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Things that all writers should know

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AlyRuth
17968 words so far

Here's a little thread I've been thinking of, we compile a list of basic things that all writers, new or old, should know. They can be basic mistakes or huge ones. I'll start with three:

1. Don't have your character look in the mirror and describe himself. Your character doesn't notice what he sees everyday, so it shouldn't be in your narrative. He'll notice the unzipped zipper, the spot on his shirt, or the hair out of place. Not his hazel eyes and brown, curly hair.

2. Eek! I hate to drop this bomb on you, but--BOOM! Please don't use onomatopoeias! It makes me want to--VROOM--run my car into something large and immovable! CRASH! Or maybe go jump in a river. Sploosh! But for now I'll just go slam the door in my writing studio--SLAM--and sulk. Sigh...

3. Do reality checks on each scene. A lot of times I'll read stories or watch movies where I'm asking myself, "Why didn't they just do X?" where X is the most obvious thing in the world to any human being, but your characters chose Y so you could write a gripping scene. The most common example is the frail, helpless lady going down in the basement do see why her friend is screaming and blood is dripping out from under the door in a horror movie.

Do you have any suggestions for new or old authors?

Josie Cloos
52385 words so far Winner!

I agree with the reasoning behind number one but if the character has a reason to be noticing and naming their features then it's all good. I once had a character, who was very beautiful. All the guys wanted her and though she wasn't complaining there was a scene where she was looking in the mirror, wondering what they were seeing that she wasn't. I don't remember the exact way it went but it was something like "What was it? My eyes, I'll admit are a pretty shade of blue, but they're almost too far apart. My long blonde hair would be an asset if not for it being so life less. My nose, pretty much almost too big for my face...the scene ended with her again questioning what was it? It was told in first person and she had good reason for looking intently at herself and stating what she was seeing.

I also agree with the reasoning behind #3 but again, if there's a good reason. Maybe the frail woman isn't the brightest watt in the bulb or she has an over powering curiosity about things. Of course this should be established well before said scene but if it is, her going to check out what the screaming and blood is all about would be the obvious thing for her to do.

My advice would be, if you're going to go against the guidlines and I highly recommend doing so whenever you can, do it intelligently.

Saheen
26699 words so far

The thing about 3, though is, we all do that when we're watching (for example) horror films. "Why are you doing that?! Don't go in there! Why does nobody ever call the police?" , and yeah, you could see it as lazy writing, but it's also a defining part of the genre that characters always make the wrong decision. Otherwise, well, there would be no movie, would there?

I'm not saying you should have your characters fall into every obvious trap that comes their way, but in the end a lot of the dramatic tension in stories comes from the mistakes characters make. Have you ever read a book/seen a movie where the characters did everything right? I think that would probably be a pretty boring story.

TheGildedFox
50080 words so far Winner!

I would agree with this, especially for horror movies. I mean, come on, if all the characters just avoided the dark alleys and basements and haunted mental hospitals, then we wouldn't HAVE any horror movies.

However, its important that when these characters make stupid moves, that you acknowledge somehow, through some sort of dramatic device that they are acting stupidly. Too many times, I see characters that the narrator/author has repeatedly described as intelligent, smart, quick-witted and brave doing nothing but stupid things just so that they can have a gripping scene. THAT's lazy writing.

Stupid characters can do stupid things, but we have to be able to trust that the narrator/author is just as aware of their stupidity as we are. If I'm watching a movie thinking "Uh oh, he's gonna go in the basement, I KNEW he was gonna be the first to die..." then you can say the writer accomplished his job. But if I'm sitting there thinking "Did the writer seriously expect us to just forget that the dead man in the passenger seat has the keys to the car in his pocket just so the main heroine can hotwire the car just to show off how awesome she is while the bad guys are catching up with them?" then there's a problem.

In other words, go through every decision your characters make and ask yourself, "Is this really what my character would do in this situation or am I just playing puppeteer?"

AlyRuth
17968 words so far

I should clarify on that example. Your characters should not ALWAYS choose Y. Everyone makes stupid decisions occasionally. Everyone'also makes intelligent decisions occasionally also. You can lead the poor, frail lady down into the basement, but make her do SOMETHING intelligent eventually. Part of writing good characters in, obviously making them three-dimensional, and thus, life-like.

Therefore, I'm not suggestion that you write your characters perfect and all-knowing 100% of the time, because, as I said, everyone makes mad decisions. It's part of being human. So make your characters human (unless they're unicorns), and give them good decisions and bad decisions.


Also, I'm posting this part for clarification, as pointed out by 9308495840 people, these should be taken as guidelines. Not rules. As I called them above, they're suggestions. Consider them in your writing (maybe not till after the NaNo), and apply if you think they're necessarily.

AlyRuth
17968 words so far

Ignore all the typos, pretty please. :)

MikeAlx
50189 words so far Winner!

Surely the point is this: if a character does something dumb, give them sufficient motivation. It doesn't have to be a reason that would make *anyone* do it - it only has to work for the character. So, if they know it's dangerous to go down to the basement, establish that they're someone who's frequently overcome by their curiosity. They know it's dangerous, but they can't help themselves. Their behaviour may be dumb, but it's *consistent* with their character.

We all know people who are excessively impulsive; we all know people who are ridiculously cautious. Both traits will, in different situations, cause behaviour that Jo Average might think stupid. It may seem *stupid*, but if the character is established properly, it won't seem *implausible*.

writer_mercia
50292 words so far Winner!

Like Harry Potter. He KNOWS he shouldn't have gone all these dark, dangerous places without an adult, and yet he does it anyway. Every single time. :P It's just part of his character. If he passed up on an opportunity to do something heroically stupid, we'd wonder what happened to him.

LaparaLaela
18807 words so far

I swear that made me laugh out loud right in the middle of my computer class where I'm supposed to be writing an essay. That is so true it's not even funny.

keegan139
25918 words so far

To add to this:

a lot of what characters do in a horror movie that we call stupid is actually logical. We all yell at the little old lady for going down into the basement while we're watching, yet if you heard a friend cry out in real life, most of us would go to check on them.
One of the best examples of this, I think, is when the power goes out. Any time the power goes out in a horror movie, the audience starts yelling that the character is stupid to go check out what happened, because of course the killer is waiting for them. Well, when the power goes out in my apartment, I go down to the basement to fix it. Do I stop to think that it's part of some maniac's plan to get me, or that maybe some monster cut the wires? Of course I do, I'm a writer, after all. But I go anyway, 'cause I'm not spending all night in the dark.

Spring14Idaho
50235 words so far Winner!

So true!

We heard noises outside our house the other night. In a horror film, you'd be screaming, "Don't go outside, you doofus!"

In real life, my husband grabbed the gun and checked it out. It was the neighbor's horse kicking the fence. But if it had been in my novel ...

E.Davis.Brown
50064 words so far Winner!

At least he grabbed a weapon before going to check, that's more than can be said for most horror movie characters...

Spring14Idaho
50235 words so far Winner!

Lucky me! I married a man who's smarter than "most" horror movie characters! :-)

... said laughingly.

***sorry, I just couldn't help, with the whole adverb argument going on!****

forlornshadow
50080 words so far Winner!

I like how you think. Part of the thing about horror movies is WE know what's going on THE CHARACTER has little to no clue. Sometimes the character might know a little bit like 'oh someone is after me.' but that's about it for everything else they have no idea.
I like to think through my characters, even if I'm in third person. Why? because it makes their actions a little more real. If my character needed to jump out of building for some reason I would first ask: is my character afraid of heights? If s/he is, then what in the world is making him or her jump out of the building in the first place? Can the jump be avoided? If not why? Then I think, what's going through my characters mind? Imagine the body language and then put it down on paper. Then I let my mind do the rest usually the character will face his or her fear. Sometimes not which leads to another thread of the possible story. which applies to horror stories and pretty much anything.

amaltheaa
24157 words so far

forlornshadow wrote:
I like how you think. Part of the thing about horror movies is WE know what's going on THE CHARACTER has little to no clue. Sometimes the character might know a little bit like 'oh someone is after me.' but that's about it for everything else they have no idea.


I actually like to joke about this. I watch a lot of murder mysteries on TV, and when I watch them with my friend we like to make jokes about what would happen if I was one of the actresses on the show.

"If you get the script and your name is Victim #2 or something like that, you DON'T FOLLOW THE SCRIPT. When it gets to the part right before your murder, do the opposite of what the script says and then just dance off the set!"

We also like to yell at the people on the shows/in the movies. "NO DON'T YOU KNOW WHAT KIND OF SHOW/MOVIE THIS IS EVERYONE DIES NOW YOU'RE GONNA DIE TOO UGH WAY TO GO YOU COULDN'T JUST NOT TALK TO HIM DIDN'T YOU SEE THE BEGINNING THEY SHOWED THAT HE WAS THE KILLER YOU KNOW."

Crepuscule
5356 words so far

Superman does everything right.

No it wasn't boring.

wombatrider
50489 words so far Winner!

I think I remember Amelia Atwater-Rhodes doing #1 in her first book she'd ever written/published. I think if it's YA, you might be able to get away with doing this. While reading it, I was like "hmmm... odd, but informative! I semi-like it!" It didn't throw me off. I think she was getting ready for school. Maybe if the character is annoyed with something that always seems to draw their attention while looking at themselves.

jefflion
52527 words so far Winner!

I agree it might work in YA, because teens are often preoccupied with their physical appearance and their body is changing.

Ok, now I'm making teens seem unreliable/shallow. Not all teens do it, of course. But I do think it's less strange for a teen to look herself in a mirror and think: "I wish my hair was a bit lighter; it's almost black so it makes me look too pale, like a ghost", than a woman in her 30s to do it.

(Horrible example. But you get the idea.)

Still, I do think "describing yourself while looking at the mirror" thing should be avoided.

jefflion
52527 words so far Winner!

in the mirror... Why don't we have "edit post" button?

Oh, another thing about using mirrors to describe characters- it's really difficult to do it without being "gimmicky" or strange. I even read a novel written in the third person that had a scene like this. I don't get it.

pegleg kitty
35000 words so far

Instead of looking in the mirror, she could be buying eye shadow. If she's an artist, she would know that the latest fad-packaging that touts blue for blue eyes fails color-theory - to bring out blue, go opposite on the color wheel, which is peach or maybe brown. Or, if she's a redhead, she could try on clothes and WHAT color left her washed out.

tab105
15552 words so far

I remember that scene in "In the Forests of the Night". Risika is doing that because she wants to make sure she rembembers how she looked as a human, and how she looks now after her reflection disappears.

DeanW93
50343 words so far Winner!

IN the novel im writing the now, it made sence for me to describe the character through looking at the mirror.
My MC suffered from amnesia so when he looks at himself in the mirror he looks around to see the man he once was and what kind of man he was in the past.

I agree that the MC isnt going to see himself all the itme therefore the amount of detail in his perspective can be limited but there are times when my MC looks back on a memory to where he is staring directly back at his old self, scrutinizing his movements and his appearance totetermin what kind of person he should be

karinlynn68
52389 words so far Winner!

Oh thank you, wombatrider, for writing that the mirror thing might work in YA. I just clicked on the forum link to see what was happening here, saw this post, read #1 and realized I'd written a mirror scene *just* last night. I groaned! I re-read what I wrote, however, and thought, "You know, when I was 12, I was constantly at the mirror evaluating, criticizing, noticing changes, noting things I liked."

Yes, I'm working on a YA novel, so I was somewhat relieved to read that there are others who feel this could work in YA. I wrote a rather large note to myself, though, to make sure when I revise to reconsider its use. But I think I might have "broken the guideline" appropriately, however, and I agree with the commenters here that in YA, it might work, especially as my character is evaluating her appearance in addition to describing, and then comparing herself to her best friend.

So, a question: in what other ways would you have a teen talk about the things she (or he) likes or does not like about his or her appearance? Isn't it kind of logical this happens in front of a mirror? Am I the only one that did this when I was a teen? How else would you approach a teen doing this sort of self-evaluation?

ASongInMyHead
51221 words so far Winner!

I don't know... I've read some books where onomatopoeias were used brilliantly (Patrick Ness's Chaos Walking trilogy, for example). I'd say don't use them unless you know fully how to get the sound across... pun intended.

rehtse
51000 words so far Winner!

Agreed. Ness's use of Onomatopoeia was brilliant. Add so much to that series.

Rae666
50051 words so far Winner!

Unfortunately, I think what you have here in your post is a case of badly used onomatopoeia. In well used onomatopoeia, the sound words are made separate from the text. Instead, they add to it. And really, you would be surprised just how many words are onomatopoeic and that sometimes, people don't even realise they're using them.

For example: "The spool fell from his grip, landing with a clatter and a splash in the bowl below."

Clatter and splash aren't separate from the text and they don't jump out at you. They're subtle words that allow the writer to use onomatopoeia to emphasise the noise made by the spoon.

Rae666
50051 words so far Winner!

*Edit: The sound words AREN'T made separate from the text. Damn nano for not having an edit button.

cityscapes101
50079 words so far Winner!

I always agreed with number one but I'm kind of confused as to how I can tell readers what my character looks like in a more interesting way. Here's what I wrote, I'm open to suggestions:
When I looked up, I couldn’t help observing myself in the mirror, because the face that looked back at me wasn’t something that could quite be defined. The face that stared back at me was the result of thousands of choices. And what had they made? My skin was still its tan, caramel, Nauset brown; my eyes were still as wide as they were intent in their deep milk chocolate shade. My hair was still wild and manic, the darkest of browns with few mahogany streaks here and there, the blanket of shoulder length curls framing my face. It was the face of normality, the face of purposelessness. Uselessness.

forlornshadow
50080 words so far Winner!

I actually like what you wrote, it's showing something inside your characters mind. Just stating the characters appearance is boring but you added something to it. It shows your character doesn't like his or her face and feels utterly useless. I think what #1 was talking about was something along the lines of:
He looked up in the mirror, dark green eyes and tousled blonde hair were staring back at him.
I think your writing above is done very well. There's more information in there than just your characters appearance.

Kimberly Dawn
50019 words so far Winner!

Everything can be broken if done well, but you won't know how that is done well until someone risks and does it.

And everyone writes differently.

I assert this is the only two rules you need and I shall demonstrate how this works.

1. Bianca pulled at her kinky hair, shamed that her hair was not straight like that of the rest of her class. Why couldn't it be straight? She wished it could be straight and it would behave like the long smooth locks of Linda. Her eyes didn't look that good.

Filter it through character POV. Done. The problem is the lack of selection or a mirror that happens to be there without the way the characters sees herself or how it changes. That's how you use a mirror.

2. Onomatopoeia can be used as part of regular speech. The car screeched around the corner. That's a whole lot better than "The car went around the corner very fast so it made a high pitched noise."

The cat meowed is better than the cat made a sound that was platative and medium pitched.

3. Characters are sometimes really that dumb or act that dumb on purpose (See Colombo). There are approximately 5%, I believe something like that in a fire scenario where they will physically go to check out the fire WITH the alarms going. Yes, people are that dumb. I know the phenomenon of the flying pig (or so my family dubs it) where people feel they need to stop and stare at an accident to see what happened. People also gather around police tape too and ask questions.

So yes, people are that dumb in real life, so I'll write characters that dumb.

For good character development they need to make dumb decisions once in a while. Fall behind their wants or their needs.

Any rule can be broken as long as it is done well. And if you try to break this rule, you create a paradox. It's a win.

Instead of saying what you shouldn't do, list a rule and show how to break it.

Mogget128723
51540 words so far Winner!

There are exceptions to the first rule you listed; for instance, a character with amnesia, or a character that has just come to life for the first time. My NaNo story this year begins with the main character, a living human that was artificially built, waking up with no knowledge of what she looks like and no memory of being awake before that moment. In cases similar to this, I believe it's acceptable for a character to notice their own basic features.

WastedVengeance
55245 words so far Winner!

Hmm, number one is debatable. It really depends on the situation. On any given day you wouldn't notice things like your eye or hair color, but if there were extensional circumstances then it might be okay. Like if the character had lost their memories or something like that then it would be appropriate to describe themselves in a mirror.
Number three is also very debatable. sometimes a character makes stupid decisions based on a myriad of different variable such as stress and other stuff.

Ashrazan
54427 words so far Winner!

Very nice answers, I have to admit I have done #1 in a short story but my excuse was he had no idea what he looked like. But it is a very good point.

Oh dear, I've spent so much time in my novel explaining Why my characters are doing what they are doing...it's actually a bit exhausting...I wish much better luck to everyone else.....

WeirdGirlParadigms
51687 words so far Winner!

I think a big thing with me is not writing like I have to explain everything to the reader, let him imagine some things for himself/herself. Sometimes I wonder whether or not a story is truly good because of the writing or because of my amazing imagination taking it to the next level? But it is just impossible for me to separate the two when I'm reading someone else's novel...and I think that's a good thing. So now I have to remember as a writer to just give the reader room to let their imagination soar, maybe they will take my novel to places I didn't even know it could go...

I don't know if that makes sense.

rainsong
63308 words so far Winner!

Eek I have used onomatopoeias in my novel - ok not a lot, just the sound on a small bell twice and I never like it, it seemed childish to me and this confirms it - I am going to go back and change it right now!

rubberbend
18664 words so far

Tell me then, how do I use my onomatopoeias?
Or how do I work around them, if I should?
When's the right time and place to use them?

shireyk
50078 words so far Winner!

I don't know about your number 2. I think it is a personal preference and also something that each writer has to decide for themselves. The decision to use onomatopoeias is something that has to do with each writer's particular style. You would not expect Bertha Mason to leap from the roof of Thornfield with a WHOOSH and a wretched AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH! but onomatopoeias surely have their place in the world of novel-writing, don't you think?

jilliangrace23
18660 words so far

I like the things written in this blog, but here' s the one thing I have come to know as a writer and as a teacher of writers.
Write, write, write. Then REWRITE.

EDIT!!!

The whole premise of NaNoWriMo is to write, write, write so that you just get it out. Because getting your butt in the chair to get the words out is the key to being a writer. Not talent, or experience, or having a story you can spin into a franchise to make millions. Your butt in the chair to do the work.

So write! If you character wants to describe themselves in a mirror, let them! If they want to scream "You're a poopy fart-face!" when they're made, let them! If you want to use onomatopoeias, do it! Let the car VROOM or the exhaust pipe go BANG! And if your character makes a less than common choice, roll with it.

Get it on paper.

No one writes a great novel in the first draft. For evidence of this, read any interview with a writer. Read Stephanie Meyer's partial draft of Midnight Sun (but be warned, it's ROUGH). First drafts, which is what we're creating in NaNoWriMo are ROUGH drafts. Let them be rough.

The trick is to be brave enough to go back, give your work an objective (or as objective a look as you can) and fix it. In the rewriting, you think "maybe it is a little weird that my character has just stopped in the middle of the day to describe themselves in the mirror." And then you find a better way of communicating what the character looks like.

Maybe you go back and reread and realize that no one gives a flying-you-know-what about the sound the car makes, so you take it out.

And perhaps your character is a ditz and usually misses the obvious choice, so they do the not-obvious thing. Maybe they aren't, so you erase that "gripping scene" you wrote for the better good of the novel and move on.

Be brave, be bold, and make mistakes in your first (rough) draft. GET THE WORDS OUT. Then go back and fix them.

"I'm not a very good writer, but I'm an excellent rewriter." James Michener, 1948 winner of the Pulitzer Prize for Tales of the South Pacific (the work South Pacific was based on).

TANK Ex Mortis
15103 words so far

1. Don't listen to any advice, ever, from anyone.
2. Unless it's me.

Circe Marda
564 words so far

Got it!

Wait, I'm confused.

Karin_Photo
51559 words so far Winner!

Hey - that's MY line!!! ;P

n0c7u4
30130 words so far

Yes sir! :D

sacherjj
51637 words so far Winner!

Show don't Tell.

RainDropReverie
50674 words so far Winner!

Classic advice that's both vague and precise at the same time! :) And sometimes difficult to follow. I'm editing something right now, admittedly a fanfic, as good practice for more serious efforts and discovering I broke this rule all over the place. This teaches me a lot. Namely, to not write things when I'm half asleep that's based on a dream and just post it as is on the internet. Some of the stuff I'm leaving as is because the piece amuses me to be a little bad/trite, but some I'm changing as it makes me twitch to see it.

Showing via action and detail rather than just telling the reader straight up what's going on.

morasue
8516 words so far

"This teaches me a lot. Namely, to not write things when I'm half asleep that's based on a dream and just post it as is"

It worked for Stephanie Meyer, why not you? lol

RainDropReverie
50674 words so far Winner!

lol Well, for one thing, it's a fanfic and for another, woah it's really bad! Reading over it makes me cringe and not in the 'it's so bad it must be good' way either. xD

keegan139
25918 words so far

So, it's just like Stephanie Meyer? xD

Piper the Perfect
55978 words so far Winner!

Ouch! Major diss!

moonmomma
53316 words so far Winner!

show when showing works best, and tell when telling works best.

Unit7
29378 words so far

Definitely agree.

Sometimes writers need to realize that telling isn't the ultimate sin of writing.

this.is.a.username
10071 words so far

Also, there is more than one way of "telling." I found telling can be weaved into the story quite nicely when telling it to another character. As long as you tell it in the boundries of what the other character would want to know, and that it's done subtly.

EvaTheVampireSlayer
18799 words so far

I very much agree. Sometimes I'll get writing assignments (I am unfortunately still in high school) back and the teachers will have yelled at me for telling. But the thing is, if you tell in an interesting way, than it can work just as good or even better than showing.

moonlightskymist
50501 words so far Winner!

I believe that the "show don't tell" rule applies to the over-use of adverbs. I constantly find my writing littered with adverbs such as slowly, honestly, softly... There are so many other more interesting ways of writing that.

cityscapes101
50079 words so far Winner!

I always thought that advice was used when writing screenplays or plays not novels. In novels I thought you should do both.

Kimberly Dawn
50019 words so far Winner!

Unless you live in China, Korea, or Japan, where info dumps are standard. Oh and India, where the conflict may not start until much later. Or you're writing a fairytale. Are we talking after 1930's? 'cause I believe Gertrude Stein was the one that made this pivotal change.

lacrosse257
80876 words so far

Funny... that's what my teacher says.

rally.the.legions
25003 words so far

Actually, a more accurate statement would be "Show AND Tell". The hard part is knowing when to do which.

Word-Smith
10102 words so far

I learned this in creative writing class. xD Like, giving hints about the characters by subtly describing them, without being a writer who says "their dark eyebrows and their sinister eyes and their evil lips" lol. Like Stephen King said, don't give features personalities.

RainDropReverie
50674 words so far Winner!

Oh, and for my actual two cents to this, something I am working at learning: don't be afraid of using "said" a lot. It feels repetitious to you, but the reader will glide right over it to the important parts of the sentence. "(dialogue here)," Jory said as (action/sentence here). etc. Not only is it good grammar, but as I've been told, it's important to clarify to the reader who is talking. And I was told to do what I can to keep one character's action contained to the same paragraph before moving on to another character's action. I've actually been getting a ton of advice lately, but I don't remember it all and don't want to make a big brick of text. lol

Katsuro
50025 words so far Winner!

Good advice, that. "Said" is one of the few invisible words in the language.

MeBeBri
140782 words so far Winner!

Absolutely. "Said" can never be oversaid. Except in examples like that, where oversaid is not a word...

Unit7
29378 words so far

I also agree. There is nothing wrong with a few 'saidisms' thrown in but there is nothing wrong with the word Said.

Of course as long as its established who is talking you don't even need to write said or a saidism.

A.Liberman
31380 words so far

Exactly! There's very few things more distracting than an author who never uses "said.". I read a mystery a few years back which had an excellent plot, funny characters and a ton of potential, but I found myself thinking more about the awkward avoidance of "said" than the story. Overuse of phrases like "he rasped" or "she growled" annoy me as well, being physically impossible. Unless a joke is made of it, ie "you may not think it's possible to hiss a word with no s's, but he managed it quite well."

jefflion
52527 words so far Winner!

Don't ruin the ending.

(Whatever you do, please, please, do not ruing the ending!)

Katsuro
50025 words so far Winner!

Thanks for creating this thread; I was going to make one like this. Yeah, I just wanted credit for coming up with the idea too, haha.

1. Don't explain how a character said something if it's already completely obvious. For instance, this is okay:

"Great idea, Jane," Bill said sarcastically.

This isn't okay:

"I HATE YOU, I HATE YOU! YOU CREEP!" she shouted in an angry tone of voice.

It's pretty clear that she's angry, after all.

sacherjj
51637 words so far Winner!

If you remove all of the "ly" demon adverbs, your writing improves. If you still think it needs to be there, you did not describe the situation enough or your dialog is weak.

Adverbs are there, because you don't have trust in your readers to understand the situation without them. Trust the readers.

moonmomma
53316 words so far Winner!

Adverbs have their place. Usually a stonger verb can be found, or things can be described, but not always. And sometimes doing it that way leads to excess wordiness in a passage where the wordiness isn't justified (for example, in a passage of dialogue, having to use two or three sentences to describe a fleeting expression, thus disrupting the pace of the dialogue). If an adverb most accurately conveys what you want to say in the appropriate amount of space, use an adverb.

Arynn
76149 words so far Winner!

But adverbs should still be used sparingly. And please please make them make sense. I just read "she smirked interiorly" in a published novel, ugh.

keolah
18170 words so far

And yet your post would not make sense without the adverb "sparingly". ;)

Arynn
76149 words so far Winner!

True, turning it into an adjective makes it sound too poetic. "Rare are the times when an adverb is appropriate."

moonmomma
53316 words so far Winner!

Quote:I just read "she smirked interiorly" in a published novel


I consider myself a defender of the honor and (sparing) usefulness of adverbs, but even *I* wouldn't write that! O.o

hlynn
50448 words so far Winner!

UGH. I still have yet to figure out 'rising ponderously' actually means. Adverbs, however, can be used in dialogue because we *do* talk with them, but keep them out of the rest of the prose as much as possible. Yes, they usually make you sound smart, but this story isn't about your vocab skills. It's, you know, about your characters, your plot, and not pulling your reader away from those things.

rainstorm.
54000 words so far Winner!

Well what about Katsuro's first example? Without "sarcastically", it'd be harder to tell if Bill is being genuine or not. Because he could be in context.

ShinyPebbles
16871 words so far

rainstorm. wrote:
Well what about Katsuro's first example? Without "sarcastically", it'd be harder to tell if Bill is being genuine or not. Because he could be in context.


But why should the reader be told at this point? Ambiguity, and letting the reader interpret the scene for himself, is IMO a good thing. That's why we present scenes instead of just summaries - so that the reader can interpret the events for themselves.

Imagine that you're watching a movie and subtitles start rolling across the screen to explain all the ambiguities. ("Bill is being sarcastic here. Jane said that because she's angry that Joe didn't propose to her over dessert. The waiter is annoyed because of the small tip. No, the tablecloth is not supposed to be on fire.") You'd be annoyed and feel condescended to, wouldn't you?

poplopo
50828 words so far Winner!

In a move, though, you can hear a character's tone of voice. Sarcasm is most definitely a tone, and one not easily described other than using the word "sarcastically." If you're still trying to go with showing and not telling, saying "said sarcastically," still works, because you're not tediously laying out why he's being sarcastic, or what precisely he's thinking. You're just illustrating what his tone would be if you were hearing a conversation in real life.

ShinyPebbles
16871 words so far

I don't know - what tone is sarcasm? There's a funny-voice sarcasm, yes, and a mock-cheerful sarcasm, but you can also be sarcastic with a flat, bland voice, or you could make the remark in a perfectly normal voice. To me, "sarcastically" doesn't describe a tone of voice, it instead serves as an explanation, and I don't want an explanation.

If the line were instead:

"Oh, that's a great idea," said Ben, his voice artificially bright.
or
"Oh, that's a great idea, said Ben, his tone flat.
or
"Oh, that's a... great idea," said Ben.
or
"Oh, that's a greeeeeeat idea," said Ben.

I'd be OK with it, and I think that it would still communicate enough information.

CrazyMomofFive
4606 words so far

You could also do something like:

Bill rolled his eyes, "Great idea, Jane."

Word-Smith
10102 words so far

ShinyPebbles wrote:

If the line were instead:

"Oh, that's a great idea," said Ben, his voice artificially bright.
or
"Oh, that's a great idea," said Ben, his tone flat.



Damn, this is a very awesome way to change it from creating a tone to showing how the character said it. It's creating character, not atmosphere. ^_^

Kimberly Dawn
50019 words so far Winner!

Easy, drop the tag altogether. Skill level.

"I think it's going to be a lovely day. Let's go out for a picnic!"
Bill looked at the lovely storm clouds gathering over the house. he narrowed his eyes at them and glanced at the weather forecast. Rain clouds played as the cheery weatherman pointed at the screen behind him. "Great idea, Jane. Let's just go and do that."

No tag necessary, there is enough set up and if you've set up Bill up to this point as being a sourpuss, all the better.

KeikoCharna
50086 words so far Winner!

I tend to watch tv with the captions on and they often include notes about tone. It can be important information and if you can't hear it you need to get it another way.

tab105
15552 words so far

You can't just cut adverbs, the modify all your great adjectives.

A. Leigh
13462 words so far

Also with adverbs: I have recently been told (over and over again) by my Magazine Editing professor that a great way to cut down on adverbs, replace "very" with "damn." If you would use damn in the sentence, you can use very. This probably works better for the magazine industry, but it's still a good exercise for novelists.

Ashrazan
54427 words so far Winner!

Indeed, but it bothers me when an author doesn't specify and the words could be taken any way because they haven't been connected to the character's thoughts. I found most of the sixth Harry Potter book to be that way. Sure people said things, but there was no emotion in it to me on the other hand the movie was well done because you could hear and see what was really going on in the character's heads.

Let's face it, people don't always mean what they say and in real life and tone of voice is everything. Personally, I like to put that into my writing. You can say "That's great," happily, irritably, sarcastically, flatly, evilly....I know that's a horrendous list of adverbs but I hope you still get the point. Characters aren't just supposed to talk, they're supposed to live...

Katsuro
50025 words so far Winner!

Oh, and you know how people say "write what you know"? Well, while you shouldn't adhere to that rule TOO zealously (toherwise no fantasy novels will ever get written) it's a good idea to avoid writing about things you clearly don't know at all. If you're writing about, say, Japan, make sure that you read some non-fiction about how Japanese people are expected to act in the society they live in.

Unit7
29378 words so far

My rule of thumb on Write What You know rule is this.

If you don't know it, research it. :D

But you should first have some understanding of what you are writing about. Read articles, interview people, watch some good high quality documentaries, and such.

That way it slowly becomes something you do know. :)

Widom
26422 words so far

I've always heard "write what you know" to mean emotions and reactions, not facts. I mean, facts can be researched, but if you understand being afraid of being homeless or something, use that.

poplopo
50828 words so far Winner!

This, absolutely. This is what any accomplished writer means when they say to write what you know. It's why an author like Ray Bradbury focuses a lot of his emotional content on a carefree childhood, or why Stephen King writes characters who struggle with addiction, or why Phillip K. Dick writes about.. well... trippy shit. (And is one of the reasons, in my opinion, why Twilight fails - there is no realistic emotion in that series because the author has never actually felt any of the emotions she writes about.)

EvaTheVampireSlayer
18799 words so far

Although, apparently Bella is based on her. Which adds an extreme ick factor.

Kimberly Dawn
50019 words so far Winner!

It was amended later to mean this, though it didn't mean this originally. You can also research emotional reactions and play to them or purposefully provoke yourself into such situations so you do remember.

wadatrip
50074 words so far Winner!

Turn off the tube.

keolah
18170 words so far

Don't be afraid to use a character's name. It will be far less annoying to say "Jack did this, Jack said that", than "the dark-haired young man did this, the hazel-eyed male human being said that". You don't need "variety" to mix it up... character names are identifiers and readers are going to be far more tolerant and not get annoyed by seeing them a lot, than if you say "the former Dark Lord of the Sith did this" every other sentence. (*glares at fanfic*)

sbhsdgd96
50068 words so far Winner!

or worse, 'the singer said' when the sentence in question had nothing to do with the character being a singer.

AlyRuth
17968 words so far

This.

"I'm a cheerleader this year!" said Kirsten to Lola.
"That's great that you made the team! Who are you cheering for?" Lola asked.
"Football, of course!" the blonde-headed cheerleader giggled.

Arynn
76149 words so far Winner!

Exactly! I always wonder where the cheerleader came from.

Dreamie
50098 words so far Winner!

Oh god, yes.

That has to be one of my main irritants while reading a book.

forlornshadow
50080 words so far Winner!

here's a rule for that. Names are identifiers but they can get boring real quick as well as the pronouns him, her, she, he...etc. So if the READER knows something about the character then you can use the longer describer.
Example:
It has already been established earlier in the story that one of the main characters is a prince and that he has been renounced because of something he did.
"How in the world am I supposed to eat this?" asked Aaron holding up a dead rabbit.
"You cook it," answered Zion.
"I realize that but how?" asked the former prince.
Then I would continue the dialogue without names or identifiers. We already established who is speaking and in which order so you don't need to say it. This usually applies for conversations between two people and is not recommended for use with more than that because its confusing if you don't know how to use it properly.

Angelynx
51551 words so far Winner!

When I have a conversation between two people I usually think it's enough to use names the first time they speak, to establish the order of comments, and then just go with it, alternating lines.

Shao checked the map. "Which way do we go now?"
"I think it's east from here. " Komori glanced from the map to the stars overhead. [[yes, he can see in the dark.]]
"East? but I thought it was south of here."
"I admit I've never been this way before."
And so on. I wouldn;t let it go on too long, but i think it works fine for a stretch.

Kimberly Dawn
50019 words so far Winner!

Exception: You don't have a character name, only a title (Because calling them by name is enough to get your head chopped off. See Tale of Genji--Genji is not the character's actual name.) or your character is absolutely horrible at remembering names.

Angelynx
51551 words so far Winner!

(Or "Princess Mononoke." I'll bet there are still people out there who think Sen's name is Mononoke, because she's the closest thing to a princess in the movie, when it's actually just an exact translation from Japanese syntax and in colloquial English would be more like "The Mononoke Princess" or even "The Beast Princess").

Ashrazan
54427 words so far Winner!

I don't write fanfic but this is definitely one of my faults....I hate writing a character's name all of the time...

Word-Smith
10102 words so far

What if the main character is looking at another, and they don't know the other's name? Can they use physical indications to identify? If it's in first person, that is. Like,

I saw the girl in the hat across the street again, this time walking much slower than every other sunny morning that week. Today she was wearing a slender grey coat, with fluff on the front. I couldn't see her face; I could never see her face. So she will always remain the girl in the hat.

Inked_Flowers
50706 words so far Winner!

I think that could work because it's a character quirk not a writer quirk and 'the girl in the hate' is teh character's identity here because thats all the reader and the main character know her as.

Kayla Rain
113936 words so far

STARWARS FTW.

blairet793
50131 words so far Winner!

To elaborate on the "show-don't-tell" thing, I read a good article about this in my composition class. It basically explains that the phrase is referring to emotions more than anything else. For example, try not to write "she was angry," -- instead, say "she rushed out and slammed the door." The actions themselves speak for the emotions.

AlyRuth
17968 words so far

A daily apple from CS Lewis:

Always try to use the language so as to make quite clear what you mean and make sure your sentence couldn’t mean anything else.

Always prefer the plain direct word to the long, vague one. Don’t implement promises, but keep them.

Never use abstract nouns when concrete ones will do. If you mean “More people died” don’t say “Mortality rose.”

In writing. Don’t use adjectives which merely tell us how you want us to feel about the things you are describing. I mean, instead of telling us the thing is “terrible,” describe it so that we’ll be terrified. Don’t say it was “delightful”; make us say “delightful” when we’ve read the description. You see, all those words (horrifying, wonderful, hideous, exquisite) are only like saying to your readers “Please, will you do my job for me.”

Don’t use words too big for the subject. Don’t say “infinitely” when you mean “very”; otherwise you’ll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite.

Angelynx
51551 words so far Winner!

THIS THIS. I have a horrible time trying to express how handsome my guys are without just fangirling all over them. SHAME ON ME.

And as a government drone, I have developed a permanent hate for long vague words. If I see "ambulate" for "walk" once more, I really will scream at the screen.

DanWells11
50891 words so far Winner!

A note from John Gardner's 'The Art of Fiction: Notes on Craft for Young Writers'

"Sentences beginning with gerunds (what Gardner calls "infinitive-verb phrases") are so common in bad writing that one is wise to treat them as guilty until proven innocent - sentences, that is, that begin with such phrases as "Looking up slowly from her sewing, Martha said..." or "Carrying the duck in his left hand, Henry..." Such introductory phrases can often lead to shifts in the temporal focus or to plain illogic. Of course, introductory infinitive-verb phrases, when used discretely, can be very effective. They can momentarily slow down the action, giving it a considered, weighted quality that can heighten the tension of an important scene: "Slowly raising the rifle barrel..." etc."

I know in my writing I often over-use gerunds if I don't keep one eye open for them.

FrogC
52118 words so far Winner!

John Gardner needs to work on his grammar. Those are neither gerunds nor infinitives (which are not the same thing), but participles.

MikeAlx
50189 words so far Winner!

I'm afraid it's a bit late for John Gardner to work on anything.

PhantomDream
50196 words so far Winner!

^^^THIS.

This whole exchange just made my day.

Spam286
60043 words so far Winner!

It should probably be mentioned somewhere, as a caveat, that nothing anybody tells you about how to write is set in stone. There will always be circumstances under which these 'rules' can, and perhaps should, be broken.

So I guess my thing that all writers should know is that no writer knows everything. Don't be afraid to ignore a 'rule' that you disagree with, or that you feel you can flout effectively for the sake of your story.

(That said, you should also be aware that people have put them forward as things you should know for a reason. Consider carefully before casting them aside.)

wombatrider
50489 words so far Winner!

This is especially nice to make note of, in this day and age. A few years back, I was getting really discouraged in my writing because I kept wanting to be prompted to write, instead of writing. I kept wanting to know how to accomplish something, so I went on a writing-how-to safari online that eventually left a bad taste in my mouth.

I think the best thing to keep in mind while writing, is not let things distract you. Even if they seem helpful, it can eventually be harmful.

If you begin to feel overwhelmed by the mere act of writing, that's the time where you just cast everything you've "learned" aside and get back to basics. Get back to the nitty-gritty. Get back to writing spontaneously and without your inner-editor perched on your shoulder.

Cultivate innocence and naivete when writing has become too daunting. This is when you throw caution to the wind, and just dive right in.

forlornshadow
50080 words so far Winner!

true so true

Earthsick
200000 words so far Winner!

Thank you for this because I got discouraged while reading (sometimes only skimming) this thread. 2011 was my first time writing my novel in English and reading that I shouldn't refer to my main character as "the mage" like I did from time to time made my heart drop. I mean, my characters do a lot of things and going from Name1 to Name 2 to Name1 to Name2 when only one of them is a mage is kind of annoying.
There are so many rules that it makes me think that it's the best idea ever to never ever show my stuff to other people because they hate it for the little things they seem to dislike. (Btw, the only time the main character's eye colour was ever mentioned was in the second half of this 200k monster and only because one of the other characters wanted to distract him from something else. "Oh, you have xy eyes, I never noticed before!" - since I let people vote for the eye colour it is, *sigh*, hazel.)

.the.blue.dinosaur.
103609 words so far Winner!

Use the first word that you think of. If you say something fairly ordinary that fits, don't try to come up with something "unique" to make it more intellectual.

Show, don't tell. There's a quote that I really like on this:

"Don't tell me that the moon is shining; show me the glint of light on broken glass."
- Anton Chekov

And learn grammar rules. It's fine to break them for your story, but you really need a solid background on commas before you start using them willy-nilly.

agreysky
51465 words so far

I really love this advice.

Chillibean
52973 words so far Winner!

Me too. Chekov's one of the people we study in drama, so I don't particularly like him for giving me so much work. But that quote... brilliant. I think I've changed my mind about him.

Angelynx
51551 words so far Winner!

.the.blue.dinosaur. wrote:
Show, don't tell. There's a quote that I really like on this:

"Don't tell me that the moon is shining; show me the glint of light on broken glass."
- Anton Chekov



That's exquisite! I'm going to copy it and keep it by my screen. (and it reminds me how much moonlight I've used in the first 1/4 of my book.)
Thank you for passing it along.

ShinyPebbles
16871 words so far

Re:

""Great idea, Jane," Bill said sarcastically."

I'd argue that "sarcastically" is, or should be, obvious from the context as well. Also, part of the purpose of sarcasm is to be non-obvious, so there isn't really a sarcastic tone of voice. Given that , I think that it would be better to present the line "straight", without an explanation, and let the reader figure out Bill's intent at roughly the same time that the characters do.

ShinyPebbles

Rosina Rowantree
2929 words so far

Quote:Great idea, Jane."

Jane glared at Bob. It might not have been the smartest idea ever, but Bob had not managed to come up with anything better.


Or

Quote:Great idea, Jane," Bob said, then felt guilty as he saw how much his words had meant to the girl. She was always slow to recognise when people were teasing her.

Katsuro
50025 words so far Winner!

No sunch thing as a sarastic tone of voice? Sure there is, friend. Whenever somebody says "Great. Just great." without sounding like she really thinks it's great, that's the sarcastic tone of vocie; a tone that doesn't suit the sentiment of the words.

DozyCat
50103 words so far Winner!

It isn't always obvious from the context though, and elaborating the context to make it clear isn't always a viable option. If Bill is normally a serious sort of character, who doesn't poke fun at people, then maybe it's just better to point out that here he's being sarcastic. If he's normally snarky and superior, then there's no need.

moonmomma
53316 words so far Winner!

This, exactly.

Kimberly Dawn
50019 words so far Winner!

There is always room for context building. Besides, it's better word count.

Bill sat in his cubicle staring at his computer screen. He had so many reports to do, but he thought he could do them all. Maybe if he wasn't pressured so much he would make it. He was really hopeful.

Jane leaned over his cubicle wall and said, "Hey."

Bill stopped, trying to be respectful and looked up at Jane.

"There is a bowling alley out in Colorado."

"I can't go... I have reports to do. I think I can finish them on time."

"Don't be a spoil sport, Bill, c''mon. Let's go."

"The boss needs these tomorrow."

Jane paused and looked up at the clock. "You can come back to the office afterwards."

Bill stared back at his screen, the list seemingly getting longer. He pressed his lips together. He could survive this. "They lock up after 6--there is no way to reenter the building once you leave."

"Come, it'll be fun, besides, is it really that important?"

Bill nodded once, putting his hands on the keyboard. "It is."

"Worst comes to worst, you can break in tomorrow morning--I know a security guard and you can put in the overtime. Though we're planning to get drinks later and--"

Bill felt his blood boil, but he didn't want to be rude. His throat closed. "Great idea, Jane. I can tell the boss from jail why I didn't do the paperwork."

Jane looked at Bill surprised.

^_^ Sarcasm gotten in with a relatively nice character. Done. Any questions? Anything else with Bill? I can do it all day. It's skill level. And notice I didn't use many tags 'cause I slid by dialogue tone and establishing character wants early. Make the dialogue stronger.

Rosina Rowantree
2929 words so far

Do not introduce characters whose sole purpose is to tell your MC how wonderful he or she is, or otherwise to act as a chorus making sure the reader doesn't miss the wit and wisdom of an MC.

jefflion
52527 words so far Winner!

A good one.

RamblingArtistNina
81091 words so far

Is it just me, or do Mary-Sue fics have this a lot?

Kimberly Dawn
50019 words so far Winner!

Exception--the sole purpose of the people being there is a Foil effect. The historical terminology, rather than the literary. Literally there to make your rich and plain character look better by having even more plain characters. Exception to every rule.

Katsuro
50025 words so far Winner!

Never introduce sf or fantasy elements at the very end of a story that, up to that point, has been perfectly realistic.Take The Silence of The Lambs, for instance. If that one had ended with the killer turning out to be a wicked elf, that would have been bad, since it hadn't been foreshadowed at all. It gives the impression that you couldn't handle the conditions you set up for yourself.

Siriah
33794 words so far

You don't always have to use dialogue tags. If the context makes it obvious who's speaking you can leave them out altogether. In cases where it isn't obvious, it's often possible to make it obvious by having the speaking character perform some sort of relevant action. When used properly, this will make your dialogue more interesting by breaking up long passages of dialogue, setting the scene and lending additional meaning to what's being said.

Note: Don't use boring actions just for the sake of avoiding a dialogue tag, I've seen stories where the character ended up nodding and smiling every few lines and it's rather silly. As has been mentioned, 'said' is a perfectly acceptable word to use.

AlyRuth
17968 words so far

Agreed, but be cautious. We've all had those moments where there's like 20 quotations in a row without dialogue tags and we forget who's talking and how to count by two's to see who's saying what, so refresh the reader's memory every few lines.

AlyRuth
17968 words so far

*and we forget who's talking and we have go back up and count by two's to see who's saying what

Chillibean
52973 words so far Winner!

Yes! I'm not the only one who does that! =D I also tend to skip over people's names, because usually you can tell who's speaking by what they say. But sometimes their tones are really similar and I get confused.

Earthsick
200000 words so far Winner!

I get confused after approx. 4 lines of dialogue without tags. I know that doesn't sound much but it's true. I got confused in 'About a Boy' for example. Other books too. Sometimes the dialogue is hard to pin down to a character because suddenly the lines become too similar.
Funny enough, I don't seem to be the only one. Only in grey theory you can work more than 4 dialogue lines without tags without it getting confusing.

RainDropReverie
50674 words so far Winner!

I tried the "action" thing unconsciously, but not done it properly because my 'editor' friend kept telling me to add "character name said" to clarify. Maybe I wasn't using the character name often enough, but I think she's the sort who believes "character name said" is the best way to be sure the reader knows who was speaking. Though if someone's getting interrupted, it's not necessary to use it.

Crepuscule
5356 words so far

Trainspotting, nuff said.

A. Leigh
13462 words so far

Something else Mag Ed has taught me: In long blocks of dialogue, introduce the speaker after the first sentence. If you are putting more than one block of dialogue said by different characters, tag the second block before the speaking starts. This way, the reader knows who is saying what.

Katsuro
50025 words so far Winner!

When you use dialogue tags, make sure you use ones that actually describe talking
"What does that mean?" Jane asked.
"It means that you shouldn't use the wrong kind of dialogue tags," Susan smiled. The two of them started walking to the candy store.
"How did you do that?" Jane said.
"I'm not sure what you're talking about," Susan scowled.
"You did it again! First you smiled a sentence and now you scowled one. How can you do that? You can say a sentence, you can whisper it too, but you can't scowl a sentence. Scowling is not a way of talking!"

Unit7
29378 words so far

I am pretty sure this would be the correct way to fix those examples.

"It means that you shouldn't use the wrong kind of dialogue tags." Susan smiled.

and

"I'm not sure what you're talking about." Susan scowled.

Yeah I know I just changed the comma to a period. But what these are are Beats. They are actions the characters does before, after, and in between dialogue. In your case it does describe how they speak the words.

or something. Grammar was never something I was great at. But I read a blog detailing the mechanics of dialogue.

JamieKay
8902 words so far

Unit7 wrote:
I am pretty sure this would be the correct way to fix those examples.

"It means that you shouldn't use the wrong kind of dialogue tags." Susan smiled.

and

"I'm not sure what you're talking about." Susan scowled.

Yeah I know I just changed the comma to a period. But what these are are Beats. They are actions the characters does before, after, and in between dialogue. In your case it does describe how they speak the words.

or something. Grammar was never something I was great at. But I read a blog detailing the mechanics of dialogue.




Do you happen to have the site of the blog with this information? Always good to freshen up on the mechanics ya?

Kimberly Dawn
50019 words so far Winner!

Listen to grammar girl, she covers several grammar issues. Also what is style v. grammar. She had transcripts too. Google her.

NJC
20611 words so far

Remember that NaNoWriMo is National Novel WRITING Month, not National Novel PERFECTING Month. Listen to advice on writing but don't let it get in the way of getting your story down. Focus on the story itself. Pay attention to making it better when you edit.

Dreamie
50098 words so far Winner!

Which is why, I'm pretty sure, if I managed to finish my novel within the time frame, December will see about half of those 50k words snipped away into oblivion. Some of them even based on recommendations from this very thread.
But to worry about this right now would only serve to scare me off writing.

Maybe I'll at least have a novella in the end. >_>;

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