Hyper-specific details, wonky? http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/47824 Mo® When you're reading book, does it bug you when the author is hyper specific about the stuff that a character is driving/drinking? This is usually in the context of the hyper-rich villain, but you see it with old cagey guys too. Example: [quote]Dirk Diabolica ran his hands through his hair and watched the men put the finishing touches on his underground lair of evil. He sipped his celebratory scotch, a 1958 McCallum, and licked his lips. It wouldn't be long now. Tebow's power would be his.[/quote] I actually wrote almost this exact thing. My super-villain is playing blackjack in Macau and drinks some expensive scotch which I call out by name. But just this morning I was reading a book and (wait for it) the super-villain was having dinner with some hot broad and he called out the scotch the villain was drinking and the Chateau Y'quem that the broad was drinking. It irritated me. I know the point is too... actually I have no idea what the point is. That the author can use Wikipedia? That his scotch knowledge owns yours? Showing the that rich super-villain is rich? Mon, 12 Dec 2011 12:04:37 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/47824?page=1#forum_thread_comment_965740 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/47824?page=1#forum_thread_comment_965740 golfgal08 It's to show how rich someone is, or how refined their tastes are. Drinking a 1953 Dom Perignon shows a lot more class than drinking a 2007 Kendall Jackson. It shows that the character is someone who cares about that sort of thing, cares about the impression they leave with others. You would be far less impressed by James Bond if you saw him drinking the same thing you could buy at your local discount liquor store. Mon, 12 Dec 2011 12:39:01 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/47824?page=1#forum_thread_comment_965841 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/47824?page=1#forum_thread_comment_965841 RobertLent I would attempt to work it into something the character does, says or thinks rather than simply describing it. "This will not do, Igor," said the villain, waving is hand disdainfully at the bottle of 1961 Generic, "bring me the 1958 McCallum. This is my moment of triumph, and only the best will suffice." You could also do this by inner monologue, having the villain look over his elaborate array of fine liquor. Or in the case of the villain attempting to impress his date, you could work this description into the dialogue as well as he orders it, or he can talk about it once it arrives. It makes the character look like a snob, someone who cares to only have the finest, and cares that everyone knows he has the finest. It gives a better reason to for the description of the scotch. Mon, 12 Dec 2011 13:18:12 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/47824?page=1#forum_thread_comment_965933 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/47824?page=1#forum_thread_comment_965933 lasalle202 Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't. I tossed "Venus Envy" out the window at chapter 2 because of all of the brand name dropping. But fiction writing is in the specific details. I forget which author gives the advice that you NEVER have a character see someone "walking their dog" in a novel - "dog" is too generic. But rather "walking their miniature toy poodle" or "walking their Great Dane" or whatever - the specificity helps create character. Mon, 12 Dec 2011 13:19:13 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/47824?page=1#forum_thread_comment_965937 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/47824?page=1#forum_thread_comment_965937 DozyCat It works if the character would notice the details. A hyper fashion conscious woman is going to notice that the cartier watch her assistant is wearing is a fake. She's going to notice that the seats of her boyfriend's car are real leather, while she might not notice the model and she might not care about brand beyond BMW. And a rich old villain is going to take extra special notice of his scotch. But when I see that same villain noticing that Damsel in Distress is wearing Chanel No. 5, I wonder why. Tue, 13 Dec 2011 03:42:49 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/47824?page=1#forum_thread_comment_968767 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/47824?page=1#forum_thread_comment_968767 Marxist The common reader does not know the significance of a 1958 McCallum, any better than calling it a 1958 bottle of nice scotch, or, well-aged scotch. When you choose specific details, I think you have to take into consideration who you want to be reading your work. For work to be "timeless," it should be readable by people of any culture. When you're picking specific details, consider what it is that's so important about that item; extract that meaning from it, and apply it to an item in a more general way. So, in other words, not all readers know the types of scotches, perfumes, and sports cars, but they know fancy, slick, fast, etc., and they know the type of people who consume those types of items. But then it comes to dogs, you could probably assume they'll know what a Great Dane is. Maybe you'll have to change dachshund into "a wiener dog" or something. It's up to you. Wed, 14 Dec 2011 07:38:38 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/47824?page=1#forum_thread_comment_972035 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/47824?page=1#forum_thread_comment_972035 keolah This is based on the fallacy that writing can or should be "timeless". I can't stand the idea that everything should be kept so vague that the story could take place in any place at any time. On the contrary, stories have wound up celebrated for accurate and striking depictions of the time and place they're set in, even when they did nothing more than depict the world as it was when the story was written, or depict the place where the author was from. Wed, 14 Dec 2011 13:14:42 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/47824?page=1#forum_thread_comment_972620 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/47824?page=1#forum_thread_comment_972620 Marxist Like I said, it's up to you. I wasn't insisting that all writers must shoot for "timeless" work. Personally, I prefer to write this way. Not because I think it is vague, but rather for quite the opposite reason, not all readers know what is implied by the word Gucci, but they do understand "$200.00 sunglasses," so in a way, it's more accurate. I think what makes a work timeless is that it appeals to an audience of any place or time period, and not necessarily when the setting seems to exist in some over-generalized vacuum. I've read many great works where the exact place and time are designated, and some where time and place don't matter, some where the place is a fantasy land. It doesn't seem to matter. So basically, I think writing should be timeless, (AKA: good) but there is a common fallacy about what constitutes a timeless work. Wed, 14 Dec 2011 19:59:00 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/47824?page=1#forum_thread_comment_973695 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/47824?page=1#forum_thread_comment_973695 Notkieran You can't be hyperspecific about every single detail anyway, so what you can do is make it work for you: the things you are hyperspecific about are the things that are important to the person whose point of view it is. Wed, 28 Dec 2011 08:11:10 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/47824?page=1#forum_thread_comment_1006247 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/47824?page=1#forum_thread_comment_1006247 beanza3 You have a flaw in your logic. "...it appeals to an audience of any place or time period." A person 200 years ago will probably not know what a wiener dog is, nor will one 200 years from now. 200 years from now, people may not even know what a Tiger is. Or baseball. Or watch. The idea of timeless is flawed in itself. Did I know who Kurt Colbane was in About a Boy? No. Do I know anything about a moor? No. I could go on. Did this stop me from enjoying Nick Hornby's writing, or Emily Dickson's poetry? No. I got that Kurt was a dead celebrety. I got that the moor is a sad place in England. :D It doesn't matter whether they *know* the brand of wine or not, it sounds fancy, I can assume it's wine, and that it's probably fancy/expensive wine. Nothing else is needed to enjoy the story. I don't find fault with writers who don't want to date their work (though I find the practice time consuming and tiring). I find fault when they want it to be avaiable for an audience of any place or time period, when that's impossible. Is Back to the Future dated? Complelety. Is it still a great movie series/book series? Yes. Just my 2 cents. Wed, 28 Dec 2011 23:14:19 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/47824?page=1#forum_thread_comment_1008055 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/47824?page=1#forum_thread_comment_1008055 Marxist You're vastly underestimating the future reader's knowledge if you really do think they won't know what a tiger or a baseball is. For the same reasons that you know what a phonograph is, even though you probably don't use one and hardly ever see one. As for your ability to infer characteristics from a brand name that sounds like fancy wine, there are obviously plenty of contextual clues that the author included. So, in this instance, the author's choice to use a brand name didn't hurt. I don't know about you but I've read old books where I can't understand what's going on because the prose is too closed off to readers of other times and cultures. I admit, this is splitting hairs and it doesn't flaw the work that much, but I stand by what I said. If a reader is confused by something the author means to be clear about, then the author has made a mistake. Consider having to choose between using 'Facebook' or 'a social networking site.' I feel certain that social networking websites will be very common in the next 200 years, but I am not so certain that Facebook will always be the center hub of social networking like it is now, so I'd rather use the latter term. What's more important when discussing what makes a work timeless is probably outside the topic of this thread, but it so happens that "Back to the Future" may be a great example of a movie that IS timeless. Like I said, a specific setting and time doesn't limit who the film can entertain. What matters is the obstacles characters overcome and their emotional involvement--their struggles and their victories. The problems Marty Mcfly deals with are not specifically 1985 problems, they are human problems, conveyed through many symbols--some of which relate to 1985; some of which are made up. No one knew what a flux capacitor was before watching the movie, but it's conveyed in a way that can be understood. Compare the quality of this movie to, say, a video blog where someone talks for two hours about their personal drama. So, with all that said, I know I misused the word "timeless" the first time in my previous post, but that paragraph above explains it, as I see it. If a work of fiction is extremely good, then it will always be, for a long, long time. Don't you guys know how old certain works of fiction are? Fri, 30 Dec 2011 23:10:13 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/47824?page=1#forum_thread_comment_1013192 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/47824?page=1#forum_thread_comment_1013192 sbhsdgd96 Only if the reader happens to know that a 1953 Dom Perignon is classier than a 2007 Kendall Jackson. Sat, 07 Jan 2012 14:54:16 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/47824?page=1#forum_thread_comment_1039310 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/47824?page=1#forum_thread_comment_1039310 sbhsdgd96 For the most part, I have no interest in the details - don't usually understand the point the writer is trying to get across. However, if one of the character is extremely fashion conscious, it makes sense to describe the fashions around them in detail when it's that person's pov - I may not understand what is being described, but I get that it's part of this person's character to notice those things. On the flip side, when a forty-year-old truck driver starts noticing the designer labels someone is wearing, I think the writing is just trying to show off - unless it has been established that the truck driver is overly fashion conscious. Sat, 07 Jan 2012 15:00:39 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/47824?page=1#forum_thread_comment_1039318 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/47824?page=1#forum_thread_comment_1039318 Earthsick The only time I saw something like this was in 'American Psycho', where it served the purpose of showing how fixiated the main character is on brands and in 'Twelve' where the author tried doing it like in 'American Psycho' but failed miserably because he didn't pull it through and the descriptions were only half-heartly. (Come again, teenstar.) I guess it's fine if it serves a purpose. Otherwise ... oh, author knows about brands in the real world without it having any influence on the storyline. Mon, 16 Jan 2012 04:35:39 -0500 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/47824?page=1#forum_thread_comment_1064132 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/47824?page=1#forum_thread_comment_1064132