Atheists and Non-Christians, help! http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844 TheTabster This question works if you are completely anti-Christian, or just don't believe it -- but, hypothetically, what kinds of comments or questions might make you reconsider the existence of God in a situation where everything you believed had already been shaken? Again, it's hypothetical, as I'm just looking for some good ideas on how to get him thinking about things. I'm doing a modern day retelling of the story of Paul (who, if you don't know, was name Saul before and was a persecutor of Christians until he had an encounter with Jesus, then with a prophet and had his foundations shaken and became one of the most outspoken Christians of his time). I'm looking for ideas that would be believable, things that would get him really thinking about things. Thanks! Thu, 27 Oct 2011 14:51:01 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_251152 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_251152 Spence Sorry, just a clarification-- Are you looking for SITUATIONS that might make a person re-think that position (e.g., a miracle)? Or are you looking for THOUGHT PROCESSES that might lead a person to re-think that position (e.g., specific arguments)? Thu, 27 Oct 2011 15:04:22 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_251356 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_251356 Cadaverine Nothing. I believe YHWH, god of the Jews, exists - just not that he's the only god ;-) Perhaps it would help you to consider other deities, and how you might be convinced of their existence. Thu, 27 Oct 2011 19:26:44 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_255115 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_255115 esfilce For me it was logic. God can't be all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-loving if the Bible is going to be taken into consideration. Logically, it just doesn't work. Thus, if God can't be all these things, then He is not God and thus, God does not exist. Also think if the parable of the rock. Either God cannot create a rock He cannot lift and if He can do that, then He cannot be all-powerful if He can't lift it. Thu, 27 Oct 2011 19:43:46 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_255340 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_255340 iamstalkingu You called? Since I don't believe in God (or any other higher being, for that matter) and so far nothing that I've heard people say about God has really changed my point on this, I'd have to say that I'm not completely sure. Really the whole concept of Christianity is sort of outdated to me, since it basically is used to prove phenomena like how the animals got here, how we came to be, and how the world was created. Things that we can prove using science today. But I have to say things that make me doubt for a second about it are things that scientifically try to prove God. But as I've told many friends, even if God showed up and spoke to me in person I wouldn't believe in him. He doesn't exist to me. Also, using actual bible verses in my face will confuse me up and get me thinking. But not for long. Thu, 27 Oct 2011 21:22:45 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_256600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_256600 LDRobwell There is no argument that would get me to reconsider, however, if christians suddenly started living up to and understanding Jesus's purpose, if they honestly seemed to be better, smarter, kinder, more compassionate and healthier, if they showed unconditional love fgfor all of "gods" creations I just might find some validity in their concept. Fri, 28 Oct 2011 01:54:34 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_259413 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_259413 daqu Personally, if God himself came down from heaven and told me to my face that he was real, I would say that's fantastic and good for you, but I still wouldn't be a Christian. As far as what kinds of things would make me question my nonbelief in God…well, I've questioned that belief many times. Usually it's because of those "everything happens for a reason" situations where something bad happens, but then I see down the line how it really worked out for the best. Or like inexplicable miracles. Like, I know someone who claims that he smoked a lot when he was younger, and he tried and tried everything he could to quit. And nothing worked. Then one day he woke up and cigarettes made him feel sick. I didn't actually know him when it happened, but I'm very good friends with both him and his wife, and they both claim it's true, and they're not exactly the kind of people who would lie to prove a point like that. Fri, 28 Oct 2011 13:06:45 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_266018 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_266018 irrevenant 1. My problem personally has always been believability: 1a. The Bible has major believability issues of fact (God creating different languages so people couldn't build a tower that reached heaven, rabbits that chew the cud, etc). I won't rehash the specifics but there are numerous cases where a very generous reading of the Bible is required for it to be anything other than outright wrong. 1b. If the Bible IS true, then it's morally reprehensible. God killing babies for the sins of their fathers, ordering the Israelites to conquer neighbouring tribes and kill their women and children etc. It could be unpalatable AND true, of course, but I'd still need to reconcile that with a God that is supposedly infinitely good before I could believe. 1c. It seems far more plausible that the Israelites decided they were God's chosen people rather than believing that God created the entire universe then played favourites with a small middle eastern tribe to the expense of everyone else. (ASIDE: The Baha'i actually make a decent stab at explaining all this with the whole "progressive revelation" thing. As does Wicca with its multi-faceted view of the godhead). 2. If the Bible is not a reliable and credible source of truth, then what is the reason to believe in Christianity? Let's say I had an experience that inclined me believe in the existence of god. Is there any reason to believe in the Christian version in particular? Not that I can see. (So don't try any of that Pascall's Wager crap on me, 'k? :P) One thing that disinclines me to accept Christianity as the one true way is that even different types of Christian don't seem to be able to agree on what that true way is (It gets worse if you expand to include all the Abrahamic faiths). As above, I'd be more inclined to believe something like Wicca or Baha'i that explains how people still hold such contradictory ideas about a god who is real and communicating with humanity. You said "when everything I believed has already been shaken". This suggests you're following a natural Christian assumption - that Christianity is true by default. That if I feel and believe that God exists, then Christianity is a given. You're still only halfway there - you need to back up that YOUR version of God version of God exists. 3. Soooo, in a nutshell, if you want me to convert to Christianity you need to (a) give me credible truths I should believe about Jesus and (b) you need to support it with something other than the Bible. If it's literally a modern day retelling of Saul remember that Saul was not converted by arguments but by directly experiencing the divine presence of Jesus. That would probably work for me, too. :P [Post edited by admin at the request of poster 11/29/2011.] Sun, 30 Oct 2011 00:20:22 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_291880 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_291880 lovechris So, the MC, a woman, absolutely does not believe in anything. This is all there is. Then she has a terrible, roll over crash, is trapped in her car, teetering on a cliff, and unintentionally cries out "oh my God", and somehow the car miraculously teeters backwards, and she is freed. THEN... the paramedic who responds is her son she gave up for adoption. Sun, 30 Oct 2011 07:54:09 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_295499 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_295499 NateDavis1798 I was raised a Christian, but I could never reconcile the things that Jesus said with the way I see the world actually working. Turning the other cheek and loving my enemy just doesn't do it for me; I study history pretty seriously, and in the immortal words of George Carlin, "Pacifism is a nice idea, but it can get you killed." I also found it kind of annoying when people would say, "Oh, it must be God's will" in response to something terrible happening, and seem to be completely comfortable with that fact. That just doesn't strike me as a good position for a virtuous human being to make. It all kind of coalesced when I began moving away from Christianity and started reading Crowley; the Master Therion calls Jehovah "The Slave God." That gave a name to the thing that had been bugging me all this time. Turning the other cheek and loving your enemy isn't what a man does, it's what a slave does. Judaism was invented by masters to be believed by slaves, and Christianity comes right out of Judaism. And then Odin came a-callin', and the rest is history. :) As has been said above, I'm open to the possibility of YHVH existing, I just don't think he's the only one, or the most powerful. He's certainly not the one for me. To his friend a man a friend shall prove, And gifts with gifts requite, But men should mocking with mockery answer And fraud with falsehood meet. He must early go forth who fain the blood Or the goods of another would get; The wolf that lies idle will win little meat Or the sleeping man success. :) Sun, 30 Oct 2011 21:37:13 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_311065 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_311065 NateDavis1798 That reminds me of a "Heathen urban legend" that one of my Hrafn-Bjorn friends told me: In Florida, the local KKK got wind that there was going to be a big Pagan festival in their town, so they got all set up to burn a cross next to the parade field. At nightfall, a bunch of Heathens show up. One of them walks up to the guy in charge of the Klan rally and says, "Buddy, if that cross goes up, you're getting nailed to it. I've got a hammer right here." Sun, 30 Oct 2011 23:06:49 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_313248 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_313248 Apiecalypse I can't personally think of anything (I've been a hard atheist as long as I can remember), and I don't have much in the way of 'spirituality'. Thus, I'd say make your character someone who is quite moral and open to feelings of general spirituality even if he's non-Christian, so he's already dipping his toes in the pool. Mon, 31 Oct 2011 22:46:00 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_340895 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_340895 Tolaura Bookchild For me to pick up any religion Christian or not, I would need to feel like the people inviting me were caring and supportive. The idea mentioned earlier of they brought community and then ideaology. A sense that these people regardless of their beliefs are good people trying to support me. Specific arguments I'm not so sure about, but feelings I am. If my closest friend says, "I went to this river and there was this dude and suddenly I'm not scared of the world anymore." I might go check out that dude for more information. Do have characters that 'witness' is a more personal kind of way? As you're building Saul's character what's his goals, his fears, what is he looking for exactly that he finds when he meets god? How does he know when meets Christ? He may not know but you as the author should have a broad idea. Wed, 14 Dec 2011 13:04:21 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_972714 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_972714 bandiceet For the life of me I just can not think off hand who said "When you understand why you don't believe in someone elses God, then you will understand why I don't believe in yours." Like others have said, merely sprouting off verses will not inspire me. Allow me to play this way, both the old and new testament has a lot of supposedly historical events (If you look past the walking on water/water into wine side of things for the moment), so with some decent research in archaeology, and other areas, they should match up. Unfortunately more of those events don't match up than they do. Granted, recorded keeping a couple thousand years ago isn't up to the standard it is now, and of course things simply don't last that long, but some of the historical events supposedly reported in the bible are big enough (If you excuse the phrase - on a biblical scale) that somewhere, some one would have recorded. If it weren't the official kings records, then may be even a court page may have entered into some sort of tally or what ever.... Wed, 28 Dec 2011 05:51:37 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_1006227 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_1006227 Writing_Ninja For what it's worth, from my point of view. I just wanted to point out that If you are doing a Saul/Paul retelling, Paul really believed he was serving God. Just because someone isn't Christian doesn't mean that they believe in a different God. Once Paul realized that he was going against God's son, Jesus, he fixed his ways. It was just coming to a realization of the error of his ways. I'm a Christian and I know you said advice doesn't work unless you are an atheists/nonbeliever. But I want to point out that personality and pattern of thought takes a huge part in it. In Paul's case, he wanted to serve God, he was just mistaken. I was a missionary and from what I have seen, it usually ties in with how open you are to new ideas and having a deep need met by the religion. Sun, 01 Jan 2012 20:57:00 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_1019768 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_1019768 Darkfeather21 You'd have some serious trouble even finding a situation that would even be able to rattle my faith, much less shake it to the ground. [quote=NateDavis1798] If you punch a Wiccan in the face, he'll lie on the ground bleeding and tell you that the Universe is going to get you back three times worse. [/quote] Also, I agree with the matrix avatar dude. Anybody punches this witch in the face, they will find themselves running from me. Not that that does much good. I'm an archer. Mon, 09 Jan 2012 09:57:16 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_1044133 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_1044133 Earthsick Even though this thread is already old, I'd like to add something. As for me, a total non-believer, there is nothing that could shake this view of mine. Especially since I'm currently reading something about the celts that includes their religion and how things were in their time, and so on. And, you know, a lot of things from the old religions got taken on by christianity. For example, the god "Lug" (or Lugus) got transformed in one of the christian angels. Michael, if I remember correctly. The goddess Brigite was transformed in some other christian character with the same name, and so on. Even the concept about the 'three' being a special number made it into christianity. Also, since I read that the old religions mostly had their gods in pairs of female and male gods I can't take christianity serious anymore. Not that I did much before. It is just weird to me that even now people think that a male god would create all life. If you god was female, that would make more sense in itself. But meh, me rambling about religious stuff. I know it's no use anyway talking about this here. Just saying that nothing could shake my view. Also, @ Darkfeather21, damn, I envy you for your achery skills. I'm far to undermotivated to ever learn an awesome sport like that. :'D (Or doing any sports at all.) Fri, 13 Jan 2012 05:44:24 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_1055458 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_1055458 mattkinsi [quote=TheTabster] This question works if you are completely anti-Christian, or just don't believe it -- but, hypothetically, what kinds of comments or questions might make you reconsider the existence of God in a situation where everything you believed had already been shaken? [/quote] The key here, to me, is the everything you previously believed shaken. This happened to my grandmother. In about a span of a year and a half, her mother, husband, and son (my dad) all died. She was broken. It so happened that some Jehovah's Witnesses came knocking and gave her a community when she suddenly had none. The beliefs followed from the community and kindness, not the other way around. Fri, 28 Oct 2011 12:53:10 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_265777 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_265777 TheTabster Specific arguments -- things that people could say to you that would kind of make you go 'huh' and rethink the position. Thu, 27 Oct 2011 15:08:19 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_251422 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_251422 Spence Gotcha! OK, well, as a nonbeliever, I obviously don't know of any specific arguments that I think are COMPLETELY convincing (otherwise, I wouldn't be a nonbeliever!). BUT I'm most sympathetic to appeals to "transcendent" or "spiritual" (etc etc) feelings--arguments that talk about the special way people often feel in church, or out in nature or in community with other people. Those are feelings anyone--believer or nonbeliever--can relate to, so they're a good place to start, maybe? Also, you might want to just watch a few debates re: God's Existence on YouTube. Those'll have a lot of specific arguments that presumably some people have found convincing. Good luck! Thu, 27 Oct 2011 15:16:24 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_251567 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_251567 Stoloniferous Thyere is no argument I've heard yet that has made me rethink my position. And it's not that I'm failing to consider the arguments, or just disregarding them. I love a good rational argument, and I love it when my conclusions are proven wrong. But nothing has made me go "huh" for long. Therefore I am still an agnostic atheist. Mon, 31 Oct 2011 17:04:17 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_332640 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_332640 TheTabster Thanks! Those suggestions will definitely help :) And I will check out the videos. Thu, 27 Oct 2011 15:47:15 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_252066 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_252066 TheTabster I never thought of it that way... definitely something to sit and ponder about -- thanks :D Out of curiousity, are there any arguments that would make you consider that there is only one God (as that would help with this too :) ) Fri, 28 Oct 2011 08:48:52 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_262216 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_262216 Cadaverine <a href="http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&amp;id=2292" rel="nofollow">This comic</a> always summed those things up for me ^^ Thu, 27 Oct 2011 20:00:53 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_255574 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_255574 TheTabster Thanks! My next thread is actually about WHY you don't believe in God, so this helps again :) Fri, 28 Oct 2011 08:39:37 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_262112 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_262112 Itzika I subscribe to the Runaways answer to the rock debate, despite it making no logical sense: Yes, God could create a rock He couldn't lift. And then He would lift it anyway. :) Mon, 19 Dec 2011 10:40:32 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_984679 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_984679 esfilce Hahaha I love it! Thu, 27 Oct 2011 20:14:51 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_255764 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_255764 TheTabster Bah, it's blocked at my work, but I want to see it. I'll have to check it out at home Fri, 28 Oct 2011 08:39:56 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_262117 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_262117 fitz LOL!!! Great comic. Sun, 30 Oct 2011 20:00:39 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_308669 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_308669 TheTabster So using Bible verses could be good to at least get some momentary thinking going on :). Thanks! I'd love to use the Scientific part, but I don't think I have the time to do the research necessary for that. I know of a few scientific finds that have leaned more towards proving God, but I don't know them in depth enough to utilize them. Still, it's something to consider for the rewrite down the line :) Fri, 28 Oct 2011 08:38:32 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_262100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_262100 prairiecrow See, whereas all someone quoting Bible verses at me does to me (personally) is to annoy me and make me MORE resistant to the arguments they're trying to make. It all depends on the individual, I suppose. Fri, 28 Oct 2011 09:47:32 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_262988 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_262988 Cadaverine There's a quote - and I forget who it's by, some saint or other - that says "Preach the gospel every day, and when necessary, use words". Personally I am inspired by people such as Gene Robinson who really do seem to have some great spirituality to them. Fri, 28 Oct 2011 03:25:18 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_259942 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_259942 TheTabster Oddly enough I've been called a Hippy by many Christians for stating that I feel that is the way we should be living. I have a couple key characters planned who will be like that, so it's nice to hear that something like that would be a positive thing :) Thanks! Fri, 28 Oct 2011 08:33:43 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_262045 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_262045 TheTabster That's one of the quotes that I have used as my mantra as a Christian -- I heard it back when I was in high school (and was doing a poor job of being a Christian) and it stopped me in my tracks. I have a lot of Christians who do often put me down for not actually going out of my way to 'preach' and verbally witness to people, but I really do believe that the words mean nothing if I'm not actually living them. Fri, 28 Oct 2011 07:58:21 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_261690 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_261690 LDRobwell [quote=TheTabster] Oddly enough I've been called a Hippy by many Christians for stating that I feel that is the way we should be living. I have a couple key characters planned who will be like that, so it's nice to hear that something like that would be a positive thing :) Thanks! [/quote] I used to have this bootlegged tape of a psychedelic band from the 60s that spelled out in bible verse s just how much of a hippy jesus was. I liked it a lot. Honestly, I think if you take the bible as an attempt to be factual but failing, I think it's obvious that jesus was studying buddhism. Sat, 29 Oct 2011 00:57:50 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_276374 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_276374 Cadaverine That seems unlikely. I would have to lose my faith and gain a new one at the same time - become an atheist and a theist again in one swoop. While I'm sure all religious people have had their periods of doubt and I am no exception, and in such a state when presented with a cunning argument it's possible I'd lose my faith - I don't see myself being convinced of one god at the same time. Polytheism makes more logical sense to me. Henotheism? sure, but not monotheism. Particularly not the monotheism presented in Christianity, which just does not compute for me and never has. There are too many logical problems and ethical issues I have with the concept of salvation, particularly when it involves a god both omnipotent and omnibenevolent. Besides, I tend to side with Marcion insomuch as the god of the NT does not seem to resemble that of the OT for me. Fri, 28 Oct 2011 10:32:12 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_263631 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_263631 TheTabster Would it depend on the ways/reasons they were quoting the Bible to you as well? I mean, if it was in a discussion where the Bible verse actually had context, would it still give you the same reaction, or would you be more willing to consider it in that situation? Fri, 28 Oct 2011 10:25:16 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_263525 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_263525 prairiecrow [quote=TheTabster] Would it depend on the ways/reasons they were quoting the Bible to you as well? I mean, if it was in a discussion where the Bible verse actually had context, would it still give you the same reaction, or would you be more willing to consider it in that situation? [/quote] It would depend, yes. If we were discussing Biblical history or Christianity, of course the introduction of Bible verses into the conversation would be appropriate -- after all, that's the topic under discussion. However, when Christians throw Bible verses at me in an attempt to convert me it rubs me the wrong way because the assumption seems to be that of COURSE the Bible verses are SO MUCH MORE TRUE than, say, the liturgy of my own religion (which I certainly don't go around quoting at them); the unconscious superiority complex that implies is very unattractive to me. My usual response to such attempts is: "You know, quoting the Bible at me is about as effective as quoting lines from a Batman comic. Your holy book is not an authoritative source in my opinion. Can you come up with another sort of argument to get your point across?" Sat, 29 Oct 2011 07:50:06 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_279229 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_279229 TheTabster Thanks for the additional input :) Mon, 31 Oct 2011 12:24:54 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_325491 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_325491 TheTabster So kind of an actions first, leading to belief later type scenario? Fri, 28 Oct 2011 13:21:18 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_266285 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_266285 esfilce I don't think enough people really stop and really think about the stories in the Bible. Like really, when it comes down to it, God was evil and sadistic (hello, child abuse? genocide? petty jealousy? hanging out and betting on innocent people with the Devil?) and Jesus? Well, Jesus was really a bit of a dick with a temper problem (and definitely not a family person, so it always cracks me up when I hear Christians going off about WELL JESUS LOVES FAMILIES AND BLAH BLAH). Fri, 28 Oct 2011 17:08:34 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_270040 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_270040 Backbones I think this is what happens when you just gloss over the stories in the bible with an eye toward hostility rather than actually stopping to really think about the content. :) Sat, 29 Oct 2011 01:30:32 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_276678 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_276678 throughasplendour It's actually what happens when you read what's written in the bible. Yahweh in the old testament was a psycho who fucked around killing people at will for no reason. He was a tribal god, created for an ancient tribe in a time before our morals ever existed. It's to be expected. And from that, my answer: God would have to explain to me (personally, face to face) everything in the bible (as mentioned above), why every evil in the world exists, and why he's inflicting all this on his beloved children, including why his representative on earth was allowed to cover up the rape of countless children without being struck by lightning. Sat, 29 Oct 2011 22:00:54 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_289734 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_289734 TheTabster Thanks for answering my extra questions :) Mon, 31 Oct 2011 12:25:54 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_325515 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_325515 Backbones I read the Bible. Often; it's the focus of my academic studies. "Yahweh is a psycho" is what you come away with if you read the Bible literally and don't take more than a half second to think about it. :) Sun, 30 Oct 2011 19:34:10 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_308061 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_308061 irrevenant (The two URLs in the above are there in error - I've reported the post and hopefully they'll be edited out. I REALLY could use an "Edit" button. XD) Sun, 30 Oct 2011 00:22:37 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_291905 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_291905 TheTabster Thanks! And don't worry, it's not the arguments I intend to have as the cause of his conversion, they're just there to kind of spurr him in the right direction. The actual catalyst will be a personal experience of meeting Jesus. :) Thank you for all your feedback -- your points were all awesome and much appreciated. :) Mon, 31 Oct 2011 12:29:12 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_325605 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_325605 TheTabster Also, just to point out, by stating 'when everything you believed has already been shaken', I wasn't meaning it to come across as the assumption that Christianity was the right way by default; what I meant was that if whatever you believed in had been completely shaken to bits, is there something that would make you consider the Christian faith? The same as I would state to Christians if everything they believed was shaken to bits, what would convince them there was no God.... it wasn't meant as a direct statement of one being right over the other :) Mon, 31 Oct 2011 12:31:08 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_325660 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_325660 Cadaverine Trouble is, you can say "oh my God" and not know which one it was that helped you out ;-) Sun, 30 Oct 2011 08:53:18 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_296172 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_296172 NateDavis1798 Actually, I come away with that feeling far more profoundly when I do really sit down and thick about them. He's not just a psycho, he's also a bully. Sun, 30 Oct 2011 21:28:27 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_310854 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_310854 NateDavis1798 Motivated double-post ftw: Makes me think of a joke that my fiance told me the other day: If you punch a Christian in the face, he'll lie on the ground bleeding while he forgives you. If you punch a Wiccan in the face, he'll lie on the ground bleeding and tell you that the Universe is going to get you back three times worse. If you punch a Heathen in the face, you'll be the one on the ground bleeding because you were dumb enough to punch a Heathen in the face. Sun, 30 Oct 2011 21:40:10 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_311136 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_311136 Cadaverine Well, if you punched me in the face I'd probably try to scratch you, or something, because I have small ineffectual girl-fists and if I punched you you'd probably laugh at me. But I also have long nasty girl-nails, so I use the arsenal at my disposal. (However, I have never been punched in the face. For all I anticipate being angry and trying to strike back, it's quite possible I would just sit down and cry.) I'm getting off-topic, but I've always loved that old anecdote about the fundamentalist group who hears about this Pagan meeting in the woods, pictures lots of young women dancing around in the altogether and decides to go put the fear of god into them. They arrive, burst into the clearing and discover a Heathen kindred, fully armed. Sun, 30 Oct 2011 22:14:13 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_312074 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_312074 prairiecrow [quote=NateDavis1798] If you punch a Wiccan in the face, he'll lie on the ground bleeding and tell you that the Universe is going to get you back three times worse. [/quote] Not THIS Wiccan, bucko. :) I firmly believe in being an active agent of karma. If you punch me in the face, you'd better be prepared to be taught a lesson in cause and effect that you won't soon forget. Mon, 31 Oct 2011 07:16:21 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_319001 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_319001 TheTabster See, this would be a part of being a Christian that I fail in. If you punched me in the face, you would likely be met immediately with my right hook, a sucker-punch, or a lovely little uppercut. That I can't help... it's like a programmed reaction for me. Don't think, just hit. Mon, 31 Oct 2011 07:27:16 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_319140 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_319140 Itzika Two things: One, if you hit me, I will hit back. Loving you as my neighbor doesn't (IMO) preclude me defending myself. Two, "turn the other cheek" was actually a defense at the time. The word for "hit" used in the chapter referred to a backhanded slap, which was a hit used on inferiors. If you turned the other cheek, they would have to hit you with the palm of their hand (the left hand was only used for filthy tasks), which was a strike used among equals. Actually, all those "take it" verses are defensive. Actually, I have a third thing: God gave us free will. So blaming everything bad on God is a cop-out. If someone crashes their car into you, that's on them, not God. I will never understand the "Because God wills it" explanation. Mon, 19 Dec 2011 10:54:03 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_984718 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_984718 NateDavis1798 Hooah. :) Mon, 31 Oct 2011 09:36:19 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_321365 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_321365 NateDavis1798 But that's not a bad thing! That's a GOOD thing!! Mon, 31 Oct 2011 09:35:53 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_321357 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_321357 TheTabster Lol, according to some folk, perhaps ;) Mon, 31 Oct 2011 12:38:11 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_325849 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_325849 TheTabster Thanks :) Mon, 31 Oct 2011 20:04:47 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_337229 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_337229 Stoloniferous you're welcome :) Tue, 01 Nov 2011 14:29:41 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_359299 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_359299 Phoenix That's precisely the problem with a literal reading of quite a lot of the Old Testament and most of the New--there are a *lot* of records surviving from the periods in question, and they simply don't corroborate many of the Biblical accounts. Viewed as a collection of historical documents, the Bible is not especially reliable, though it does offer some interesting insights into some periods in a very volatile region. That doesn't mean, of course, that the Bible doesn't work as inspirational fiction or fictionalized narrative or metaphor--clearly it does for many people. As a tool for conversion, though, in a modern setting...I don't see it working well. If you look at the religions experiencing rapid growth currently you might find that what speaks to the modern mind is more likely to be either "futuristic" as in Jedi teachings or water-brotherhood, or "Old" as in various (neo-)pagan traditions. Wed, 28 Dec 2011 17:30:05 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_1007277 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_1007277 bandiceet I have no trouble with people having faith, but to try force others to follow that faith is something else. If people take solace from the bible (or any religious text) - in all their forms - then all is well and good, but to turn and say "All in the bible is true..." there lays my problem. Collaboration would be my key. If person A says "XYZ" happened but person B said "LMN" happened, who is the one to believe? Especially when they barely agree on what actually happened.... Fri, 30 Dec 2011 07:32:43 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_1011138 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/12844?page=1#forum_thread_comment_1011138