Rules for selling stuff for donations at NaNo meetings. http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060 HannahK There are several wrimo's in my region who have really great idea's for items they can produce and then sell for donations to NaNoWriMo. They will have a greater chance of selling a lot if they can sell at the Kick Off party. But are they allowed to at least deduct the cost of materials from their earnings before they donate? Because our ML has interpreted the word 'proceeds' as the complete earnings, while that would set the initiator back for way too much money. The initiator is already donating time and effort, why would they have to donate their materials as well? I hope someone can explain the rules about selling stuff at the NaNo meetings a little better. Are you allowed: 1) to sell items at NaNo meetings that you sell for costs (which you keep yourself, since that is also what you invested) + an extra amount which you donate to NaNoWriMo? 2) to sell items at NaNo meetings that you sell just for cost without donating? 3) to sell items at NaNo meetings for costs + an extra amount which you will partially donate to NaNoWriMo and partially keep yourself (for instance because it took literally months of work to make the item, and you are only willing to donate part of that effort)? Hope someone can shed some light on this. Thanks! :) Wed, 12 Oct 2011 21:48:08 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_31733 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_31733 Lorata That sounds like a tricky legal issue, honestly, and I'm going to let someone official handle it, but I do know this: nothing you sell can have the NaNoWriMo logo on them, because that's a legal problem. My guess is that the official answer would be "no, don't do it, get someone to sponsor you instead", just because it's so tricky to verify and keep people happy, but like I said, hopefully someone from the actual team can answer. Thu, 13 Oct 2011 08:03:34 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_40079 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_40079 AmayaKatana So can I sell brownies to the people who come to write-ins and donate that money to the NaNo? I realize that there isn't really a way to show the people who are buying the brownies that the proceeds are going to NaNo. It would be a trust issue at that point... Not really sure where I'm going with this... Point is, can I sell brownies and give the proceeds to NaNo or not? I don't see why it would be a problem as long as I am not presenting myself as a employee of NaNo and that this is strictly by choice. Thu, 13 Oct 2011 08:25:13 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_40230 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_40230 HannahK AmayaKatana, what are 'proceeds'? Are you donating all the money you earn for the brownies, or are you subtracting the money you spent on ingredients first? Because that is what I am not clear about in this issue. Thu, 13 Oct 2011 09:47:10 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_40661 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_40661 tiakall Your best bet would be to email HQ directly and ask. They have the final say on those sorts of things. As an ML, I've sold things at write-ins (writer's rocks, postcards, raffle tickets) but I paid for the materials and donated the entire proceeds to Nano, so I'm not any help in this regard. Personally I'd shy away from option 3 (taking a "profit" cut) because it opens a nasty can of worms - how much is "fair", are the buyers aware that not everything is going to OLL, what about other people that want to profit off a Nano event, etc. Thu, 13 Oct 2011 15:08:33 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_42674 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_42674 Dragonchilde We'll be getting back to you ASAP, HannahK. I don't want to give you inaccurate information, so I'm getting together with our Community Liaison, Sarah Mackey, to get an accurate answer for you. Thu, 13 Oct 2011 17:49:08 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_44388 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_44388 Kyouri I wanted to ask the same thing. Hope, you wrie the answer here. All the best! Thu, 13 Oct 2011 20:35:18 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_46419 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_46419 HannahK Thanks Dragonchilde, knew I could count on you :-) I'll wait and see what you come up with. Thu, 13 Oct 2011 20:58:12 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_46740 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_46740 Dragonchilde Okay, first let me apologize for the time it's taken to get back to you. We've been utterly swamped this week, so I had to get some time with the other staff members to discuss the issue. After meetingn with Tavia Stewart-Streit and Sarah Mackey, we've got your answer. At this time, we're going to have to say that it's not a good idea for merchandise to be sold at a NaNoWriMo event. We're working on guidelines for MLs, and we may consider evaluating this for future use (after we establish some formal guidelines), but as of right now, we can't place a stamp of approval on the use of NaNoWriMo meetings as a point-of-sale for non-OLL representatives. I know this wasn't the answer you were hoping for; Perhaps you could check your area's laws on raffles, and consider donating some items to raise money for OLL, rather than attempting to sell them. We appreciate any effort to raise funds to support our non-profit mission and programs! Sun, 16 Oct 2011 03:15:02 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_76607 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_76607 seriouscirrus This is contradictory to all the other things we hear from OLL. Constantly they are begging us to support them with money (and I actually don't know why they need 100k or more for a free event each year). and When we want to support them, we can't? What kind of *insert foul word here* is this? Creative people who want to donate this way, can't do this? This should be supported!! Not aborted. If I get another mail begging for money I will quite and start my own free writing event!. Sun, 16 Oct 2011 22:26:29 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_85776 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_85776 HannahK Well.. that is really too bad... it does take a lot of the fun out of the month for me and a whole group of other creative wrimo's in my region. But I appreciate the trouble you went through to get me an answer and thank you for taking me and my question seriously, Dragonchilde :) Sun, 16 Oct 2011 22:29:59 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_85830 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_85830 Keladryie I can't comment specifically on the legal issues the HQ are speaking of. but <a href="http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/wheredonationsgo" rel="nofollow">this is a bit of information on what donations are used on.</a> I know for one, that selling things in certain public venues in certain countries isn't allowed so it could be an issue when trying to sell things in cafes, for example. Libraries are generally okay, so it would depend where the meetup is located. That could be one of the reasons HQ are hesitant - they need more time to investigate. All Dragonchilde said is they need to establish formal guidelines, and for now would have to say no until these come into place. I understand this must be frustrating for you, but please take a moment to consider that HQ are doing their best. If you think they're constantly begging for money, then you would think that they'd have to have a pretty good reason to turn this option down, perhaps. Mon, 17 Oct 2011 00:48:22 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_87508 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_87508 Dragonchilde You can absolutely support NaNoWriMo. You simply can't sell things at NaNoWriMo-sponsored meetings. I do know it seems like we could run the event itself with very little money, but operating costs alone are well over 100,000 - when you figure in the costs of the young writer's program, the free materials and curriculum we provide to teachers and students worldwide, the free stickers and such we send to our volunteer Municipal Liaisons. Heck, $100,000 would only cover postage and web hosting services. :) This isn't a "no forever". It's a "no until we can review the situation and provide better, safer guidelines that will protect everyone involved." Mon, 17 Oct 2011 01:10:52 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_87801 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_87801 tiakall Try running web servers sometime - they're not cheap. Web servers that can support 200,000+ wrimos are prohibitively expensive. Feel free to start your own - mine in January runs a few hundred people each year, so I can manage the costs myself, but when you start getting even into the thousands, you're going to be shelling out equal thousands for your server costs. The age of free internet was back in the 90s; it's gone now. Of course, if you're insanely wealthy and can afford thousands in server costs without batting an eye, then this doesn't apply.... Mon, 17 Oct 2011 02:38:38 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_88995 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_88995 seriouscirrus So if I get this right, almost half of the donations go on salary of the people working there? How long would nanowrimo exist if it was all volunteers working on it? That's what we are supposed to do. Nanowrimo is an event not created by OLL, as they would like to think, but by the community that participates in the event. We make the fun, we are a group. It isn't the OLL that does all the work, the community does. We in the Belgian/Netherlands region are kind of a family. Everybody knows everybody. If there is a new person, we help him or her out, to get them started. We try to get everybody to their wordgoal. It might seem that I am ungrateful for the nano-experience, but I am not. Nano has given me a lot of things, and I give as much back as I want to, but I don't donate, and never will, not directly. Only when I can give people something in exchange for the gifts I make, I will donate everything that would be profit to me. Creating things, not only writing, are passions to me. So you are taking half the fun out of nano for me. I never make any profit out of these things, but I see the joy on people's faces when I give them a personalised gift. I only ask back, what I spent on it myself. Nanowrimo could be free. It can be done. Mon, 17 Oct 2011 06:56:46 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_91955 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_91955 seriouscirrus What are these nanowrimo-sponsored events? Sponsoring In my country means supporting through money. I don't see the OLL or for that matter Nanowrimo (as OLL represents nanowrimo to me) do anything at all then just sit back and relax when volunteers do all the work through november. I don't see any of the work done up front. I am a very social giving person, and I get people motivated easily, and I can get them to give me things for free, so I don't need the money to put an event like this together. But how does the OLL sponsor any event that takes place in the Belgium/Netherlands region? For what I see is that all people organising stuff and contacting places to hold write-ins, are doing this in there own free time, no expenses paid. So why can OLL receive salary on something we do for free? Mon, 17 Oct 2011 07:01:10 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_91989 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_91989 Keladryie I think the issue here is that you're only seeing small parts of what NaNo does, when in reality, the OLL offers and does huge amounts of work in many areas, with many different programs, outreaches, university and Young Writers things and so on. This could be why you think it could be run by volunteers and still be basically the same as it is now, which simply isn't the case. This is why they hire people full time to work each day of the year. That's why they are paid a salary and do huge amounts of work - so no, with respect, NaNo could not be run by volunteers and remain the same. A different forum that only ran a writing challenge and had basic profiles could do it though, of course. Things like WriYe exist which are a forum, a challenge, a website and so on. But NaNoWriMo do a lot more than that, and have a hefty increase in participants which in turn costs a hefty load for the servers - this is the difference. It may be all you see and are interested in (which is fine, because it's the main aspects I'm interested in too!) but please don't think that's all they do. I'm in Australia so I probably see the same amount of activity and events like you in Belgium - I know what it's like... but just because you don't experience something doesn't mean you get to decide that the money spent on it is worthless. Anyhow, I'm not looking to get into a debate as I was only trying to further explain the decision and provide additional information to help you see their reason - though of course, you don't have to agree, I'm only trying to assist you with details. Just remember: HQ of OLL have not said no, they have said not yet. They need some time and are probably too busy to tackle the idea just now when they have a new site to implement and a few hundred other things to do for NaNo, YWP, the university outreach and so on. If you're not pleased with that, and think you can't give them a year at least to take a look at this new suggestion, then I beg you to re-consider. If you are grateful for the NaNo experience, give back not in donations, but a bit more time . Mon, 17 Oct 2011 10:04:11 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_92946 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_92946 Dragonchilde seriouscirrus, it takes time - a LOT of it - to make NaNoWriMo work. We work YEAR ROUND to gather sponsors, get the resources we need to run this, pay for the servers, pay for the guy to RUN the servers, and more. We do rely on our volunteers... we have hundreds of volunteer Municipal Liaisons who make local events possible. What we do is support those volunteers. We give them resources, stickers, etc. We never downplay the value of those volunteers, but without the paid staff at the core, those volunteers would have nothing to rally around. NaNoWriMo would absolutely not be what it is today without those volunteers, organizing grass-roots groups world wide. But without that paid staff? NaNoWriMo wouldn't exist <em>at all</em>. I can assure you one thing... there is no sitting back and relaxing. Lord, I wish there were. I know that I, personally, work 15+ hours a day to make sure these forums run smoothly and don't turn into a spam-ridden free for all. And I assure you... there's no relaxation. I can't speak about exact salaries, but I promise you one thing... none of us are living high on the hog, eating bonbons and laughing about all the work we're not doing. Our tech man, Dan, for example, worked overtime 26 days in a row in preparation for launch. Launch night, none of us went to bed before 2 AM. Sarah Mackey, our community liaison (the point of contact for all those volunteer MLs) is regularly up into the wee hours of the morning supporting those very volunteers you praise. Heck, just the act of snagging sponsors for an event this big is a full time job. Most MLs are organizing a few dozen people. A couple hundred, at most. We handled more than 200,000 participants last year, and are expecting more this year. I can't even begin to describe to you just everything we do. The young writer's program alone has touched tens of thousands of children who might never have discovered the joy of writing... for <em>fun</em>, not just a grade. I don't think you're interested in hearing that, though. You've made your choice. You do not choose to support the event that has been here for more than a decade, helping thousands of writers meet their goals. That is certainly your choice, and we would never ask anyone to donate to us that didn't believe in who we are, and what we do. But I think it would be of value to try and learn what it is we do, before deciding we don't actually do anything. All you have to do is spend a day at the office to learn just how much we do. Can't visit? Give us a call and ask. :) And before you do, start here and <a href="/about/history" rel="nofollow">read our history</a>. It's a good way to start. Mon, 17 Oct 2011 16:14:25 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_95284 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_95284 tiakall You're on the website making posts right now, right? OLL pays for that. How about stickers, ever get those from your ML? OLL pays for that, too. Ever order any merchandise from the store? It supports OLL, sure, but they have to pay for it up front. Got any schools in your country that do YWP? OLL pays for their classroom kits and their website as well. There's also all the staff, who do things like research your questions and get answers for you - OLL has to pay them, too. I seriously recommend you read the link that Keladrye posted so you have a better understanding of exactly what you are getting from OLL. Just because the ML isn't getting paid and OLL isn't sending bushels of money across the world for MLs to buy things doesn't mean they're not sponsoring your region. Mon, 17 Oct 2011 16:19:08 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_95341 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_95341 seriouscirrus Thank you for the reply dragonchild. I know it seems that I'm battering the OLL and such, but all we hear from OLL here is you can't do this, and you can't do that. If the things you can and can't do (not only those 5 rules that are posted somewhere here on the website), but everything you are allowed to do on kickoff and such, that would be nicer. But when we sell things here, we never attach the name "Nanowrimo" to the things we sell, we don't even tell them that is why we are selling them. Although I don't. I just make things people think are nice and want, and I sell them to them for a reasonable price. I might charge a little more so I can donate to Nanowrimo a little. So I personally don't see the harm there. Mon, 17 Oct 2011 17:04:53 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_95783 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_95783 Dragonchilde We really don't tell folks what they can and can't do, for the most part. However, when it comes to things like our trademarks, we have to defend that... American trademark law is a pain, and if you don't defend your mark, you lose it. For example, you can buy bottles of Aspirin anywhere in America, but it used to be a trademark.. it wasn't defended, and the original makers of Aspirin lost it. Recently, nonprofit organization Freecycle lost their trademark to the term Freecycle. With regards to the OLL saying you can't do this, you can't do that... do you have specific examples? I don't know of any unnecessarily restrictive rules of the sort you're describing. I hear that a lot, but I haven't had anyone come to me and complain about something specific of this nature. With the sale thing, the unfortunate truth of the matter is that people can and do abuse the event and its resources for their own profit. Every day, I ban someone who thinks it's cool to use our site to do just that. I don't mean participants like HannahK who make fun stuff while participating in the event and post it in Marketing for others to enjoy, I mean people who join SPECIFICALLY because they see NaNoWriMo participants as likely buyers for their goods. An example is a writing contest last year that charges entry fees. They kept creating accounts and posting their contest all over the website. They weren't wrimos, they weren't welcome, and they were just looking to make a quick buck. We're here for wrimos, not as a marketing platform for entrepreneurs. It's not that we don't want people to have fun, or be creative, but we can't let our participants become prey for predators looking to make a quick buck. Let me make one thing QUITE clear: I am NOT saying that this is what you or anyone else are trying to do. You guys are the unfortunate victims of those who have abused the process in the past. We don't want OLL-sponsored events to turn into markets, and our emphasis on ALL things NaNoWriMo is that is MUST be free for participants. MLs can't even require monetary donations for event attendance to offset their personal costs! We don't want anyone to feel pressured into buying something, or feel badly if they can't. I've been there, where $10 is so much I can't even consider it. I didn't donate even that for the first few years I did NaNo because I just couldn't. That's why we provide stickers and swag from OLL to our MLs FREE OF CHARGE, always. You don't even have to donate to get one. :) You just show up, and voila! Free sticker. Mon, 17 Oct 2011 17:59:10 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_96400 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_96400 seriouscirrus yes but the stickers are advertisement. Every company does that. The are even tax-deductable. Also are the costs of the servers. I would be even more pissed off, if I had to pay for those stickers. Mon, 17 Oct 2011 18:32:29 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_96786 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_96786 Dragonchilde We're a non-profit... while I'm not accountant, I do not believe we get to <a href="http://www.irs.gov/publications/p535/ch01.html#en_US_2010_publink1000208643" rel="nofollow">deduct expenses</a>. We don't charge for them, so I don't know why you would be pissed off. They are, and always have, and always will be free. I really don't know what else to tell you, seriouscirrus. I don't think you're going to be pleased no matter what answer I give. I do hope that the services we provide have been of benefit. Ultimately, that's what we're trying to do. Provide a service to help people. I think we do a pretty good job of that. Mon, 17 Oct 2011 19:13:53 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_97194 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_97194 tiakall Your logic makes no sense. Just because they're tax-deductible doesn't mean they get them for free. If you seriously think you can run a massive webserver out of pocket or for free, I welcome you to try. This isn't the 90s - free webspace no longer exists, and even if it did, you can't get a tenth of what Nano would need for free. If you are also that entitled to think that the OLL staff doesn't deserve a salary for working practically 24/7 on Nano, you need to leave and go experience the real world for a while. Even if they were willing, most people fiscally cannot volunteer full-time and still support themselves and their family. (Of course, if you'd like to prove me wrong, come to the US - I'd be happy to put you to work.) I'm not sure what else I can do to help make you understand that while Nano is free to participate in, what it requires to operate has to come from somewhere, and that somewhere costs money, short of reiterating the suggestion that you step away from the computer and experience the working world. Mon, 17 Oct 2011 20:25:31 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_98027 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_98027 pipermaru I'm sorry but I have to disagree with your characterization that "all we hear from OLL here is you can't do this." In my 9 years of being involved with NaNo, I've consistently heard "You can do this!" You CAN write a novel in 30 days. You CAN reach for goals you thought were unattainable. You CAN step outside of your comfort zone and accomplish something amazing. You CAN be your most creative self. You CAN find support in your wildest endeavors. OLL and NaNoWriMo have *always* been about empowerment. OLL does not control trademark or copyright or any other laws, but it must follow them. That may mean that some things may not be allowed, but in the grand scheme of things, OLL is all about "Yes, you can!" Tue, 18 Oct 2011 07:16:54 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_106189 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_106189 Ehryn So, just so I'm completely clear on the issue as the thread is really long and I'm getting a little mixed up: If I - for example - printed a load of copies of my book or crocheted a hundred plushies or drew some art pieces and then sold them I would not be permitted to donate the profits from my sales to OLL if I sold them at a NaNo meetup? Would this still be the case if I took them to an unrelated event, sold them online through the forum or a different forum or sold them to friends and family? I'm just confused as I wouldn't have thought there'd be any legal issues surrounding what a person does with the profits they make from their own hard work... Or is it simply a case of OLL not wanting to seem to be endorsing these charitable sales by allowing them at their events? I know I've donated profits from sales and raffles to sponsored charities at events in the past, or even to the event itself if I know the money will be going to a good cause - which I believe it will at OLL. I want to try and donate more this year than I have in the past so before I start going mad with fundraising ideas I just want to be sure what I can and can't do XD I have a bunch of raffle tickets left from my last raffle you see ;) Tue, 18 Oct 2011 14:22:48 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_108182 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_108182 Lousy Writer 13 I am not a lawyer, a member of the staff or anything beyond a volunteer and supporter of OLL. I believe the real bottom-line issue is that if this sale is going on at a OLL-sanctioned event, it will/may appear that purchasing something is the "price" to get into the event and all OLL-sanctioned events are supposed to be free. Like it or not, we live in a world where people do make the decision that they are required to buy things/pay to participate. Also, people can and do sell things "for profit" under the guise of selling "for charity". And OLL does not want that. Plus, there may be liability issues - the item was purchased at an OLL event, would there be any possible way OLL could be named in a lawsuit should the item cause harm, violate someone's copyright/trademark, or otherwise violate local or regional laws? Every town has different rules about raffles and giveaways (because they constiture gambling, for example) and you need specific licenses (which cost money) and you need specific organizational setup to do them. I watch my wife jump through hoops every year for the PTA just to be able to do the 50/50 raffles. And when she tried to help a friend in a different town set it up for their PTA, the rules and process were 180 degrees different. It's insane. Every region, in fact, many towns, have different rules about what is acceptable and what is not, as well as rules about the taxing of such items. If I understand the posts that have been made, there has not been a definitive "No, you'll never be allowed to do this" given; simply a statement that <em>at this time</em> OLL cannot sanction in-event sales of goods because there is no policy in place and there is no organizational understanding of the local laws beyond "the rules are different everywhere you go". Again, I'm just a wannabe writer in New Jersey, but this is how I've taken the context of the messages in this thread. Tue, 18 Oct 2011 15:14:57 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_108571 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_108571 Dragonchilde <em>If I - for example - printed a load of copies of my book or crocheted a hundred plushies or drew some art pieces and then sold them I would not be permitted to donate the profits from my sales to OLL if I sold them at a NaNo meetup? Would this still be the case if I took them to an unrelated event, sold them online through the forum or a different forum or sold them to friends and family? </em> We just can't approve sales at meetings. What you do on your own time is yours. :) We don't mind the <em>donations</em>, nor can we determine how you can sell them outside of OLL sponsored events. :) We also don't want to put our MLs in the uncomfortable position of having to monitor sales, nor do we want meetings to become markets. We've had complaints in the past from MLs who felt pressured by people who wanted to use meetings/forums for purposes other than writing/NaNoWriMo. Until we can give them solid "this is what's okay" we don't want them to have to make it up as they go along. A real world example: One region had a local, exclusive writing group want to advertise their for-profit group meetings (pay to play, basically) on the regional forum, but not allow all wrimos to attend them. Since we don't allow required donations/dues, and it wasn't open to all, it wasn't allowed. Sales are a different beast, so we have to come up with guidelines like we have for forum advertisement. <em>I'm just confused as I wouldn't have thought there'd be any legal issues surrounding what a person does with the profits they make from their own hard work... Or is it simply a case of OLL not wanting to seem to be endorsing these charitable sales by allowing them at their events? </em> This isn't the only reason, but it is part of it. Please note that we're not banning sales permanently, we just need to come up with some guidelines to protect participants and potential merchants. We can't endorse or verify any sales/donations made, and we don't want past abuses where people just used NaNoWriMo to profit to become the norm. Basically, this HAS happened in the past. The original poster asked for specifics that we just plain couldn't give right now, so to prevent being unclear, we had to nix the idea. We don't have clear guidelines, so until we have them (and frankly, it's a low priority right now, so it may be some time) we have to err on the side of caution. Do note that if you make/do things to raise money, you must respect trademark guidelines... so no making NaNoWriMo buttons, even to give away (although NaNo or Wrimo separate isn't a violation.) For example, our MLs often make promotional materials for their groups, and to use an existing example, the Naperville, Illinois group puts "Naperwrimo" on their things. <em>I know I've donated profits from sales and raffles to sponsored charities at events in the past, or even to the event itself if I know the money will be going to a good cause - which I believe it will at OLL. I want to try and donate more this year than I have in the past so before I start going mad with fundraising ideas I just want to be sure what I can and can't do XD I have a bunch of raffle tickets left from my last raffle you see ;)</em> Raffles are fine, generally, they're different from someone setting out a table and going, "Here's my stuff, buy it, and I'll donate some of the proceeds to NaNo." You do need to check local laws on that, though, some places have rules about raffles. Tue, 18 Oct 2011 15:21:45 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_108630 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_108630 Ehryn Thanks, I think I understand better now XD I think I just managed to confuse myself a bit there, but I do see where you're coming from and I hope you didn't think I was trying to disagree with you or change your answer I just wanted to get things clear in my own mind :) Thank you for getting back to me so quickly! Tue, 18 Oct 2011 15:47:26 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_108843 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_108843 Dragonchilde Not at all! We're happy to help clarify anything we can. Tue, 18 Oct 2011 16:30:25 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_109211 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_109211 BillPatt While NaNo is an international phenomenon, OLL has to live in that defined part of the world ruled by the US Internal Revenue Service. For a large majority of the participants that live in the US, that means they have to follow the US Tax Code, a Byzantine ziggaruat of Code, Rules, and Private Letters. I'm not a tax attorney. I have, however, completed over 1000 tax returns as a professional tax preparer. Here's how I would view the activity posited by the original poster. Selling Stuff means you are operating a business. This would require the filing of a Schedule C to a 1040. You would have to report gross profits, subtract cost of goods sold, and then include the net income in your Adjusted Gross Income. You would owe Self Employment Tax on the net income (with some limitations), and thus endeth the first page of the 1040. On the back, you could take a deduction for the net profit that you donated to OLL, to the extent that it (and other deductions) exceeded your standard deduction. Even if you gave all the money to OLL, you'd still owe the SE tax on the net. Then there's the state taxes. And local taxes. The point is that <em><strong>in theory</strong></em> that's what could happen should someone rat out a large fundraising operation. And the ratter could be someone who believed that everything about the meeting should be free, but got peer pressured into a purchase that they did not want to make. So, for the kickoff party, I'm funding the bag of candy. I'm going to talk about making a donation, and on Donation Day (already on the calendar) I will send out a mass email. But as the co-ML, I will not mix fundraising and meetings, and I will forward this thread to anyone who does. Wed, 19 Oct 2011 02:55:13 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_117767 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_117767 BillPatt Reading this thread has been a mind expanding experience. I refer, of course, to the posts of SeriousCirrus and his respondants. There are pages of imprecations against his specific charges, so I won't belabor them here. I find it fascinating, in a sociological kind of way, to watch how the various posters have reacted according to their cultural assumptions. SeriousCirrus proceeds from a more communitarian approach, where barter is far more common. He is able to secure goods and services from his fellow communitary members without the exchange of money. He seems puzzled that it does not work that way throughout the NaNo community and appears most critical of the existance of salaried staff at OLL. The respondants to his posts are rooted in the more capitalist approach, where money is the medium of exchange. They see the existance of a salaried staff at OLL as the necessary requirement in the implementation of the larger dream of NaNo. An operation like NaNo can work for free only if it is very small, living on the sufference of it's initial sponsors. The problem is, a communitarian approach does not scale. Once past a certain point, it is virtually impossible to run an operation like NaNo without using money. That money must be secured somehow, be it corporate grants, donations, or the OLL store. I cannot see NaNo going to Verizon, hat in hand, and asking for an OC-3 line, with full 45Gb Internet speed, for free, just because they're nice people trying to get others to write. Ever try to get companies that are throwing out something like PCs to donate them to a school? Talk about mismatched socks! Here's a good example: Think of the Boston Marathon. It only lasts one day, come on, you can set aside a day of your time to volunteer for the race! What do you need a paid staff for? The question is the answer. Someone's got to be in charge of the thing. Year-round. Because someone's got to organize everything, including the volunteers. A monthly Road Runner club could probably have a all-volunteer staff. But scaling 'road running' into 'Marathon' requires year-round, full-time staffing. And that requires salaries to keep the good people from leaving to find a paying job. The same pertains to NaNo. And Camp NaNo. And Script Frenzy. And the Young Writer's Program. NaNo has gotten too huge to run on the vagueries of volunteerism. The community demands that the website stay up. That the ML kits are ready. That the word count widget works. That there's some kind of Winner's Goodies at the end of the month. And that somehow, they manage to snag a couple of honest-to-goodness published, famous authors to cough up some free pep talk for us in November. Someone's got to be the face of NaNo. Someone's got to run the office housing the servers. Somebody's got to stick the security patches on the servers. As wonderful as volunteers are (this is my first year as ML), if your dream is getting as many people as possible to write 50k in 30 days, you have to bite the bullet and start paying people, because the dream is too important. Perhaps I have ranted overlong. The basic point is communtarianism works only for small, non-complex endeavors. Once it scales up, though, you must begin paying people to keep the organization together, functional, and running for the next time. Wed, 19 Oct 2011 03:42:26 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_118472 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_118472 Coffeetailor Not the exact same question, but since it's in the same line of thought, I figured I'd ask here. Would we be allowed to have some sort of food available with SUGGESTED donation "prices." Meaning that people are free to chip in as little or as much as they want, or nothing at all, for something like, say, a brownie. I'm thinking it'd be okay since it's actually a donation not a real price, but wanted to be sure before I started baking. Wed, 19 Oct 2011 10:54:32 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_122228 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_122228 dancingfool nicely done, Bill. Wed, 19 Oct 2011 12:58:47 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_122964 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_122964 BillPatt Thank you, DF. Those three words of yours brightened my day. Wed, 19 Oct 2011 13:32:26 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_123242 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_123242 tiakall I agree with dancingfool, excellent post. Wed, 19 Oct 2011 14:54:27 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_124005 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_124005 Dragonchilde I'm not sure... it should be okay, since you're not selling or requiring donations, but I'll have to check with Sarah when she gets in today. Wed, 19 Oct 2011 15:05:24 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_124140 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_124140 Bookworm140 Excellent and well said! Wed, 19 Oct 2011 21:39:34 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_129776 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_129776 TitaniumMario Thanks for the clarification on this subject Dragon and everyone else. Thu, 20 Oct 2011 01:08:53 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_132834 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_132834 HannahK Wow, this thread really exploded since I came her last. BillPatt you are absolutely right that this is mostly a cultural difference. That has been clear to me for years already. The thing is, your American way of thinking is so alien to us Dutchies, that it has become really unpredictable to me. I think it has a lot to do with the difference in legal culture. I don't know if this is completely accurate, but it seems to me that in the US you can pretty much sue anyone for anything. Which means you can also be sued for anything, so you have to prepare for anything. That doesn't exist in our countries. If you went to court to sue a company because you slipped on a wet floor and there wasn't a caution sign, the judges would laugh at you. Actually you probably would not even get that far, that case would not be accepted to begin with. We are very strong believers in self-responsibility. If you don't want to slip on a wet floor, you'd better make sure you use your eyes to see when the floor is wet and step with caution so you won't slip. So I asked this question because I could just not imagine what on earth could be the problem with selling things for cost or for costs + donation, since you are not making any profit on it, so you are not 'stealing' any money from OLL. I must say I am truly baffled that it has to do with protecting people who are not able to say 'no' to an offer they are not interested in. That probably also has to do with the fact that in Holland it is much more accepted to say 'no' to something you don't want, but also because we do not believe it is the responsibility of the government or the judicial system to protect people who are not self assured enough to stand up for themselves. No way would it be possible to sue anyone here for selling you something you felt 'pressured into buying'. Not unless there was an actual clear threat or weapon involved anyway. So that truly surprises me. If that is the case however, I still do not see the difference between selling things for cost + donations or selling things for donations completely. Or even asking for a voluntary donation, because people might still feel pressured into making such a voluntary donation, right? The other main cultural difference is the way our different countries handle these issues in general. Because you have not made clear guidelines yet, you want to stay on the safe side by simply banning all of it. The reason why it's mainly Dutchies that get upset about this, is because in our culture it would be the other way around: if you do not have really clear reason to why you should ban or forbid something, you'd better not do that. That constitutes as taking away a freedom that is our right in Holland. So taking that away, without a very good reason, that is something that WOULD be acceptable as a legal case and you could actually get sued for that! So we are used to people asking or requesting us certain things, like our cooperation in finding a compromise or a mutually acceptable solution, but we are not used to people forbidding us things without a very pressing reason. So that is why these things just keep upsetting us so much and why it's always a wrimo from our region 'that is at it again' (as I heard quoted recently). I do wonder, if this is mostly legal issues, is it not possible to put in your terms that you very much applaud and would like to stimulate the organising of events, and that you can only offer guidelines, but since it is not possible for a professional employee of OLL to be present at all these events all over the world, you can not be held accountable for anything that does, or does not happen at these events? that would be perfectly acceptable in The Netherlands, but I have no idea if that would work in the US This way ML's and wrimo's from every region can work out for themselves what works and what doesn't and the ML's don't have to be scared they get fired for not keeping their wrimo's to your rules even though they sort of clash with the local culture. For instance, we wanted to make a small corner during the KO where people could place whatever goods to had to sell with a little note next to it saying what it was, who's it was, what it costs and how much of that would be donated. And there would be no active selling otherwise. That way people that had self-published NaNo novels could also bring them and put them there. That way only wrimo's who were interested could go to that table and look at the goods and those that weren't would not even have to see what was on sale. Only people with a real interest in purchasing a certain item would actually go and talk to the person it belonged to. So anyone could go to that corner to browse without getting a sales pitch. Seemed like a great solution (to us anyway), but the ML's said 'no' because they don't want to get in trouble with you guys. But you can hopefully imagine what the wrimo's think about that, so the ML-wrimo's relationship is getting rather volatile as well and it is not doing the atmosphere in the region much good. I love NaNo but I am seeing things go downhill in my region and I hate that. I get into a fight over stuff like this with my ML but at the same time I feel so bad for her, because she is just this enthusiastic young kid that signed on because she likes to organise things, but instead she has to tell wrimo's what they can and cannot do, and I just explained how our nations tends to react to that. No wonder we need a new ML every year. So that is the effect what the American way of doing things has on our Dutch region and I really do hope there is something that can be done about that. I am not saying this to pressure you in forming guidelines, since you already said you wont have time for that any time soon, but I just hope to give a little insight into how different regions look at these issues and to why this is such a big problem in our region. Thu, 20 Oct 2011 01:16:45 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_132952 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_132952 Keladryie I understand what you're saying - the same thing would happen in Australia. We don't have such strict rules and we sort our issues here calmly without getting lawyers involved. We're known for being relaxed and 'no worries' about everything after all. The issue is that at these organised meets, NaNo itself is being represented, and their HQ is American. Bill sums it up best in his post <a href="http://nanowrimo.org/en/forum_comments/117767" rel="nofollow">here</a> - his shorter one. Once again, please try to understand that OLL haven't said 'NO'. They've said 'not yet', and will look into it and hopefully get some guild-lines organised for next year. I think that's fair enough. Thu, 20 Oct 2011 01:57:25 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_133546 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_133546 BillPatt HannahK, A long and thoughtful response - I thank you for the time and effort (not to mention the effort to render it in English!) that you put into this. I really am honored by this. First off, I should note for the record, that this is my first year being a ML (co-ML, actually). I am a volunteer at this, I have no other connection to OLL. I do not draw a salary. The mods and powers that be at OLL, if they notice me at all, know me as a screen name, a pic, and a tendancy to craft long posts with a lot of $10 words. I commented because there were aspects to this thread that nobody had covered. Thus.....I am not an OLL shill, just a fledgling ML. So, let's dive into your post. There is a significant difference in culture, to say the least, between Europe and the US. I was stationed in West Germany before the Wall fell, as the guest of the FRG government. And because the US Army sent me there. It was at the same time wonderful, charming, and frustrating. You could sit in a gasthof all night, playing backgammon with your wife, take long walks that took you through private property, with no problem. But you couldn't work on your car on Sunday, and driving through a State forest on a trail could get you a fine for damage to the dirt trail. I mention these not to judge them as right or wrong, but just to highlight differences in our two cultures. The single most significant reason that our legal cultures are so different is how losers in lawsuits are treated. In England (I know) the loser pays all court costs. This 'loser pays' rule does not exist in the United States, unless the lawsuit has been deemed frivolous. When a person believes they are wronged, they can get a lawyer, pay nothing for their services, file a lawsuit, and hope the courts find for them. The plaintiff's lawyer then takes his cut from the judgement. If they lose, all they have given up is their time. The defendant (think OLL in this case) must pay their legal team regardless, and be prepared to pay the judgement. If the defendant wins, they cannot recover their court costs from the plaintiff (the one who sued) So no matter what, OLL loses in a lawsuit. Sometimes they lose a little, they could potentially lose a lot. Hence the 'rules' and general air of risk aversion. The United States inherited British common law, but decided that 'loser pays' had a stifling effect on tort cases from lower economic class people. What the Founders didn't foresee, though, is the explosion of litigation, the rise of the tort lawyers bar, and the strangling effect that this would all have on economic activity. Changing the law so that the loser pays the court costs of the winner (and change OLL's "always lose" situation to where they could at least win back the costs of defense) is but one of several initiatives that fall under the term 'Tort Reform'. Tort reform is a contentious political issue here in the US, and commenting past this point would bring politics into the thread, which I am loathe to do. There is another aspect to this that must be explored - that of entrepreneurs who see the NaNo community as a ready-made list of potential customers. Case in point: Suppose I was an Avon distributor (It's a cosmetics company), and I wanted to set up a table of tastefully displayed products for sale at retail prices, with the profit donated to OLL. Can you see that within a short time, what used to be purely literary events turn into a carnival of commercialism? The effect on the wrimos is even worse. They would feel pressured into buying something. Unconsciously, they would avoid the events. The events are one of the major factors in assisting many writers past the 50k level. It's not so much that the wrimos have to be protected from would-be vendors. It's to focus on the writing and the fellowship. NaNo events should be a place where a wrimo can go, talk about their work, exchange ideas, and get some writing done. Sales displays are a distraction. Even when I am runing No Plot No Problem workshops, people are leafing through the books instead of listening to the discussion. And then there's the tax implications - which I covered in another post. That's it for this section. I'll cover your other points in another post. (What, MORE? Give us a break, Bill!) Thu, 20 Oct 2011 05:16:48 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_136628 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_136628 BillPatt In this post, I will comment on the last three paragraphs of your post, HannahK. Please understand that I do not know any of the folks involved in this Region - I am commenting as a new ML looking in from the outside. "ML's don't have to be scared they get fired". I suppose they COULD get fired if the violations are egregious enough....if I tried to sign them up for a scam vanity press, for instance. I've never heard of it happening, though, but being new, what do I know. My sense of OLL, though, is that they bend over backwards to work things out civilly. I don't doubt that your proposed table is as non-pushy as you describe. I'll also take as a given that your sales process is exactly as you describe. And that the ML said no, and gave as a reason that their interpretation of the OLL rules precluded sales as you described. What concerns me is the account of what happened after the request was refused. You said "But you can hopefully imagine what the wrimo's think about that, so the ML-wrimo's relationship is getting rather volatile as well and it is not doing the atmosphere in the region much good." My assumption is that you asked the ML in private (via NaNoMail), instead of in public (via thread or in a meeting). If so, how did the other Wrimos find out? However, even if it was done in public, which is certainly acceptable, how was the refusal handled? I'm generally known as a hothead at work, so I can understand how frustration can escalate things. If I could offer some advice, I would ask myself, "Is my desire to sell my work overriding the community's goal of getting other writers to generate a 50k novel in November?" You may well feel that the region is going downhill. I find it improbable that the presense or absense of a sales display is the reason for that. Remember, the ML is a volunteer position. If the region is changing MLs all the time, there has to be a reason. I find it troublesome when you said that you get into fights all the time with your ML. Is the sales display really that critical so as to warrant a 'fight'? Maybe I am an old soak at 51, but I'd rather harbor my energies for things like fighting with publishers, or editors, and not over the community where I write. I guess all I am saying is perhaps take a step back, think about first principles, and decide if the issue at hand is worth the confrontation. I have found that most of the time, it is not. I would be interested in how other European regions handle the cultural differences. I cannot believe that your Region is so different from other nearby ones that this level of stress has developed. Again, I am NOT an OLL shill. This fascinates me from a sociological angle. Remember the first principle of NaNo (as I see it): 50k in 30 days in November. All else is trimmings around the edges. Bill Thu, 20 Oct 2011 06:09:38 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_137208 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_137208 Athildur Dear Bill (and other readers), I believe the central issue is not necessarily whether selling your work is or isn't more important than reaching those 50k. In fact, I don't even think reaching the 50k is the topmost priority. The priority should be to come together and have fun as a community, and to promote writing as a skill and art form, and motivate everyone who likes to do that. The contest to reach that 50k in a month is but a means to that goal. Anyone can register on the website and write 50k in a month (well, not anyone, but I hope you can see what I mean by this), but is that really the true NaNo experience one should strive for? I think it's not. That isn't to say people who do this are wrong by any means, but it does mean that I think those people miss out on an essential part of NaNoWriMo that makes the entire experience more fun. Now, a lot of people in our Region have creative minds (as do the people in every region, I'd imagine) and some of them love to put those minds to use by creating fun, useful or inspirational items or services that they would like to share. When HQ flat-out denies them the opportunity to do this during what is for some the height of the social part of NaNo (the kickoff/TGIO parties), it's a feeling that your creative voice is being stifled by HQ. This is in part due to there being no clear guidelines presented where they are easily found (and by that I mean not having to dig through the whole forums to find the answer), which in turn causes those select few participants to get excited about their ideas, only to then find that HQ is effectively throwing it out the window. Let me be clear, I am not saying this is a right vs wrong deal. I think this is mostly to do with proper course of communication, and that it may be lacking a bit in this area, causing some people to get upset and demotivated where they really shouldn't have to. -- As for the legal aspect. I wonder how the OLL is legally responsible for everything that happens on (for example) a KO party. I know OLL sponsors it with free stickers for the MLs, for example. But just because I donate (or even employ the person running the event) some tea to an AA meeting doesn't make me responsible if one of the attendants proceeds to physically assault someone. (I don't mean to offend anyone attending AA meetings, it's just an example) I can understand the fear of legal repercussions and the lose/lose situation of being assaulted by legal cases from every direction, but surely this is not a new idea, and OLL does have a legal team which should be able to answer these questions with a little more certainty without too much of a hassle (I can't believe OLL would be the only organisation to ever deal with the question). In terms of participants claiming they felt pressured to buy something: I could claim the same after receiving several e-mails asking for donations. --- In the end I think much displeasure on our part stems from the fact that a joyful and free-spirited event like these meetings are being tied up in legal issues and restrictions to 'protect' us. While I do appreciate the intention to protect its participants, it feels more like at the root this is more about protecting OLL (and yes, through it, protecting NaNoWriMo), while at the same time suggesting we would not be able to 'protect' ourselves. I think every ML would have the necessary insight to answer these questions themselves. I can understand OLL giving advice on the issue and warn about legal issues, but I fail to see how OLL is actually running these 'officially sanctioned' events, rather than these events being run by (for example) the MLs that actually organise and run them. Rather than a 'do not' attitude and putting your fingers in your ears, would it not be better to find an answer as soon as possible for even a basic way to resolve the issue. (Like, could a KO be independant from OLL, yet be sponsored by it). --- As to the last part of your reply, I think overall, Dutch people tend to be a lot more vocal about their grievances with the system. It's something we do no matter where we are, and we're a lot less afraid of standing up and 'mouthing off' if we feel we're not being treated fairly 100%. And, while I may be wrong here, I do believe HannahK attempted to resolve the issue privately, but (possibly through some miscommunication) it spilled over onto the regional forums. --- In any case, I do not know if the MLs sign some sort of special document when they are instated as ML, but the regular Terms &amp; Conditions, as well as the Code of Conduct, does not prohibit any participant from selling their wares during a KO. I would suggest HQ consider including a paragraph on what they feel is acceptable during these events, so that people needn't be surprised and disappointed when they find out otherwise. Thu, 20 Oct 2011 17:53:10 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_142362 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_142362 Athildur Oh, and I'd like to add that selling wares does not necessarily make you a business. (At least in this country) you need to be registered with the chamber of commerce before you can be officially recognised as a business, and this comes with certain responsibilities and perks (such as how tax is handled). For example: I cannot believe that anyone who's ever sold anything 2nd hand over ebay is a business. I do not believe anyone who's ever held a garage sale is a business (or required to be one) These may differ from what's happening here (someone creating something and then selling it, rather than reselling stuff they already had), but I still do not believe you are required to be a business to do it. I also fail to see how *I* would be judged under US Tax Laws (or whatever other US Law) if I, as a Dutchman, would sell things at a KO. Unless I was paid and employed by OLL to do business, I have no connection or affiliation with US Law or the IRS at all. And even *if* I was operating under OLL's employ, unless I based my company in the US I would not be subject to your IRS. The proceeds that I would funnel to OLL would become part of OLL's assets/business/whatever the term and that would most certainly come under the inspection and laws set by the IRS, but my own business would still be subject only to the 'IRS' of the country my business was based in. (For example, many businesses (even american ones) have large offices and 'child' businesses overseas because it is much more favorable to them in terms of taxes. Why would they go abroad if all of their business was ultimately under the scrutiny of the IRS? There would be no tax benefit at all) I'm working off of limited knowledge of business and law here, but I am always intensely interested in discussions and cases such as these (even if they don't apply to me), so I'm mostly arguing for the sake of learning. Any insights you might be able to provide would be very welcome (and if you can't, perhaps others can, eventually). Thu, 20 Oct 2011 18:06:40 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_142534 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_142534 seriouscirrus This and hannahk's latest post is the point I was trying to make. As a participant in what way am I american myself? I didn't get an american visum? I am still Belgian and still have to do my things under Belgian law (or if i'm going to the Holland Kickoff, i'm under holland law), never will I be under american law. For our cultural differences, the only American thing we have here is aggressive door to door salesmen trying to sell a vacuum-cleaner with some kind of head-ache odours with pineapple or something. We hate to be bullied into doing something we don't want to, as in donating or buying one of these vacuum-cleaners. Thu, 20 Oct 2011 19:50:14 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_143909 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_143909 tiakall Strange, that isn't the point I get from your other posts. I got that you didn't think OLL deserved to be paid and that OLL does nothing for you, not that participating in Nano makes you an American. No, you are not American. However, OLL is located in the US, and therefore must adhere to US laws. The Internet muddles things due to its lack of borders, but most websites have to adhere to the place where they physically reside - that is why some distributors of content that violates copyright move their servers to countries where the copyright laws are lax or less enforced. This is not to say that it <em>would</em> be any sort of problem, but the staff is saying that <em>right now, they do not know that for sure.</em> They have to take into account liability issues, tax issues, and so on (and if you know anything about the American tax code, easy it ain't.) They are not telling you no, never, not in a thousand years - they are telling you <em>not for now</em>, because they don't have time to research the issue since they are working on, oh, I don't know, an upcoming season of Nano. You say that you hate to be bullied, but it strikes me that you are pressing very hard to be able to sell things at the kickoff meetings - which strikes me as ironic given that you are convinced that the OLL is all about money. Just let it go for this year and let the staff get back to you when they have time to think about it. Thu, 20 Oct 2011 20:27:07 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_144492 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_144492 seriouscirrus But another stupid thing... they organise nano say how many years (almost a decade?) and they haven't researched this before? Would you donate to an organisation that hasn't researched such an easy thing? I give them a possible answer that they can overthink and implement right away: "If the laws in your country don't forbid it and you don't use nano's name or logo, and you don't force things on other nano-participants (set up a table like hannahk suggested) then it can be done?" How difficult is this? Thu, 20 Oct 2011 20:35:13 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_144592 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_144592 tiakall Hi Althidur, They haven't banned it - they've said "not right now" - Dragonchilde has posted those exact words in this thread already. It isn't in the code of conduct because the question hasn't really come up before. My post to cirrus below addresses much of your same points, but the tl;dr version is that 1. you are not subject to American laws, but OLL is 2. OLL doesn't know at this point in time whether there would be issues with people selling things at a OLL-sponsored event. You say that the true goal of Nano is not the 50k but the fostering and encouraging of community and writing, and I can agree. So where does selling things come into that? It's a nice perk, sure, but it's just that--a perk, same way stickers are a perk. If anyone is "sticking their fingers in their ears", I feel like our points are being lost, rather than yours. You're being heard. Instead of demanding an answer right now, immediately, let's sit back and let OLL take a nice long look at it instead of trying to rush them into an answer (I know if I was being rushed into a response, I <em>would</em> come back with "no, not ever".) Thu, 20 Oct 2011 20:35:33 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_144600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_144600 Athildur tiakall, with all due respect, saying 'not right now' is still effectively a ban. They can lift that ban later, once they have looked into the matter, but that doesn't change the effective result of the decision. I think the point is not so much that we want to *sell*. I the point lies more around the part where people would like to make/create/make available some great ideas or things for other people to enjoy. But without selling them (i.e. returning the investment), that's simply not possible for a lot of people. I'm *not* saying this is an essential part of the wrimo experience. What I *am* saying is how I view the matter and how these proceedings have pot a bit of a stopper on the fun for some people. And you can agree, I hope, that as a person standing on the less favorable side of the fence, it's fairly frustrating to hear the 'we'll get back to you when we can' response, however sincere it may be. I'm really not trying to assault HQ here, and I appreciate Dragonchilde and everyone who does something for NaNo a great deal, but that doesn't change the fact that I'm not entirely pleased with the situation. I'm not planning to raise hell over it either, but since there's a specific thread here about it, I thought I'd let myself be heard. (And yes, I did read through the entire thread but I felt like there was not a sufficient enough answer yet) Thu, 20 Oct 2011 23:13:23 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_146917 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_146917 Athildur I would like to add that, at this point, I don't think cirrus means for this to be about pressing the ability to sell things. It's more of a matter of ideals. He (and to some extent, I as well) simply don't like how the matter is being handled. Or perhaps we simply don't understand enough. But the answers we've heard so far is 'not right now' and 'we'll look into it, we think this may be bad for OLL'. And, however, right and true those answers might be, they're simply not very substantial and we're not too happy about it. I think both cirrus and I just don't get why OLL would be liable in *any* way if an individual chose to do business at a meeting. (Because again, OLL isn't running the business, nor is OLL even condoning or endorsing the business. Nor is OLL even legally responsible for what happens at these meetings as far as we understand) If *anyone* with some form of legal background or knowhow could possibly find even five minutes to explain, in short, why there's this hesitation, we probably wouldn't be pressing the matter so much. PS: If it helps, I'm really sorry for giving everyone a headache over this. But it just bugs me, and I can't let go of this. And I honestly don't think we'll see eye to eye on this, and you probably both feel like the other's not hearing you. And perhaps we're not. I think arguing the point isn't really going to get us anywhere anyway, until we can get something official and more tangible. Thu, 20 Oct 2011 23:25:22 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_147099 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_147099 seriouscirrus What he said. Thu, 20 Oct 2011 23:36:12 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_147257 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_147257 Bookworm140 Fifty years ago just about every kid in America had opened up a lemonade stand in front of his house. It was easy. You set up a table in your front yard, get your mother to make a bunch of lemonade, and start selling it on a hot day to anyone who passes by for five cents a glass. The kids learn about business and dealing with customers and everyone is happy. Nowadays, if a kid tries to do the same thing, he runs into zoning laws that range from disrupting traffic to selling a food item without a proper permit. By the time the dust settled, the kid had made five dollars from satisfied customers, a neighbor had complained because she had trouble getting into her driveway, and the fast food place five blocks away was complaining about unfair competition. Under orders of the police, Mom shuts down the stand and now has to go down to the courthouse to pay the $100 in fines her kids received for their attempts at free enterprise. Now you rarely see a lemonade stand anywhere. Once you get into situations involving adults, it gets a lot more complicated. If you are selling items while holding a meeting in a place of business, the business owner may complain that you're cutting into his business. Plus, restaurant owners may be liable for problem stemming from food sold on their premises even if they didn't provide the food. If the brownies sold the the event make someone sick because someone was allergic to an ingredient, the business owner could be liable. That's why you see signs on the doors of restaurants and movie theaters that say "No Outside Food or Drink". Plus, if someone gets hurt by one of the items (someone trips over a stuffed bunny) the business owner could be liable for any injuries because it happened on their property. Plus, some areas have regulations on what can and can't be sold at charity or other events and sometimes permits are needed. sometimes permits are needed even for non-profits is more than a certain amout of money is expected to change hands. I live in a small town and now and then we have a street festival where stores and organizations set up booths in the streets and do face painting and balloon tosses and stuff. The businesses and groups have to register in advance to make sure any needed permits are in order. In the U.S. schools are coming under fire for holding bake sales to raise money for cheerleading uniforms. Officials say food sales need a food permit and the kitchens of those contributing would have to be inspected. Plus, the cheerleaders who are manning the tables are not being paid, so that may conflict with child labor laws. Plus, now schools are thinking of regulating whether or not certain foods are "healthy" enough to be sold to students. BASICALLY: In the U.S. everything becomes complicated. Organizations here have to consider the risks in so many ways that people in other countries would have no idea about. That's why Nano has to be careful about how they answer these questions. Hope this helps. Fri, 21 Oct 2011 00:08:40 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_147721 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_147721 mattkinsi I'd like to make a motion - instead of this rather pointless back and forth, why don't we focus on planning our novels. For now OLL's word is the rule. We accept that They say they will re-examine it in the future. We accept that. The back and forth on a thread isn't going to change that, and by this point OLL has got a pretty good idea of the reasons why you'd like to sell stuff. As part of the Terms and Conditions which you have agreed to or you would not be able to reply to this, [quote]You further agree that, to the fullest extent permissible under applicable law, the Office of Letters and Light shall not be liable for any direct, special, incidental, indirect, punitive, or consequential damages or for lost profits, business, or revenues, arising out of, or in connection with, the use of NaNoWriMo.org or its features (or the inability to use the same), including any claim attributable to errors, omissions or other inaccuracies in the content appearing in NaNoWriMo.org, whether suffered by you or any party claiming rights derived from you.[/quote] If you don't agree with their policy, bickering about it in a forum is unlikely to actually, you know, lead to any kind of change. Do your research and send an email to OLL staff. Because right now, instead of appearing passionate (which I assume you are) you are coming off sounding whining, at least to me, and I'm sure that's not your intention. And please remember that your MLs are volunteers who generally don't sign up to get migraines and would appreciate a "thank you and I'm sorry for putting you in the middle of this" every now and then. There are much better things to focus on than this already answered question. If you want to argue about questions that haven't already been answered, look for the screaming fits over the use of "howdy." Fri, 21 Oct 2011 00:43:36 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_148191 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_148191 tiakall I'd be quite glad to donate to an organization that hasn't had to research the question before - it means that they haven't had members selfish enough to want to piggyback off the event for their own personal gain before. If you'd like to go hire a lawyer versed in American laws and get his professional advice so the matter could be settled RIGHT NOW, feel free. I'm sure OLL could use the helping hand. Fri, 21 Oct 2011 00:47:44 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_148257 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_148257 tiakall You will get something more tangible if you back off, stop arguing for the sake of arguing, and let the OLL get some work done and get back to you when they have time to research the matter. Which they have done multiple times. At this point, I don't see why anything else needs to be explained to you just to satisfy your need to fight the man. You have an answer. Sit down, go plan your novel, and wait. Fri, 21 Oct 2011 00:50:17 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_148287 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_148287 tiakall Hm. This was one in reply to cirrus. Threading fail. Fri, 21 Oct 2011 00:50:54 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_148299 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_148299 Athildur I guess one of the issues here that you and some others see it as pointless, whereas we do not. Regardless, the claims have been made and we wait. (PS: That thing you quoted? That would indicate that OLL would not be liable for any harm or damages caused by, say, selling an item at a meeting. Which kind of solidifies our 'what's the big deal?' question.) PS: My MLs know that I've got no issue with them and that I appreciate the effort they put in. I never asked them any direct questions. If they choose to argue for OLLs sake, then they can expect me to argue back with what I feel is right. If they wished to stay out of it, then perhaps they should not have replied. Quite frankly, I don't see how 'whining' (because apparently you can't complain and restate your point if someone argues against it without it being labeled as 'whining'. I'm sorry you don't agree with me but that doesn't make my point any less valid) about a rule or regulation in the 'rules and regulations' forum is really this out of place. Aside from that, since this discussion was (more or less) already going I might as well add in a word or two. At least if I make a public post it cannot be so easily ignored or denied without proper argumentation (and, dealing with many institutions in the past, that happens a lot). I was actually planning to wait and see what happened. In fact, I'd be perfectly willing to see what they will come up with as a final judgment, whether it's something I agree with or not. The only reason I would continue to argue or add to this thread was if someone gave me reason to. Like you just did. It's kind of a vicious cycle, you see. So, I do agree. Let's wait and see if OLL's legal department can come up with a definitive answer. And then perhaps we can all sit back down and enjoy NaNo. Fri, 21 Oct 2011 03:27:37 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_150628 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_150628 Athildur I'll say to you what I said to bookworm below. I reply to posts in this discussion because there is something to discuss, or something I disagree with that I would like to vocalize. If you'd like me to sit down and be quiet, I'm perfectly willing to do this if everyone would please stop replying to our posts trying to dismiss our opinions as being invalid or insignificant. I'll be sitting down now. And waiting. Perhaps this can soon be resolved and then we can all go back to our normal pre-NaNo rituals. Fri, 21 Oct 2011 03:31:08 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_150680 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_150680 Athildur Whoops I meant what I said to mattkinsi, not bookworm. Apologies. Fri, 21 Oct 2011 03:32:08 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_150696 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_150696 Athildur Hey bookworm, thanks for trying to explain. I do agree that America is a mess when it comes to doing 'ordinary' things and suddenly the whole state department's all up in your business because you needed five permits and a note from the Attorney General to sell candy from your lawn. I get why NaNo/OLL needs to be careful. And I understand US law can become complicated. But while OLL operates from the US, they do not directly operate the meetings, nor do they hire or officially sanction or endorse anyone who would attempt to barter at such meetings. So when such meetings take place, and this barter does happen, I don't see how they could be liable. Especially given that the meeting, people and any possible business are all judged under (in our case) Dutch law, not US law. But, like I've mentioned before. OLL's legal department will know a lot more on the subject than we do, so we'll just wait and see what they have to say. Fri, 21 Oct 2011 03:37:25 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_150781 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_150781 BillPatt Dear Athildur, I wanted to wait until I had some quiet in order to properly answer the issues raised here. So, there might be some repetition in what I am writing here. I apologize in advance. This will be both an omnibus answer, and the (hopefully) last post I will make in this thread - I have a Region that I am currently ignoring so that I can answer the questions of people thousands of miles away. Again, I am not a part of OLL, nor of staff. I am a participant in NaNo since 2007, and this is my first year of ML. Construing my comments to be OLL gospel would be incorrect. So, let's get to it. [quote=Athildur]I believe the central issue is not necessarily whether selling your work is or isn't more important than reaching those 50k. In fact, I don't even think reaching the 50k is the topmost priority. The priority should be to come together and have fun as a community, and to promote writing as a skill and art form, and motivate everyone who likes to do that.[/quote] I strongly disagree. The name of this whole gymkhana is "National Novel Writing Month". The first word is somewhat obsolete, since it's now international, but the writing of a novel in a month is still so central that the name remains. In my mind, 50k in 30 days is the First Principle of this site. This unfortunately subordinates all other activites to that of writing the novel. To me, you appear to have it backwards: the florishing of the community is more important than the 50k. [[quote=Athildur]Anyone can register on the website and write 50k in a month. . . but is that really the true NaNo experience one should strive for? [/quote] <strong>Frankly, yes!</strong> Oh, when you have four or five NaNo's under your belt, it gets to be old hat, true. But that's when you challenge yourself. Go for 100k. Or become an ML. Whatever is necessary to keep the goal something for which you have to strive. To subordinate the objective goal of winning to the subjective goal of having fun is a disservice to the newer wrimos, in my humble opinion. This is what I mean by communitarianism. To you, and, I believe SeriousCirrus, the community aspects of NaNo are far more important than the individual goals of writing a 50k novel. Most people have never written that quantity of prose before. NaNo is a challenge, no more, and no less: write 50k in 30 days. When you have a eighty percent fail rate, overall, you can understand why the goal is to get more people to win. As others have said, there is no "flat-out" ban. When you exaggerate the answer that was given, you are not helping your argument. Yes, it's a disappointment, but you're an adult. You can figure out something else to do to support the ML and enhance the top social event of the NaNo year. Besides, it's not a total ban - think of it as building for a better event next year. Lots of MLs (though not I) create 'goodie bags', spending a significant amount of time and money on them. They then give the bags away. If you believe your products will enhance the NaNo experience so much, why not give them away? It's a thought. I admit to significant confusion. Sometimes, it seems like the 'vendor table' is a long-standing custom, other times, it's never been done before. As the only 'item' that was specifically mentioned in this long-running thread was HannahK's 2010 NaNoNovel, I tend to believe the latter. If I am wrong, please tell me. I fail to see how the absense of a vendor table where there has never been one before is such a disaster for the KOParty. Regarding "protection". I have no doubt that nearly all of the participants can protect themselves. It has to do more with ensuring a positive environment focussed on the 50k challenge and the elimination of any reason that would keep people away. An important point. You say "I think every ML would have the necessary insight to answer these questions themselves." I don't know your ML, but I understand this is their first year, yet you desire total omniscience about OLL, NaNo, and all possible questions that would arise. I don't think I know it all - that would be irresponsibly arrogant of me. ===========on to the next post by =========== Regarding business, the IRS, and US Tax Code: I was highlighting how the US tax code, which only applies to US citizens wherever they are in the world, plus those non-citizens living in the US, Puerto Rico, and the Territories, would view a vendor table. I believe I expressed that in the phrase "participants that live in the United States". Perhaps that proviso did not register with you. I most assuredly did not mean to imply that you, as a Dutchman, would be subject to US tax rules. Unfortunately, it also renders moot most of the rest of your post. A couple of things I want to touch on, though. "Selling something doesn't make you a business" If you (in the US) are selling a single thing, once, then under US Code, you may become liable for capital gains tax, or, if the item is expensive enough, gift tax. There's also sales tax, and tax for good purchased from out of state. Realistically, if I sell my Stairmaster to my buddy, no, I am not a business and actually miss most of the above list as well. Except sales tax. In theory. " I cannot believe that anyone who's ever sold anything 2nd hand over ebay is a business." Less than three kilometers from me is a business with a big green sign, in mall, that says "Sell it on eBay!". They most assuredly are a business. Now, if I sold that Stairmaster myself over eBay, no, I am not a business. Let's say, though, that I had a couple of boxes of books from when I ordered a print run of one of my NaNoNovels, and was selling them out of the trunk of my car. In an audit, the IRS would most certainly classify that activity as a business. You're going to have to trust me on this. Like I said waaaay above - I prepared 1000 returns as a professional tax preparer. Now, let's look at your vendor table. Maybe you don't have business taxes and certainly not US taxes. However, there are local taxes. In the European Union, aren't you subject to at least a 19 percent Value Added Tax, collected at the point of sale? That's the Netherlands rate, the Belgium rate is 21 percent. Now, that could be a real problem for the ML. I can easily envision a scenario where the ML becomes liable for the unremitted VAT on all sales. Indeed, in your previous post, you made the point that the ML, not OLL, 'ran things'. Now, I am not well versed in VAT; it's been 22 years since I had to pay one, but I suspect that the proposed goods qualify. Is it any wonder that the ML is really reluctant to take on that sort of liability? Would you? In your next post, you say "an individual chose to do business at a meeting". This might be verbal shorthand for "setting up a vendor table that will enhance the experience of the KOP and TGIOP". Given the tenor of the posts by HannahK, SeriousCirrus and yourself, it would seem that you three are invested in the idea of conducting business at an event that should be centered around the beginning of a 30 day challenge. You say that you are upset with the way that the matter has been handled. Fair enough. For all I know, sitting here five time zones away, the ML or OLL may have totally screwed up the conflict resolution part of it. However, you are not covering yourselves with glory when there are gratuitous shots at things American. You have made your points, now it is time to await OLL's guidance. I have spent now at least an hour crafting this response, rereading it for reasonableness and accuracy. I have invested close to ten hours, all told, on my posts. I have read every post in this thread, many several times to ensure I fully understand the points under discussion. I have refrained from personal, cultural, and national attacks, since that would not advance the discussion. I believe that you three are just as careful in your reading and posting. I am (almost) done, and I believe there is little left to say on either side. I recommend that we work on our novels and await the OLL decision. That is what reasonable adults do when they have a case on appeal. All the best, Bill ps - I want to answer the "legal background" query in one last short post. Are the guidelines, terms and conditions completely airtight? No. The theory here is that where guidance is lacking, adults can disagree while seeking an amicable solution. Like it or not, OLL has decided that they need some time to examine the situation before they sanction your vendor table. At this point, you can either acquiesce to their decision, Fri, 21 Oct 2011 03:52:34 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_150969 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_150969 BillPatt "Legal background or knowhow" response. Qualifications: 12 credit hours of Law, a required course in the US Military Academy, covering all aspects of Constitutional Law, with a section on tort law. 6.5 years at various levels of command in the US military, where I was responsible for following and administering the Uniform Code of Military Justice to soldiers under my command. 6 years of hands on experience as a professional income tax preparer, handling more than 1000 tax returns without a single one being subject to audit. No, I am not a lawyer. Or a tax attorney. But I have a fascination for the law and tax code. Facts of the case: OLL sponsors NaNoWriMo, an internet-based challenge to write 50k words in 30 days. To further that goal, Regions have been created for the purpose of group participation and support. Municipal Liaisons are assigned to Regions, with a requirement to hold a KickOff Party, a TGIO Party, and to monitor the Regional Forums. OLL is the final arbiter of all disputes. See the NaNoWriMo.org site for Terms and Conditions, FAQs, and other rules. A query for guidance in creating a vendor table at the KickOff Party was posted to the Rules Forum. The original query dealt with the question of what constituted a proper donation: total remittances, or net profit. OLL issued a "Not yet" injunction to the requestors. Why would OLL do this? These are the leading possibilities 1. Concerns about the imposition of a negative character or climate to the event (ie, salesman or peer pressure to purchase, questions about what part of the profits get donated to OLL) 2. Concerns about potential liabilities, arising from any tortiary nexus. 3. Concerns about the tax implications of sales. 4. Detraction from the central purpose of the KOP/TGIO. ----------NOTE: The above are pure speculation on my part. I have no knowledge of the workings of OLL. Here's the completion of that dangling paragraph from above (sorry!) Are the guidelines, terms and conditions completely airtight? No. The theory here is that where guidance is lacking, adults can disagree while seeking an amicable solution. Like it or not, OLL has decided that they need some time to examine the situation before they sanction your vendor table. At this point, you can either acquiesce to their decision, defy the ban and have your table anyway, refuse to participate in the KOP, or become schismatic. The choice is yours. Personally, I would await the final decision of OLL before I did anything. Good luck, Bill Fri, 21 Oct 2011 04:17:16 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=2#forum_thread_comment_151284 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=2#forum_thread_comment_151284 seriouscirrus First of all 21 percent isn't the only tax rate we have in belgium, we also have 6 percents (on books and all things you need to live), 12 percent and then 21 percent. I would like to know how much permits you need to obtain in Amerika before you can even setup a Kickoff, at a public place. Are there also lawyers coming with you to an event, to assure that you don't do anything illegal? Here in Ho/Be region, we don't need a permit for anything. We can do this, without having to regulate anything. We just need permission of the store-owner that's it. So for the 100rd time already: don't try to compare us Belgians and Dutchmen to Americans, because our laws aren't the same, and our mentallity isn't. Fri, 21 Oct 2011 12:29:05 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=2#forum_thread_comment_154663 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=2#forum_thread_comment_154663 Forestone cirrus they know that too. they are just trying to explain something and using the American law as an example. ofcours there's a culture difference and the laws are different, but they are trying to explain stuff according to the american law. they don't know the law (besides probably from the basic humand rights and stuf) of the Netherlands or Belgiud because of the simple fact they didn't had to deal directly with it. must citizens don't even know the complete lawbook of the Netherlands or Belgium because it's a very big book (I believe there are two books in the netherlands, but I can be wrong here) that know one except lawyers know, and they still need to look up stuff. and as said by Bill before, we'll need to wait what the definete answer will be from OLL. Fri, 21 Oct 2011 13:11:53 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=2#forum_thread_comment_154856 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=2#forum_thread_comment_154856 Athildur Dear Bill, thanks again for spending time on a long and extensive post. And I do apologise for missing that proviso, I did indeed not consciously register it when reading your post. It's not that I don't trust your knowledge of US Taxes. I have no personal experience, and you most definitely have. I was trying to profess my disbelief at how this works, if my wording was taking on a whole other meaning I must apologise for that. To make something clear: I have nothing to sell. I have never sold anything and I do not plan on ever selling anything (at KO/TGIO parties or even during NaNo). HannahK's product might be her NaNovel from last year (I'm not sure what she did last year for NaNo), but it's a comic book with NaNo/writing inspired funny stories (which she has done in previous years as well, publishing them online for free). In any case, I'm not specifically arguing for her. While I do believe she should have the right to sell something like that (that is to say, we should have the right to fill in our KO however we like), I do understand the concern of 'commercialising' NaNo and marketing becoming a more dominant tone over the writing itself. I think you are correct in seeing that this is most likely a cultural difference, where we see different goals and different means (the 'jabs' at anything American are simply us seeing how something seemingly goes in the US, and those kinds of ideas would be completely foreign to us. It's not that we don't like America, sometimes we just really don't understand). Neither of us is wrong, per say. And the OLL does have final say, and I would not dare to ignore the rules they set. But just because I follow the rules doesn't always mean I have to like them. In this one thread I'm venting my displeasure, and once OLL makes the decision that will be that, until they consider reviewing the case. Anyway, thanks again for taking the time to reply. I sincerely hope you and all your wrimos have a very succesful NaNo experience this year. Fri, 21 Oct 2011 16:00:22 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_156171 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_156171 Dragonchilde Just to let you know, please, do not let this situation detract from your ability to do NaNo. We have a LOT going on, and I don't think it's going to be a quick resolution. I can't guarantee it will be before NaNo starts, or ends, and I can't comment on when a decision will be made. I've passed the information to the people who need it, and the decision is in their hands... and they are insanely busy people. Fri, 21 Oct 2011 16:49:07 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_156679 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_156679 dancingfool Let me stick my nose in, and add my two cents. By the way, I AM an attorney, although I don't practice business law, or tax law... just a divorce lawyer. Nonetheless, I feel compelled to point something out. This was NOT a case of someone selling something, and Chris Baty, or Dragonchilde, or someone else from OLL coming over and saying "You must quit selling that." As I read the postings, it's not even a matter of someone announcing that they were going to sell something, and OLL came forward and said "Don't do that." To those of you questioning OLL's efforts to control something outside of the country, and questioning the assertion that OLL bears some risk of liability for something happening outside of the country, I suspect you are envisioning one of those scenarios I've listed above. And I would largely agree that the US taxing entities and other powers that be, do NOT expect OLL to police things, to that degree, in order to make sure that no one runs afoul of US law. However, what happened here, is very different. Someone asked "Can we do X?" And you're now unhappy that the answer is not "Yes." If OLL were to endorse/approve the requested action, the US powers that be WOULD be unhappy. Although the powers that be would not hold OLL responsible for keeping tabs on each event, including those outside the country, OLL would be held responsible for telling someone it was perfectly ok to do something that is contrary to US law. Hope this helps. Fri, 21 Oct 2011 17:41:40 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=2#forum_thread_comment_157214 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=2#forum_thread_comment_157214 NJC Thank you for the cogent post. Fri, 21 Oct 2011 19:20:13 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_158452 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_158452 NJC There is one thing that nobody has mentioned. What about the venue? Is the Kick-Off/TGIO/write-in held in a place of business? I believe this is usually the case. I know our Kick-Off/TGIO parties are held in local restaurants. If I were the owner/manager of the restaurant, I would not want anyone selling anything (even for charity) on my premises without my express permission as I am the one who has paid the business taxes, property taxes, and overhead for the location. Also, as the owner/manager, I would be responsible for everything that happens there, including things I had not approved. If the venue is a private home then the homeowner would make the final decision, but a place of business should be off limits for such things out of respect for the business itself. I would hate to have businesses ban WriMos because of this kind of activity. Regardless of the legal issues, I believe that having any form of sales (even for just donations) at an event would detract from the experience for me. I go to these events for writing, not to peruse things I don't want or need. Yes, I am free to ignore them, but they tend to distract many people in a group who then have to talk about it for quite a while. This makes it very difficult for the group to get down to the business of writing. I do not mind the ML putting out a jar for voluntary donations to help cover the rental cost of the room, for example, with the remainder going to OLL. Just my two cents worth. Fri, 21 Oct 2011 21:36:49 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=2#forum_thread_comment_160112 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=2#forum_thread_comment_160112 Coffeetailor Still waiting an an answer for this if someone could get back to me on it. Sat, 22 Oct 2011 08:08:07 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_167172 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_167172 Athildur It won't stop me from going full blast on NaNo, don't worry :) Thanks for your concern. Sat, 22 Oct 2011 12:44:15 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_168262 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_168262 raeble Are we reading the same page? It says that the deductions are limited which means that you do get to deduct expenses. It just says you aren't allowed to deduct losses. Thu, 27 Oct 2011 21:15:07 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_251543 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_251543 Dragonchilde Folks, I just want to be clear about something here. We're not avoiding this answer to be difficult, or annoy you, and we can't really give any kind of further answer on this right now because we are a 501(c)3 non-profit, and we can't do anything that could potentially risk that status. Because tax laws are so complex, and we are NOT tax lawyers, and if we lose that status, NaNoWriMo as you know it is effectively over (we rely on that status to survive), we are waiting until we can consult with those who DO know. It may be that nothing here could potentially risk anything, but I don't want to take that risk, because I don't know. We won't be giving any further official answers on this matter for the time being because of this. As we're currently in full-swing with the event right now, we won't be able to get to this question until after the event is over. I can't give you any kind of specific timetable on when we will be able to revisit the issue, as there's a lot of things going on right now. The information/question has been given to the right people, so that's all we'll be able to tell you for now. Thu, 27 Oct 2011 22:28:46 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=2#forum_thread_comment_252743 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=2#forum_thread_comment_252743 VijayC And I thought that our British Health &amp; safety culture was bad. Boy am I glad I don't live in the US; the situation you've just described is just *expletive deleted* dumb. Fri, 28 Oct 2011 10:38:34 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_260358 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=1#forum_thread_comment_260358 VijayC Or more succinctly, American tax law and sue happy leagal culture is dumb... ;p Fri, 28 Oct 2011 10:45:40 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=2#forum_thread_comment_260398 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=2#forum_thread_comment_260398 Lousy Writer 13 [quote=VijayC] Or more succinctly, American tax law and sue happy leagal culture is dumb... ;p [/quote] Well, as someone who lives here, I'd say it's "unfortunate", perhaps. Or "complicated". But mostly, just "different" from what you might be used to. It's not anywhere near as stifiling or difficult to handle as the comments in this thread may imply. Fri, 28 Oct 2011 12:48:56 +0100 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=2#forum_thread_comment_261069 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=2#forum_thread_comment_261069 writinginmyhead To have a KO party or a TGIO party in general, we can just show up to a restaurant and have it. We don't need any permits. Now we might want to get a banquet room since we have a larger group of people and don't want to disturb other diners with our volume--like when we have everyone take a turn and introduce themselves. I like to use places that have a large patio eating area so it won't be as much of a bother since we are outdoors. --Living in sunny Southern California helps make outdoor eating in late October and early December more comfortable than it might be in other areas. Mon, 31 Oct 2011 03:27:02 +0000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=2#forum_thread_comment_312394 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=2#forum_thread_comment_312394 seductiveserenade Wow, learnt a lot reading this thread. Bill's posts for the win :) Just feel kind of bad things are so complicated with this issue. Sun, 04 Dec 2011 07:26:29 +0000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=2#forum_thread_comment_930947 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/rules-regulations-and-other-minutiae/threads/3060?page=2#forum_thread_comment_930947