have anything on means I constantly procrastinate. In the end it means I can't edit as I go along because despite all my best intentions to start writing early every day I always start writing so late I just about have enough time to get my words in each day. I also know that when it comes to editing I need time to distance myself from my writing. For example, a couple of years ago I started writing something that I abandoned because I thought it was awful and not worth even editing. About six months ago I discovered it again, and found it was actually pretty good. It needed a bit of editing, and the time away from it let me see it wasn't anywhere near as bad as I thought it was. If I'd actually edited as I went along then it would never have been finished and I would have lost a lot of the things I now like about it.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

LuLiLa — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 13:56:36 -0800

That sounds fine with me though I certainly do not have the type of time to go back and edit my work. I already have 3-4 hours of homework a night, sometimes more which makes it very difficult to reach my writing goals and do everything else I need to do before the day is over. I have never deleted a sentence I wrote in a story, not sure why though but it just seems like such a waste to delete a sentence, I let the story take me where the story takes me and do not back out on my choices. I do often edit sentences but never delete them (I delete sentences in essays often but not my stories). I think through each sentence before I write it and I make sure that I NEVER have any spelling mistakes in my novel because those annoy me greatly. The only grammatical problems with mine are probably that it has too few paragraph breaks and maybe some run on sentences. I often do repeat things a lot in my writing and notice this only when rereading it, unfortunately with the amount of schoolwork I have at the moment I do not feel I have the time to go back and reread everything I've written. I think the emphasis on low quality is just so people don't feel pressured and if they feel theirs is bad they always have the excuse that it is just a very rough draft.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

LilaEvansfieldPetuniaSt.Charlesthe8th — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 13:59:08 -0800

I edit as I go, I don't have to have it just perfect but it has to at least be reasonable. Going back without deleting a single sentence? Yeah, that's next to impossible for me. I suppose I could write quicker if I ditched editing all together but I'm keeping up with word count easy enough and I think I'd have more trouble if I didn't work out my words before moving on.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

thatollie — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 14:00:06 -0800

I am not editing as I go, but I'm not writing bad fiction either. Whenever I write a story, whether I've edited during the writing process or not, I have to revise it multiple times anyway. They aren't emphasizing writing bad fiction, they are recommending that you leave editing to its proper place in the writing process.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Debbi — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 14:21:34 -0800

No I don't think the rule as made for those who aren't aspiring to get published. Disagree completely. First drafts, which is what Nano is all about, is never perfect. The only way the novel you write in November is perfect for publication is if you have hours to rewrite like the OP. NaNo was not to get published in December or even January. Maybe one day. Maybe not. Just because someone write 50k in a month doesn't mean it can't be rewritten and published. Others do NaNo for other reason. Fun. To write a 50k novel in amonth. To write a novel at all. Or whatever reason they want to do it.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Cherriey — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 14:26:22 -0800

I can't say that I never backspace or correct errors but I also do not go back over everything this first time around unless it is to clarify which character name went with who. I do have trouble with self editing as I go and I end up just dropping off because it takes too long and I have no clear idea of where I am going with it and I feel that I should if I am going to write anything at all. I feel that my writing (once the first draft is done) should have at least a month of cool down time before I come back to look at it with fresh eyes and begin the editing process. Nanowrimo helps me push through that painful first draft, and that is why I do it. =0)

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Generalist — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 15:11:04 -0800

Is it an emphasis on low quality or an emphasis on getting the ideas down do that you have something to edit? I hand write and do a certain amount of editing as the words go from mind to paper. The sentences and paragraphs are readable on a sentence by sentence and paragraph by paragraph basis. They are not highly polished, but they read well. I'm not trying for perfection at this level. When I transcribe, I make minor corrections and additions, but I do not go back and rewrite. I KNOW that if I rewrite to fit an evolving story, I'll have to rewrite it again as the story evolves further. It is much more effective to wait until the story is done and tweak the results. Odds are there are sections that would be rewritten dozens of times if I did it on the fly. It does take a certain amount of compromise with the Inner Editor. But I've worked out that compromise. There are others, however, that haven't come to a compromise with their Inner Editors. They have to ignore the Inner Editor in order to get the ideas down, otherwise they are unlikely to get past the first sentence, much less the first 5K words in a month. They have to have 'permission' to write 'crap' in order to get past the Inner Editor and get the words down for the first draft. If you want a non NaNoWriMo reference for this, check out Julia Cameron's "The Artists Way." It is a very well known book, published in 1992. Towards the end of one of the chapters is a suggestion for a sign that recovering creatives, including writers, should have. The sign would say “Great Creator, I will take care of the quantity. You take care of the quality.”

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Generalist — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 15:30:11 -0800

Define what you think the NaNo Model is and what aspects would you change? I suspect that some of the fluff you are talking about are the word padding things that people do to get their word count up to the 50K goal. Another part may be the permission to 'write crap' in the process of getting a completed first draft in thirty days. Then there is the 50K goal, which is fine for a novella, but way to short for standard novels. Well I figure that you have to start somewhere. If you are a complete novice, just getting to 50K could be a big challenge. If you have written for a number of years, getting to 50K in thirty days could be a big challenge. If you are a perfectionist, 5K in less than a decade could be a challenge. NaNoWriMo offers a chance to overcome those challenges in a group environment, with lots of people willing to help you overcome the challenges. I know it has helped me do more writing in the last year and a half than I did in several decades. It has also helped me overcome certain tendencies to write the 'fun' parts of a story and skip things like the beginning and end. Perhaps NaNoWriMo could be where people start to develop the Literary Talent that lies in all of us, getting to the point they they feel good about what they do. Then they could go to the graduate course on more effective ways to work. (Or suggestions on the "lot more sane, rational yet accommodating model' you speak about.)

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Generalist — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 15:36:20 -0800

I edit as the words go from mind to paper, but then I hand write. What I put down on paper is reasonably readable on a sentence by sentence and paragraph by paragraph basis. It isn't perfect but I have too many ideas that need to be put on paper before I go back and try for perfection. At the same time, when I find discrepancies in what I've written because the story evolves, I do NOT go back and rewrite. Odds are, additional story evolution would force me to rewrite the rewritten rewrites repeatedly. You have to come to a balance with your Inner Editor. Mine makes sure that the initial words are readable, but knows that corrections will need to be made once the first draft is done. My Inner Editor deals with that because, once the first draft is done, EVERYTHING that has been written can be edited.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Generalist — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 15:40:35 -0800

PS My word count, hand writing, is in the 21K realm after eight days. I marked the ink cartridge of the pen I'm using and have managed to consume a little over three inches of ink in three and a half days. I would have consumed more if I had focused on my writing a bit more during the weekend.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Generalist — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 15:46:44 -0800

This is the key here. Or one of the keys. During the kickoff meeting for our local NaNoWriMo group, the leaders handed out containers of Play-Doh and had people create icons of their Inner Editors. They then had people describe their icon and how they planned on keeping their Inner Editor under control. I did a bit of Play-Doh decoration but kept it in the container. My explanation was that I had my Inner Editor trained to do a certain amount of editing as long as the word flow wasn't stopped. When asked how I did it, I mentioned 'experience' and training in things like brainstorming and the design spiral.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Eynara — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 15:59:25 -0800

I find most editing while writing the first/rough draft a waste of time since I am going to have to reedit it again before the novel is ready for submission anyway. Quality comes differently for every person. Whether I write 5 words or 250,005 words before editing begins doesn't say what quality a story will be in its final draft. I have a friend who writes the most brilliant and wonderful novels when she does it NaNo style, but when she tries to take the time to do it "right" the first time, her story is boring and her characters are flat. Do the NaNo style novels need editing? You bet, but she gets herself fantastic bones to work with. The "doing it right" novels usually can't be saved until she gives in and NaNos it. The editing still happens, its just a matter of how a person's creative process works best for them.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

moonmomma — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 16:31:05 -0800

I love to edit -- when I have a complete first draft. That's when I can take the story as a whole, see what I have, see if all the scenes fit together and are in the right place and if there are scenes that shouldn't be there or scenes I need to write, if the characters do what they're supposed to do, if the plot as a whole makes sense. Then I cut and paste and delete and write whole new scenes and work on my characters to figure out what's really going on and fix my plot holes and make sure everything makes sense. You just can't do any of that with anything less than a complete first draft. When all the cutting and adding and moving around and re-conceptualizing and stuff is done, that's when it makes sense to start fixing sentences and description and stuff. To me, it's just a waste of time to worry about that stuff if I don't even know if that scene or paragraph is going to make it into the final version of the book. As I write my first draft, I do things like correct typos as I type, go back and add things that I think of (for example, a while after I wrote a scene in my NaNo novel, I decided the character should still be in a wheelchair this soon after her accident, so I went back and stuck in a few sentences to that effect. and then I moved on.) Otherwise, I don't edit until I have a completed draft. And ever since I learned to write without going back over and over to edit, I complete my drafts. My dad has written the first chapter of a science fiction novel. He's edited and rewritten and polished it, and it's a fantastic first chapter. But that's all it is, is a first chapter, and I'm afraid that's all it will ever be.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

franthephoenix — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 16:36:35 -0800

I don't think anyone's seriously saying we should write to a poor standard, rather that we should be wary of expecting perfection from a hurriedly written first draft. During NaNo I do not go over each paragraph and try to improve it. Why? Because I'm not done yet. Until I have the first draft completed, and enough time has passed that I can look at it with fresh eyes, I won't *know* how to polish it to perfection. To me, there's no point rewriting a scene that might not even make the final draft. In order to edit effectively I need to know the story, and the tone, and whether or not a particular character is interesting as a whole. Only when I'm happy with the story will I begin the rewrite. This is not to say that editing is useless, or that it's okay to knowingly write something bad. I wouldn't even get to the second draft if I didn't put effort into what I was writing first time round. So yeah, I use a thesaurus, and I try and think of witty one-liners and interesting metaphors. Essentially I'm trying to make my story interesting enough to me that I'll actually want to improve it and have fun doing so.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

ShatteredMugen63 — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 17:52:26 -0800

I don't see it so much as an emphasis on low quality, but more as continual reassurance that it's okay not to be perfect. For me, NaNo isn't a time for serious writing. I do it because I choose to, because I want to challenge myself to write as much as I possibly can in one month around all of my other commitments. I don't think it's wrong to write 50,000 words of low quality work if you're okay with doing that. In the same sense, I think it's fine if you prefer to edit as you go. That's just not what I focus on during NaNoWriMo. However, outside of November, I write at a more leisurely pace. There's a certain amount of pressure to finish the 50k for me, but I don't fret if my writing isn't up to my usual standards. This is really the one time I feel okay writing just for the sake of writing, and I still feel like I've improved at the end. By making so many mistakes during NaNo, I recognize those mistakes by way of repetition and fix them in hopes of making better novel attempts in the future. I don't think there's any right or wrong way to do NaNo as long as you have a good time with it. Whatever helps you enjoy the process to its fullest is the way you should go. I don't think people who write crap during NaNo necessarily have lower standards for writing, nor do I think those who edit necessarily have higher standards. I also don't think that if someone doesn't edit during NaNo that they won't edit at all. One can never tell, being unable to see into another's mind. But I really don't feel like low quality is encouraged so much as it's accepted. It's just to say that getting your ideas down one way or another is more important than eloquent prose. There's also a fair amount of encouragement to make this first draft better once the month is over. Of course each aspect is important, but it's up to the author to decide when, how, and if he or she wants to edit.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Rebecca K — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 18:26:52 -0800

Eleven months out of the year, I edit as I go. I make sure my paragraphs are sound, and my words flow together with ease and eloquence. One month out of the year, I free myself and give myself permission to create as much garbage as I want. Some of my all time favorite plot twists and characters have come about in desperation to get in 1000 words before the end of a 45 minute discussion (not that I condone nanoing during class... heh...). Once, at the very end of a word war, I typed something about in a baby hidden in the woods. Over time, the baby develops into one of the most pivotal secondary characters to the story, and one of my favorite people to write. In revision, I can cut out whatever dead-ends I lost track of, or dream-sequences that make no sense. However, I could never write in a character I failed to create due to meticulous editing and paragraph structure. For me, NaNo is the exception, not the norm, and it gives me a greater appreciation and understanding of my writing process.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Ellen.Mirch — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 18:43:44 -0800

The only editing I do, for the entire month of November, is to do things like making sure my spelling is correct, that I didn't drop any words out of sentences, and to add a few words or sentences here and there to clarify something or make it read smoothly. I write every day for the month, and then-- at the beginning of December-- I don't look at it again for another month. Then, and only then, do I go back to it to edit-- because I can look at it in a fresh way, instead of 'asdsfsfsf if I delete this my word count goes down'. The point of NaNo is, for me and probably a lot of other people, to get the words out there in the first place. There's plenty of time for all the people who can't pull 2000 or more words out in a single day, edit them, and still have 2000 words or more after doing those things, to edit later.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

whoiscraig — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 18:45:43 -0800

I think what works for some people is not going to work for everyone. The important thing about writing in general is that everyone has to find their own method. To the original poster, perhaps editing as you go works for you, but if I did that I would never write anything new. I know myself, and I would be revising the same paragraph forever without writing anything new, so I HAVE to stop myself from editing while I write the first draft, just so i can actually finish it. Then at the end, I go back and edit. it's not about having a perfect novel at the end of November, for me this is about having a first draft at the end of November, emphasis on the word draft. Then I plan to spend December editing it into something readable.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

AlyRuth — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 19:35:58 -0800

WE'VE GOT LEVEL 2 INTERNET MAD. EVACUATE!

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

poi_son_joy — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 19:38:35 -0800

If I try to edit as I go, or keep going back to edit what I just wrote, I get discouraged and give up. That's it. It's not a matter of time for me; I have pretty much all day to write, but the NaNo "method" as some people are calling it helps me actually get words OUT. Sometimes those are crap words that I know I'm going to cut, but that's okay, because the whole point of them is to get me from the last scene I wrote to the next scene that works. If I worry too much about what I just wrote, or what I'm going to write next, I stop writing. I can edit crap. In fact, writing crap and figuring out what's crap about it shows me exactly what I'll need to fix later. Is this part awful? Take it out, but what would work better there? It's easier to figure out what would make for a better Scene B when Scene A and Scene C are already written -- or at least it is for me. Did I just get three chapters in and realize I really need to pad certain things, need to add in scenes that show more about the characters and their relationships with each other, need to stretch certain other things out and not reveal quite as much as I already have quite so early? Yep, I sure did, but again, getting out those three chapters showed me what those three chapters really needed. I can flesh things out at the end of the month, or on a re-write. Fixing things HAS to wait for me, because otherwise I wind up with nothing to fix. Even 50,000 words that contain 10,000 words of crap can lead to a much better re-write that ends up being 60,000+ words. You definitely need to find your own method. But the thing is, emphasizing that a low quality first draft is OKAY is a very good method for quite a few people. Being encouraged to write this way is freeing for me, because it's forcing me to remind myself that I can edit a crap first draft later -- I can't edit something that doesn't exist. I can't edit a blank page. So I just write for now; I'll worry about making it GOOD after the month's over. And I have over 9000 words now. ;) Yes, I'm running behind, but this is more than I've written in about six years. This method really IS getting me over my writer's block. It's got me writing, and I'm hoping it will get me a story, as imperfect and in need of fixing up as that story may be.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

mscadaverous — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 20:32:43 -0800

In the past, I've tried that road of editing-as-I-go every single time I've attempted to write a story. All of these attempts have failed me so far. It's because of my strong desire to make every detail perfect. My story lines are usually quite convoluted and require very subtle details in order to be executed in a way that doesn't sound completely ridiculous. Because of that, I tend to focus on details that are completely extraneous, but at the time I thought that they'd be relevant. As I slaved more and more over them, they slowly became worse and worse. I've found nanowrimo to be extremely helpful in this endeavor. It's not that I don't have time to edit, rather it's because I just shouldn't be. I have a definitive outline and direction, so I simply write whatever comes to mind in order to achieve those plot points. So far it's worked out quite well. Now, I don't necessarily agree on adding details about ninjas and funny habits. Those are always fun, but in the end they're going to be deleted anyway. So I don't really see a point to adding points that are moot in the end.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Ecchymoticism — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 20:46:41 -0800

Oh you just made my day.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Ecchymoticism — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 20:53:54 -0800

Do you realize what I would do if I edited as I went? I would end up in the fetal position, sobbing violently and ripping out my hair to Death Cab for Cutie songs. I'm doing 2K a day as well, so I have a healthy padding, and I'm ahead of schedule. I change my mind as I write, but I leave it all there, because that is the spirit of NaNoWriMo. Creating without destroying. Also, I find my perspective on my novel is drastically different from letting it sit for a month or so. In Stephen King's book, On Writing, he talks about how he leaves his novel to sit in a desk for at least a month before he even touches it, which I think is a fantastic idea. I tried to do that with my last NaNo novel, but I lost the flash drive for it before the month was up. [4-way back-up plan for the win, children.] I would love to edit as I go, end NaNoWriMo with a novel worth actually seriously considering sending off to the editors, however, I have limited time on my hands and I am the tortoise of writers. Most of my writing is spent staring at the ceiling, hands playing on the keys, then 'Ah!' and typing about 400-500 words before rinsing/repeating. We writers are a floozy bunch, so NaNoWriMo is relaxed for a purpose. I'd be pretty upset if it wasn't. It's about just getting it out, just doing it. I think that's what it should be about.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

vollmond — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 21:10:51 -0800

re: your friend: very cool. I relate, I've found to my astonishment this november that I write MUCH BETTER under completely unreasonable writeordie demands than if I'm just sitting here. ??

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Dani Marchand — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 21:40:32 -0800

It seems like a few people think "don't edit" is code for "keyboard mash until plot happens". I don't think that's the case for anyone. We all try to put together coherent sentences. I don't think many NaNo novels out there are unreadable. To me, the idea of not editing revolves more around not deleting whole scenes, not dwelling over plot holes, and skipping ahead if you run into a rough patch that runs the risk of halting your progress. We all have different schedules, different attention spans, different levels of interest, experience, and ability. Editing works for some and not others. I edit, to an extent. I don't have any more typos or awkward sentences than I would in a novel written at a slower pace. I do have some minor issues that will require a further edit, such as a horse switching gender in a scene where I was on a roll and didn't want to ruin my momentum by spending fifteen minutes hunting for and changing pronouns. I would never show it to an editor, but I would show it to a friend anytime. And you know what? Sometimes it can be fun and really helpful to pound out a few words or sentences that don't fit in with the rest of the piece just to get your thoughts out and keep working your brain before the right words come to you. 100 words of nonsense doesn't detract from the big, coherent work of fiction it helped push you through, and it will come out on the first editing pass.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

lifelessmind — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 21:52:10 -0800

I'd rather cut down the whole damn plant and separate the wheat from the chaff later. But that's me. If you don't want to work like that, don't. It's not like editing as you go gets you disqualified.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

stovercash — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 22:42:51 -0800

Not editing != low quality (that is programmer speak for "not editing does not equal low quality" You are implying that everything that is not edited is inherently bad. In my naive opinion most everything in a first draft is subpar, but there are varying levels of quality. NaNoWriMo is a month for writing, January - October is for editing. By that theory, NaNo values editing 11 times more than writing, which sounds about right. I think that this process is just a writing exercise, take it or leave it. The exercise is to separate the job (chore?) of writing a book into more manageable components. So for November, we have permission to just get all the words out, reflect, feel good about ourselves, then spend 11 months deleting, adding, and reordering. If you edit too much as you go, you could be obsessing about a few words that don't really matter. My suggestion: if you really have enough time to write 2,000 words, then edit 2,000 words, why don't you just write the same section twice? It counts as 4,000 words, but in the end you get 2 times the content. Maybe 2 perspectives, 2 ways of describing a situation, 2 outcomes? In the end you can pick your favorites of the 2. Editing is an obsessive compulsive disorder. NaNoWriMo is a free spirit expulsion. Enjoy each process separately.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

withoutwax411 — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 22:46:46 -0800

It is not an emphasis on low quality. It is an emphasis on higher quantity. I can only speak from my experience as a fledgling writer, who has been a fledgling for some 20 years, but the idea of getting a completed first draft is an excellent notion. And it is one that I have struggled with for a very long time. When I edit as I go, I seldom move beyond the fourth or fifth chapter. I am too busy fixing everything so that it works perfectly with whatever I just thought of.... NaNo frees me to just leave that and keep moving. And I still have not finished a 50k word novel, but I will keep trying. That said, I fix typos, spelling and grammar as I go. What I finish in November is worth reading in December.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

jodicompton — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 23:08:53 -0800

I'm in this camp too. To each their own technique, but I find that if I really dislike what I wrote earlier, it creates drag on future progress -- like a headwind. Fixing or scrapping weak material is energizing and I move ahead faster after that.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Ginger11 — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 23:22:20 -0800

For me, if I go through and rewrite large sections of the story before I reach the end, I'll never reach the end. Been there done that dozens of times. This time, I am slogging through all the "bad" writing in an effort to get down all the thoughts, feelings, and actions of the characters. It's like the skeleton of the story. To be built upon later. I keep copious notes and brainstorming sessions as I go along to keep myself organized, and makes notes of "mistakes" like POV shifts and plot holes as I go along to make the editing process easier. It's an attitude change I needed to make. And so far, so good. I'm almost at 15k. I've been keeping up or slightly ahead of the daily word counts. I like my characters, although they need tweaking, and the plot is moving along at a good pace. I've got an outline, which I am following pretty well. I have a lot of room to add little plot twists and give my characters crazy quirks if need be. I've felt in previous years that nano was a pointless pursuit because of all the bad writing. I'm not viewing it as bad writing, but as a start. A jumping off point to something better.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

ctanner1966 — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 23:41:05 -0800

I completely agree, if it wasn't for the simple words that I've written on a piece a paper to the side, I wouldn't have gotten to as far as I have so far. Currently a bit over half way, but it was all thanks to a lot of writing on paper, and looking back and going from one or two words to continue the overall story.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

beautifulidiotmusic — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 00:00:24 -0800

I don't think anyone would say there's something "wrong" with editing as you go, if that's not a problem for you. Personally, I find it useful to stop editing/critiquing as much as possible so that I can get the words down. It would be nigh impossible for me to work like you are able to. Maybe some other year, when I am less stressed or more practiced, but for now I'm happy that I've found a tool that let me write 16000 words in the last week. And I just might finish a whole draft of a novel by the end of the month. Never did that before. :)

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

CaffeinatedTarantula — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 00:25:27 -0800

I don't edit my noevl as I go, but I am certain to write something I know I'll like when I read it through, something sincere. For example, why would I write 1,000 words about something I am bored of and cringing at the whole way through just for the sake of 1,000 words to put into my word counter and go "OOH! Look at my stats!". Instead, I take a shower, or a nap, and I think about it, and I think about where I actually want to go, so that when I write my next 1,000 words, I ENJOY writing it, I like the direction it's going, and I know when I read it in December I won't think "God, I wish I didn't write this just to boost my stats that one day."

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

DarknessRekindled — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 00:52:49 -0800

I don't think anything in the Nanowrimo rules emphasize low quality, it really comes down to a matter of efficiency. The first few times I did Nano, I would edit for about an hour for every for or five hours of writing. When I finally got done, I went back to edit my novel in December, and spent about a week of editing a few hours every day before I felt it was polished enough to send off to my first level editor for a more thorough revision. Last year, I forced myself to spend that extra hour of editing writing. As a result, my daily word count was much higher on average, but at the end of the month my novel had many more grammar and spelling mistakes than previous years. So again, I went back to my novel in December, spent about a week going through and doing serious edits, and then sent it off to my editor. If you were paying attention, you'll realize that I spent the same amount of time editing post-completion in both situations. I discovered that the majority of the time I had spent editing had been taken up by fixing mistakes and rewriting bad sentences or paragraphs. In the end, the majority of this can be accomplished by a spell check and one close read through of the novel in December. So, in the end, I spent about 40 hours editing my novel the first few years when I could have gotten the same result by editing for about 20 hours after Nanowrimo was finished in December. Another point I want to stress is that being an author and being an editor are completely different roles in the novel creation process. Yes, as authors we have the task of creating our perfect story and we guard that right jealously, but anyone who has tried to publish a novel will tell you that as soon as that novel gets read by a editor working for a publishing company, they are going to tear your precious creation apart in ways you never expected because that's their job. If we spend all our time worrying about the fact that our novels have achieved the peak of perfection while we are writing, the writing process becomes extremely inefficient and may actually change the direction your story goes in the future. Instead, Nanowrimo helps to teach you to write your novel first, then spend the time worrying about editing when you can take off our author's hat, replace it with an editing visor, and truly rip your story to pieces. Basically, to boil down my main points, a novel which has had continual edits throughout the month will be no closer to being a finished product at the end of November than a novel which not seen the touch of an editor's pen. Both will need many edits and revisions before they can be considered complete works ready to be published. So, in the long run, is it worth editing that novel over and over in November, or is it better to push through the writing portion and begin the arduous and much longer process of professional editing as quickly as possible? In my opinion, the second option seems much more sensible, but to each their own.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

edonil2 — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 01:02:52 -0800

I think there's benefit to both sides. Personally, I edit as I go, but I also know plenty of people who wouldn't get anything accomplished if they were to try it my way. People do things differently, based on training or personality. There's nothing at all wrong with this fact, it's part of what makes writing such an interesting process. Actually, the biggest issue I have with this topic is the two poles of the debate. Guess what? What works for you doesn't work for everyone. What doesn't work for you may be brilliant for other people. Let them create their art using what makes them comfortable. If you think that not editing as you go is silly, then feel free to edit. If you know you'll be paralyzed by attempting that very same thing, then feel free not to do it. My biggest frustration that I've had is that, being a person who does edit as they go, I've gotten some people almost yelling at me to stop editing and keep writing. Which is far from helpful, and has me ready to just stop the conversation. This is supposed to be a 'give yourself permission to write crap if you must' not a 'YOU MUST DO IT THIS WAY.' It's my craft, my art, my method of expressing myself. Let me do it.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Anke — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 01:20:08 -0800

Please don't forget that a lot of people are not here to get published, but to have have fun. If you have more ambitious goals than, for example, "I want to write a book-length story, rather than something shorter than 1000 words", good for you, but throwing out a lot of participants because they are "not serious enough" or something like that seems against the spirit of NaNo to me.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Lurv — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 05:36:18 -0800

I think if you really want to edit, then go for it. Of course it feels more satisfying to write well. However, I also think it's good to get used to just writing badly too. You won't be a genious if you worry too much about being a fool. I'm the kind of person who often ends up doing nothing because I feel like whatever I do will never be good enough, so for me, the "quality is not important" attitude during NaNo is very helpful. If you don't have that problem though, I guess editing won't hurt as long as you have the time for it.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

artzydancer234 — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 05:51:57 -0800

I do some minor editing, mostly spelling and capitalization, but beside that I try not to edit at all. I figure I'll go back after I've finished and just go through the whole thing again. What help me too is that I plan what I'm going to write the next day before I go to bed. It helps me type it out and I do a lot of editing in my head instead of on the computer when I'm typing.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

riddikulus-grin — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 06:17:49 -0800

If it's bad, you can change it. It doesn't seem to me that editing as you go along will anyway improve your result in comparasion with editing at the end. In fact, even if you edit as you go along, you still end up editing at the end, because nothing is going to be perfectly written until you're novel is finished. What if you change your mind, or come up with something new? You have to change that scene that contradicts your new idea even if it's perfectly edited and written just how you want it.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Pandora11 — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 06:51:52 -0800

I think you're right about changes.I think maybe there should be two competitions, this one and one for people who need a little more or feel some of the allowances are, in a way cheating. I take writing very seriously and one day hope to be a published author but i find fitting writing into my day isn't alway possble. Then, there's the problem of being too scared to make the mark on the page incase it's a load of rubbish. I think if this was changed, many people would be put off. I don't believe in all these tips/tricks and padding to make the word count but i do think being 'allowed' to just write knowing it doesn't have to be good, makes it so much easier. Although, i haven't caught up to the deadline, i'm finding this method so much easier and more importantly... fun after the stress, frustration and lack of sleep that comes with editing countless drafts of the novel i've been working on for the past 18months. NANO has reminded me why i want to be an author. It's about the love of writing and the need for telling a story. If people want to fill their 50k with crap, let them, at the end of the day i wouldn't feel honest telling people i'd completed the challenge knowing it was just about filling tthe word quota, we all could type up 50k of babble. However, some people who do this may come out of it wanting to take writing more seriously and gained/learned something from the experience, i certainly have. I know this 50k(for me anyway) will take a lot of work to make it into a 'real' draft but it will be worth it. To be given that starting point, in itself is priceless.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

RobertLent — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 06:56:08 -0800

If you want NaNoWriMo to be something other than what it is, you are certainly free to start your own organization.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

KedaseDerragar — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 07:11:09 -0800

If I notice a spelling/typographical error while I'm typing, it actually slows me down to leave it alone rather than go back and fix it. I'm too well-conditioned to let all of them slide - my finger goes to the backspace key so fast that most of the time the offending word is half-gone before I even notice the error with the non-reptile part of my brain. There are still plenty of errors left over that I don't catch as I go (I'm a keyboard-starer), and those I'm not bothering to go after - I actually think they'll help keep me engaged when editing later. But sometimes it is best to just edit mindlessly as you go, if forcing yourself to not edit will slow you down. That said, I take issue with the thread title. To me, NaNo has always been solely about getting the words on the page by the end of the month by whatever means necessary. The no-edit method is widely known and works well for a lot of people, but it's not like you'll get a slap on the wrist for editing if it suits your style. That's the beauty of it: everyone works differently, and it doesn't matter how you work as long as you finish.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Generalist — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 07:26:00 -0800

People vary too much for general rules to apply to everybody when it comes to a voluntary activity. Look at the pantser versus plotter discussions. While they are somewhat polarized, if you look at the details, it is actually a spectrum. At one extreme, you have the pantsers that only have a vague ideal of what they are writing about when they start, but are able to come up with a good start on things with the first draft. At the other extreme, you have plotters who have EVERYTHING neatly defined when they start and are able to come up with a good first draft. And in between, there are pantsers who do some plotting and plotters who don't go into a huge amount of detail when they are plotting.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Sydaliance — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 07:28:31 -0800

I edit frequently, and I admit that without guilt. I write about 2.3k+ a day (at the least), and though I don't reread everything I write in a day (because I don't have the time), I will correct an error if I catch it. I do tend to skim back over what I've written occasionally, and if I'm not in the middle of doing anything, I'll fix it, sure. I don't really think "not edit" means "never fix a typo" or "never fix a minor grammatical error." I like to think it means "save the major rewrite for later." There are lot of writers who restructure and rewrite before they've even finish writing the draft. THAT is something you should do during NaNo. Fixing minor errors doesn't qualify, I believe. So I wouldn't chastise anyone for doing some minor editing. But the thing you need to be careful about is stopping and focusing on a single section too long, trying to make JUST right. Especially if you're a writer who struggles with making your daily word count.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

rubysmummy — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 07:33:05 -0800

Oh, thank goodness it's not just me! This is my first Nano - I've previously only written short stories and am finding it a real struggle to fill out my chapters. I'm just about up to 30,000 now and my plot is used up and I'm now starting a Part 2. But I'm trying to write a 'decent yarn' even though I have no intentions of trying to get it published. For my own satisfaction, I need it to be something I can feel good about. And, yes, I edit minor things as I go - but I haven't been back through, doing a thorough edit - YET - I imagine, if I've time, that I will go through and tidy up when I've finished though - and before I claim I've done! I think it all depends on your motives for doing this, your 'perfectionism quotient' and how much time you have.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Generalist — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 07:38:21 -0800

Thankfully I don't have people yelling at me for editing as I go along. At the same time, I get odd looks when I say that I don't squash my Inner Editor when doing NaNoWriMo. Instead, I have a nice compromise with my Inner Editor. As long as the Inner Editor gets words down on paper, I let the Inner Editor edit those words that go from the mind to the pen. The end results are sentences and paragraphs that, while not absolutely perfect, are easy to read and coherent on a sentence by sentence, paragraph by paragraph basis. The Inner Editor knows that there are higher level errors, especially as the story evolves and the newer scenes make the older scenes 'wrong.' But the Inner Editor is also aware that things will change and the scenes just written will likely face the same fate. Why do higher level edits while the story is in flux? While the editing slows me down a little, hand writing allows me to proceed at a pace that allows such editing to be done. It doesn't keep me from doing a reasonable job in word wars, considering that I'm hand writing and not typing. I consistently hit around 400 words in fifteen minutes, ignoring the 50% 'bonus' our group gives those who hand write. (I just have to be writing easy scenes while doing this.)

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Feral — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 07:41:08 -0800

I'm huge on spelling and grammar. I also type very fast. My brain autopilots whenever I typo something, and I delete back to it and correct it without thinking. I have to edit things as I go through the story, otherwise I can't get a path in my head of where the story is supposed to go (like if something I write suddenly results in a writers block, I get rid of it and write something else). I am not emphasizing crap in my writing style, but I am allowing my story to be as crap as it wants to come out, just to get it out.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

RobertLent — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 08:01:19 -0800

The minimum length for a novel isn't clearly defined. The Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America have 40,000 words as the cutoff to be a novel, while other sources go as high as 70,000 words to be a novel. 50,000 words puts it within accepted limits of being a novel. Publishers may want books to be longer, but that is a different issue than whether or not it is long enough to be a novel. Also, since it is a first draft, content can be added during editing, but you can't do anything with it if it doesn't get written in the first place.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Generalist — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 09:27:06 -0800

[quote=RobertLent] Also, since it is a first draft, content can be added during editing, but you can't do anything with it if it doesn't get written in the first place. [/quote] This is the critical part. I seem to recall reading a blurb on why 50K was chosen as the NaNoWriMo target. It was tough enough to make one work, yet possible to do in 30 days for the normal person. It was also a decent starter length for a novel. If you are lucky, and you're writing the the right audience, 50K would be the right length. Of course you better edit it before you send it out. If you are not lucky, and 50K is too short, you'll have a good start on the higher number. You may even, if you are an overachiever, reach the length you need. (But you still better edit it before you send it out.)

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

glynes — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 09:42:40 -0800

I don't see the emphasis on low quality, but on accepting what you first put out there, and concentrating on getting the whole story out before worrying about quality. For me, this means that there may be a lot of stuff to deal with later that was a waste of time, BUT ... and this is a big BUT ... I even moref stuff that I thought was garbage while writing it, that ends up taking the story in new and surprising directions that I never would've thought of, and/or fits perfectly (with just a little tweaking) with ideas that come later. For instance, yesterday I thought the whole sequence of my 80-year-old main character going shopping for her first cell phone was going to be drivel. BUT ... it turned out revealing a whole new side to her that I didn't expect, became a riotous scene when she discovered the camera function and terrorized her whole household, for pictures of them ... AND ... that darned cell phone will end up being pivotal to solving the 40-year-old double-murder cold case. Had I worried about the quality and deleted it before delving further into the idea, I would have missed all that. I'm not emphasizing low quality ... but I'm accepting what I write, however awful it may seem at the time, and looking forward with glee to finding out it's going to fit with and affect the story. Besides, the more awful stuff there is, the more time I can justify in a lovely little writer's cabin in the woods next Summer, fixing it! 8-) To each his/her own.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

thefensk — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 09:46:04 -0800

I think it is how you look at it. I don't see it as an emphasis on low quality at all, but do see perfectionism as an impediment to speed. So you have to defer your perfectionism for the sake of speed. What did Chris Baty call it? Quantity, not quality. You should write as well as you can, but don't second guess yourself. You can do that later. Even the best writers I know do not turn out a work ready to be published on the first draft. In fact it should take quite a number of drafts. But it is just too darn easy to start work on a really good idea and then stall, just trying to find the best turn of a phrase, or labor over a character name. And that stall can turn into a break, which can turn into a sandwich, and maybe a beer, and a few Hogan's Heroes reruns ... on and on and on. The reason most novels never get written is that they never get written. If Yogi Berra had ever been a nanowrimo participant, I'm sure he would have said that. So, write however you like, but if you slog along getting everything just oh-so-perfect, you will be hard-pressed to make 50,000 words by November 30. Just remember that you will still need to edit it, no matter how good your first draft is. But you should also remember, you can't edit a blank page.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

glynes — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 09:51:09 -0800

Ooooh ... there are Hogan's Heroes reruns??!! What channel??!! 8-)

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

RobertLent — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 10:17:39 -0800

I wonder what percentage of NaNoWriMo winners even intend on publishing their work? Some people have the mistaken impression that NaNoWriMo is about having a novel ready for publication in 30 days. Some people just are satisfied with getting a first draft. They did what they set out to do, and don't even bother to edit it, let alone publish it. Others will clean up their draft, and maybe they will publish, and maybe they won't. I don't know if I will bother to have my book published or not. I'm not intending a career as an author. I've heard people claim that NaNoWriMo participants do not take it seriously and just stuff random words in to get to 50,000. But if that was true, then nearly all participants would reach 50,000. That so many do not reach 50,000 indicates that they are taking it seriously, because it would take about a minute to cut and paste words to reach 50,000. (I tried it, the word "banana" repeated 50,000 times. And no, I didn't use that for NaNoWriMo. I've heard people claim that NaNoWriMo is an example of extreme narcissism. What they mean is that NaNoWriMo participants are "uppity", thinking that maybe they can write too.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Jelsemium — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 10:22:04 -0800

[quote=thefensk] So, write however you like, but if you slog along getting everything just oh-so-perfect, you will be hard-pressed to make 50,000 words by November 30. Just remember that you will still need to edit it, no matter how good your first draft is. But you should also remember, you can't edit a blank page. [/quote] Excellent point! By the way, if you don't like NaNo's way of doing things, you're free to start your own writing challenge. I'm sure whatever style you favor there are many others who feel the same way. To paraphrase a joke, if you're one in a million, there are 7 more of you in New York City! [quote=thefensk] The reason most novels never get written is that they never get written. [/quote] Wow, I think that should be NaNoWriMo's motto! PS: I love your avatar, thefensk! That looks like the kitty in my avatar! (Or it would, if you could see more than her glowing eyes.)

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

rammfan518 — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 10:46:09 -0800

The time the original poster takes to edit and and polish DURING Nano is the same amount of time I am going to take editing and polishing AFTER Nano, so I guess it just comes down to when you want to do it. My problem with editing DURING Nano is that it doesn't give you much time to keep on creating. There's something I like about the marathon-attitude of Nano that I just couldn't achieve if I made sure every single sentence was perfect. I'd rather have 50,000 words of "trash" that I could play around with, move around, clean up and make perfect, at the end of the month than 10, 000 words of polished stuff. Never seen a 10,000 word novel. With 50,000 words, the clay is there to mold, so to speak. With 10,000, there isn't any more after 10,000. In my opinion, you gotta set out the clay that you can mold later. I already know I'm going to change things in my novel, but that's all right, I can go back and do it at the end of the month. It's not like I'm publishing up every chapter online and have to worry about narrative inconsistencies or mistakes. I understand that people don't want to write "rubbish", but that's why I don't write serious stuff during Nano. Not that I don't take it seriously (because I do), but my usual inner editor is locked away, simply because Nano isn't about the editing. It's about the writing and the exhaustion of the creative muscle inside all of us. Don't get too busy getting caught up in editing so much that you can't enjoy it. How do you not enjoy Nanowrimo? Lighten up! Haha. As thefensk said up top earlier: "The reason most novels never get written is that they never get written."

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

jdsingleton — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 10:52:27 -0800

It's about writing 50,000 words in 30 days -- that's what it boils down to. Most people that do this are juggling jobs, school, kids, and who knows what else. "Quantity over quality" is a suggestion to get to 50,000 words. "Don't go back and edit" is another suggestion, not a rule, since many people would spend too much time editing. (Personally, I always spell check at the end of each day, but that's all the "editing" I do.) If you want to write your NaNoWriMo work as a final draft, go ahead. If you want to continually go back and revise and edit, go ahead. If you don't get to 50,000 words, don't complain.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

rosellegreywood — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 11:30:12 -0800

I don't think the emphasis is on low quality - you write a minimum of 1667 words every day for thirty days to get a total goal of 50k words within thirty days. I have a lot of spare time compared to a lot of people - if I wrote 1667 every day I would have enough time to edit all of that, write up to the daily word goal again if I cut anything out, and be all dandy. I don't think this encourages bad writing habits - I think it encourages the habit of writing every day, and that's it. It's up to you whether you edit or not, but I think a lot of people don't edit until they finish their novel during NaNo because they simply don't have the time.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

dehro — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 11:52:45 -0800

it seems to me that to suggest a rules rewrite to raise the bar in one or the other way, would fly in the face of the very purpose and phylosophy of why nanowrimo exists in the first place. furthermore, I would say that this is a non-issue, if you have the time, skills and ammount of material to keep going at a steady pace and reach the finish line with a product that is up to higher standards than the Nanowrimo standards. more strenght to you, if that's the case...but never forget that the only competition here is with yourself, not with the other writers. not everybody can do that though, and I would argue that nanowrimo is more for them than it is for those who can. it's my first NaNo and I'm a few days ahead of schedule, which for a rookie isn't too bad, I suppose. now that I know I can actually do it, I also try not to write complete and utter garbage, which sometimes is harder than I'd like, especially during word wars, more so because I'm not writing in my mother tongue, which slows me down a little. now I have a tendency to over rationalize things, such as in this case why to take part to Nanowrimo at all.. and I'm a little wordy, so bear with me. why do people not reach the 50k quota at all in their normal everyday life? the way I see it, for these reasons: 1) because they get writers block. the nanowrimo comunity can help you get past it by giving you ideas, plot devices, new energy or simply by cheering you along and forcing you through the medium of wordwars to get at least "something" on paper, which then translates in another lease of life. 2)because people are lazy I know I am.. if I didn't have a fixed target and weren't "honor-bound" to deliver on time, I know I would end up lagging and giving priority to other stuff. I'm just a nobody with no actual publishing in sight or literary ambitions, but I know what it means to start writing a good story, getting derailed by life, and then go back a year later and realize you never finished what you set out to do...and not being able to pick up the pen again. Nanowrimo gives me that target (even though I know I'm gonna need a lifetime of nanowrimos to come to the end of the tale I'm currently spinning) 3)a lack of focus. similar to point 2, but different. a lot of people like to write, but don't always stick to the plot.. so they get derailed by their imagination, by new ideas..and never actually finish what they started to write. are they still writing? yes..do they get equally annoyed as my lazy self when they realize they wanted to complete a story? often. nanowrimo helps them to stay on course with their writing... not necessarily the course they set out for initially..but at least in broad terms..their plots may end up being more coherent than if they were left to write n'importe-quoi. 4)a lack of time. the Nanowrimo target helps you decide whether you want to "make" the time for it..and if that's not enough, it offers you word wars.. which, basically put, forces you to write faster for a shorter period of time. I find that, when I don't feel like writing much, I need but to take part in two/three word wars a day, and still meet my quota..even when I'm not quite in the zone with my thoughts, because I've had a long day at work. normally I'd take longer time to write the same amount..but I now know I don't have to... except I would never be able to wage a word war against myself. 5)insecurity. a lot of people don't have the confidence in their skills, in the opportunities that are out there, or in the fact that they can actually accomplish someting that, for a new writer, seems a rather massive accomplishment... so they settle for something they think they're better at or something that they HAVE to do... if what they really want is to write, however badly, they should be given this chance.. and Nanowrimo offers them this chance. an opportunity to break through the shell of their shyness and step on the dancefloor. if the rules were any more strict than saying "write whatever you want, as long as you write"..,. they may be scared away. encouraging feedback and selfless criticism is handily available here, whereas maybe in their environment they would not be taken seriously. I believe that right now the message nanowrimo sends out there is pretty much "go on, son..you can do it.. and if you need a hand, there's loads of people just like you out there, who won't look down their nose at you" change those rules, make it a "you win only if your 50k words are actually worthy of being at least presented for publication" contest..and you'll soon see less and less people take part. now..if only forum posts counted against one's wordcount..

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

theoretical_cat — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 12:15:38 -0800

I haven't read every post in here; many of them I see their point and can understand it, even when they seem to be in opposition. Here's my two cents: 1) The emphasis isn't on "low quality." The emphasis is on putting the idea down, and if the writing's not perfect, we want to be able to accept that regardless of how beautiful the prose is on the first go, we're gonna have to do some editing anyway, so why spend a long time worrying about whether this sentence sounds right... when there are more sentences to write? I do a little bit of editing (line edits and occasional continuity checks) as I go, but I know that if I finish this story, I'll have to do some serious editing to get it to the point that I would be willing to share it with ANYONE, much less try to get it published. I try not to go back to edit, because that would slow me down and keep me from getting to the exciting parts of the story. 2) No one said you can't edit. It's not recommended, but if you're keeping up or staying ahead of the daily word count, and your goal is 50k, then by all means, go back and rewrite. It's not cheating; technically, as I understand the rules, it's not even rebelling. 3) Not everyone is after a final product. I'm writing a novel, and I hope to finish it. A friend of mine is just writing a long story arc, as a writing exercise. This is a fanfic, so it won't ever be published by a "real" publisher, but it's still good practice for writing long-form fiction. 4) We're here to have fun. If doing extra edits as you go is appealing to you, I'm not going to stop you. Just please respect those of us who would rather get the story set on paper before we start playing with the wording.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Ramblejack — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 12:38:34 -0800

Ditto to most of the posts...ultimately, NaNo is about having fun and writing that idea that you've had kicking around in your brain. If you surf the other threads, you'll find hundreds of posts about people who've doubted that trying is 'even worth it', and people who have naysayers following them around like 3-D inner editors. People don't need reasons to be told why their writing style isn't good enough. We all need permission to have fun while writing. This is year seven for me and it's by far the hardest...why? Because I fell into the trap of listening to folks saying "try to write more quality." Pleh. On day six I still only had 4000 words. So last night, I took someone else's advice and sent my character to the circus...a totally random, red-herring-esque act that had nothing (and I do mean Nothing) to do with the plot. And while describing the tents and the horses and random stuff, my Muse got excited and some really good ideas emerged. All because I was willing to go off on a tangent and just write. The circus is suddenly integral or my story. Nothing is bad. Nothing is a waste of time. As long as you keep writing, you get practice, and you may find a gem you weren't looking for, that turns your fun story into a great story. Or, you'll just have fun with a lot of other folks having fun. Like so many others have said, not everyone wants to publish. One vote for keeping NaNo the awesome way it is now. Grins!

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Melody-Child — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 12:48:04 -0800

My issue is that I am always behind. The advice here is to not cut anything so you don't spend hours going back and revising and NOT writing. What I've done is gone back the week after. I always end up cutting huge amounts out, rewriting and almost never end up with 50k at the end. Also, I mostly do this as an excersie in writing something every day ad not stopping.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

RobertLent — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 12:54:44 -0800

I would say not to cut parts out. Leave them in, you may be able to salvage them later. You might find that with a little cleanup, they could be part of another chapter, or they might give you some ideas to use later. There might be nuggets of story ideas there.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Jessica_the_Overachiever — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 12:56:39 -0800

If you don't want to take the allowances, don't. I use good spelling and grammar, and try to write as well as I can given the time constraint. The accepting standards are meant to encourage beginners, not demand that more confident writers pad for the sake of padding. Just because I choose not to use dream sequences, rambling characters, and other tangents doesn't mean others can't.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Generalist — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 12:56:52 -0800

[quote=RobertLent] I wonder what percentage of NaNoWriMo winners even intend on publishing their work? Some people have the mistaken impression that NaNoWriMo is about having a novel ready for publication in 30 days. Some people just are satisfied with getting a first draft. They did what they set out to do, and don't even bother to edit it, let alone publish it. Others will clean up their draft, and maybe they will publish, and maybe they won't. I don't know if I will bother to have my book published or not. I'm not intending a career as an author. [/quote] Figure that it is more than zero percent and less than one hundred percent. (So I like padding my estimates...) I do dread those people that think that NaNoWriMo is about getting a novel ready for publication in 30 days, especially if they are doing it. Some of them may be the source of anecdotal complains about editors receiving NaNo based first drafts. I'm one of those that intend to be a published author, though not a career one. But for now, the goal is to polish my skills and complete a few stories. (I'll go career IF I somehow make a few million due to movie options or the like.) [quote=RobertLent] I've heard people claim that NaNoWriMo participants do not take it seriously and just stuff random words in to get to 50,000. But if that was true, then nearly all participants would reach 50,000. That so many do not reach 50,000 indicates that they are taking it seriously, because it would take about a minute to cut and paste words to reach 50,000. (I tried it, the word "banana" repeated 50,000 times. And no, I didn't use that for NaNoWriMo. [/quote] I'd love to get some of those NaNoWriMo detractors to make a claim that ALL NaNoWriMo participants do that. I would then show them my hand written NaNoWriMo pages, complete with dates and the times started. That would show them that at least one person doesn't do it. They would then have to eat their words. (A warning to detractors. Be careful of how you phrase things. Words and logic can bite.) You do have to admit that some NaNoWriMo participants use various word padding techniques to get to 50K. And, given the large number of NaNoWriMo participants, you are likely to find a few that DO stuff in random words to get to the word count. But claiming that they are a representative sample of the entire population would require actual statistics, which would be hard to get. [quote=RobertLent] I've heard people claim that NaNoWriMo is an example of extreme narcissism. What they mean is that NaNoWriMo participants are "uppity", thinking that maybe they can write too. [/quote] You could always ask people like this about the 'proper' qualifications for being a writer. If they talk about years of training and MFAs, mention that their definition means that well known novelists like Charles Dickens and Jane Austen are NOT authors.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

C.J. Sandiego — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 12:56:59 -0800

Just use strike through. Or change the font to an eye bleeding color. That way you still have word count and you've marked parts that need to get cut for December.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

~TempesT~ — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 12:57:47 -0800

Yes, this. My NaNo this year is a Mary Sue fanfic that no one must ever see but me.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Generalist — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 13:03:17 -0800

These are all good reasons to leave things in rather than cutting them. I also look at the aspect that the story evolves over time, even if you have a detailed Phase Outline. If you are always going back and rewriting things because of what you have just written, you will spend more time rewriting than you will spend writing. You may also end up rewriting what you have rewritten because something else happens. That gets tedious after a while, especially if you have lots of subplots going on. It is MUCH easier to make notes and continue until the first draft is done and the evolution has slowed.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

WaxAngelWings — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 13:12:49 -0800

I have been writing and attempting to write actual novels for YEARS now. I intend one day to sell a novel or a screen play or both. I read a bunch of stuff before starting (this is my first year) to NEVER DELETE. That really bothered me. I delete all of the time. Then again I write 65wpm if I am transcribing, even faster if it's just stream of consciousness. This morning I wrote over 1200 words in a half hour. I have wanted to do this particular story for a while, but don't know if I will keep any of it as a novel to edit if I don't like the finish product or find that it doesn't mix in with the small mythology that the world I am writing in. Anyway, that being said, now whenever I go back and delete something there is some nano fanatic demon in my head screaming at me not to delete a single thing. Though I find myself padding by maybe adding an extra descriptive word that shouldn't be there, I in no way write nonsensical drivel just to get the word count. Right now I am a bit behind at a little over 13000 words. Since this is my first time, I don't think I'll be bummed if I don't finish and besides I look at it as a really good jump start to a novel that I wanted to do for a while anyway but just let the idea spin in my head for 6 months.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Ramblejack — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 14:45:08 -0800

[quote=C.J. Sandiego] Just use strike through. Or change the font to an eye bleeding color. That way you still have word count and you've marked parts that need to get cut for December. [/quote] This. Or if you can't stand looking at it, just change the font color to white on the stuff you may edit out later, then keep going.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Butterflyblue77 — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 14:56:04 -0800

Well, in this, like so many other things, you do what works for you. I travel a middle road: my work is by no means ready to show others, but at the same time, I edit all the time. I take out whole paragraphs, I rewrite descriptions, I find better ways to word things. I can do so and still keep up my word count, so to me there is no downside. I do not, however, obsessively rewrite and polish each day, because I know full well that I'll get to the end and some of this (entire chapters) are going to go out of the window just because the course of the story has deviated from what was originally planned. Why waste time perfecting something I'll just toss anyway? But I can't for sure say which parts those are, right now. I don't set out to write crap, and I try to have something that I really can whip into shape and submit for publication later, but sometimes turning off that internal editor helps me get the words out that I wouldn't otherwise. There are occasional diamonds in there.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

okaysparky — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 16:56:04 -0800

At the end of the day, some people go about their writing and editing one way, others go about it other ways. None of them are wrong, they're just different. There's no point spending time that could be spent writing worrying about how other people choose to do it - do it the way that works best for you.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Bovver — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 17:18:24 -0800

I'm with IVIilitarus. I'm writing 2000 words a day, with an additional focus at the end of the say on editing for spelling, rewriting, and formatting. Not necessarily because I feel that's how one should so NaNo, but because that is the method that works the best for me. I also have a hell of a lot of free time which helps make it possible :)

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Olafstar — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 18:05:30 -0800

The way I see it is editing is supposed to be a reward for getting ahead. Because 50,000/month is typically unrealistic for a lot of people, the idea is to get the words down first and not worry about accuracy (to make it go faster), and then go back and edit in late november/december. That way, you can win. I'm 15 years old, and I don't have all the time in the world on my hands. I get up at about 6:10 each morning, I'm dropped off at school at about 7. I don't leave school until 2:15. On Tuesdays I stay longer because of quiz bowl, and on Thursdays I stay longer because of Jazz Band. Once I get home, I have to do homework, eat dinner, shower, spend some time with my family, and some nights I pratice my trumpet and/or piano. I have to find time within that to write, and still manage to have a life in the midst of everything. Plus, I had a slow start during days 1-4 or so, I was about 3,000 words behind for week 1, and now I'm trying to make it up during week 2. On weekends I get a lot more time, but that's only 2 days/week. I have to make the best of both school days and weekend days in order to win. Believe it or not, I actually quit the other 2 forums I go on (Wolfquest and Warriors Wish) for the month of november in order to have time to win and actively participate in the NaNo community. My slight activity on the Warriors Unofficial Online Game forums had to go away for this month as well. My point is, for most people, this isn't an easy thing to make time for, and I have a somewhat proscrasinstic (sp?) nature regardless. And so, we can barely get 50k words down, and some of us are first or second years who have little to no exprience with writing so much in just one month. And so, time to edit is scarce. And to most participators, it's better to win with a story desperately in need of editing, then to lose because you insisted on having a "perfect" story.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Moosetastic — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 18:28:34 -0800

Someone has a different take than me on things! I'd better respond sarcastically and pull out a GIF!

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Moosetastic — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 18:57:56 -0800

This entire thread has got me thinking about hubris. I myself have been guilty of it. I first attempted NaNo a good eight years ago, and I will swear up and down that, back then, the rules stated that one could not have so much as an outline prepared come November. One's novel had to be completely off-the-cuff, sans planning. So, imagine my dismay when I hopped into this forum last week and saw posts dating from October about the status of outlines. "Excuse me?" I thought. "What is this madness? Why is this considered acceptable? IT IS CHEATING TO HAVE AN OUTLINE!" Well, turns out that it isn't cheating. And I have no way of proving that it ever was. So, why did I have such an extreme reaction to the current status quo? It's simple: NaNo means something particular to me, and I made the mistake of generalizing this meaning to the challenge as a whole. I see NaNo as a time to let loose and give myself over to my creative side, and this cannot happen if I'm overly concerned with quality and I'm constantly going back and editing. I'm a perfectionist, and I often have difficulty writing the stories that I truly want to write; nothing is ever good enough. NaNo unleashes something within me that, after November, allows me to work on the projects I really care about with renewed vigor. I forgot this for many years, and only recently returned. But already, I feel the benefits. To me, it's not about "poor quality," per se. It's about the joy of simply writing for its own sake, and this cannot be achieved if I've charted everything out ahead of time, or if I'm spending a decent chunk of time each night on editing. I stress: [i]this is for me.[/i] If you get more out of the challenge from editing, then that's great for you. But don't make the same mistake that I did. Don't think that, because you approach it in this way, that there is something wrong with the manner in which the challenge is currently presented, or that others who don't follow your path are guilty of some sin. NaNo is what you make of it. The only thing that it's really about, at the end of the day, is writing. And there are many, many different ways to write.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Willcan — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 19:04:52 -0800

Just how would the quality of a person's novel be judged?

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Soolkiki — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 19:05:56 -0800

I whole-heartily agree with you on this, I've been editing as I go and I haven't been falling behind. If I don't like something, I delete it and re-write it!

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Cokkii — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 19:18:25 -0800

Let's face the facts. It takes time to dig down and get the good stuff. It's hidden under all that crap. The goal of NaNoWriMo is to get the damn thing written and then, if people feel like it, they can go back another day and fix all the mistakes, errors, and cut out scenes that don't make sense. For most people getting the 50,000 words is the hardest part. Let all the fine detail work come later and when you're less stressed about reaching a daily goal. Of course if you feel like you have the time and really want to, then go ahead an edit as you go. But some people, like myself, are full time students who not only participate in NaNo but have to write papers, take finals, and do all the other things that require writing. If I took all of those words into account I would be well passed 100,000 words already.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

originalgradk — Thu, 10 Nov 2011 05:14:10 -0800

[quote=Generalist] Define what you think the NaNo Model is and what aspects would you change? I suspect that some of the fluff you are talking about are the word padding things that people do to get their word count up to the 50K goal. Another part may be the permission to 'write crap' in the process of getting a completed first draft in thirty days. Then there is the 50K goal, which is fine for a novella, but way to short for standard novels. Well I figure that you have to start somewhere. If you are a complete novice, just getting to 50K could be a big challenge. If you have written for a number of years, getting to 50K in thirty days could be a big challenge. If you are a perfectionist, 5K in less than a decade could be a challenge. Unnecessary Fluff Exercises, filling out the text in a way that goes against the spirit of characterisation. Aim for a proper length that is more normal Novel length ie 100,000 words than 50,000 words which I think is wildly faulty and misrepresentative of the novels being sold in the big wide world out there. (I would rather aim for standard length text than Novella length text as I think it is normal if harder model to accomplish in real life). The Communal goals of Nanowrimo are to be applauded but would a Month be long enough to accomplish say a 100,000 standard novel length attempt at a first Draft? That is 16k words day! well beyond the abilities of all but seasoned professionals IMHO who are used to writing in vast qauntities. Use other Literary Books to guide instead of cling ferociously to 'No Plot No Problenm' which can be an acceptable part of the Make up. My example is Clare Boylan 'the Agony and the Ego' Writers tricks ( you have whatever trick you have in order to write, one doesn't necessarily require a wacking great big clumsy viking helmet on ones head and peoples accoutrements could easily be shown on Social networking websites). Dorothea Brand 'On Becoming a Writer' This woman advocates writing first thing on rising and writing anything, that way stuff comes out. It's putting up with rubbish that one learns to edit along with way without editing because writing for a certain amount of time every day is a great discipline. She also rightly tells us about rightly the faults of would be novelists the one novel wonder etc. All worthy and worthy of total commendation. Editing comes in later with modelling on novelists you like so her model includes Editing. Nothing missing here. Teach Yourself how to write a Block buster. Good hints and tips. Rollo May The Courage to create. 'create through despair' hey this guy I have hardly read -yet looks as if he has important things to say. No Plot no problem for guidance on nano project which as you can see from above I contend needs revising on more sound literary grounds, but grounds that makes it easy entry to newcomers any one to write a Novella, then graduate onto proper Novel drafts of 100k more. I defend this revision. I have been put off years of participating in Nano because of what I see is a frightfully deficient model which does not help the Nano's cause. NaNoWriMo offers a chance to overcome those challenges in a group environment, with lots of people willing to help you overcome the challenges. I know it has helped me do more writing in the last year and a half than I did in several decades. It has also helped me overcome certain tendencies to write the 'fun' parts of a story and skip things like the beginning and end. Perhaps NaNoWriMo could be where people start to develop the Literary Talent that lies in all of us, getting to the point they they feel good about what they do. Then they could go to the graduate course on more effective ways to work. (Or suggestions on the "lot more sane, rational yet accommodating model' you speak about.) [/quote]

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

originalgradk — Thu, 10 Nov 2011 05:16:10 -0800

I don't edit as I go even if Inner Editor is thinking there is a million things wrong with my novel. Just getting damn thing written is key thing and winning preferably with a 90,000-100.000 k draft than 50k but 50k + if all else fails!

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

originalgradk — Thu, 10 Nov 2011 05:17:49 -0800

There is nothing wrong with just writing for sake of writing just to write for the exercise, but aiming for a normal size draft for preference, or Novella just to get started.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

RobertLent — Thu, 10 Nov 2011 07:31:04 -0800

We've all met the guy who has an idea for a story. And he tells you about it again and again. But never writes a single world. I wish these people would do NaNoWriMo, take that story that's been kicking around in your head for years and let it out.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

ereedak — Thu, 10 Nov 2011 07:38:43 -0800

For what it's worth, my agent says that 75,000-80,000 is the bare minimum major publishers will consider for an adult novel. I agree that writing shlock for shlock's sake isn't really worth my time and effort yet, I found the first time I did NaNo, it gave me the freedom to just write. I didn't worry so much about the finished product, but just went with it. However, I did try to do my best and as a result that book has been accepted by an agent without requiring massive rewrites (thus far!). I see nothing wrong with doing your best as long as it doesn't impede you moving ahead. So many people get caught up in editing their work they bog down. One of NaNo's goals is to get past that particular roadblock. Certainly there are people who simply try to cram as many words as they can into their novel without any real consideration for what it means for the story, but I think the majority do try and attempt something worthwhile. Most of all, I think NaNo give us an opportunity to try new things. Experiment with our writing. Some people may decide writing isn't really their thing where others may discover they have a real talent. Some, like me, found it to be the incentive to fulfill a dream!

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

dangerously_dru — Thu, 10 Nov 2011 08:34:08 -0800

I second this.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

MoonPuppy1316 — Thu, 10 Nov 2011 08:50:53 -0800

I edit mildly as I go along. If a sentence doesn't sound right or I can add a word here that makes it better, I'll throw it in to keep my train of thought fluid. Stuff like spelling and grammar word points out for me so not fixing it leaves a lot of distracting red and green everywhere. x-x Usually though I focus on getting out what I need to get out unless I'm comfortably ahead of schedule. Unless I know I can spare a few minutes to fix up my grammar, I won't until I can. So long as it's coherent enough to let my imagination keep running, it's coherent enough to get me through November.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

caprici42 — Thu, 10 Nov 2011 09:02:31 -0800

Completely agree with that. At the end of the day, this is a challenge to get people writing. Would I love to get to 50,000 words? Absolutely, and I will try my hardest. But I also set out with the realization that I can't put everything on hold, so any amount I write will be a triumph for me. I passed the 10,000 word mark the other day, and I was completely thrilled because I had never written that length on a story of mine before. Though I do have a broad outline (and almost 30,000 words of character/world building notes), I'm discovering the minutia of the scenes and the characters as I write. It's quite amazing. That's why I'm doing NaNo: I've developed this idea since 2007, and while I did other projects in the meantime, all of that was planning and thinking. It was worthwhile, as the plot needed time to rest while I worked out occasional hiccups, but I'm at the point where I realized that I could refine the outline until I died and never actually write it. I need to write it, get it out, and then revise, polish, rework, etc. I'm one of those who doesn't write easily because of that nefarious Internal Editor, and I've likened writing to dry heaving, struggling to produce words to bring to life the images in your head and just getting nothing. NaNo has released that for me. The first few days were a struggle, but now ideas and words are flowing, as they should. I will correct grammar, I will start writing a sentence and then think of another way to write it, but the process is still ever moving forward. And that, for me, is the point of NaNo. Personal satisfaction, personal discovery, because really, what is a paper certificate worth? It shows that you made the effort, completed the challenge set forth. That only means something to those who actually get something out of it and to show for it, in whatever capacity.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Debbi — Thu, 10 Nov 2011 09:16:21 -0800

I know one year I took off auto spell and auto correct. Now it doesn't even bother me. At least on my Nano. Of course I'm writig on a netbook and the screen is small anyway, so those underlines are gone by the time I stop writing. And I stopped rereading what I wrote. That just works for me. I don't a problem with people editing or not. Writing literary work or junk. It's whatever works for them. I prefer to write a new novel in November and getting to 50k. This year I'm doing the no planning because I couldn't think of what to write about. But I've planned before, however, I found really only character development and a few plot points work best for me.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

aerosimmy — Thu, 10 Nov 2011 09:19:02 -0800

[quote=originalgradk] I agree, I think the Nano Model if you can call it that is well overdue for revision. For instance 50k novellas based on the decent novels by Orwell et all, OR proper Novel lengths of 100,000+ (which for the first time I am aiming for!!). I think that the emphasis on using fluff to expand texts is bad methodology. It is almost page filling rather than Novel Writing. I am participating, for the years I have not, the reason being is I think Nano encourages bad practice in writing. hence my theory that the Model should be revised-as a matter of urgency and be replaced by a lot more sane rational yet accomodating model to make room for the would be Literary Talent that lies in all of us. [/quote] I have to disagree here. I find that the "NaNo Model" is flexible enough to work for a very wide range of people. If you are able to edit to any degree as you go and still get the words down for the day, more power to you. If you find that 50k isn't enough of a challenge, nobody's stopping you from writing more than that. It is inevitable (or at least I think it is) that over time as people return for multiple years will get better over time, or people who are just better at writing from the get-go join in. They have the ability to tailor it to make it a challenge for the level at which they find themselves. They go for faster completion, more words, better quality or some combination of the three. I think all of this would probably fall under the "over-achievers" category, for which there's a forum. The fact of the matter is that regardless of how many years they have under their belt participating, no matter how much their writing has improved, there will always be people coming in to take their place on the bottom rungs of the ladder, so that lower word count and the option of not writing perfect prose in 30 days needs to remain there for them to cut their teeth upon. And as far as the "no editing rule," I think that's less about spelling and more about staying away from the major revisions (whatever they may be for each individual). If I misspell something in the past few sentences I fix it because that is a pet peeve that I can indulge without it affecting my output. How prolific I am with my word count really has to do with how well the story is flowing for me. Last year I hit 50k with a full week to spare and added only 6k more because I didn't go back to finish the story until the last day or two. This year I'm 4k behind as of today because I'm just not hitting that stride that I found with last year's story.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

HecticZ — Thu, 10 Nov 2011 09:28:41 -0800

My novel is utter crap. But it's made me write a lot more than I would normally, and I value that. It's safe to say it's been one of the funnest experiences I've done. Me going back and editing it now would drain the fun out of it. I enjoy seeing crappy similes and metaphors in there. I enjoy seeing that it's so bad it's good. I like that, because I know that when I go over it after November, it's going to be great.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Sugar.Weregoindown — Thu, 10 Nov 2011 10:01:19 -0800

I think the emphasis is it not HAVING to be of amazing quality. If you happen to have the time, or crazy typing skill or something to be able to write, write well, and edit while staying ahead, by all means go. I think you will be hard pressed to find someone who thinks that that is wrong. I think more to the point is that loads of people simply don't have the time. They manage to squeeze the time to write a couple thousand words most days, and stay mainly on top of everything, but editing for a lot of people isn't really feasible if they want to get to the end of their story, so they wait. And because of this, people end up with some insanely low quality stuff in some places (like this: How could to possibly glass? or They didn't have monopoly, so instead they had to play monopoly. Both of which I have written at some point this year...) But other stuff will be good. And even the rubbish, well that is better than nothing at the end of the day for many people.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Fatal_Velocity — Thu, 10 Nov 2011 10:05:12 -0800

For people who say there needs to be a second competition for those who want to "be more serious" and write something truly novel length, I swear that I heard of a 100,000 word in [insert month here] challenge. If it isn't and never will be official, that's not a problem. We all have the ability to write this much in any month we choose with out the presence of NaNoWriMo. Right? If you wish to write more than 50k no one is stopping you. I know loads of people who do NaNo like events throughout the year. Every published author (career authors too) I have spoken to, or read in an interview, or heard on a podcast, etc. has said something along the lines of "first drafts are crap". They all seem to agree. No secrets there. Besides, no one has to see the very first draft, ever, so let it be crap I say. I've always held the opinion that if writing a full first draft takes any more than 10-30% of the entire process then something is wrong. The best part of writing by far is the editting process. Getting down and dirty with your words. Seeing what works and what doesn't and leaving the crap "on the cutting room floor". Perhaps there's something in this film metaphor ... With all the planning that can go into a film, even if everything there in is pure gold film making, editors always manage to cut stuff. Until its done you can't possibly work on flow, in terms of scene order also. Though something may well be solid prose and narrative, that doesn't mean it necessarily has a place in the work. The point of NaNo, for me, is to get something down you can work on. If it isn't on paper, or file then how is it ever going to be perfected? How will you know that a certain plot point doesn't work if you don't write it? Outlining can only do so much. And you can't sell an outline. I ADORE explaining to people why a "competition" like NaNoWrioMo doesn't have a tangible prize. People who haven't heard of it just dont seem to get it, which is why I like to call it a challenge instead. It's all a matter of definition. You take from NaNo what you want, you get out of it what you put in. If you can write 100% perfect prose straight off the bat and publish with little editting then all the power to you, you're a genius and should win like, ALL the awards. The rest of will write whatever comes to us. Forcing perfection can hinder those beautiful moments of accidental inspiration, an ad libed conversation turning into a new subplot... and so on. For those who didn't read any of that, I don't blame you. Long thread, long post. Just needed to get my thoughts out there so I can get on with writing. ^_^

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

molin84 — Thu, 10 Nov 2011 10:05:27 -0800

haha i wish i could write 2,000 "up to my standard" words in a day. too bad my job, grad school, spending time with my fiance, seem to all get in the way. maybe I should just run away and write in a log cabin somewhere. disown everyone and everything.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Fatal_Velocity — Thu, 10 Nov 2011 10:09:11 -0800

For some that's the dream ;) haha

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

molin84 — Thu, 10 Nov 2011 10:16:05 -0800

Would be nice to comfortably write 2,000 words per day. I envy that. I manage between 500-1000 (if I'm lucky). Maybe I need to build a shack in my backyard and write in there. Like Roald Dahl. Don't come out until I'm done.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

molin84 — Thu, 10 Nov 2011 10:28:11 -0800

Franz Kafka wrote the Metamorphosis in less than a month. It's probably half of what the NaNoWriMo standards are. A fantastic novella. There is a huge market for short novellas. People want to change it up with shorter books (that are great pieces of lit) they can read on a plane or when they have some time off and want to get through a book. Essentially, I'm not sure that I agree with "Proper" novel length proposition. Still wish the best of luck to you as do I for all the people who are trying to meet the 50,000 word goal.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

molin84 — Thu, 10 Nov 2011 10:34:10 -0800

here here

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

molin84 — Thu, 10 Nov 2011 10:34:52 -0800

hahahaha

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Krynn-Meridia — Thu, 10 Nov 2011 11:47:50 -0800

I am writing the exact same thing. D:

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

LaylaWrites — Thu, 10 Nov 2011 11:53:41 -0800

I don't allow anything to stay that's not to my standards, either. I understand the reasoning behind it, especially for people trying to squeeze in novelling time, but one of the things I pride myself on is fairly clean copy on the first go 'round, and that necessitates thinking things through before I commit them to paper. Or screen, rather; writing on paper hurts my hands.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

originalgradk — Thu, 10 Nov 2011 12:26:10 -0800

If you had a Second Competition running alongside the Novella Competition. What's not to love? What's wrong with Literary refinement such as mentioned in the books I mentioned? I am very aware of the Nano detractors perhaps this is what is needed to repair the model which on both streams could have the same levels of gay abandon meaning Nano is accessible at both levels?

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

originalgradk — Thu, 10 Nov 2011 12:28:06 -0800

I am with Baty on not editing but my only concession is I am trying to get good text by filling up texts by using verbatim dictation to help the plot along and to give my dreadful writers voice a rest! I am finding I have to be commited to my Novel in all it's inherent dreadfulness and see a plot coming through that makes total sense.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

RobertLent — Thu, 10 Nov 2011 12:32:31 -0800

I don't think you can win over the detractors. Their real issue is that the unwashed masses are trying their hand at writing. They fear the competition, because there are a lot of good writers who bypass the publishers entirely. There no longer is any gatekeepers on writing, except the readers themselves.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

LaylaWrites — Thu, 10 Nov 2011 12:38:04 -0800

[quote=thefensk] But it is just too darn easy to start work on a really good idea and then stall, just trying to find the best turn of a phrase, or labor over a character name. And that stall can turn into a break, which can turn into a sandwich, and maybe a beer, and a few Hogan's Heroes reruns ... on and on and on. [/quote] Hmm. I'm in the forums, instead of working toward my word count goal for the day... I think I'll go for that sandwich, now.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

canardly — Thu, 10 Nov 2011 12:43:12 -0800

I do some editing while I write. Spelling is always corrected, as is sentence structure. I will be doing major editing to certain things I don't know much about at the moment, but see that as the reason for the editing in the first place. I also delete sections if while writing them I feel the words are flowing but not making much sense, or are flat out bad in my opinion. I think leaving every word in your text only creates more to delete later, leaving you a bit deflated when you see your 50k text shrink to the 40k or so worth keeping. I'd find it pretty hard to move forward at that point.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

LaylaWrites — Thu, 10 Nov 2011 12:43:27 -0800

You're the third person I've seen mention that they're choosing not to write in their first language- may I ask why (and anyone who has a reason can answer)? I just don't understand; to me, writing the novel is hard enough. I don't want to have to labor with crap like vocabulary and idiom and whether, "Oh...that's okay in Spain, but you better not say that in Mexico," you know?

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

LaylaWrites — Thu, 10 Nov 2011 12:53:59 -0800

There is a tribunal, and if the work isn't good enough, you'll be Released to Elsewhere. :P

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Generalist — Thu, 10 Nov 2011 22:36:39 -0800

(Pardon the parsing, but I do like some clarity in posting. I think a variation of the following is what you were trying for.) [quote=Generalist] Define what you think the NaNo Model is and what aspects would you change? I suspect that some of the fluff you are talking about are the word padding things that people do to get their word count up to the 50K goal. Another part may be the permission to 'write crap' in the process of getting a completed first draft in thirty days. Then there is the 50K goal, which is fine for a novella, but way to short for standard novels. Well I figure that you have to start somewhere. If you are a complete novice, just getting to 50K could be a big challenge. If you have written for a number of years, getting to 50K in thirty days could be a big challenge. If you are a perfectionist, 5K in less than a decade could be a challenge. [/quote] [quote=originalgradk] Unnecessary Fluff Exercises, filling out the text in a way that goes against the spirit of characterisation. [/quote] Fair enough. Some people use them because they get stuck and are getting behind on their word count. Other people, like me, ignore them because they don't need the fluff. In some instances, the fluff exercises can be a kick starting technique to get the creative engines running again. [quote=originalgradk] Aim for a proper length that is more normal Novel length ie 100,000 words than 50,000 words which I think is wildly faulty and misrepresentative of the novels being sold in the big wide world out there. (I would rather aim for standard length text than Novella length text as I think it is normal if harder model to accomplish in real life). The Communal goals of Nanowrimo are to be applauded but would a Month be long enough to accomplish say a 100,000 standard novel length attempt at a first Draft? That is 16k words day! well beyond the abilities of all but seasoned professionals IMHO who are used to writing in vast qauntities. [/quote] Actually, it is 'only' about 3,334 words a day. If the NaNo Minimum is 1,667 over thirty days to get to 50K, you double that to get to 100K. I'm trying for that number this year because that is the minimum it will take to write the story I'm writing. Given how it is relative to the Phase Outline, it is likely to go longer. I'll then have to trim it down or polish it to the point that it is acceptable at a longer length. (It is SF. The genre tends to go long.) [quote=originalgradk] Use other Literary Books to guide instead of cling ferociously to 'No Plot No Problenm' which can be an acceptable part of the Make up. My example is Clare Boylan 'the Agony and the Ego' Writers tricks ( you have whatever trick you have in order to write, one doesn't necessarily require a wacking great big clumsy viking helmet on ones head and peoples accoutrements could easily be shown on Social networking websites). [/quote] This sounds like an interesting book, though I haven't encountered it before. Since it is a collection of essays, I suspect that it might have included Chris Baty if it had been edited/published in 2004 as opposed to 1994. Reading about the history of NaNoWriMo, the Viking helmet trick was one that the creator of NaNoWriMo came up with that works for him when dealing with certain writing problems. It is far enough over the top that people may consider doing lesser things to handle similar problems. It is a small, but very up front solution to the art and strategy of fiction writing. (Being 'bigger than life' it attracts attention.) [quote=originalgradk] Dorothea Brand 'On Becoming a Writer' This woman advocates writing first thing on rising and writing anything, that way stuff comes out. It's putting up with rubbish that one learns to edit along with way without editing because writing for a certain amount of time every day is a great discipline. She also rightly tells us about rightly the faults of would be novelists the one novel wonder etc. All worthy and worthy of total commendation. Editing comes in later with modelling on novelists you like so her model includes Editing. Nothing missing here. [/quote] The 'write first thing on rising' technique, with additions, sounds a lot like Julia Cameron's Morning Pages, from "The Artists Way." It is useful for dealing with creative block. The 'putting up with rubbish' part fits both NaNoWriMo's 'write crap' aspect and Cameron's 'permission to make mistakes' aspect. All three recognize that you can't start out being perfect. Through the discipline of writing daily, or doing something like the Morning Pages (Writing daily, for a different reason), or hunkering down and writing 50K plus words in a month, you learn. [quote=originalgradk] Teach Yourself how to write a Block buster. Good hints and tips. [/quote] I may have this in my library of writing books, or something like it. I'll have to read it again. [quote=originalgradk] Rollo May The Courage to create. 'create through despair' hey this guy I have hardly read -yet looks as if he has important things to say. [/quote] Does the 'create through despair' refer to using despair as a source for creativity or are you trying to handle despair by being creative? I can see how both could work. I seem to recall that Julia Cameron, the author of the Artists Way series of books, has touched on similar topics. [quote=originalgradk] No Plot no problem for guidance on nano project which as you can see from above I contend needs revising on more sound literary grounds, but grounds that makes it easy entry to newcomers any one to write a Novella, then graduate onto proper Novel drafts of 100k more. I defend this revision. I have been put off years of participating in Nano because of what I see is a frightfully deficient model which does not help the Nano's cause. [/quote] From what I've read of the book, it is a short, task specific tome aimed at helping people through NaNoWriMo. Based on several years of experience, it has a lot of useful information on writing in general. I get the feeling that the "No Plot? No Problem!" title is more to get the attention of people than to describe the contents of the book. The secondary title, "A Low-Stress, High-Velocity Guide to Writing a Novel in 30 Days" is more descriptive of the book. (I'll have to read the book from cover to cover to find the 'No Plot? No Problem!' details, other than in the area where pantsers versus plotters are concerned. It isn't obvious while skimming.) [quote=Generalist] NaNoWriMo offers a chance to overcome those challenges in a group environment, with lots of people willing to help you overcome the challenges. I know it has helped me do more writing in the last year and a half than I did in several decades. It has also helped me overcome certain tendencies to write the 'fun' parts of a story and skip things like the beginning and end. Perhaps NaNoWriMo could be where people start to develop the Literary Talent that lies in all of us, getting to the point they they feel good about what they do. Then they could go to the graduate course on more effective ways to work. (Or suggestions on the "lot more sane, rational yet accommodating model' you speak about.) [/quote]

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Generalist — Thu, 10 Nov 2011 22:43:58 -0800

We may be dealing with different definitions of 'editing as you go.' Mine involves slowing down enough that I can create reasonably coherent sentences and paragraphs as I write. If I go stream of consciousness, I can get ideas down faster, but the sentences tend to be a lot less coherent. At the same time I realize that there are a million or more things wrong with the story but I do not go back and edit what I've written because it is highly likely that there will be a million and twenty thousand things wrong after the next scene, even with revisions.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Generalist — Thu, 10 Nov 2011 22:47:30 -0800

The story I'm writing right now fits this. My wife and I have been talking about the overall story for decades. I'm now getting to the point where I'm writing it, with tech changes. After doing a practice NaNoWriMo, a November NaNoWriMo and both Camp NaNoWriMo's, I'm feeling good about what is happening.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Generalist — Thu, 10 Nov 2011 22:57:36 -0800

The 'Second Competition' is the Overachievers thread. It would be interesting to compare the books that you mentioned to Baty's book and see how many similarities there are. I suspect that there will be some overlap. There may even be a lot of overlap. As far as detractors are concerned, there are some that will diss NaNoWriMo even if NaNoWriMo worked on a 'better' model that supported literary refinement. The book reviewer from Slate comes to mind.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

David88 — Thu, 10 Nov 2011 23:05:46 -0800

High-quality masterpieces of fiction are not thrown together in one month. ;)

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Generalist — Thu, 10 Nov 2011 23:29:52 -0800

First drafts are rarely high-quality masterpieces. In fact, there are a lot of authors that consider that first drafts are 'crap.' You might, how ever, create a high-quality masterpiece of really short fiction in a month. Perhaps a thousand words.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

solitaira — Fri, 11 Nov 2011 02:14:35 -0800

I think this is a really good point. Sentences and paragraphs - I proofread/edit my writing at that level, almost subconsciously, while I'm going (for me, literally as I write the sentence, because I don't like going through and rereading whole stretches of text). But one of the biggest things I do after I 'finish' the story is look at the whole story scene-by-scene, and move whole scenes and whole chapters around to where they'd make better sense in the overall plot. I don't plan my stories beyond a vague idea of the beginning and end, so I often have subplots I've introduced at the very end that need to start at the beginning or in the middle, or I change the main character's background in order to make the finale work but that means I've got to change it all through the rest of the story as well. I think I write pretty good *sentences* - which in my very first NaNo story was a huge problem for me, because I kept rereading my beautiful sentences and editing them to perfection - which of course guaranteed that when it was time to chop the entire scene, I just couldn't do it. I think editing as you go to a certain extent makes you think 'okay, this section is *done* - I'll never have to edit it again'. Sure you can overcome that, but it's a lot easier to make big edits when you haven't slaved away making the small edits perfect.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

iampat — Fri, 11 Nov 2011 02:18:43 -0800

all depends on your definition of high-quality. some of my favourite works are from the pulp era when they were indeed thrown together in a month.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

iampat — Fri, 11 Nov 2011 02:39:44 -0800

i am a failed writer. i have gone on about how i would like to be a writer for longer than i care to admit. i have notebooks full of ideas and partial plots and longer chunks of prose. when i started doing NaNo it was with the express desire just to get the words down. just to see if i could get beyond the idea and into the meat and potatos of it. i did. it wasn't great, had some nice ideas along the way. it was never finished and i have never looked back at it. so here i am again doing it again this year. same reason. just want to knock out the words. had a few ideas for a story, nothing more than a sentence or two that gave me a starting place. i am behind the pace at the moment, might catch up, we'll see. i am doing this on the fly. no serious editing. pretty much for the simple reason i don't expect this to ever be read. the reason i am doing it is because of the challenge to hit 50k and i am hoping that this year i will remember to keep wriiting once november has finished - either with this story or with shorter pieces. i agree with many of the previous posts - in the end this all comes done to what works for you. we don't all like the same types of fiction, we don't approach things in the same way, we all have different circumstances - so do it how you want to do it. in the end we do NaNo for our own reasons. very few people will know if you complete or don't complete and, in truth, it doesn't matter there is nothing at stake, except maybe pride. the one thing i do know is that if i were to be serious about writing a novel there are things i wouldn't do that i do with NaNo - for a start i would have a very large chunk of it planned out, so that i know where i am starting and where i want to get to and what sort of things need to happen inbetween, none of this seat of the pants hail mary stuff that i am doing at the moment. however the one thing i would want to take from NaNo is the need to sit down and write a certain amount of words every day and yes editing would play a part. where i think NaNo could be better is in the 'after care', however a lot of that could also be down to me - i could go to more writing events, i could try to hook up with people in the forums to swap work and encouragement. or it could just be a case of the forums being slimmed down after the event to encourage more people to come back and keep posting. i would also like to see another NaNo during the year, but this is because i suspect i need a kick up the backside to get me writing. in conclusion for all its strengths and weaknesses what NaNo does is remind us that it isn't just in sport but it is also in the various creative fields that sometimes you have to just do it.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Madame M — Fri, 11 Nov 2011 04:13:37 -0800

I can craft short stories. It takes me forever. But before I did NaNo on my own last year, I was actually scared of producing that many words. NaNo, my crappy Nano, really taught me that I am capable of things as a writer that I never dreamed possible. If I can produce 42,000 words of dreck (although, it wasn't ALL dreck) in a month, then I could probably produce 50,000 words of pretty-good in a year. And that is a huge thing, to overcome that fear. There's the old story about you set two groups of kids to making pots. The first group is told to produce as many pots as they possibly can. Just go for it and don't worry! And the second group is told to produce the Best Pots they can. And in the end, the Most Pots kids win, because they got lots of practice from making inferior pots, so they gradually came to learn how to produce good pots. The second group, the Best Pots, were so busy trying to make one Great Pot that they didn't have time to practice their craft. I think there's a NaNo lesson there.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Jelsemium — Wed, 30 Nov 2011 10:42:24 -0800

I don't understand why people who think that NaNo is beneath them are participating.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

winter_jasmine — Wed, 30 Nov 2011 13:37:58 -0800

Awesome :) I wrote Mary Sue original fic last year. Best time I ever had writing. Love the story, despite all it's flaws :) NaNo means different things to different people. NaNo needs no 'revision, it just needs people to take from it what they need and enjoy the ride :) Jaz

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

reckless.tenacity — Wed, 30 Nov 2011 14:04:13 -0800

I don't think it's so much that Nano ENCOURAGES you to write crap. Nano simply encourages you to accept two of the most important parts of writing. First, in order to write a novel you must actually, y'know, write it. And secondly, all first drafts are going to be crap anyway, so don't let that stop you. The prompts, adopt an angel, and dares, are silly and ridiculous, but they're a bit like those exercises that encourage a person to try writing with the hand they don't write with. It makes your brain work in ways you don't think your brain can work. Yes, you CAN write crap on purpose, but the thing is, no one on these boards actually wants to do that, or they wouldn't have to set aside a whole month to do it, they would just do it all the time, because they didn't actually care that that's what they're doing. The interesting part is finding out that you can make utter nonsense make sense, and you're a lot smarter and more talented than you realized when you started. I CAN'T ignore all the little spelling mistakes and repeated sentences, so I do make some corrections to my nano as I'm typing it. I'm too type-A not to. But I try to correct myself as I go less often in Nov then I do any other time, and it's easier to do that knowing my novel cannot possibly be the worst piece of crap ever written, and my fellow Nanoers assure me that even when it is, that's okay too, because a single sentence can have an idea I could actually use, later. The point of Nano is not that you're never going to write a good novel anyway, so just write crap. It's that you're never going to write a good novel if you're too scared of writing crap to actually write anything good.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Ignis_Fatuus — Wed, 30 Nov 2011 14:05:24 -0800

Right? I also don't understand why the question the thread title asks has to be answered over and over again in a myriad of different ways. Basically it all boils down to people doing things in a way that is comfortable for them. If you are comfortable with editing as you do, do it. If you're not comfortable, don't. If you're writing this book because you want to make something out of it on the market, knock yourself out, but stop snarling at the people who do this for fun. Man. Chalk this up to obliviousness, but the fact that the literary world is so full of snobs is a real turn-off and it's only in recent years that I've begun to see that. Some people need to chill out and give their egos a rest.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

quietfox — Wed, 30 Nov 2011 14:19:05 -0800

This!

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

quietfox — Wed, 30 Nov 2011 14:25:41 -0800

Just my two cents on it: Nano has made a difference to me in that previously, I was a wannabe novelist. Granted, I'm not published, but really, I don't care at this point. I got some stories out. I like writing straight ahead - no looking back for editing (I do correct spelling & try to have correct grammar as I go) because: 1. I am one of those people that will read a crap sentence and want to smash my novel to bits, then delete everything I've ever written. 2. I see it less as a "how much crap can I write" exercise - although that is fun, to write absurd things, and more of a "but what if..." thing. 3. Plowing forward in my story releases my grip on the control, and sometimes brilliant things happen. The plot just goes somewhere I hadn't intended, characters realize things before they're supposed to, et cetera. Unexpected things happen, and sometimes those things are way better than what I had planned. Granted, I'm breaking a rule here. I finished my novel a week or so ago and am now going back through and adding things. If I take something out (for instance, I made a Friday into a Monday), I have to add something back in. It's an interesting exercise. Does it work for everyone? No. Heck, it wouldn't even work for me for some of my previous nano projects. Do I think I'm better than people who haven't done nanowrimo? Nope. But I know it's helped me feel like a part of something, not just by this community, but also because it's kicked my butt into writing. It's made me remember that I like interesting stories. (Also dark stories, but yes.) And I can tell them. Just not perfectly the first time. And now I'm finally okay with that.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

quietfox — Wed, 30 Nov 2011 14:27:21 -0800

And who knows? One of your sub-plots may end up being more interesting than the story you thought you were writing. This is something you wouldn't know unless you just WENT with it. (Sorry, not meant to be directed at YOU per se!)

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

quietfox — Wed, 30 Nov 2011 14:29:09 -0800

I love those moments when you're typing at light speed wondering "WHERE DID THIS COME FROM?!?!"

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

TaoistFruitbat — Wed, 30 Nov 2011 15:37:29 -0800

[quote=Generalist] Define what you think the NaNo Model is and what aspects would you change? [/quote] I'll define it as "Writing 50,000 word novel AND achieving your writing goal." So for most of us writing banana 50000 times is not our goal, so you won't write it. If your looking for a book that approaches publishable, you will not write fluff. But if your like me and just see NaNoWriMo as a brainstorm/outline for a plot, then fluff all you want, you might get some nice ideas through it. Most people, I think, are more looking to prove to themselves they can write a novel and haveing that novel a jumping board for future editing/rewriting. So they won't mind a bit of fluff or such, as long as it's not excessive. Because as soon as you add in the goal part to the model, it instantly implies Guilt Monkeys™, which will get you if you start straying from your goal. So as long as humans still have consciences, nobody's gonna not be happy. Except the cheaters. And those Nano Rebels. But the rebels are special.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

reckless.tenacity — Wed, 30 Nov 2011 15:49:52 -0800

This is why I'd rather self-publish to be honest. I'd rather pay ridiculous prices to hire an editor and sell my own stuff if it's good enough to be readable, than have to deal with all the "this kind of writing is better than that kind of writing, you are not as good as this author, nobody wants to read about this, this won't sell, please write something more high-concept, that is too high concept and is obviously trash WHO ARE THESE NORMAL PEOPLE WHO THINK THEY CAN WRITE GOOD BOOKS?" nonsense.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Passion4Film — Wed, 30 Nov 2011 16:43:46 -0800

I'm in total agreeance. I only put out my best work - even as I go. I actually get pretty annoyed at the whole "You don't need to write well! No plot, no problem!" philosophy of NaNoWriMo. I think you should always be writing well, or at least to the best of your ability. I'm kind of OCD/anal-retentive (snobbish?) about writing/grammar, etc.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Bruunwald — Wed, 30 Nov 2011 18:49:56 -0800

Well, ranted and got kicked off - at Starbucks, no less! So will summarize by saying I think artificial word count goals are a very, very bad idea in general, but definitely for me. My first draft is usually very, very good, but it means I do take my time writing it. That style works for me, whatever anyone else thinks. I share the sentiment that far too many emails came to me this month, practically demanding that I write total crap, dragged from the bowels of my... well, bowels, and never mind hating myself for it, just so long as I made that artificial goal (I didn't, and I'm glad - I would have quit my novel completely if I had to see that volume of garbage coming from my own pen). I did come away with a greater sense of my ability to consistently write, and write, and stick with it. I am grateful for that. But I think this annual November thing is an incredibly bad idea in general, and if I weren't already an experienced writer, I would be coming away from it with a head full of very bad advice,. So I cannot recommend this site to a new writer, at least during November. So, yeah, good to have the structure for awhile. 40% goodness! And, no, totally bad experience, totally bad advice, artificial environment, and unrealistic goal for anybody with an ounce of genuine love for the craft. 60% badness. Could not be happier it is over.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

liadan_celt — Wed, 30 Nov 2011 20:48:49 -0800

Why are you even here? I just don't understand why someone so against "low quality" writing (aren't all first drafts low quality?) would show up and rant against NaNoWriMo here, in our own forums. I feel really good about what I did this month. Is it publishable? Heck no. Will I ever submit it for publication? Probably not. Am I glad that my story is here, out of my head and onto my harddrive? Yes. NaNoWriMo gives me a venue where I don't have to worry about what I'm writing -- I just write. It gives me the freedom to push through to get at least the bones of a good story into the world where there wasn't one before. I can let go and at least do that much. I can write like mad with the support of other mad writers, typing and scribbling furiously across the globe, all together for one whole month. It works for me. So it doesn't work for you. You don't have to come in here and bring the rest of us down.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Victoria Nonpraeda — Wed, 30 Nov 2011 20:59:34 -0800

Why are you here, if you have such a problem with this? It's so stupid for you to come in here, throw your snobby ideals around and lord your elitism over us all. Please, bite me. I wrote a first draft this month, and someday it will be publishable. You don't like it, kiss my ass.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

reckless.tenacity — Wed, 30 Nov 2011 22:08:05 -0800

[quote=Victoria Nonpraeda] Please, bite me. [/quote] Thank you for this. Yes. Exactly.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Generalist — Wed, 30 Nov 2011 22:09:06 -0800

A lot of big name pro writers suggest writing every day, with a goal of X words. If you are not writing, then you're not a serious writer. You would think of NaNoWriMo as a way for beginning writers, as well as those at other levels of expertise, to develop the habit of writing X words every day. You're doing it in a peer group, you have lots of support and you are trying for a goal that makes a good start at a novel. (It actually qualifies as a novel if you are trying to win a Nebula with science fiction or fantasy.) Some non-full time pro writers talk about doing a thousand words in a day as being a good amount while others mention two thousand words as their goal. When you are trying for 50K, the daily word count is about half way between. It is a doable number, even if you are hand writing like I am. As far as writing 'crap' is concerned, a lot depends upon how much control you have over your Inner Editor. Some people would never get past the first ten pages if they stuck to their perfectionist ways, so they have to have 'permission' to write 'crap.' They will clean it up later when they have all the ideas down. Others, like myself, are pragmatic perfectionists who have reached a compromise with their Inner Editors. My compromise ensures that what I write is pretty good on a sentence by sentence basis. At the same time, I'm not stressing over making sure that everything is perfect when I'm getting the first draft down on paper. I know there are errors of various types, especially errors involving plot, characterization and timing. But those can be corrected when the first draft of the story is finished. I get the feeling that you are a pragmatic perfectionist. The fact that you are currently at 37.5K words tells me that you 'comfortable' word rate is about 1,200 words a day, which is decent enough. If you truly want to hit 50K, you'll either have to increase the number of hours you spend writing or speed up your writing. Of course if you speed up your writing, you may end up lowering the quality. (i.e. writing crap) Of course, what works for you doesn't necessarily work for others. What suggestions would you have for people who have a perfectionist streak that prevents them from getting anywhere unless they have 'permission' to write 'crap' for what is intended as a first draft?

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

reckless.tenacity — Wed, 30 Nov 2011 22:14:23 -0800

*Shudders* I have read that book 8 times. It still freaks me out.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Talison — Wed, 30 Nov 2011 22:55:10 -0800

So, let me get this straight. The fact that you couldn't manage to produce 50,000 words in a single calendar month somehow proves that you are an "experienced writer" with a "genuine love for the craft"? And those of us who have purple bars right now aren't real writers, don't have "an ounce of genuine love for the craft", and have completely wasted our time all month working hard to meet an "unrealistic goal"? Yeah, bite me. I'd tell you where you can shove your sour grapes, but I suspect that the spot I had in mind is already filled with a very large stick.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Trying to Bring Me Down?

AnonymousChild — Thu, 01 Dec 2011 01:27:07 -0800

This is the only forum thread that gave me a headache. It reminds me of one that could have been started by a troll - no offence intended. It also reminds me of a forum I visited that was about rock and roll music. I love rock and roll (put another dime in the jukebox, baby), but in that forum some college elite were talking ad nauseam about the minutia of which exact notes in what songs could be identified as having been the specific moments when rock and roll evolved from the single celled organisms that were pop music songs. I've never studied music, but when my older brothers started plucking out the notes to Little Black Egg and Gloria on their first guitars I knew the difference, and I was just 10. I'm not 'an experienced writer', and I'm slightly older now, but I've always loved to read. I've been known to throw books in the trash to avoid anyone else accidentally reading a book full of crappy writing - and it had nothing to do with the perfection of their editing. I know I can't please everyone, I just do my best as I go, then edit, and then get other, better, editors to help with editing my remaining mistakes - but most of all I try to write for other readers, not other writers. Plus my right brain likes to misspell things and use bad grammar just to mess with my more anal left brain. They have a love-hate relationship like that.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

par5score2 — Thu, 01 Dec 2011 05:28:47 -0800

[quote=RobertLent] The minimum length for a novel isn't clearly defined. The Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America have 40,000 words as the cutoff to be a novel, while other sources go as high as 70,000 words to be a novel. 50,000 words puts it within accepted limits of being a novel. Publishers may want books to be longer, but that is a different issue than whether or not it is long enough to be a novel. Also, since it is a first draft, content can be added during editing, but you can't do anything with it if it doesn't get written in the first place. [/quote] I agree with Robert, get the thing written then edit. I do some quick on the run editing so my flow isn't interrupted. With my health issues I had to push to get the word count right, delighted with a lot of what I wrote, so now I can take my time and re-write and edit properly so ending up with far higher quality over the longer term. My flow produced some really good stuff!!

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

par5score2 — Thu, 01 Dec 2011 05:35:46 -0800

Spot on!!

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

par5score2 — Thu, 01 Dec 2011 05:38:10 -0800

[quote=zanitas] Because for me, when I don't think to much about making it as good as possible I can write faster. Then once November's over, I can take as long as I want to edit and rewrite. [/quote] Again spot on

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

par5score2 — Thu, 01 Dec 2011 05:41:10 -0800

Well done!!! You did it

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

par5score2 — Thu, 01 Dec 2011 06:01:09 -0800

Thank you all for such a fascinating thread. I have just skimmed it now and will go back through it in more detail this month. As said before the emphasis is on quantity, not high, low or medium quality. Flow can be fantastic, and I love it when it happens. My ill health and bad eye made it a struggle as I'd get going and the eye would act up. I have a major long term eye area injury after a cancer op and the muscles often pain and want to close. I'm basically a situationalist/pantser. Set up a basic situation with a few start-off characters then let the activity happen, It mean adding in more characters as my start-offs meet them or the situation requires them so it means adding in some back history that I do within nano and then during any rewrite afterwards. This year I'm so pleased with the way my story developed that I will be editing and doing a little re-writing. It doesn't need much because of the rubbishy bits I wrote in previous years gave me the practice I needed to bring my first draft up to a reasonably high standard. Enjoy Nano at your own level. Again thanks all for a fascinating thread.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

RobertLent — Thu, 01 Dec 2011 08:27:53 -0800

All goals are artificial. A marathon is an artificial goal, so the 100 meter dash.Tell me what's natural about 26 miles and 385 yards? Or 100 meters? Nothing. They are artificial. Yet who scoffs at marathons? The word count goal is to get people to not just think about writing, but actually DO it. Maybe it won't result in something that gets published, but so what? There are thousands or art supply stores, and most of the art that people create won't go into any art galleries. Yet who scoffs at people trying their hand at painting. But when it comes to writing, there are so many people become enraged that the unwashed masses try it. People are encouraged to paint, but writing, I've heard detractors claim that NaNoWriMo is "insulting", and that writing should only be left to the chosen experts, such as we leave brain surgery to the experts. Of course with brain surgery, there are actual objective criteria, but there are not such criteria with writing. With writing, each reader gets to "vote" by buying a book. You can't write a good book unless. you. write. That's the idea of NaNoWriMo. No one is saying that NaNoWriMo is for everyone. But I have a big problem with those who insist it is for no one.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

RobertLent — Thu, 01 Dec 2011 08:43:34 -0800

I assure you, NaNoWriMo worked for me.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Generalist — Thu, 01 Dec 2011 11:31:59 -0800

It worked for me too, and I'm even ignoring the 'suggestion' to 'write crap.' Since I joined NaNoWriMo in May of 2010, I've participated in four official NaNoWriMos and one unofficial one. Word counts have ranged from 52K to 76K, all 'wins.' It has encouraged me to write every day, with a goal of at least one thousand words, or 1,667 words during a NaNoWriMo month. I prefer to hit about 1,800 or more words, conditions permitting. Note that I'm doing this with the 'handicap' of handwriting. A pen, paper and a clipboard gives me a lot more flexibility than a computer, plus they are a lot more durable.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Ramblejack — Thu, 01 Dec 2011 16:53:28 -0800

[quote=par5score2] I'm basically a situationalist/pantser. Set up a basic situation with a few start-off characters then let the activity happen, It mean adding in more characters as my start-offs meet them or the situation requires them so it means adding in some back history that I do within nano and then during any rewrite afterwards. [/quote] Woo HOO! Pantsers, unite! I love NaNo because it takes the seriousness out of novel writing. Sometimes folks are so concerned that people will see them with those 'other' unprofessional writers and think no one will take them seriously. NaNo is a place where everyone is welcome, no matter what their level of writing or dedication to the finished product. There are boards for serious, hard-core word warriors as well as Spam-fic and zombie shoe salesmen. It's all good here, and I love that. For me, it means I don't have to sit and fret over my keyboard, worry that my prose is less than stellar or be concerned that my loose threads are showing. (I've got so many loose threads right now my manuscripts looks like a pom-pom). I'm with all the others that are willing to get stuck, go on a tangent and see where my creative Muse takes me. This year, my characters unexpectedly went to the circus and found the plot I'd been looking for- and it's a healthy, fun plot! If I hadn't been willing to let other plot threads dangle in the the wind, I never would have found this one. It's messy, it's gangly and it needs some pruning and tweaking. But it's my manuscript. NaNo works for me. And it's fun, too!

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

VictorianRomance — Thu, 01 Dec 2011 23:30:19 -0800

I'm with those who also have a life, who took on this challenge anyway to the despair of their patiently suffering families. There are so many opinions as to what is "right" to write. Fifty thousand words--novel, novella, SF, "my agent says", edit as you go along, etc etc. For those who are really concerned with artistic output and publish-ready books, don't forget there are eleven other months. You can do whatever you want, to whatever level of quality. I did for my other book "Sailor on Ice: Tom Crean" out this June, fifteen years in the making. I did "Frozen Heart" for NaNoWriMo 2011 because I knew if I didn't get the danged thing written in a hurry, it would be another fifteen years. The result is a first draft of which I am immensely proud. It has any number of structural flaws, one of the more obvious being that I shifted from past tense to present about 2/3 way through. Oh, and Eleanor was 8 in Chapter 12 and 22 in Chapter 19. I could have gone back and fixed these. I could have made this whole thing right as I went along. Would have missed the deadline, my colorful certificate. But the real loss would have been not watching my characters grow and intrigue and make totally unexpected turns that give the story its compelling drive to (in my humble view) a perfect conclusion, because I was intent on making the s----y first draft perfect as I went along. And sucking the life out of the STORY as I did. In my case, the emphasis on speed actually raised the quality.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Ramblejack — Thu, 01 Dec 2011 23:47:32 -0800

[quote=VictorianRomance] But the real loss would have been not watching my characters grow and intrigue and make totally unexpected turns that give the story its compelling drive to (in my humble view) a perfect conclusion, because I was intent on making the s----y first draft perfect as I went along. And sucking the life out of the STORY as I did. [/quote] >This.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Captain Lonewolf — Tue, 06 Dec 2011 00:33:37 -0800

I've always felt NaNo is about encouraging people to write a book. It's about getting whatever ideas you have on paper and then editing it later into something half decent. Some people can't write without worrying about spelling errors and grammar and things like that and I suppose this puts them off writing altogether. So, in the spirit of trying to get someone to write a book, in only seems reasonable to tell people not to worry about things like that. I guess for those that have difficulty writing a draft in all its messy glory, not deleting a word is very helpful.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Generalist — Tue, 06 Dec 2011 09:30:44 -0800

NaNoWriMo is definitely about this, getting the words down. Sometimes you have to sacrifice quality for quantity, otherwise you never finish anything. The amount of sacrifice made depends upon the person. For some people, the extreme perfectionists, the sacrifice is bigger. For others, those who realize that perfectionism in the first draft is almost impossible, there is little sacrifice. You 'just' have to come up with balance of quality, quantity and time. It reminds me of the sign you can find in some places that do repair work. 'Good, fast and cheap. Pick any two.' With NaNoWriMo, it is 'Quality, quantity and time. Pick any two.' If you want high quality and a high quantity, you may take longer than a month. If you want high quality and getting it done in a month, the quantity will be lower. If you want high quantity and getting it done in a month, the quality will be lower.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Ramblejack — Thu, 08 Dec 2011 08:55:44 -0800

[quote=Generalist] Note that I'm doing this with the 'handicap' of handwriting. A pen, paper and a clipboard gives me a lot more flexibility than a computer, plus they are a lot more durable. [/quote] My new best friend! I like to write with pen and paper as well- I get a lot more words when I can feel them writing, then transfer them to computer later.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Generalist — Thu, 08 Dec 2011 11:41:47 -0800

When I write with pen and paper, I'm usually writing at a speed that allows my Inner Editor to create reasonably readable sentences. They aren't perfect, but I'm satisfied with them. When I transcribe, I may do minor edits for word flow. Spell check is on, so the first electronic draft is more like draft 1.1 in the overall scheme of things.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Risabella — Thu, 08 Dec 2011 14:25:43 -0800

I don't think that nano is telling you to write badly, not at all. The "Quantity over Quality" is just a saying that's supposed to be a motivation. That's what all of nano is-MOTIVATION. The goal is to write an entire novel, whether it's good or not. I don't know about YOU, but I find it much easier to complete a novel while writing in a contest or race such as nano. In my mind, polishing is for later. For many of us, that's the way it is. If I were to edit as I went, it would take me a lifetime to write a single draft, and my story never goes where I planned it to, so there's always major editing needed anyway. It's different for everyone, I know, but for me, the rush of getting a novel finished-whether it's crap or not- is the best way to go, with editing coming later.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Generalist — Thu, 08 Dec 2011 15:55:56 -0800

It is definitely different for everyone. In 'No Plot, No Problem' one of the things that Chris brought up was how editing affected the word count. While I can see how it could affect some people, including my younger self, I've trained my Inner Editor so that it doesn't have a large impact on me. I KNOW that what I write five minutes from now may change what I wrote five days ago, but that doesn't bother my Inner Editor. The Inner Editor knows that what I write five minutes after that may change both what I just wrote AND what I'll have to rewrite. The Inner Editor also knows that what I write tomorrow may make all the previous potential changes obsolete. (Since my Inner Editor is lazy and hates rewriting what has been rewritten, letting things slide until the entire first draft is complete is permitted.) With practice, you learn more about yourself. The more you know about yourself, the better you can tailor the 'rules' to your personal needs. Five rounds of NaNoWriMo since June 2010 has given me a lot of practice. (Four formal, one informal) It has also helped me learn more about myself and writing. Not only is NaNoWriMo about motivation, it is also about learning.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

PollyJ — Thu, 08 Dec 2011 18:42:19 -0800

I think that would be up to you. With a full time job and a family, I don't get to start writing until at least half 7 to 8 at night, and producing 2,000 words a day is hard, without being able to edit, polish etc. on top. I guess it's for people like me to say don't worry too much, just get it done and edit after. If you have the time free, then I'd say it was up to you what you do. :)

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

PollyJ — Thu, 08 Dec 2011 18:44:07 -0800

Totally agree. I love the wild, subconscious writing of it.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Soolkiki — Tue, 13 Dec 2011 20:17:29 -0800

That's pretty much the way that I work. I can kinda ignore my inner editor for a time, and usually for long periods of time if I really wish to. However, I am still careful of what I put down on paper as I write, though I don't linger on a specific spot for too long. No more than five minutes.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

dantheman2 — Fri, 30 Dec 2011 17:20:10 -0800

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Generalist — Tue, 03 Jan 2012 13:38:25 -0800

I seem to recall that the 40K plus specs refer to the categories used for the Nebula awards. You get into a kind of grey zone once you are above 40K. At around 50K you're getting into the range of short novels, the kind Chris Baty looked at when doing the ad hoc research for the original NaNoWriMo. To get more of a feel for the NaNo Model, I picked up a copy of Chris Baty's "No Plot? No Problem!" book and read it a couple of times, cover to cover. It provides a nice, humorous background for this discussion, though I disagree with some of the points it brings up. I can see where it can be quite useful for some people, especially those who have problems getting to 50K. That is where adding fluff, and other 'bad methodologies' can be useful to overcome writer's block and perfectionism. From what I can see, they work under the assumption that forward motion is better than stalling out. You at least get something that resembles a novel rather than a short story by getting to 50K. (Note that variations of many of the 'bad methodologies' are suggested by other people in other disciplines as ways of getting the creative engines running.) At the same time, for other people, the 'bad methodologies' are not needed because we can reach 50K or higher IF we focus on the deadline. We have overcome many of the problems that Chris Baty mentioned in "No Plot? No Problem!" and use NaNoWriMo as an 'excuse' to write 50K or more in a month. I don't see that the NaNo Model is overdue for revision IF NaNoWriMo writers understand that most novels are more than 50K long, sometimes much more. Those who need the 'bad methodologies' to reach 50K are learning the craft. Those who avoid them are not likely going to stop at 50K.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Deps — Wed, 04 Jan 2012 08:02:52 -0800

As far as arguments about length are concerned I don't think anyone here is rushing out with a 50k book and saying to the publisher's 'it's a novel because NaNo says it is'. Also I seem to recall reading in the rules somewhere that 50k is a novella length. I always saw NaNo as a kickoff point really. Last year I completed my novel in it - 93k. This year I got to 50k and at early Jan I'm at 80k looking at 100k before it's done. If I was doing it without NaNo I'd be at 20k most. I can't see NaNo needing revision because it works for so many people. 50k is achievable. Turn it into 80k or more and many people will see it as hopeless. Just my opinion anyway.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Generalist — Wed, 04 Jan 2012 12:44:51 -0800

[quote=Deps] I can't see NaNo needing revision because it works for so many people. 50k is achievable. Turn it into 80k or more and many people will see it as hopeless. [/quote] This needs to be emphasized. 50K is achievable. 80K or more would be discouragingly hopeless for many people. (Unfortunately, in any large population, you are bound to have a small percentage that will rush out with a 50K NaNoWriMo draft and tell a publisher that it IS a novel because NaNo says it is so. Odds are they won't be looking at this forum thread. And odds are that the publishers will tell others of their experience and that tale will be exaggerated.)

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Deps — Sun, 08 Jan 2012 14:21:57 -0800

I agree. Reading through this I am seeing a lot of posts of 'well I do my absolute best work at all times'. Then it's great that you are able to do that. Now imagine that you are editing so much and trying to find 'that' word for so long that you never get the words on the page. That's how it is for a lot of people and that's why NaNo works. I personally do NaNo in November in Australia. That means I am juggling final assessments and university exams as well as working to pay my rent. That usually leaves me about an hour a day to write. During that time I do not add fluff, I have a well written plan and I use good grammar and spelling. I have a reasonable word goal so I sit down and I pound out the words without obsessing over whether it is appropriate to say 'said' three lines in a row. The quality issue is a guideline not a hard and fast rule. If it is offensive to someone taking part in NaNo then what I can basically summarise that as is that NaNo is not right for them. It's not for NaNo to change the formula that works for so many people but for you to go and find somewhere with a formula that works for you.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

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Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

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Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

pseraphina — Sun, 08 Apr 2012 05:45:06 -0700

This is my first time doing nanowrimo and frankly, I may not do it. I agree- I've written a few short stories before and started some novels, and every time felt like, why not write it well? Writing should not be a race, it comes from the heart and there shouldn't be a time limit. Why put down a bunch of crap on a piece of paper just so you can say that you've written a novel? Writing is about the joy in the process, not about holding your book (however bad it may be) in your hot little hands.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

writethewrong — Wed, 11 Apr 2012 14:29:07 -0700

Exactly!

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

cursive — Sat, 14 Apr 2012 06:39:54 -0700

It's not about quality or lack of, I don't think. It's about letting your inhibitions go, and for many people (like me) that's an insurmountable obstacle.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

obsidian-amethyst — Sun, 13 May 2012 08:38:14 -0700

I am sure that this has already been said but those books on the shelves of bookshops? Well, they are finished, polished final drafts that have probably been reviewed many, many times. NaNo lets you try something out with one month's commitment (rather than years and years) so writers can give something different a go - or just try and get that novel from their brains to paper. A quote I like is 'writing is re-writing'. It is extremely unlikely that the first draft will be ready for publication but that's ok. It's a first draft - an exploration of ideas without restrictions. The emphasis, for me, is to be free to write whatever. This year, I'll admit, I forgot about Nano. I've been kicking myself since December. However, Nano has taught me that I can write and I enjoy it - but rewriting is ultimately what authors do. I'll be back in November and I might even go to Camp Nano because, like others have found, it's fun and worthwhile.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Generalist — Wed, 16 May 2012 10:59:24 -0700

You might want to read Chris Baty's "No Plot? No Problem!" book to get a feel for the NaNoWriMo philosophy. It explains the concepts behind 'writing crap' and having a deadline and even the idea of NOT going back to rewrite things. They are often necessary actions that help people get past the barriers that face the 'some day' novelist. The 'some day' novelist is the person that says 'some day I'll write a novel' but never gets past that statement. The 'some day' novelist is the person that starts a novel but never gets past the first few pages or chapters because it doesn't have a deadline. The 'some day' novelist is the person that starts a novel but never gets past the first couple of chapters because they are constantly rewriting them. That said, the main purpose of NaNoWriMo is to write a first draft. Sometimes called the 'crap' draft, the first draft is not intended to be perfect. You want to get things down on paper, physical or digital, so you can go back and edit it. Doing extensive edits before you complete the first draft can be a major drain on the creative process, especially if you are editing the edit that you edited five or six times before. You can control the quality of the 'crap' you put into the first draft. For me, what I write has to sound good and make sense on a sentence by sentence and paragraph by paragraph basis. While it slows me down, relatively speaking, I'm satisfied with the results. (I do NaNoWriMo by hand, and transcribe it. I have hit 76K words in a month.) I know that there are logic and content errors in the first draft, because the story evolves over time. But I don't worry about them when creating the first draft because some of the errors I detect when I'm a quarter of the way through may not be errors at the half way mark and may turn out to be a different type of error by the time I finish the draft.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

CaraElizaveta — Sat, 19 May 2012 18:25:39 -0700

[quote=obsidian-amethyst] I am sure that this has already been said but those books on the shelves of bookshops? Well, they are finished, polished final drafts that have probably been reviewed many, many times. [/quote] And some of them are still crap. Point being, bashing something out in a short period of time does not ensure it will be absolute crap with no value whatsoever, and reworking something a dozen times, having it sent to an editor, and getting it published in hardback does not ensure it's quality. I am thinking of a particular author that has written about a million books and a "how to get published" book. I'd be embarrassed to turn out a book that was the quality of most of his. There is no magic formula. Time does not guarantee quality. Everyone, IMO, should do their best with the method that works for them. You don't have to do it. NaNo will not be for everyone. But it gives a lot of people permission to write who otherwise feel that they just can't do it. I can't wait to get started in June.

Re: Why the Emphasis on Low Quality?

Emilypemily — Thu, 24 May 2012 15:20:31 -0700

The permission to write badly can be very helpful for perfectionists like me. The desire to write something not only readable but good quality can be debilitating, mentally blocking you from writing reams of decent stuff - even though you know no one is going to read it anyway! Even as an experienced writer already, I found writing a NaNo novel taught me how to get a first draft down quicker and with a lot less stress. I re-read through that first draft and I see huge plot holes and bad writing style, but there are also plenty of gems to be found, little scenes and images that were unplanned and just occurred to me as I was steaming through the word count. Those gems might not have happened if I'd stopped to agonise over every word. Word-padding is not necessarily bad writing. I don't do pointless tangential events in my drafts. But I frequently use a 'word salad' of adjectives and adverbs where normally you would just pick one. Instead of pausing to dither over which word is the right one, I scribble down a few similar words that occur to me. This bumps up the word count, but in a useful way. When I come to edit, I have a lot of spare words to choose from, words that occurred to me at the time of writing, but which might not otherwise have occurred to me during the editing stage.