So you don't believe in God, or the 'Christian' version of God... http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337 TheTabster Why? I need help in formulating a strong and valid reason my MC would not believe in God and would in fact be very anti-Christian. Thanks :) Fri, 28 Oct 2011 08:52:11 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_262271 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_262271 Lex Scriven Because I've always believed in other deities, even when I was a perfect Christian child. Because a lot of Christians preach hatred and intolerance and anti-science and I can't cope with being identified with people who would embarrass me. Fri, 28 Oct 2011 09:28:34 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_262735 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_262735 prairiecrow Your MC might simply never have felt a Divine presence, and thus would have no intuitive reason to believe in one (in much the same way that most people don't believe in unicorns or leprechauns). As for being anti-Christian... oh Lordy, where do I start? Christianity has been responsible for some truly awful periods in human history (the Crusades, the Inquisition, the way that even today Christians tend to quarrel viciously among themselves) and individual Christians, like the Westboro Baptist Church and those idiots who leave religious tracts disguised as $10 bills on tables for underpaid waiters and waitresses to find, can be spectacularly cruel, nonsensical and ignorant (just look at the "good" Christian kids who drive gay kids to suicide on a semi-regular basis). Add that to the way some Christians launch into a screaming "UR GOIN TO HELLLLL!" sermon when confronted with anything even vaguely dissimilar to their own opinions and you'll see why some people paint all Christians with the same nasty brush. (Please note that I'm not saying that such bigotry is right, only that it's understandable given the way that some Christians behave.) Some people take a look at how some Christians act and come to the conclusion that they'd rather burn in Hell than be part of the fan club of a God whose believers engage in such behaviour, regardless of whether or not they believe that the Christian God exists. Fri, 28 Oct 2011 09:44:38 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_262942 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_262942 TheTabster Thanks for sharing :) As a Christian myself, I've often struggled with actually calling myself one because of the reasons you've listed above. I've lost count of the amount of times I've actually cried when hearing about these things that so-called 'Christians' do. Fri, 28 Oct 2011 10:23:24 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_263495 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_263495 TheTabster As a Christian, I often find myself embarrassed by those preachers as well. Hmm. Believing in other deities isn't something I had considered -- might be worth looking into for my character. Thanks :) Fri, 28 Oct 2011 10:24:07 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_263508 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_263508 MargoMcP The Judeo-Christian concept of God is extremely masculine; we have a male God with a Son and the Fall is all women's fault for eating the apple (but what can you expect being formed as an afterthought from a man's ribs?). I'd work with Christianity's, old boy, male-exclusive, out-dated aspects. The religion reflects the surrounding society and there's still much troubling about women ministers/teachers, Paul's letters/advice about women, etc. Too, a lot of Christian Bible history is based on earlier religious practices (part of why I could never be a Mormon it's too "created" as a whole rather than something that naturally developed out of ongoing experience). Even Divine-Inspired, someone living in First Century Palestine could not anticipate Twenty-First Century Palestine, much less Twenty-First Century United States? Yes, a thief is a thief is a thief but. . .that's too simplistic to be very useful anymore in this day and age and my belief in a Personal Savior cannot be the same as your belief in a Personal Savior because we're very much not the same person and society has made it harder and harder to either understand those "different" from ourselves or the opposite, to even acknowledge (political correctness) that they are different.. I cannot learn from you because you are like me, whether you are or not. Fri, 28 Oct 2011 10:28:24 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_263569 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_263569 daqu Because there are too many contradictions in the Bible, there are so many things in the Bible that evolved from secular influences, and honestly it all sounds just a little too perfect for me. Like, the whole thing about Christianity being a religion for the masses and how even if your life sucks, it's okay because there's another life for you after death where everything will be as it should have been for you on Earth, and you'll get to be reunited with all your dead loved ones. But be careful, because if you screw up, you'll be sent to a fiery pit of damnation for all of eternity (which, by the way, the standards for who goes to Heaven and Hell have changed drastically over time). Fri, 28 Oct 2011 13:11:10 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_266098 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_266098 LDRobwell I read the bible. That's really all it took. Also, I read other mythologies. And then there is science. When I was agnostic i used to think that what ever was the divine had created the world through science but even that is just a lazy way of explaining the science (most of which goes over my head). Basically, believing in the judeo-christian god was, at a certain point, like believing in santa claus. Christianity took from judaism which took from various pagan myths and escalated from there. it isn't new or much different and holds no emotional impact for me. Sat, 29 Oct 2011 01:09:39 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_276499 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_276499 Backbones Strong and compelling reasons not to believe in a God: seeing no reason to believe in a god seeing no evidence of a god not being raised to believe in a god seeing in the god reflections of qualities that you find undesirable or immoral basically, the strong and compelling reasons for people not to be Christians are going to be pretty similar to the strong and compelling reasons you feel for not acknowledging the core concepts of every other religion as being true. Sat, 29 Oct 2011 01:40:45 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_276782 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_276782 Cadaverine Tabster: I have never really been a Christian - I was raised non-religious, sought religion in my early teens and found Paganism - but I very much enjoyed watching the first six or seven videos in <a href="http://documentaryheaven.com/why-i-am-no-longer-a-christian/" rel="nofollow">this playlist</a>. (You can click on them to view them on youtube if you'd rather; I found that an easier way to view myself.) The fellow in the videos was once a strong Christian and it is his documentation of his journey to atheism. I think it would be the best help for what you're asking. I'm not a fan really of Christianity - or at least that subsect of Christianity that believes in a literal hell as punishment for non-believers. Mostly because that seems completely at odds with any kind of loving god. At any rate I quite like many Christians, and I think if I was Christian I would probably be Anglican. I do take issue with the concept of conversion, particularly the historical conversions of Saint Olaf. (It pains me that he is still honoured as a saint. May his soul not find its rest.) Missionary work historically has destroyed religions and indeed contributed to the destruction of cultures. That it still goes on disturbs me - if you want to do charity work, do charity work. Give them a bible if it makes you happy. Don't impose your religion upon them, or make agreeing to hear about your religion a condition for receiving help. Especially in areas where the religion practiced is endangered. (I speak of course with a general 'you' and not to you personally. You seem very nice.) I have heard - believe it or not! - about mission trips to parts of Europe! Places that are very Catholic! This one girl's school went on a mission trip to a city in Lithuania that actually has a hill <em>covered</em> in crosses. It's remarkable. I'm not sure what their intent was - converting the Catholics perhaps? Makes me think they had been reading those loathsome Chick Tracts! So I suppose my main issue with Christianity is the lack of acceptance of other points of view. From a polytheistic perspective.... the person down the road might worship Athena and that's fine with me. I've met Athena, lovely goddess. The person across the road might worship Jesus. Fine, never met him but I'm sure he's wonderful also. I like that variety. When I was a child I used to read books about polytheistic cultures and wish we still had that variety - now I know those religions are springing back to life I still wish there was that variety in many places (but I'm also more aware of the private nature of religious belief). My main issue with Christianity is the "this way, or no way" standpoint of the religion as a whole, and of some sects in particular that do not see the value even in other forms of Christianity. While many Christians have been kind and respectful of me and my religion - and this is something I very much appreciate - so too have some dismissed my sacred things without even trying to understand that they might hold for me the same significance that a cross or the bible holds for them. At any rate that is my perspective - I would not call myself "anti-Christian", but I wanted to share my standpoint. Sat, 29 Oct 2011 01:46:29 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_276838 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_276838 psychoceramic None of us are born believers... nor are we believers because of our family. We are saved by our own desire to be with the creator of the universe and to have a relationship with Him. A Non believer in Christ can be such for many a reason. 1) never heard the name 2) see the "Evangelical" and see something wrong 3) just doesn't believe 4) and to me the reason i was not a christian... was because i just never understood Who Christ is... i read the word... saw the failures of his people, saw what i knew are mistakes in the bible.... and never wanted to be like them....Christ or his followers.... Now i am saved because i know God and i trust in His Son. Sun, 30 Oct 2011 16:13:44 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_303695 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_303695 unicawn Because paganism is a choice of path, where one makes one's own soul decisions and makes one's own path. I have always been deeply thoughtful about the meaning of life, and have studied a lot of paths. I don't believe anyone got it right and that there are many gods, one of them has been used as an excuse to kill and maim others... and oppress women. I also studied the history of xtianity and basically the romans romanticized the story a rebel who preached against roman rule, added in Moses law, corrupted a lot of Celtic myth and used it politically to control the masses and to try to keep the empire together... Sun, 30 Oct 2011 16:24:40 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_303933 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_303933 Phoenix Why *should* anyone believe? The burden of proof is on the "godly"--and they don't meet it. Mon, 31 Oct 2011 03:42:47 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_316665 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_316665 vvmasters Because all paths lead to God, or spiritual enlightenment. Christianity, and other organized religions, tend to take the personal relationship between the Creator and the Created, and insert middle men and churches as the route to find God. Regardless of what religion you follow, it should always be a personal path, a personal relationship, a personal unfolding. A religion pointing you toward God is wonderful, but it standing in between you and God, defeats the purpose. Mon, 31 Oct 2011 10:56:02 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_323186 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_323186 TheTabster I would have to argue here that it is not all of Christianity that teaches that there is a middle man -- the majority of denominations teach that it is a personal and direct relationship with God; the church is merely there as a place for learning and fellowship with one another -- any church that teaches that you must attend church, or go through confessionals with the preachers, etc. is, in my books, waaaay off the mark. Thank you for your input though :) Love hearing from others, and all feedback definitely helps with figuring out the direction of my characters. Mon, 31 Oct 2011 12:52:28 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_326234 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_326234 TheTabster Would you mind expanding on your view for me a bit? So far, yours seems to be the closest to the statement that my MC would make :) Mon, 31 Oct 2011 12:58:55 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_326408 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_326408 barsanuphe there's no much to expand, really. Your original question implied one would need a compelling reason not to believe. You have it backwards. It's like asking you what is your reason for not believing in Odin: you don't, because you don't care about Odin. Atheist, as Dawkins says, just go one God further. Mon, 31 Oct 2011 15:09:48 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_329824 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_329824 TheTabster There is always room for expansion, as there is always a reason behind one's line of thinking -- My reason for not believing in Odin has nothing to do with 'not caring' about Odin, it has to do with myself having found more compelling reasoning and experiences to believe in the 'Christian' God. I don't have anything backwards. People have compelling reasons why they don't believe, just as I have compelling reasons why I believe. As one of my favourite professors in University once said, "If you don't have solid reasoning, and an explanation to represent your opinion, your opinion becomes moot. Either be educated enough to know why you believe or don't believe in something, or keep your mouth shut." Everyone has reasons behind what they believe; and if they don't, then it's quite questionable as to how strongly they believe what they claim to believe. Mon, 31 Oct 2011 15:31:13 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_330290 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_330290 Manders331 For a lot of people I know...There are two main reasons they dont believe in God. 1. How could an all knowing all loving God lets such bad things happen to good people? Examples like...a child getting abused...young kids getting bullied and then killing themselves...stuff like that. 2. A lot of Christians are very judgmental...especially to the LGBT community. (gays and trans) They are bullied because of it and those Christians are just very hurtful and hateful. So that could be why you MC is against Christianity? Cause of all the ones who are so judgmental. Hope this helps. =] Mon, 31 Oct 2011 16:50:19 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_332232 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_332232 barsanuphe You repeat the word "believe" so many times i'm not sure it means anything anymore. I'm glad to hear you debated to yourself the merits of believing in Odin vs believing in the Christian God and came up with reasonnable objective thinking about which was true. I'm sure you used the same process regarding Mithra, Jupiter, and Horus. I really do think you have it backwards. Believing in any god implies making superfluous assumptions about the world we experience. Atheists are monists: the natural world is the entire world, and every phenomenon can be explained within the boundaries of nature. Religious people are dualists: they require the existence of an extra, invisible, never clearly defined spiritual world, which complements the natural world. That is quite an extraordinary hypothesis, especially when it is said that this hypothesis cannot be proven and should not even be, because it's a matter of "faith". So you see, you don't need a reason not to believe, because not believing require absolutely no effort and no special hypothesis about the world. Mon, 31 Oct 2011 17:10:51 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_332786 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_332786 Phoenix I'm not sure much more needs to be said. There's no evidence in the world for the existence of any god; simply, one might say, an attempt on the part of some humans to interpret their experiences and observations in a way that--one assumes--offers them some comfort or sense of meaning. If there's neither evidence nor proof, why should your character clutter his/her life with such fairytales? S/he might consider the Christian version of the God Myth particularly repellent because of the historical misbehavior of Christians or because of the current bad behavior of many Christians, ranging from verbal to physical to legal abuse of people of whom they don't approve. Mon, 31 Oct 2011 18:37:01 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_335145 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_335145 TheTabster Thank you for expanding some :) Mon, 31 Oct 2011 20:14:51 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_337460 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_337460 Cadaverine "Atheists are monists: the natural world is the entire world" Not strictly true. Atheism just speaks of non-belief in <em>deities</em>. You can be a quite spiritual person and be an atheist. You can believe in a spirit world, an afterlife, magic.... any number of things. You can be an atheist and a religious person; atheism doesn't imply you are irreligious. Mon, 31 Oct 2011 20:45:44 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_338176 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_338176 barsanuphe Of course you can be spiritual and an atheist. But being spritual doesn't mean believing in spirits, or magic. Not believing in God but believing in "spirits" would be like trading an imaginary friend for another. I'm not sure this is the kind of character OP had in mind. Mon, 31 Oct 2011 21:28:28 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_339198 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_339198 Apiecalypse Because there is lots of evidence that the bible is false, is one of my reasons. Also, one thing to consider is the fact that there have been hundreds of thousands of religions throughout time, a few of which have become very huge nowadays, and all feel very strongly that their's is the true religion, and have much proof. That in itself should breed skepticism. Mon, 31 Oct 2011 22:48:41 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_340956 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_340956 Rob(literated) Your MC is anti-Christian because of personal experiences. Maybe they were gay in a Mormon family. Maybe they were so disgusted by the Catholic child-abuse scandals that they swore off Christianity. Maybe they learned about the history of missionaries and the horrific things they did to people in Africa, India, and the Americas (especially the Native Americans, who had their children seized, sent to boarding schools, and Christianized against their will by the US govt for over a hundred years). Maybe your MC read about Christ and found him a compelling figure, but realized that the entire faith was more about hypocrisy and judging others in practice. And that people take the Bible and interpret it to justify whatever they want. Or he finds out that the Bible was created by the Byzantine Empire 325 years after Christ died by a bunch of Greek scholars on the dime of an Emperor, even though it was presented as unadulterated fact by his church. And so he gets thinking that, well, if this entire hulking mass of a religion is built on all these half-truths and hypocrisies and people never putting their money where their mouth is, then maybe your MC doesn't need to be a part of it at all. And thus develops a skepticism towards the entire religion, given that people are preaching and judging each other, based on commandment of books they don't understand and don't know the history of, and committing all sorts of atrocities/lavishing themselves in consumerism and power in the name of a guy who told them to love their neighbors and give all their money to the poor. Or maybe that was just my childhood. I dunno. Mon, 31 Oct 2011 23:07:29 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_341375 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_341375 Stoloniferous Personally, I was raised in a religion-free environment. By the time I observed actual adults believing in gods, it was as strange to me as if they still believed in Santa Claus. That makes me rather neutral towards religion, but I do tend toward anti-religious when I see people refusing to analyze evidence or apply logic for religious reasons. Tue, 01 Nov 2011 14:35:15 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_359508 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_359508 irrevenant "I need help in formulating a strong and valid reason my MC would not believe in God and would in fact be very anti-Christian." I mentioned in the other thread about assuming Christianity as the default, and that's what this question is doing. You're framing the idea of non-belief as something that needs to be explained or justified. This is the point Phoenix was making, but I don't think you quite wrapped your head around it. A person doesn't need a reason to NOT believe in God anymore than they need a reason to NOT believe in fairies or reincarnation. I don't believe in the Christian God for the same "reason" that you don't believe in Hindu gods - I know lots of people believe it, but I personally have never come across a compelling reason to. I DO believe there is such a thing as a spiritual experience (though whether its a genuine event or a quirk of human neurology is still up for debate). What I DON'T see is any justification for the jump from "I felt a spiritual connection with something greater than myself" to "therefore I should start believing in an ancient tribal book of Mythology". The 'answer' to "Why don't you believe in Christianity?" is a perplexed "Why would I?" Tue, 01 Nov 2011 21:10:37 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_373729 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_373729 irrevenant To answer the second part of your question why be specifically ANTI-Christian: The first and main answer is that most non-Christians have a fair amount of experience with Christians who can't wrap their heads around the concept "I believe differently to you and that's not something that needs to be fixed". IMO, at least some of that is intrinsic to the religion itself given the way it considers itself to have the "one true God", frames non-believers as "lost sheep" and ministering to them as the duty of a good Christian. We are NOT lost and we don't need "saving", thank you very much! Imagine if every few days you bumped into kind and well meaning psychologists who insisted that your belief in Jesus was a delusion and considerately offered to help set you you free from that delusion. Can you see how that might become grating after a while? Tue, 01 Nov 2011 21:44:23 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_374821 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_374821 TheTabster "Imagine if every few days you bumped into kind and well meaning psychologists who insisted that your belief in Jesus was a delusion and considerately offered to help set you you free from that delusion" Except that that does happen. Quite frequently by many people who hold the belief that Christians are wrong. I can't say there is a single day I have gone where at least one Atheist has not made a similar statement, automatically assuming that as a Christian I must be uneducated and lacking the ability to reach conclusions of my own. And yes, I did wrap my mind around it thank you. My question was looking at the differences in why Atheists believe differently. I never said it 'needs to be explained or justified', I asked about the reasons why because I want to understand it to write a proper character. People have 'reason' behind anything that they believe, whether it be belief in something or belief in nothing. There is always a mindset, logic and reasoning behind it. That is what I was looking for. There was no attack in it, and the fact that you and Phoenix had to make it so proves you are here looking for a fight. If you don't feel like assisting, then don't assist. But don't sit here and attack my questions just because you feel like I have no right to ask. Wed, 02 Nov 2011 11:41:28 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_392879 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_392879 LeAnnJ I am Pagan. I have two teenage sons that I do not push my beliefs on. My 13 old attends a pentecostal church and my 16 year old used to attend a Baptist church where he was baptized. Interestingly enough, my 16 year old, being very musically inclined like I am, played in the church band, and when he had a falling out with his buddies from church and quit attending, he got blamed for a fire that was set to the church one night. The youth pastor called me and said the kids were pointing fingers at him. I told him they could point the finger but he was in fact sick and at Childrens Hospital 3 hours away from our town the night the fire happened. Less than a week later they caught the two boys that started the fire. Some of the kids won't speak to my son still even though this happened over a year ago. Needless to say, he believes that everything he was taught in church about forgiveness, loving thy neighbor, etc., was a lie. Those kids were so hell bent on stoning an innocent person, it makes you wonder what exactly churches are preaching. He now views church as a joke. And to my surprise, he is a firm believer in Karma. Wed, 02 Nov 2011 12:46:30 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_394793 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_394793 TheTabster I am so sorry to hear that your son went through that! It always breaks my heart when I hear about these kinds of things happening in churches, because they are so off base from what Christianity is about. I struggled similarly with my church for years, because I was always treated as 'bad news' and ignored and made fun of because I was different -- it really left a bad taste in my mouth for church and what it was supposed to be about. Thank you for sharing! I think this type of idea might best play into part for my character -- and again, I am so sorry to hear that people who called themselves Christians did this to your son. It's horrible :( Wed, 02 Nov 2011 13:08:46 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_395496 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_395496 PopeyeDoyle Have you tried looking up William Lane Craig? He's one of the foremost Christian apologists in the world and has several debates up on Youtube. Here's a video of him debating Christopher Hitchens: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KBx4vvlbZ8. You can also find him debating other atheist authors like Sam Harris, etc. Watching the debates might give you a good idea of both sides, what they believe, and why they believe it. They're very entertaining as well! Wed, 02 Nov 2011 14:10:11 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_397389 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_397389 MariAdkins That's a beautiful explanation! Wed, 02 Nov 2011 14:18:37 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_397671 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_397671 MariAdkins The biggest thing that led me to Paganism? When I was fourteen or fifteen, I started wondering where Mother is. I mean, men can't carry and deliver babies, so where's Mom? When I asked these questions at church, I was told there are some things we just don't question and to mind my manners. Of course, I didn't, and kept looking until I found her. Wed, 02 Nov 2011 14:19:47 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_397714 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_397714 TheTabster Sorry, can you explain that further? I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean -- obviously, women can carry babies, so I'm not understanding where the 'where's Mom' question comes from/means? (I've never studied Paganism before, so its a bit above my head). Thanks :) Wed, 02 Nov 2011 14:45:09 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_398572 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_398572 CBrachyrhynchos Not anti-Christian, but I'm an atheist because I don't need "god" to have a rich and wonderful relationship with the world. Wed, 02 Nov 2011 15:25:16 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_399976 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_399976 Phoenix Beg pardon? I simply answered the question, and I did so without criticizing either you or it. The fact that *you* have now labelled that "looking for a fight" seems...odd. Wed, 02 Nov 2011 15:42:32 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_400655 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_400655 irrevenant Whoa, where did that come from!? I'm not attacking you, and yeah, of course you have the right to ask. I've answered (not attacked) your question to help you out. Hopefully you can look past any perceived attack and find my responses useful because I put quite a lot of time and effort into them. :/ Let me try this another way: When you were first born, you didn't believe in ANYTHING - you were born a (basically) blank slate. You weren't, for example born thinking "I don't believe in Christianity because X, Y, Z". When your parents introduced you to a chair, you believed in it - you could see, touch and (knowing kids :)) taste it. You built up trust in your parents so when they told you about things that you couldn't directly experience such as atoms or China or God you believe them. Now imagine your parents never told you that Christianity was true. Imagine you're a teen or adult before encountering believers in Christianity. When they tell you about it, it mostly sounds nice, but you have no more reason to believe its true than Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny. Do you see how, in that example, you're disbelieving, not because you have a reason to disbelieve, but because you have no reason to believe. People generally believe (or change their beliefs) when given a good reason to, and not before. BTW, I agree that "missionary" atheists are just as annoying as missionary Christians. I think in many cases they get that way because they feel threatened and "retaliate preemptively". That's a shame. I think most people on both sides are willing to live and let live. Wed, 02 Nov 2011 16:21:15 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_401669 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_401669 Frore TheTabster, Youtube search any Christopher Hitchens video, and you will find a very thorough explanation of both of those topics. This one will get you started: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7UImBPq4WI One of the reasons I find Christianity objectionable is because it teaches the idea that you can punish someone else for your sins (ie, Jesus) and be forgiven. I think the idea of a whipping boy in any circumstance is terribly unjust. Wed, 02 Nov 2011 17:15:44 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_403683 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_403683 prairiecrow [quote=TheTabster] Sorry, can you explain that further? I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean -- obviously, women can carry babies, so I'm not understanding where the 'where's Mom' question comes from/means? (I've never studied Paganism before, so its a bit above my head). [/quote] I think what they might be getting at is the arbitrary notion that the Divine Presence is exclusively male, when it's women who bear new life (and therefore logically a Goddess should be the source of the universe, not a God). Wed, 02 Nov 2011 18:11:42 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_405812 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_405812 TheTabster Phoenix, my apologies... looking back, it wasn't even you who said that. *I* should have looked before just grabbing what username he threw at me. Wed, 02 Nov 2011 18:24:16 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_406275 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_406275 TheTabster Ahh, thank you for explaining :) Wed, 02 Nov 2011 18:25:17 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_406316 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_406316 TheTabster I still see it as a reason to disbelieve, just as it would be a reason to believe. And I apologize if I jumped the gun here, but it seemed your point of that post was more to prove I was wrong and less to answer my question. Wed, 02 Nov 2011 18:36:27 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_406746 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_406746 irrevenant My posts weren't intended to prove that you're wrong. While obviously I don't hold your beliefs, it's no skin off my nose if you hold them. I was responding to your question "I need help in formulating a strong and valid reason my MC would not believe in God and would in fact be very anti-Christian.". i.e. "How does a non-believer think?". I've responded to that question by giving you my perspective on why I'm a non-believer - not because I want you to change your beliefs, but so you can accurately reflect a non-believer's perspective for your novel. That way, when the MC converts it won't come across as a "straw conversion". And I'm telling you that, as a non-believer, I don't feel that I have, or need to have, "strong and valid reasons not to believe in God". I dont need a reason to NOT believe in mythological figures - their non-existence is assumed until they prove otherwise to me. I don't believe in God because he's never given me any reason to. Is that clearer? I appreciate that this perspective is probably quite alien to you, but that's what you're looking for for your novel, right? Wed, 02 Nov 2011 21:09:16 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_412388 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_412388 Lostchildofgallifrey All those reasons are why I am NOT a Christian or in religio. I DO BELIVE in God and in Jesus I AMA CHRIST follower which If you BELIVE the bible and in Jesus you are supposed to be. But people get all upset and think that how they interpret the bible is right and if you do so a diffrent way you will go to hell and suffer. It is also peoPle like that I want to pont to that in the bible it says not to argue obviously People have not got that part vecaue of all the crap that has been done said and all that. Personally I gues a reason one would not BELIVE is because they never got the chance. I grew up with southern baptists as familey so god has alway been around for me hope I could help Sat, 05 Nov 2011 01:25:18 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_484609 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_484609 therisingmuse I'm a born again Christian. I think the point of the thread was to why someone would be anti-christian. As a Christian writer I write about this a lot. Of course my characters end up believing. I'm not here to argue other people's believes, just to help the original poster. The times I've written about someone totally against Christianity it has been because of a bad experience in the church, a very strick religious doctrine (very legalistic), a traumatic event that they could not explain how God would allow A or B to happen. I am though confused about how can someone not be a Christian and believe in JesusChrist... that by definition is a Christian. I do understand if the person doesn't attend church may not consider themselves Christians, but the Word Christian came from JesusChrist. They may not be a practicing Christian which is what sounds like. Sat, 05 Nov 2011 09:29:06 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_490028 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_490028 wiccanhot Contrary to my screenname I wae raised Jewish. The reason I have for being "anti-christian" is that I view the old testament as being complete. I have no need for Jesus in my jdaism and I resent the phrase Judeo-Christian because the only mytholgy the 2 religions have in common is that jesus was jewish and therefore cpnsidered himself thevjewish messiah. But everything after jesus was crucified has in my opinion no relevance to judaism. Sun, 06 Nov 2011 18:46:48 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_535497 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_535497 Pookie-girl Plenty of people reject the idea of God because they don't like the Church and the things it has done and/or stood for, because they object to the idea that human beings are inherently sinful and need saving, because they see no evidence for God around them, because it was rammed down their throats when they had no choice and now they do and also (and don't underestimate the power of this one) because it is fashionable. The philosphical arguments on both sides are great but even St Anselm (the Ontological argument, if it matters) understood that no-one is argued into believing. It is an internal process. He said that he did not seek to understand so that he could believe, he felt that believing had to come before understanding. C S Lewis fought emotionally against his conversion to Christianity, but eventually had to accept that he did just believe - no dramatic event led him there. It crept up on him. Ultimately people can be argued into silence on something but they don't change their minds - Richard Dawkins convinces you if you already agree with him, like Anselm or Aquinas do. Religious belief is an internal feeling, an intangible - which is why most organised religions care more about what you do than what you think - and the 'reasons' with which you justifiy it come later. Tue, 08 Nov 2011 10:46:46 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=2#forum_thread_comment_575928 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=2#forum_thread_comment_575928 Safkhet No one needs a reason not to believe in God, really. Christianity is not really a default. Anyway, some things that people might use to bolster anti-Christian belief... Christianity is responsible for some really horrible things in history. Missionary Christians alone provide enough reason to cool on the religion in general- I know there are plenty of Christians who don't try to force their beliefs down other people's throats, but the really overt, pushy types get annoying really fast. Catholicism at least is very male-dominant. Religious intolerance- male dominance as well as homophobia. Just plain not liking God. He does some stuff, especially in the Old Testament, that isn't all that nice. Pride- some people don't want to submit to a higher power or worship anyone. Mostly, though, atheists just don't need to be guided by anything. They do it okay on their own. Thu, 10 Nov 2011 09:53:08 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=2#forum_thread_comment_618930 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=2#forum_thread_comment_618930 nodgene It depends on one's upbringing and early life. You've got to keep in mind that human reasoning and thinking is not inherently logical, most of the time it's either driven purely by emotions, or heavily influenced by them. Whatever the argument, there is always a tendency away from seeking a logical conclusion, having double-standards, and towards self-gratification or dismissing the other perspective. Facts have little to do with it. Indeed, when something serious happens, regardless of context; people will naturally try and defend the decision they had made rather than be rationally critical of it. This varies in intensity and context. Could be; I left my glasses at home... oh well, I don't need them now. In which case the person is justifying their ineptitude rather than accepting that they should have taken the glasses or going back to get them. The same practice manifests itself in religious reasoning; why did God kill my child? There must be a plan behind it for the greater good. That said... in my own experience my father was killed when I was very young. I took offence to the idea that an all-powerful, all-loving God could be idle in such a circumstance, and as life went on I didn't find much to counter that point of view. But of course, some people simply become disenfranchised with the bluntness of much theology, or never were really exposed to it. If that happens they have no emotional links to it and thus no reason to defend it. An ancient Greek; Epicurus, summed up his rational objection to the notion of a God thusly, and it holds the same point: "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" Purely logically speaking, you could argue choosing which God to worship is a bit like being given a choice of picking a number of life-insurance salesmen, each with their own offers which you have no evidence to substantiate. Then either you pick the one who sounds the best given your circumstances and upbringing; or you reject the whole choice because it's essentially gambling. I used to think I was hard-line atheist, but I've become more tolerant of those I'd describe as "good religious people". Not bigots or hate preachers at the very least. Those that see no conflict between belief and science and so on. The world is pretty nonsensical and hard to grasp anyway. So I understand if people want to bet on this belief system because it helps them through the day. I don't think it's an ideal moral or logical choice, but why not? In the same way I don't approve of my friends drinking alcohol. That's their choice. I also wonder if there could be a God out there somehow? I don't see it in any religious forces because fundamentally they are human, and regardless of how cuddly; ultimately ignorant and bigoted like everyone. I'm open to the possibility. However, I am scathing about those who would go out of their way to seek to convert or argue their perspective. If they are not willing to be truly critical of their point of view, what authority do they have to try and question mine? I don't hate religions, my own grandfather was the president of the Methodist church in Ireland in the 60s. He's no bigot, so I have no problem with his life choices and it doesn't stop me respecting or liking him or friends with similar beliefs. I'd not exist otherwise, haha! But consider the context of certain individuals. If your parents were killed by catholic-dictatorships in Latin America or Spain in the cold war? By Islamist fundamentalists in the middle east? Emotion plays a massive part; but critically, without that attachment to a belief of cause (which is comparable in other debates; nationalism, what colour do you like, etc), logic often makes one sceptical of a factually unsupported argument. Hopefully you find that helpful :) Fri, 11 Nov 2011 13:59:39 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=2#forum_thread_comment_642921 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=2#forum_thread_comment_642921 CyraEm Most anti-theists I've met were raised by crazy people. The reason they hate religion is because they hate the people who they associate with religion. Which is, in total, what we all do. I associate my husband with religion and my ex and so I think fondly of it. People who have been atheist all their lives tend to be so because they have no one religious in their lives, which means they often don't care one way or the other. And people who associate cruel people with religion think of it as cruel. It should be said that this doesn't really apply to God. I've known people to be endlessly devoted to God but still find churches and organized religion evil, because of those bad associations. This pattern doesn't really carry to God most times. Sat, 12 Nov 2011 07:45:18 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=2#forum_thread_comment_656155 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=2#forum_thread_comment_656155 EFBQ Turn it around, rather than trying to figure out what you think of your MC and his/her worldview, try to get a handle on how he/she would look at you. Do you believe in God because that's what you were taught as an infant? Does your faith in God (faith, therefore based solely on teachings) keep you from accepting scientific knowledge (which is verifiable and falsifiable, can be tested and refined and analyzed). Does it mean that MC has to pussy foot around when talking about evolution, global warming, and the uncertainty principle? If he's asked a question about his own beliefs and he answers honestly , simple statements of fact, like saying "when someone is dead, their life is over, that's what the word means" is this taken as an attack on someone else's worldview? When your MC says things against Christians is he talking about everyone who might be Christian, about the actual wrongs done by various Churches in historical times or about people in modern times who use scripture to justify oppression greed and hate? When he does something decent, because he genuinely cares about things, is he told that he's being "Christian", even when that's not his belief system at all? Does that devalue his personhood and innate sense of morality? If you are in a difficult situation, and need comfort, do your friends think this is the perfect time to quote scripture at you and try to convert you? (Yes, it's likely to be seen as an attempt to convert rather than an offer of comfort - and offering to pray for someone can be perceived as a manipulative and negative thing). There are lots of reasons people can be anti-religious and anti-christian. As another poster said, hating religion and hating God are two different things. If you are honestly atheistic you don't hate God, you don't wonder why God made bad things happen or put evil in the world. You view God as a construct created by people for their own reasons. If you hate Christianity then you may believe the reasons God was invented was to maintain power and keep people from thinking for themselves, the idea of religion as the opiate of the masses. Sat, 12 Nov 2011 08:15:02 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=2#forum_thread_comment_656422 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=2#forum_thread_comment_656422 markisonlin3 Heres a link to a very interesting intervew with Bertrand Russel where he's asked various questions about why he isn't a christian. It should answer a lot of the main questions for you and might give you an idea why your main character isn't a christian. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aPOMUTr1qw I'm very anti-christian myself as an atheist and theres a very good quote from Richard Dawkins I like to use. "Religious faith discourages independant thought, its divisive and its dangerous." Sun, 13 Nov 2011 23:29:16 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_687128 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_687128 Cadaverine I disagree with Dawkins on that score. There are any number of religions and sects that encourage the seeking of knowledge and independent thought. He's an intelligent man but when he says things like that, it really makes me wonder whether he's bothered studying most religions. In no way does religion have to be divisive or dangerous. In fact I've been into many churches who welcome people regardless of religion, creed, sexuality, gender, or otherwise; they were happy to share their churches and answer any questions I had. **shrug** Mon, 14 Nov 2011 03:49:58 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_689350 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_689350 prairiecrow [quote=Cadaverine] I disagree with Dawkins on that score. There are any number of religions and sects that encourage the seeking of knowledge and independent thought. He's an intelligent man but when he says things like that, it really makes me wonder whether he's bothered studying most religions. [/quote] Dawkins is intelligent, no doubt about it, and he has some good points to make. However, he's also a bigot of the first water and just as bad in his own way as the religious fundamentalists he rails against. I know several atheists who facepalm every time he opens his mouth or sits down at his keyboard. Mon, 14 Nov 2011 08:22:27 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_690963 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_690963 Nastashal Because there is no proof that any god exists. That's why I do not believe. I don't need to explain it, my reasoning is that simple. Bring God to me, let me speak to him/her and touch him/her and see him/her, and I will be a believer. Until then, I will not believe in something that can't be proven to exist. If you don't believe in unicorns, why believe in "God?" That's my motto. Mon, 14 Nov 2011 10:58:10 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=2#forum_thread_comment_692547 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=2#forum_thread_comment_692547 MariAdkins Ah yes. That's it. Sorry it took me so long to get back to this thread. Wed, 16 Nov 2011 17:24:12 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_731017 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_731017 irrevenant [quote=EFBQ] If you are honestly atheistic you don't hate God, you don't wonder why God made bad things happen or put evil in the world. You view God as a construct created by people for their own reasons.[/quote] This. Wed, 16 Nov 2011 23:29:07 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=2#forum_thread_comment_735900 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=2#forum_thread_comment_735900 irrevenant [quote=Nastashal] Because there is no proof that any god exists. That's why I do not believe. I don't need to explain it, my reasoning is that simple. Bring God to me, let me speak to him/her and touch him/her and see him/her, and I will be a believer. Until then, I will not believe in something that can't be proven to exist. If you don't believe in unicorns, why believe in "God?" That's my motto. [/quote] This too. :) BTW, I'll be very interested to hear how your novel turns out in the end, Trapster. As you can tell, mine's umm, a little underdeveloped. XD Thu, 17 Nov 2011 05:52:15 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=2#forum_thread_comment_738253 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=2#forum_thread_comment_738253 Pookie-girl [quote=Nastashal] Because there is no proof that any god exists. That's why I do not believe. I don't need to explain it, my reasoning is that simple. Bring God to me, let me speak to him/her and touch him/her and see him/her, and I will be a believer. Until then, I will not believe in something that can't be proven to exist. If you don't believe in unicorns, why believe in "God?" That's my motto. [/quote] Isn't that a little simplistic? Especially if the character needs a strong reason for their atheism. It's a popular view, so its plausible, but it's not strong. Not philosophically (because it fails its own test), not theologically (because God cannot be commanded and faith without proof is of greater value) and not even subjectively (because plenty of believers can give you accounts of speaking/touching/seeing or otherwise encountering God). Believing in things that cannot be proved is a basic part of the human condition - ethical judgement, love, loyalty, trust and so on all fit within that category. Even Richard Dawkins agrees - he believes that Darwinian evolution is the driving force for any life which exists anywhere in the universe, but accepts that this cannot be proven. At least not yet. Of course someone may believe that it will be provable one day in the future, but that is still holding a belief which cannot be proven. Future events can't be meaningfully discussed in terms of proof, not least because we can never know all the variables that may arise (unless you're writing a really complex time travel novel). We can talk about it in terms of probability, and really really likely is not the same as proven. Personally I like Godels incompleteness theorem which says basically that regardless of the content of our established set of fundamental axioms there will be others underlying it which we cannot know - alternatively any mathematical system beyond the most trivial will contain true statements which cannot be proven. He was able to provide mathematical proofs for this, and maths is generally considered to be one of the more reliable forms of proof which is available out there and it says that we have to believe things that can't be proven if we want to get anything done. But enough of the philosophy - I guess what I'm really saying is that I find pure empiricism boring, and a character whose best argument was constructed in this way would not grab me ans make me want to keep reading; science is the best tool currently available for telling us about the emprical world but it is not the best tool for grappling with issues like the nature of faith. Thu, 17 Nov 2011 11:17:49 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=2#forum_thread_comment_740985 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=2#forum_thread_comment_740985 WVWriter [Duplicate Post] Thu, 17 Nov 2011 12:36:21 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_741902 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_741902 irrevenant (Tabster, sorry. Not "Trapster". :/) Thu, 17 Nov 2011 12:58:28 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=2#forum_thread_comment_742176 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=2#forum_thread_comment_742176 Nikk_E I do believe in God. So n a sense not the Christian belief of God. I don't believe in religion in general as there is so much dogma and stigma attached. I was a christian for a long time, but I left because I had questions, questions that nobody answered or said I was being blasphemous. I did a lot of research and found that the answers I was looking for were ones that surprised me. Jesus was nothing but a prophet until 300 years after his death, where a clever Roman Ruler decided to unite pagans and Christians under the same name. That shook me. And the fact that the bible that Christians hold so close to has been rewritten time and time again. They have taken out so much, and we don't know what they really put in. Plus reading the bible as a child a lot of different stories bothered me, and didn't coincide with my morals. Plus there was a Madonna and child sculpture in Egypt a couple hundred years before Jesus was born. Those little facts of history make me question some of the teachings alone, (along with other hypocrisy'.) But, I have no doubt that Jesus existed and changed this world's foundations as we know it. In fact I know there is a God cause of experiences with prayer. But as Christian I had that nagging doubt that something was wrong. I do believe when I first thought that I thought, if Jesus is just a man what does that mean for me? But now I realize that for too long we've used the excuse, "I'm not Jesus, therefore I am excused for this, this, and this." And it's ok. We're human. But we put the responsibility solely on him, never realizing our true potentials. If he's just a man, what's stopping us from growing to be loving compassionate human beings that lived in harmony. Nothing that's what. And I realize that takes time, but everyone has the potential to do it. (Note that there was a time-gap between Jesus' childhood to when he was 30 that could have been when he was realizing his potential as well.) It is my belief that God came to all peoples in the form of many different prophets that brought us to him in ways that we could understand. I still believe we are all his people and we all have the potential to be great, but religion I think, is what's holding us back from true enlightenment. Just my two cents. Fri, 18 Nov 2011 06:54:17 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=2#forum_thread_comment_752296 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=2#forum_thread_comment_752296 WVWriter My parents were highly religious; as a child I attended a Southern Baptist Church 6 separate times a week for 9 different classes or gatherings: Sunday morning Sunday school &amp; sermon service, Sunday evening PTL (Praise the Lord) meeting, youth group &amp; evening sermon service, Tuesday evening Bible study, Wednesday evening prayer meeting, Thursday evening choir practice, and Friday evening youth choir practice. I often prayed aloud for our church groups as my fervent belief made me an articulate and impassioned prayer leader. As if that wasn't enough, my parents also sent me to a Lutheran school for K - 8th grade: Bible class daily, Bible memorizations weekly, catechism class twice weekly, and a full school, full scale, Wednesday morning sermon service. I believed literally, and with my entire being, every word of the Bible. When I was 12, in 1968, not only was the world exploding around me (I grew up in Alexandria, VA), but also my personal world exploded. My grandfather, who lived with us and who had been bedridden for 4 years, died. I felt "the Lord" leading me to a miracle based on the Biblical "Ask and it shall be given you"; consequently, I walked up to my grandfather's casket with the firm belief that God was going to work a miracle through me. My grandfather would sit up, say, "Praise God" in his old firm way, "Hallelujah!" and people at his funeral service would be converted to belief in Jesus Christ and find salvation! I stood there, savoring the moment, deep in prayer; I laid hands on Granddad's still chest and, shaking with the inner power I felt, commanded Satan to leave my grandfather in the name of Jesus, and thanked God the Father for my grandfather's resurrection. When finally I realized that Granddad wasn't going to rise, I realized also the lie I'd been told. Moreover, if that was a lie, all of it was; "it" being the entire core of who I was and what I felt myself created to become. I'm still an atheist. Fri, 18 Nov 2011 13:20:23 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_755480 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_755480 EFBQ [quote=Pookie-girl] But enough of the philosophy - I guess what I'm really saying is that I find pure empiricism boring, and a character whose best argument was constructed in this way would not grab me ans make me want to keep reading; science is the best tool currently available for telling us about the emprical world but it is not the best tool for grappling with issues like the nature of faith. [/quote] I don't know. What's interesting to me is the different forms that belief can take. In real life I know people for whom understanding is inherently a spiritual matter, and others for whom it's inherently empirical and many for whom it's a mixture. Both these 'pure' outlooks lead to contradictions, but people still build their lives around them. Having every character approaching the concept of Truth (big T) the same way is a bit unrealistic to me. Mix it up now and then and it's more likely to grab me. Sat, 19 Nov 2011 14:31:56 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=2#forum_thread_comment_768926 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=2#forum_thread_comment_768926 baka_kit I don't follow any religion, though I acknowledge the possibility that god might exist. But if there is an infinite being, it would be by its very nature incoprehensible to our finite human brains. Therefore, anyone who thinks they know "the mind of god" has at best an incomplete understanding. Religion can be used to inspire goodness, or to justify evil. But then, so can a lot of things. Sun, 20 Nov 2011 22:06:03 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=2#forum_thread_comment_787697 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=2#forum_thread_comment_787697 BlackOnyx Well i have several reasons for my Atheism they are: 1.) I never felt this "connection" with God that people claim they have. When I prayed I just felt ... empty I guess. I never got the feeling that there was anyone listening. 2.) I live in a very Christian town where being different is practically a death sentence. 3.) Almost all the Christians in my area are complete hypocrites, they judged me for who they saw and not who i am. 4.) You know that feeling you are supposed to get in a religious place, that feeling of purity and holiness? I have never felt it. 5.) As I grew older I grew tired of living my life someone elses way, of wasting my life trying to please a being that I doubted even existed. 6.) The final nail in the coffin was my best friend and her family. They were the perfect Christians, the father was a pastor, the mother was the kindest woman I ever met apart from my own mother, the little brother was generally a good kid, same for the older brother and my best friend was the model daughter, kind, funny, intelligent and able to follow her God blindly, but completely. To complete this picture they were building their own church. But lo and behold what happens? On their way back from a different city the ended up in a car accident with 3 or 4 trucks with their little BMW. They never stood a chance the father and younger brother died on impact and the mother died the moment the helicopter landed at the hospital. My best friend and her older brother were in hospital for weeks but eventually recovered. They are both alive and well today but they will never be quite the same. Basically I just can't understand how a "loving" and "caring" God could do that to his most loyal followers, so I deserted my faith and have no desire to search for it. I apologize if I insulted anyone's religion with this, that was not my intention. Mon, 21 Nov 2011 08:14:19 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=2#forum_thread_comment_791293 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=2#forum_thread_comment_791293 Pookie-girl [quote=EFBQ] I don't know. What's interesting to me is the different forms that belief can take. In real life I know people for whom understanding is inherently a spiritual matter, and others for whom it's inherently empirical and many for whom it's a mixture. Both these 'pure' outlooks lead to contradictions, but people still build their lives around them. Having every character approaching the concept of Truth (big T) the same way is a bit unrealistic to me. Mix it up now and then and it's more likely to grab me. [/quote] I do actually agree with you about varieties of belief being interesting. It is the thinking and the process which is important. It is just that my personal experience of 'hardline empiricism' has tended to be that it switches off the thinking in favour of making the assumption that the tangible products of our 5 senses are the end of every story - you know, like politicians who answer every question with 'well, the other party is rubbish' and don't actually say anything of substance. I have encountered a lot of empiricists who employ that style of argument. Which is no argument at all. It is that which I find tedious, rather than the standpoint itself...I hope that made sense! Tue, 22 Nov 2011 04:54:06 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=2#forum_thread_comment_802613 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=2#forum_thread_comment_802613 CB_Young People always tend to assume that their worldview is the default, and this gives a lot of writers problems when it comes to making characters without those viewpoints. (Not something that I'm immune to, I've had a helluva time making my religious characters believable.) If you are trying to figure out how someone could believably not believe in god, you might try asking yourself why you don't believe in any other religion's assorted deities. It might be because I wasn't raised religious, or because I'm one of those people who just needs proof of everything; but I manage to not believe in god(s) because the entire concept always just seemed like this communal imaginary friend. When you really get down and think about it, the idea of an unfathomably powerful invisible man who controls our lives does sound a bit strange- especially if you didn't grow up with it. To me, the whole requirement of having faith in something without any actual proof wasn't something that I could do; I couldn't wrap my head around worshiping someone who couldn't even be bothered to let us know he exists. (I hate it when people preface something with, "I'm not trying to be offensive," and then go on to say something offensive, but for what it is worth, I am genuinely trying to explain- not offend.) Fri, 25 Nov 2011 15:29:28 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=2#forum_thread_comment_843163 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=2#forum_thread_comment_843163 Itzika *coughCatholicismcough* Just saying. Sat, 17 Dec 2011 12:00:21 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_979860 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_979860 Itzika Well, this thread has reminded me why I don't use the term "Christian" or "born again" to describe myself. I self-identify as a Jesus Follower who has reaffirmed my faith. I've argued with more Christians than non-Christians on points of religious doctrine, mostly about LGBT rights and/or evolution (why yes, I do believe in evolution. No, I don't think this conflicts with my faith). I spent a long time out of the Christian faith because, well, faith makes NO sense to me. Believing in something when you have no proof and you're not even *supposed* to have proof goes against logic. I tried out Wicca because it promised I could actually experience the Divine (didn't work for me). I came back to Christ when I actually experienced God. Sat, 17 Dec 2011 12:26:41 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=2#forum_thread_comment_979909 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=2#forum_thread_comment_979909 Itzika The Gospel of John was written around 90 AD (still a while after Jesus's death, but certainly not 300 years), and pretty much the whole theme of that book was that Jesus was the Son of God. Where did you get the information that he was just a prophet for all that time? Sat, 17 Dec 2011 12:39:48 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=2#forum_thread_comment_979926 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=2#forum_thread_comment_979926 Silverleaf28 I am atheist because I wasn't raised religious, and I have never found any proof for the existence of any god or gods, while there is plenty of verifiable proof for science. I am anti Christian because I was told throughout elementary school that I would go to hell. When I was younger, I was horrified that people would say things like that, that you were going to suffer forever because you didn't agree with them. Now, I'm horrified that people would encourage their kids to act that way. Also, there are, as have been mentioned above, many historical instances of people using religion to justify horrible things, like the Inquisition, the Crusades, or (for a non-Christian example) the 9/11 terrorist attacks. And the entire Bible is filled with hypocrisy, and God just being a jerk in general. The story of Abraham and Isaac has always bothered me, and the flood story, and the story of Moses (killing the Egyptian kids and stuff), especially given the fact that one of the Ten Commandments is 'thou shalt not kill." I guess God doesn't have to follow his own rules? And it's not just in the Old Testament that he does stuff like this, either. Someone above mentioned their friend's family dying in a car crash, which, if you believe in God, was caused by God. But, he's supposed to be nice. The explanation usually given is that their death was a test, which has always made me mad. My cousin died in a car crash, and that's what the preacher said at her funeral. I wanted to hit him. My thirteen year old cousin died to test her parents? What kind of sick person would do that? If they were human, we would call them a psychopath. Why should gods be held to lower standards? They're supposed to be perfect. That said, I have no problem with Christians who are willing to accept that the Bible shouldn't be interpreted literally, and who will accept reasonable evidence for things like Evolution or Physics. I really don't care what people believe, as long as their religion or lack thereof doesn't make them blind or hateful, and as long as they don't try to shove it down my throat. And I apologize for the fact that my second paragraph turned into a rant. Mon, 19 Dec 2011 02:37:05 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=2#forum_thread_comment_984194 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=2#forum_thread_comment_984194 Itzika I would never tell a grieving parent that their child's death was a test. I would, however, point out that God blessed us with free will, and doesn't generally interfere with that. So while God allowed the child to die, it wasn't Him who pulled the trigger, so to speak. Abraham was stopped from sacrificing his son because God doesn't want human sacrifices. I'm pretty sure at the end of the Noah story, God promised never to flood the Earth again. And technically, the commandment is "Thou shalt not murder," which is different from killing in general. And the New Testament God is very different from the Old Testament God--the Old Testament God was, honestly, terrifying. He described Himself as "jealous" and was wrathful. The New Testament God sent His son to save us. Personally, I strive to accept Universalism, which is the belief that a loving God wouldn't send *anyone* to Hell, and so all people are saved. It's hard, because there are people out there who *I* wouldn't save (still struggling with the "love everyone" commandment), but God is omnibenevolent, and loves all of us. I also believe in evolution; I just believe that God guided it. All of the above is, of course, my beliefs. I wouldn't presume to force them on you. I just thought you should have an experience with a (hopefully) more reasonable Christian before you make judgments on all of us. Mon, 19 Dec 2011 10:02:08 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=2#forum_thread_comment_984594 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=2#forum_thread_comment_984594 MariAdkins Yes, according to the Bible, 'God' set the rainbow in the sky as a promise to never destroy the earth again by water. Tue, 20 Dec 2011 04:21:46 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=2#forum_thread_comment_986955 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=2#forum_thread_comment_986955 Itzika *sporfles* Whoops, not funny. Except it is... Yeah, that would be why I take Genesis very figuratively. (To the point of mostly ignoring it.) Tue, 20 Dec 2011 06:30:21 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=2#forum_thread_comment_987021 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=2#forum_thread_comment_987021 TheTabster I never said there weren't any, I said not all. I was trying to avoid pointing fingers. Tue, 20 Dec 2011 07:46:22 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_987103 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=1#forum_thread_comment_987103 TheTabster I myself struggle with calling myself Christian as well -- in fact, it was for a lot of the reasons you listed here that I nearly abandoned my faith 6 years ago. And, for the record, I definitely get into 'trouble' by a lot of Christians for my beliefs on LGBT stuff too. I still consider myself a Christian though, not because of the terms it's used as today, but because it is supposed to mean follower of Christ; and that's what I am. As hard as it is to avoid people lumping me in with other Christians just because of that label, I do my best to try and show that there are those of us who truly do live out and believe in Christ, and not just a bunch of rules and beliefs laid out by an institution. Thanks for sharing! :) Tue, 20 Dec 2011 07:52:46 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=2#forum_thread_comment_987106 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=2#forum_thread_comment_987106 TheTabster You beat me to it ;) Tue, 20 Dec 2011 07:52:58 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=2#forum_thread_comment_987107 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=2#forum_thread_comment_987107 TheTabster People telling others that they're going to hell has always bothered me. I've never believed that we have the right to pass that judgement, ever, and I'm sorry you had to go through that :( Tue, 20 Dec 2011 07:57:17 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=2#forum_thread_comment_987111 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=2#forum_thread_comment_987111 Silverleaf28 See, moderate, tolerant Christians like you all seem to be I don't mind, though I don't agree with you. It's the ones like I mentioned in my first post that turn people off of their religion. IMO, at least. Tue, 20 Dec 2011 14:27:02 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=2#forum_thread_comment_988021 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/religious-spiritual-new-age/threads/13337?page=2#forum_thread_comment_988021