What is your experience of God and/or Jesus? What attracts you to the Christian faith? What do you find are some obstacles to maintaining faith and hope?
I have a secondary MC who is struggling life (kind of a midlife crisis) and I want to portray God and the Faith in an accurate manner. The secondary is in his 50s, struggling with depression, job-related stress and demands, cut in pay; his wife is retired and off most the day with her friends. His kids are grown and moved out. God's about all he's got left, and he's not too active/hopeful on this matter either!
Is there anything in your own experience that you can draw on? Is your question about the difference between how a man handles this and how a woman handles it, or is it about how age comes into it, or something else?
A man in his 50's has probably seen some things in life that didn't fit with what he was taught in Bible School. He might be having a crisis of faith; coming through that he might have given himself permission not-to-believe, and then realized that he must choose to believe in order to finally "grow up" in his faith.
Well, I can't draw from the majority of men in my life. My father doesn't have much faith, and he doesn't practice at all. As for guy friends, a lot are my age, and I'm assuming as you've noted that the faith of a 20-30 yo man is not the same as a man in his 50s. In my novel, this character (Grant) is a Christian, and while he's struggling to maintain appearances in his life, he's got a lot of demands on him at work, family, and leisure activities.
I guess what I need to know is what do men see in God or Jesus - what is the masculine view? What is the draw to faith? How do men view the theological presence of angels and demons (which feature prominently as secondary characters)?
Kate L wrote: I guess what I need to know is what do men see in God or Jesus - what is the masculine view? What is the draw to faith? How do men view the theological presence of angels and demons (which feature prominently as secondary characters)?
For myself (and I'm fairly close to your character that you're describing, I'm 48 and married --did you say if he's married?)
Also, there will be some minor differences in the views between Roman Catholic and Protestant faiths. Just my personal observation, but the Roman Catholic view, while it does focus on Jesus and the saints, tends to put more emphasis on the views of the human leadership of the church -- proclamations of the Pope, leadership of Archbishops, mentoring of the Priesthood (similar structure within other Liturgical denominations such as the Anglican, Lutheran and Orthodox) while the other Protestant churches focus on the individual having a "personal relationship" with Jesus.
So what do I, a 48 year old man who accepted Jesus as my personal Savior in 1988 see in God? That will be hard to fully answer in this sort of venue (for that matter, I could probably do 50K on that subject alone!) But, there is nothing I can say that can describe the value I gain knowing that no matter how deep I am in trouble (emotional, financial, physical) I know that I can turn to Jesus. Messed up my life? I can turn to Jesus. Feel that I am a failure? I can turn to Jesus. Don't know where else to turn? I can turn to Jesus. (I think you get the pattern..) For me at least, while knowing that I will be in heaven when I leave this earth is important, that's only a small part of it. The rest of it? Its like skydiving. If you've never done it, you cannot imagine it; if you have, you cannot describe it.
So what do I, a 48 year old man who accepted Jesus as my personal Savior in 1988 see in God? That will be hard to fully answer in this sort of venue (for that matter, I could probably do 50K on that subject alone!) But, there is nothing I can say that can describe the value I gain knowing that no matter how deep I am in trouble (emotional, financial, physical) I know that I can turn to Jesus. Messed up my life? I can turn to Jesus. Feel that I am a failure? I can turn to Jesus. Don't know where else to turn? I can turn to Jesus. (I think you get the pattern..) For me at least, while knowing that I will be in heaven when I leave this earth is important, that's only a small part of it. The rest of it? Its like skydiving. If you've never done it, you cannot imagine it; if you have, you cannot describe it.
Wow, that gave me chills. You really could do a novel on this, and I bet it would be good. Maybe next Nano? God bless you!
Hope, concretely, for divine intervention and in the promise that their sins will not be seen. Hope, abstractly, through the positive symbolism of various archetypes presented in the Bible. A star to steer by in that silly literal "what would Jesus do?" sense, but also in the profound sense of a moral compass that can be checked in ambiguous scenarios such as, "Is it better to leave my wife, or to stay with her and cheat?"
Ursula LeGuin once wrote, in the voice of a male character, that as a man grows older his way grows narrower until it is no longer a matter of what he can do, but one of what he must do (I have paraphrased; this is from the Earthsea books). That narrowing of the way is a moral narrowing, and an intellectual narrowing, as much as it is one of circumstance.
More cynically, a certain amount of male power in western society is due to patriarchal values reinforced by what the church teaches little boys and little girls about who they are. Old men sometimes owe their stations in life to the patriarchy, which receives from them in return their devotion.
What kinds of things does a Christian man find hope in?
As a woman, I tend to linger in the Psalms, Tobit, etc. I look at the women of the Bible. I like Angels for their protective qualities. I really identify with the Song of Songs/Solomon; figurative language like 'my Soul faints for You'.
But as a man, what would my character cling to? His life is good, but in his depressive mindset it's falling apart. He's not going to cheat on his wife. He's staying home on Sundays to do work; he's depressed and socially isolating himself. What would he read for support, inspiration, hope? What would he stake his claims on?
For me (male, 40) the draw to faith is knowing that I am really, really important to God (e.g., he loves me). I'm not sure there's a single "male" view of it, God is after all the same no matter what your gender. But where I live at least (UK) churches tend to have significantly more women than men in, so there must be some difference somewhere in terms of how we relate to God compared to how we relate to everything else in life. As I wrote somewhere else, given the dreadful way the church has treated women in the past and in some quarters continues to do so, what on earth must we be doing to men such that churches still contain more women than men?
My experience is that work takes up so much of your time and emotional energy (note that I'm not saying this isn't the same for women!) that you don't have a lot left for everything else. And unless you can find a way of relating what you do at work to your faith, faith quickly becomes something peripheral to your life - something you do on Sundays. Not that you don't believe it intellectually, just that if it seems irrelevant to the largest part of your life then it quickly becomes something not very important.
I think men are taught that it's good to be independent, so obviously he's not going to talk about his issues with friends or anything like that, or with his wife. He'll just carry on from day to day as best he can as if nothing was happening. (Or is that just being English?) If you can see inside his head, he might well be feeling envious of his wife, and also aggrieved that she doesn't want to spend time with him. But he may not be aware of exactly why he's feeling this way, so he might just come across as grumpy. If she's got problems too he's unlikely to be very understanding of them.
Of course men vary hugely ...
And angels and demons, or anything supernatural which means we don't have control over our own lives, are very very very scary.
Caveat: from your novel description I wonder if this man might be a catholic? I'm not, and my suspicion is that catholic culture may be significantly different from my experience (just as UK and US Christian culture are almost unrecognizably different at times). I've heard, for example, that the caricature at least is that church ministers in my church tend to be a bit weedy and effeminate (not the ones I've met, I'll have to say), whereas catholic priests are proper men's men. No idea if that has any basis whatsoever in fact, quite probably not.
And different people get different things from going to church. I know men who like the tradition, the sense of being grounded in something that's been there for a long time.
Actually, my novel has a variety of believers in it: indigenous faith (native), Catholic (practicing, laspsed), non-Catholic (Christians), atheists, and maybe some minor characters with occultic practices.
The character is fairly educated, working in the mental health field, so he'll understand why he's feeling what he is; but won't be talking about it with anyone. This creates a paradox for him: faith could be his crutch in supporting him throughout the day, but he sees so much suffering on a daily basis he simultaneously doubts the presence of a merciful deity.
It's not just an "English" thing, but a male thing to carry on with daily life like nothing is amiss. Men tend towards a "fix it" mentality - he'll fix the image others have of him, but he won't be pursuing the means to fix himself. There would also be the stigma of a mental health professional not being in the best of mental health himself.
I'm trying to find a strand of hope for him to have, since just writing his circumstances makes me sad. I can't have him go over the cliff, literally or figuratively.
Interesting. I've heard somewhere that the instance of mental health problems is higher among mental health professionals than in the public at large (although take that with a pinch of salt as it's not from any reliable source), so don't presume that would be a particular stigma - it might rather be that in that environment people are more supportive and understanding.
Also, beware of the stereotype of much suffering being something that inherently leads to doubts in questions of faith. For some I daresay it is, for others it's the opposite. The "question of suffering" (I.e., why is life so rubbish) is arguably the first question the Bible sets out to address, and for some people it is what drives them to believe in God, because the suffering and pain only makes sense to them if there is a God and therefore a meaning behind it all. Look at poor old Job - at the end of all the rubbish that happened to him, all he could say was that God was bigger than he was and it wasn't his (Job's) place to tell God what he should be allowing to happen. Maybe that's the strand of hope your character clings to?
You're absolutely right about the "fix it" mentality though. If you have a problem, as a bloke we want to fix it. If we can't or you're not ready for what we perceive the "fix" to be, we struggle to deal with that. I'd hope a mental health professional would have more understanding / sympathy than just to say "Well, I've given you a solution, if you aren't willing to take it and would prefer to wallow in your own despair then your problems are your own stupid fault" but that's basically how most of us think most of the time. (Ok, that is a bit sexist and you can water that statement down as much as you like).
Question for Christian Men
What is your experience of God and/or Jesus? What attracts you to the Christian faith? What do you find are some obstacles to maintaining faith and hope?
I have a secondary MC who is struggling life (kind of a midlife crisis) and I want to portray God and the Faith in an accurate manner. The secondary is in his 50s, struggling with depression, job-related stress and demands, cut in pay; his wife is retired and off most the day with her friends. His kids are grown and moved out. God's about all he's got left, and he's not too active/hopeful on this matter either!
Mods - sorry if this is in the wrong area!
Re: Question for Christian Men
Is there anything in your own experience that you can draw on? Is your question about the difference between how a man handles this and how a woman handles it, or is it about how age comes into it, or something else?
A man in his 50's has probably seen some things in life that didn't fit with what he was taught in Bible School. He might be having a crisis of faith; coming through that he might have given himself permission not-to-believe, and then realized that he must choose to believe in order to finally "grow up" in his faith.
Re: Question for Christian Men
Well, I can't draw from the majority of men in my life. My father doesn't have much faith, and he doesn't practice at all. As for guy friends, a lot are my age, and I'm assuming as you've noted that the faith of a 20-30 yo man is not the same as a man in his 50s. In my novel, this character (Grant) is a Christian, and while he's struggling to maintain appearances in his life, he's got a lot of demands on him at work, family, and leisure activities.
I guess what I need to know is what do men see in God or Jesus - what is the masculine view? What is the draw to faith? How do men view the theological presence of angels and demons (which feature prominently as secondary characters)?
Re: Question for Christian Men
Also, there will be some minor differences in the views between Roman Catholic and Protestant faiths. Just my personal observation, but the Roman Catholic view, while it does focus on Jesus and the saints, tends to put more emphasis on the views of the human leadership of the church -- proclamations of the Pope, leadership of Archbishops, mentoring of the Priesthood (similar structure within other Liturgical denominations such as the Anglican, Lutheran and Orthodox) while the other Protestant churches focus on the individual having a "personal relationship" with Jesus.
So what do I, a 48 year old man who accepted Jesus as my personal Savior in 1988 see in God? That will be hard to fully answer in this sort of venue (for that matter, I could probably do 50K on that subject alone!) But, there is nothing I can say that can describe the value I gain knowing that no matter how deep I am in trouble (emotional, financial, physical) I know that I can turn to Jesus. Messed up my life? I can turn to Jesus. Feel that I am a failure? I can turn to Jesus. Don't know where else to turn? I can turn to Jesus. (I think you get the pattern..) For me at least, while knowing that I will be in heaven when I leave this earth is important, that's only a small part of it. The rest of it? Its like skydiving. If you've never done it, you cannot imagine it; if you have, you cannot describe it.
Re: Question for Christian Men
So what do I, a 48 year old man who accepted Jesus as my personal Savior in 1988 see in God? That will be hard to fully answer in this sort of venue (for that matter, I could probably do 50K on that subject alone!) But, there is nothing I can say that can describe the value I gain knowing that no matter how deep I am in trouble (emotional, financial, physical) I know that I can turn to Jesus. Messed up my life? I can turn to Jesus. Feel that I am a failure? I can turn to Jesus. Don't know where else to turn? I can turn to Jesus. (I think you get the pattern..) For me at least, while knowing that I will be in heaven when I leave this earth is important, that's only a small part of it. The rest of it? Its like skydiving. If you've never done it, you cannot imagine it; if you have, you cannot describe it.
Wow, that gave me chills. You really could do a novel on this, and I bet it would be good. Maybe next Nano? God bless you!
Re: Question for Christian Men
Hope, and a star to steer by.
Hope, concretely, for divine intervention and in the promise that their sins will not be seen. Hope, abstractly, through the positive symbolism of various archetypes presented in the Bible. A star to steer by in that silly literal "what would Jesus do?" sense, but also in the profound sense of a moral compass that can be checked in ambiguous scenarios such as, "Is it better to leave my wife, or to stay with her and cheat?"
Ursula LeGuin once wrote, in the voice of a male character, that as a man grows older his way grows narrower until it is no longer a matter of what he can do, but one of what he must do (I have paraphrased; this is from the Earthsea books). That narrowing of the way is a moral narrowing, and an intellectual narrowing, as much as it is one of circumstance.
More cynically, a certain amount of male power in western society is due to patriarchal values reinforced by what the church teaches little boys and little girls about who they are. Old men sometimes owe their stations in life to the patriarchy, which receives from them in return their devotion.
Re: Question for Christian Men
What kinds of things does a Christian man find hope in?
As a woman, I tend to linger in the Psalms, Tobit, etc. I look at the women of the Bible. I like Angels for their protective qualities. I really identify with the Song of Songs/Solomon; figurative language like 'my Soul faints for You'.
But as a man, what would my character cling to? His life is good, but in his depressive mindset it's falling apart. He's not going to cheat on his wife. He's staying home on Sundays to do work; he's depressed and socially isolating himself. What would he read for support, inspiration, hope? What would he stake his claims on?
What is his view of Jesus & God?
Re: Question for Christian Men
For me (male, 40) the draw to faith is knowing that I am really, really important to God (e.g., he loves me). I'm not sure there's a single "male" view of it, God is after all the same no matter what your gender. But where I live at least (UK) churches tend to have significantly more women than men in, so there must be some difference somewhere in terms of how we relate to God compared to how we relate to everything else in life. As I wrote somewhere else, given the dreadful way the church has treated women in the past and in some quarters continues to do so, what on earth must we be doing to men such that churches still contain more women than men?
My experience is that work takes up so much of your time and emotional energy (note that I'm not saying this isn't the same for women!) that you don't have a lot left for everything else. And unless you can find a way of relating what you do at work to your faith, faith quickly becomes something peripheral to your life - something you do on Sundays. Not that you don't believe it intellectually, just that if it seems irrelevant to the largest part of your life then it quickly becomes something not very important.
I think men are taught that it's good to be independent, so obviously he's not going to talk about his issues with friends or anything like that, or with his wife. He'll just carry on from day to day as best he can as if nothing was happening. (Or is that just being English?) If you can see inside his head, he might well be feeling envious of his wife, and also aggrieved that she doesn't want to spend time with him. But he may not be aware of exactly why he's feeling this way, so he might just come across as grumpy. If she's got problems too he's unlikely to be very understanding of them.
Of course men vary hugely ...
And angels and demons, or anything supernatural which means we don't have control over our own lives, are very very very scary.
Caveat: from your novel description I wonder if this man might be a catholic? I'm not, and my suspicion is that catholic culture may be significantly different from my experience (just as UK and US Christian culture are almost unrecognizably different at times). I've heard, for example, that the caricature at least is that church ministers in my church tend to be a bit weedy and effeminate (not the ones I've met, I'll have to say), whereas catholic priests are proper men's men. No idea if that has any basis whatsoever in fact, quite probably not.
And different people get different things from going to church. I know men who like the tradition, the sense of being grounded in something that's been there for a long time.
Re: Question for Christian Men
Actually, my novel has a variety of believers in it: indigenous faith (native), Catholic (practicing, laspsed), non-Catholic (Christians), atheists, and maybe some minor characters with occultic practices.
The character is fairly educated, working in the mental health field, so he'll understand why he's feeling what he is; but won't be talking about it with anyone. This creates a paradox for him: faith could be his crutch in supporting him throughout the day, but he sees so much suffering on a daily basis he simultaneously doubts the presence of a merciful deity.
It's not just an "English" thing, but a male thing to carry on with daily life like nothing is amiss. Men tend towards a "fix it" mentality - he'll fix the image others have of him, but he won't be pursuing the means to fix himself. There would also be the stigma of a mental health professional not being in the best of mental health himself.
I'm trying to find a strand of hope for him to have, since just writing his circumstances makes me sad. I can't have him go over the cliff, literally or figuratively.
Re: Question for Christian Men
Interesting. I've heard somewhere that the instance of mental health problems is higher among mental health professionals than in the public at large (although take that with a pinch of salt as it's not from any reliable source), so don't presume that would be a particular stigma - it might rather be that in that environment people are more supportive and understanding.
Also, beware of the stereotype of much suffering being something that inherently leads to doubts in questions of faith. For some I daresay it is, for others it's the opposite. The "question of suffering" (I.e., why is life so rubbish) is arguably the first question the Bible sets out to address, and for some people it is what drives them to believe in God, because the suffering and pain only makes sense to them if there is a God and therefore a meaning behind it all. Look at poor old Job - at the end of all the rubbish that happened to him, all he could say was that God was bigger than he was and it wasn't his (Job's) place to tell God what he should be allowing to happen. Maybe that's the strand of hope your character clings to?
You're absolutely right about the "fix it" mentality though. If you have a problem, as a bloke we want to fix it. If we can't or you're not ready for what we perceive the "fix" to be, we struggle to deal with that. I'd hope a mental health professional would have more understanding / sympathy than just to say "Well, I've given you a solution, if you aren't willing to take it and would prefer to wallow in your own despair then your problems are your own stupid fault" but that's basically how most of us think most of the time. (Ok, that is a bit sexist and you can water that statement down as much as you like).