Things that all writers should know http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307 AlyRuth Here's a little thread I've been thinking of, we compile a list of basic things that all writers, new or old, should know. They can be basic mistakes or huge ones. I'll start with three: 1. Don't have your character look in the mirror and describe himself. Your character doesn't notice what he sees everyday, so it shouldn't be in your narrative. He'll notice the unzipped zipper, the spot on his shirt, or the hair out of place. Not his hazel eyes and brown, curly hair. 2. Eek! I hate to drop this bomb on you, but--BOOM! Please don't use onomatopoeias! It makes me want to--VROOM--run my car into something large and immovable! CRASH! Or maybe go jump in a river. Sploosh! But for now I'll just go slam the door in my writing studio--SLAM--and sulk. Sigh... 3. Do reality checks on each scene. A lot of times I'll read stories or watch movies where I'm asking myself, "Why didn't they just do X?" where X is the most obvious thing in the world to any human being, but your characters chose Y so you could write a gripping scene. The most common example is the frail, helpless lady going down in the basement do see why her friend is screaming and blood is dripping out from under the door in a horror movie. Do you have any suggestions for new or old authors? Sun, 16 Oct 2011 13:01:18 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_77115 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_77115 TANK Ex Mortis 1. Don't listen to any advice, ever, from anyone. 2. Unless it's me. Sun, 16 Oct 2011 13:25:56 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_77401 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_77401 sacherjj Show don't Tell. Sun, 16 Oct 2011 14:11:17 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_77853 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_77853 RainDropReverie Oh, and for my actual two cents to this, something I am working at learning: don't be afraid of using "said" a lot. It feels repetitious to you, but the reader will glide right over it to the important parts of the sentence. "(dialogue here)," Jory said as (action/sentence here). etc. Not only is it good grammar, but as I've been told, it's important to clarify to the reader who is talking. And I was told to do what I can to keep one character's action contained to the same paragraph before moving on to another character's action. I've actually been getting a ton of advice lately, but I don't remember it all and don't want to make a big brick of text. lol Sun, 16 Oct 2011 17:18:58 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_79336 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_79336 jefflion Don't ruin the ending. (Whatever you do, please, please, do not ruing the ending!) Mon, 17 Oct 2011 01:52:47 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_82118 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_82118 Katsuro Thanks for creating this thread; I was going to make one like this. Yeah, I just wanted credit for coming up with the idea too, haha. 1. Don't explain how a character said something if it's already completely obvious. For instance, this is okay: "Great idea, Jane," Bill said sarcastically. This isn't okay: "I HATE YOU, I HATE YOU! YOU CREEP!" she shouted in an angry tone of voice. It's pretty clear that she's angry, after all. Mon, 17 Oct 2011 02:08:28 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_82251 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_82251 Katsuro Oh, and you know how people say "write what you know"? Well, while you shouldn't adhere to that rule TOO zealously (toherwise no fantasy novels will ever get written) it's a good idea to avoid writing about things you clearly don't know at all. If you're writing about, say, Japan, make sure that you read some non-fiction about how Japanese people are expected to act in the society they live in. Mon, 17 Oct 2011 02:17:17 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_82343 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_82343 wadatrip Turn off the tube. Mon, 17 Oct 2011 02:48:06 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_82620 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_82620 keolah Don't be afraid to use a character's name. It will be far less annoying to say "Jack did this, Jack said that", than "the dark-haired young man did this, the hazel-eyed male human being said that". You don't need "variety" to mix it up... character names are identifiers and readers are going to be far more tolerant and not get annoyed by seeing them a lot, than if you say "the former Dark Lord of the Sith did this" every other sentence. (*glares at fanfic*) Mon, 17 Oct 2011 02:54:07 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_82670 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_82670 blairet793 To elaborate on the "show-don't-tell" thing, I read a good article about this in my composition class. It basically explains that the phrase is referring to emotions more than anything else. For example, try not to write "she was angry," -- instead, say "she rushed out and slammed the door." The actions themselves speak for the emotions. Mon, 17 Oct 2011 03:30:39 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_83018 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_83018 AlyRuth A daily apple from CS Lewis: Always try to use the language so as to make quite clear what you mean and make sure your sentence couldn’t mean anything else. Always prefer the plain direct word to the long, vague one. Don’t implement promises, but keep them. Never use abstract nouns when concrete ones will do. If you mean “More people died” don’t say “Mortality rose.” In writing. Don’t use adjectives which merely tell us how you want us to feel about the things you are describing. I mean, instead of telling us the thing is “terrible,” describe it so that we’ll be terrified. Don’t say it was “delightful”; make us say “delightful” when we’ve read the description. You see, all those words (horrifying, wonderful, hideous, exquisite) are only like saying to your readers “Please, will you do my job for me.” Don’t use words too big for the subject. Don’t say “infinitely” when you mean “very”; otherwise you’ll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. Mon, 17 Oct 2011 03:53:53 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_83260 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_83260 DanWells11 A note from John Gardner's 'The Art of Fiction: Notes on Craft for Young Writers' "Sentences beginning with gerunds (what Gardner calls "infinitive-verb phrases") are so common in bad writing that one is wise to treat them as guilty until proven innocent - sentences, that is, that begin with such phrases as "Looking up slowly from her sewing, Martha said..." or "Carrying the duck in his left hand, Henry..." Such introductory phrases can often lead to shifts in the temporal focus or to plain illogic. Of course, introductory infinitive-verb phrases, when used discretely, can be very effective. They can momentarily slow down the action, giving it a considered, weighted quality that can heighten the tension of an important scene: "Slowly raising the rifle barrel..." etc." I know in my writing I often over-use gerunds if I don't keep one eye open for them. Mon, 17 Oct 2011 06:24:16 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_84967 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_84967 Spam286 It should probably be mentioned somewhere, as a caveat, that nothing anybody tells you about how to write is set in stone. There will always be circumstances under which these 'rules' can, and perhaps should, be broken. So I guess my thing that all writers should know is that no writer knows everything. Don't be afraid to ignore a 'rule' that you disagree with, or that you feel you can flout effectively for the sake of your story. (That said, you should also be aware that people have put them forward as things you should know for a reason. Consider carefully before casting them aside.) Mon, 17 Oct 2011 09:19:12 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_87140 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_87140 .the.blue.dinosaur. Use the first word that you think of. If you say something fairly ordinary that fits, don't try to come up with something "unique" to make it more intellectual. Show, don't tell. There's a quote that I really like on this: "Don't tell me that the moon is shining; show me the glint of light on broken glass." - Anton Chekov And learn grammar rules. It's fine to break them for your story, but you really need a solid background on commas before you start using them willy-nilly. Mon, 17 Oct 2011 09:46:47 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_87494 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_87494 ShinyPebbles Re: ""Great idea, Jane," Bill said sarcastically." I'd argue that "sarcastically" is, or should be, obvious from the context as well. Also, part of the purpose of sarcasm is to be non-obvious, so there isn't really a sarcastic tone of voice. Given that , I think that it would be better to present the line "straight", without an explanation, and let the reader figure out Bill's intent at roughly the same time that the characters do. ShinyPebbles Mon, 17 Oct 2011 16:33:26 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_92222 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_92222 Rosina Rowantree Do not introduce characters whose sole purpose is to tell your MC how wonderful he or she is, or otherwise to act as a chorus making sure the reader doesn't miss the wit and wisdom of an MC. Mon, 17 Oct 2011 22:58:56 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_94149 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_94149 Katsuro Never introduce sf or fantasy elements at the very end of a story that, up to that point, has been perfectly realistic.Take The Silence of The Lambs, for instance. If that one had ended with the killer turning out to be a wicked elf, that would have been bad, since it hadn't been foreshadowed at all. It gives the impression that you couldn't handle the conditions you set up for yourself. Mon, 17 Oct 2011 23:15:06 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_94255 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_94255 Siriah You don't always have to use dialogue tags. If the context makes it obvious who's speaking you can leave them out altogether. In cases where it isn't obvious, it's often possible to make it obvious by having the speaking character perform some sort of relevant action. When used properly, this will make your dialogue more interesting by breaking up long passages of dialogue, setting the scene and lending additional meaning to what's being said. Note: Don't use boring actions just for the sake of avoiding a dialogue tag, I've seen stories where the character ended up nodding and smiling every few lines and it's rather silly. As has been mentioned, 'said' is a perfectly acceptable word to use. Tue, 18 Oct 2011 00:01:18 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_94598 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_94598 Katsuro When you use dialogue tags, make sure you use ones that actually describe talking "What does that mean?" Jane asked. "It means that you shouldn't use the wrong kind of dialogue tags," Susan smiled. The two of them started walking to the candy store. "How did you do that?" Jane said. "I'm not sure what you're talking about," Susan scowled. "You did it again! First you smiled a sentence and now you scowled one. How can you do that? You can say a sentence, you can whisper it too, but you can't scowl a sentence. Scowling is not a way of talking!" Tue, 18 Oct 2011 03:06:49 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_96492 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_96492 NJC Remember that NaNoWriMo is National Novel WRITING Month, not National Novel PERFECTING Month. Listen to advice on writing but don't let it get in the way of getting your story down. Focus on the story itself. Pay attention to making it better when you edit. Tue, 18 Oct 2011 03:22:11 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_96680 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_96680 5onthe5 Here's one of mine: If you can't think of anything interesting for your characters to say, they're probably not in a very interesting situation. Tue, 18 Oct 2011 08:14:53 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_100491 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_100491 moonmomma Here's mine: -Rules are all well and good, but using the words and sentence structure that most accurately communicates what you want to say trumps the rules. If you have to use an adverb to say what you want to say, use an adverb. Rules are guidelines, nothing more. -Skip the boring parts. -Every writer hits a point where they hate what they're writing and want to quit. Just keep writing anyway, it'll get better eventually. -The only way to learn how to finish a novel is to actually finish it. Wed, 19 Oct 2011 04:05:28 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_110862 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_110862 Mnemophage For the love of pants, pay attention to your pacing. Nothing kills a good novel like 25,000 words of nothing happening. At this point, rather than getting an idea of what language you intend to use, you should be focusing on the plot and pace of your novel. What's actually happening, and how is it spaced out? Do you have most of your points of interest clustered around the beginning and end of the novel? Space devoted to building character, setting or technical background may be important, even crucial, but how they're spaced in the narrative is just as critical. Don't be afraid to edit with a meat cleaver: those few gems of wordplay isn't worth a vast expanse of elegant nothingness. Wed, 19 Oct 2011 06:46:38 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_113232 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_113232 DozyCat 1. Don't blindly accept the authority of other people's advice. Most rules are better used as guidelines, even those that refer to grammar and spelling, and especially those along the lines of "Never use adverbs" or "always used said instead of any other dialogue tag". Any article entitled something like "ten rules for good writing" should be taken with a sackload of salt. 2. That said, if someone tells you something, or many things, about your writing is wrong, they're probably right. 3. If a critique makes you angry, give it a few days before you reply. 4. Choclate, sweet tea, coffee, cigarettes and other stimulants are not acceptable substitutes for real food. Typing is not a legitimate form of exercise. Take care of your health as well as everything else. Wed, 19 Oct 2011 18:00:42 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_121633 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_121633 Rosina Rowantree From <em>How Not to Write a Novel</em> by Sandra Newman and Howard Mittelmark: [quote]Giving a reader a sex scene that is only half right is like giving her half a kitten. It is not half as cute as a whole kitten; it is a bloody, godawful mess. A half-good sex scene is not half as hot; it actually moves into the negative numbers, draining any heat from the surrounding material.[/quote] Thu, 20 Oct 2011 21:46:52 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_139438 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_139438 annabelle2024 Do not let an unknown character show up three-quarters of the way of the book, and tell you things and locations of people that they really shouldn't know. And please do not let their dialouge take up a whole page, without letting other characters speak or the one speaking take a breath. Not really a rule, but just something to look out for when writing. I have read a book that this happened in. It was a pretty good plot, and I was really getting into finding out how the MC's solve the mystery. They go to the persons house that they were looking for and out pops a neighbor who claims that she doesn't know the person very well, but goes into full detail of how the person and some friends would be at a certain location and then goes on to explain how she knows this information. I didn't care to finish the book after that scene. It just ruined the whole thing for me, and I am still wary of buying another book by the author. Fri, 21 Oct 2011 14:18:21 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_152034 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_152034 JAndrew Hmm... Only one bit of advice from me: Don't use "lowly" as a way to describe someone speaking in a low tone. Sun, 23 Oct 2011 05:43:48 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_172794 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_172794 eaglewings51 Quote: "Agreed, but be cautious. We've all had those moments where there's like 20 quotations in a row without dialogue tags and we forget who's talking and have to count by two's to see who's saying what, so refresh the reader's memory every few lines. " ^^THIS! I really hate it when that happens in a book I'm reading so now I avoid it like the plague in my writing. My own rule: don't make a pretty, happy, everything's flowers and bubbles and rainbows, cut-and-dried, "and they lived happily ever after ending". I don't like endings like that. I like endings that make you feel weird at the end. Like that shouldn't have happened. OR it should have happened a little differently. I don't mean a truly awful ending either like "and they all died and the bad guys won. The end" I mean an ending that makes you think and that makes you look at yourself and the people around you or even the world in a different way. I always say it's an ending that "makes me feel weird for several days. This weird feeling that I can't shake". I've read a couple books like that and they're always the best ones. Sorry, I can't explain any better than that. Sun, 23 Oct 2011 07:20:01 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_173910 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_173910 Katsuro Understand that rules are there for a reason. Yes, it is true that not all good books are adverb-free, but it's also true that there is a reason why you're suposed to try to avoid them. (Don't write that he closed the door powerfully. Write that he slammed it.) If you do break a rule, which you should do WHEN IT*S NECESSARY AND NOT OTHERWISE, make sure that you understand 1. why the rule is there in the first place and 2. how breaking it will ruin people's writing and 3. make sure to have an explanation as to why that won't happen in your case. Mon, 24 Oct 2011 06:01:22 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_186273 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_186273 firelight_cinderbrick I'm a particularly forgetful person, whenever i see a quote or tip about writing I like i copr paste it to a file I titled writing tips I go over those tips regularly but sometimes it's okay to break the rules as long as it sounds good to you Mon, 07 Nov 2011 17:38:20 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_544734 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_544734 Squamch Stick to the rules until you learn them, then break each and every one of them. And yes, do it for only the sake of breaking them. Over time, you'll learn the ones you like, the ones you can do without, and (combined with a lot of reading) you'll develop a style. Maybe your style will be adhering strictly to the rules. Maybe it won't. But never be afraid to experiment, especially when you're still trying to figure out your identity as a writer. Mon, 07 Nov 2011 20:17:22 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_546116 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_546116 Funkybassmannick -You can't improve every aspect of your writing at once. For example, in a draft, focus only on, say, three aspects of your writing you want to improve. (for example, character arcs, humor, action, dialogue, making your description/exposition also indirectly describe your characters or theme of the book, etc.) Make one of those aspects the thing you are weakest at. -Learn the formula for plot. It doesn't mean you will write the same thing as every movie or book ever written, because it will make your story clearer to the reader. The plot formula is a rule to writing, and like others have said on this forum: Don't break this formula unless you've mastered it. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 01:33:32 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_574615 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_574615 MikeAlx When writing dialogue, don't forget the setting and gestures. These keep the scene vivid, and provide opportunities to convey character. In dialogue, think about what each speaking character actually wants. What is the underlying conflict? Wed, 09 Nov 2011 03:21:02 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_576552 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_576552 MikeAlx If in doubt about what to write next, think about what will move the story forward. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 03:21:38 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_576565 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_576565 Lilia Sparks In the words of Lemony Snicket: "In short, quit. Writing a novel is a tiny candle in a dark, swirling world. It brings light and warmth and hope to the lucky few who, against insufferable odds and despite a juggernaut of irritations, find themselves in the right place to hold it. Blow it out, so our eyes will not be drawn to its power. Extinguish it so we can get some sleep. I plan to quit writing novels myself, sometime in the next hundred years." That was his pep talk a number of years ago Wed, 09 Nov 2011 07:18:58 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_581483 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_581483 turtledonut When you run out of ideas don't worry about the plot. The plot can always be gotten back to, or at least altered later. So you're stuck and you want to add ninjas in even though you're plot wouldn't make sense with ninjas? So what? At least you got past the scene and continued writing. Afterwards, you can go back to what you were doing. When you're done writing and start editing you can edit ninjas out and replace them with something else if you want. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 07:34:09 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_581857 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_581857 Aerowolf I went to a writing "camp" over the summer in which a published author came and told us basically "how to write." Two things that bothered me about her teaching was the use of adverbs and the use of conjunctions [more specifically "and" and "but." 1. She went over with us multiple times that we shouldn't use adverbs in fiction prose. I've found it very difficult to not include them in my current writing as I have never known this piece of information. However, while I've been finding it hard to not use them, I think my writing has increased by a lot, but that still doesn't make it easy, and I find it more difficult to describe things. What are your thoughts on this? 2. I had heard from various teachers and writers that the use of "but" and "and" to begin sentences is looked down upon. I've come to realize the reason for this. I was reading a fiction novel the other day that I really enjoyed, but I noticed when the author began a sentence with "but" it sounded very choppy and would have been much better without it. I've also realized that my writing flows better when I avoid using these two conjunctions to begin my sentences. Again, your opinions? Oh, and for the record. The same published author who does not like adverbs has no problems with beginning a sentence with "but" and "and." I found this odd, especially when she said she had never heard the use of these words in beginnings of sentences to be debated. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 07:36:08 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_581902 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_581902 Aerowolf Oh, I see I'm a bit late on the adverb discussion, sorry about that! Wed, 09 Nov 2011 07:36:56 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_581921 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_581921 Sassysheldon To bring up the adverb topic again, I feel like I've gotten better at not using them, but I find that the word "quickly" always seems to pop up in my writing. It's the one word for which I can never think of anything better. Any tips on how to replace/avoid it? Wed, 09 Nov 2011 07:44:23 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_582072 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_582072 Kimberly Dawn All rules can be broken if they are broken well. Writers write differently, find your way. Done. Most other rules are cultural or skill level stuff. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 08:26:19 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_583095 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_583095 flower gettin' lady All writers should know that...when you hate a character and can't stand to write for them anymore, kill 'em off. It's great, because if you do it in a way that makes them seem heroic (Jenna dying for Elena in VD) then the people that liked that character feel like their actions were justified and they died for a worthy cause. People who hated that character can dance around going "YES! Finally, that person got what they had coming!". People indifferent to the character can just shrug it off. And I loved Jenna, by the way. I was one of the people sobbing until I couldn't breathe when she died. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 09:01:50 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_583855 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_583855 edgewritermom Don't explain too much. Readers feel smarter when they can put two and two together and come up with the right answer. This is hard to do well, because it's also possible to be so obscure that people just don't get it...I once asked an author of a play we were performing what on earth that final line meant, because it was my character's line and I couldn't figure out how to say it. He said, honestly if not too helpfully, "I wrote that several years ago, and quite seriously I have no idea." Wed, 09 Nov 2011 09:12:11 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_584103 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_584103 rgpank ...when writing a Nano, don't go back and second-guess what you've written. November is for writing, December is for editing. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 10:31:33 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_585786 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_585786 Anne Michelle This is along the same lines as what rgpank said just now. The only rule I stick to in first drafts is this: 1. F*ck grammar. Just write the story. You can always go back and fix the grammar, but focus on the flow of the story. Maybe that's just me, but I can't think about grammar and adverbs and also keep a plot going for more than about five pages. I tend to be a total grammar nazi, and I've killed more stories than I can remember by rereading each sentence for grammar until I completely lost the plot. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 11:21:32 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_586774 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_586774 penwiper When you're finishing your story, don't use a surprise ending that is so hidden nobody knew it was there. For example, this is one place I think the Sherlock Holmes stories fail, because he always has to go back and add little details that HE noticed but which he never bothered to tell us-- because if he did, we'd also guess the killer far too early. :-( Wed, 09 Nov 2011 12:01:37 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_587611 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_587611 Ashrazan Stay true to yourself, don't write a novel you wouldn't want to read. If someone asks you to write something for them don't do it if you have no interest, it's not worth it and will not be as good as something you wanted to write. I think if you follow this regardless of what happens at the end you will at least have one person who likes the book, you. Try to keep you characters realistic, even in fantasy novels have them act like real people. That doesn't mean they need to be exactly like people you know, in fact you can write a character who is totally unlike anyone you've ever met before but... logic, even sketchy logic, needs to be understood while writing characters. Someone doesn't usually wander off into the night with a person they don't like (unless they're the type of person who plans on being the only one to come back from such said wander), People don't usually trust strangers, smart people never do especially the pretty ones, most strange habits or quirks have a reasoning (intricate and/or illogical) behind it. Instead of skipping reality and writing a character doing something no one would ever do in that situation, find out a reason why and put that in there. I think you'll find it's much more fun that way... In short, it helps to understand different types of people when writing characters, not everyone is just like you or me so let's write some new people. Anyway, this is just some advice from an amateur writer, take it or leave it... Wed, 09 Nov 2011 12:38:42 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_588378 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_588378 princessleopard I actually did the first thing in my NaNo (looking into a mirror and describing him/herself) but it actually had a reason to it. My MC is a dog, and when he looked into a pool and saw his reflection, he assumed it was another dog and gave him a good looking-over before attempting to make friends. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 12:48:12 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_588566 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_588566 ChelsMonster74 Screw with your readers and rather than explain everything right off the bat, assume the reader knows what you're talking about...and then later, explain everything. Hey, it'll keep them wondering and reading! :) Wed, 09 Nov 2011 13:12:43 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_589074 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_589074 Septimus Pfluger Don't be afraid to use said, but you aren't limited to it, either. I like to explain what they are doing at that point. Like: "Oh, I don't know... Is Uncle Luke gonna just let you have the farm and everythin?" Emily rocked on her stool nervously. I think it works better than 'said' because you know the character said something, that's what the quotation marks are for! Wed, 09 Nov 2011 13:20:59 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_589306 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_589306 forlornshadow Here's something that I always live by. Don't plan on anything set in stone. Plan where you want your character to start and maybe end but let your gut do the work. I once killed off a main character and didn't know it until after I wrote it but I went back to edit it and found that the story was much better than if the character had lived. If you plan the entire thing the story can get boring. I'm not saying don't plan I am saying let the story do what it wants and be ready to flex that plan a little, because not every situation ends in the same way, there are a million possibilities on how a story will end. I once had a story with sixteen different endings all giving me the same result of what I wanted. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 13:49:34 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_589972 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_589972 alswaiter Though I normally really hate it when a character will go and describe themselves and their physical appearance in one paragraph, I actually just did that. But the reason was, my character has amnesia, so he doesn't remember what he looks like at all, therefore he is curious. This is also 11k words in that he finally finds out what he looks like. There were small comments about certain elements earlier, but it really wasn't dwelt on for very long. I'm not sure if this scene will remain in my novel, but he is seeing himself for the first time, so I feel that he may be excused. But yes, I tend to agree with you for the physical description no-nos. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 15:03:33 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_591396 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_591396 artofcheatery Screenwriting Tips, You Hack is nothing but this for screenwriting. A lot of them work for novel writing too. The guy who writes it did a post for Script Frenzy a couple years ago too. http://screenwritingtips.blcklst.com/ ps: the writer on that site is not me. He just happened to steal my name. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 16:35:16 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_592892 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_592892 Charlottelancaster i agree with NJC. Its really your style your writing in and if you keep trying to perfect it its likely you'll lose all the best bits in your novel. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 19:45:28 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_594561 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_594561 ZombiesBeforeBedtime Hey guys, I was just wondering, am I the only one who actually prefers telling over showing? I always become paranoid when I hear everyone say "IF YOU TELL RATHER THAN SHOW YOU WILL GO TO WRITERS HELL FOR ALL OF ETERNITY", but it just works for me. Plus, showing drives me crazy. Blame it on my OCD but if the writer mentions something completely out of the blue, like, for example, a purple streak in the character's hair that hasn't been alluded to at ALL, I go a little homicidal. A lot of my friends agree that telling is better, but none of them write. I wanna know what you guys think. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 20:03:11 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_594682 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_594682 laeoukka Write the book you always wanted to read. Don't write for others, write for yourself. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 20:04:23 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_594690 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_594690 Alacritous-Doom Maybe I'm missing something, but why do you have to have an excuse for your character to describe themselves at all if that is something to avoid? For me, I'm using a 3rd person narrative style so I wrote something like "He wore a brown cloak that covered his chainmail" blah blah blah. Or you could just have one character describe another. When they meet, what is character A's impression of character B? e.g. "She had stunning blond hair, but when she turned around I noticed that she was a he." Lol something like that. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 20:26:41 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_594863 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_594863 Antonin Artaud i stopped caring about rules when i started writing for myself. i can't write with capital letters and proper punctuation, it doesn't flow that way. but, i think when you've done a certain amount of writing, some things become common sense and it makes you better anyway. but, about the first point -- well, i like description. hmm, when you're growing up, or whatever, you'd study your face and the changes in it anyway. (i did, but i'm kind of a narcissist and in love with my own face.) i think it's better to show how this makes the character feel about themselves. but, seriously, who thinks about themselves having AUBURN TRESSES or "my honey-brown eyes" (unless they're even more of a delusional narcissist than i am)? what person thinks like that? i never make anyone describe themselves as beautiful, because beauty is a pointless word in context (well, except for narcissists). god help me if i ever write the word "tresses". i think what makes a face or body interesting is the imperfections that stand out, the things that you remember, and i'd much rather write about that myself. perfection is ugly, and i only want to write beautiful things. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 21:38:33 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_595344 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_595344 sibil This may just be a peeve of mine, but avoid cliched achievements. For example, John Doe is such a great doctor that he discovered the cure for cancer. Whenever I see someone curing cancer in a novel, I don't know, it bugs me. How many times has the cure for cancer been discovered by now? Also, the child prodigy bugs me if it's the MC. It's plausible, yeah, but not probable, and it really makes it seem like the MC is a Sue. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 23:05:19 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_596052 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_596052 riddikulus-grin Eep! Wish I'd descovered this thred BEFORE I wrote the first 30k! I've used a lot of probably unnesassary adverbs, and I'd never even heard of "show don't tell". I get the impression my word cout will decrease dramatically come editing. Thu, 10 Nov 2011 00:10:50 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_596685 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_596685 chronosaurus As a systems engineer, I can tell you this: Writing and editing (even outside NaNoWriMo) it's a lot like programming and debugging. Even when you think it's finally perfect, if you don't tell anyone about your story before writing it, you're bound to make a mistake you didn't even considered because this is your little baby and it's so perfect. You're so concerned with not insulting your readers' intelligence that you're bound to forget including at least one important detail that can make your story completely different. Sometimes, this isn't a bad thing. Some other times, it can cripple your plot, and you probably should address it in the beginning stages. Thu, 10 Nov 2011 00:53:18 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_597149 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_597149 flopart Don't write your action like its an anime. Obviously there are good exceptions to this, but a lot of the stuff I read by anime fans can't translate the physical humor well into words, and the characters all seem like hyperactive or sullen 12 year olds because what works to develop a character in a cartoon doesn't often translate well to literature. Maybe I'm a sour puss, though. Thu, 10 Nov 2011 02:03:37 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=4#forum_thread_comment_598131 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=4#forum_thread_comment_598131 hiphop mom I don't know if anyone has said this. I tried to read through all the replies to avoid repetition, but I'm sure I missed some. I appologize if this has already been covered. Writers should know to never announce that someone "thought to him/herself". i.e. Jennie saw the exit for the mall and thought to herself, I should go there. or "What a loser," Jennie thought to herself. Unless the person has demonstrated abilities to communicate with someone else via mindtrip, esp or whatever it's being called today, then the assumption that anything the character is thinking is not being shared with anyone else is valid without having to say it. Thu, 10 Nov 2011 02:05:56 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=4#forum_thread_comment_598160 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=4#forum_thread_comment_598160 Qe_pa You can't revise a blank page, but that those 50k+ words need to be revised before publication. That means that scene in which your characters are explaining common knowledge things to one another needs to go. Slip in the worldbuilding bits gradually. And the scene in which your characters take a vacation from the plot to go watch horse racing needs to go, too. Though you can and should mine it for wonderful characterizing gems that you wouldn't have if you hadn't written the scene in the first place. If you have three characters in a scene with two of them doing most of the talking, make sure we don't forget the third character is there. Especially is that character is the POV character for this scene. I've seen all of these in published fiction and every one of them started me skimming or scratching my head. Thu, 10 Nov 2011 03:09:13 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=4#forum_thread_comment_599150 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=4#forum_thread_comment_599150 jannin I LOVE onomatopoeias! Used rarely and effectively (read: just the right word) I think these words can add a lot to your writing. Just because they are often presented terribly in comic books/campy old TV shows (though I won't hear a word against Batman, either; he's da bomb), they don't HAVE to be presented that way in novels - the right word can create excellent prose* as well as sound imagery! I especially like to use them as verbs: the thick fluid glopped to the floor; the acid hissed; our boots squelched and she yawned and the waves lapped. The other wonderful thing about onomatopoeias is that anyone can make them up. I love coming across unique sounds in books - it means that the author took some time to really think about what that sounds like, and it takes me back to when I was young, and learning to read, and sounding words out. What do they mean by "tsew!" or "snikt-!" or "fwoom"? Is that accurate? Does a whip say "whoo-PAH!" or "w-PSHH!"? Or does it crack or snap or snicker - how cruel is it and how much does it hurt? These words can convey sound and meaning, and if you pick the right one - if YOU can hear it - then it's likely your reader will too. I will agree with not overdoing onomatopoeia, and with avoiding triter choices - but remember that they don't have to be caps-lock-italic-yellow-block-letters obvious. Make them subtle but poignant, and make your sounds /sound/ good: gently click your doors closed, ignore the moaning wind and your clattering window, and let your pencils scratch across the page. *Stephen Fry said, "...but do they bubble and froth and slobber and cream with joy at language? Do they ever let the tripping of the tips of their tongues against the tops of their teeth transport them to giddy euphoric bliss? Do they ever yoke impossible words together for the sound-sex of it?" ...and while this isn't strictly about onomatopoeia, it is relevant to your sound words and how powerful they can be - read it aloud, or listen to Stephen say it (link below), and see how your sound words can not only convey meaning, but can also make for quality prose. Stephen Fry on Language: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7E-aoXLZGY Thu, 10 Nov 2011 04:00:37 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=4#forum_thread_comment_600125 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=4#forum_thread_comment_600125 Antonin Artaud actually, now that i think about it, who qualified you to make up the rules? Thu, 10 Nov 2011 04:10:43 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=4#forum_thread_comment_600330 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=4#forum_thread_comment_600330 Kimberly Dawn Rules for writing are stupid, which is why I thought I would start a thread on how to break them well through demonstration. <a href="http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/word-wars-prompts-sprints/threads/31431" rel="nofollow">Break "Writing Rules" Well above you. </a> Yes, I am aware this is an anti thread, but seriously, it can be done well. And why not show off while doing it, because we know that writers are arrogant SOBs. ^.~ Thu, 10 Nov 2011 04:52:12 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=4#forum_thread_comment_601043 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=4#forum_thread_comment_601043 Bewitched.Rhapsody <strong>Rules? Naw. Guidelines? Yuppers.</strong> Let it be noted, that for writers, the "rules" of writing should only ever be thought of as <em> guidelines </em>. <strong>A Sympathetic Character With Depth.</strong> In a story, you always want your main character to be a <em>symapthetic</em> MC. Why? Otherwise, all the readers will hate him/her. In other words, make your main character likable. Even if he/she might not be entirely 100% likable, we should at least be able to relate to him/her in some way. Let it be noted that even our story's villains should have some sympathetic aspect about them, too. Of course, we also want characters with depth. <em>Thou Shalt Have No Stereotyped Character as Thy MC!</em> Please. O_O I know that sometimes it's okay to have stereotypical characters. And stereotypes are always necessary to some degree, because sometimes there's some truth to them. But if you're writing a YA novel, you especially don't want this to happen. And even more especially if you're writing a romance. A lot of the time I see very typical characters in YA novels. It just makes it a whole ton worse if you've got the double whammy of having a stereotypical character that has no depth. If you want to see what this looks like, see Bella and Edward. Or Zoey from the House of Night series. Sorry if you like those books. I'm not saying that to some people they aren't entertaining. There's a lot more to a character than a name and an appearance. Always, always ask why your character chooses something. Don't let that "why" lead to simple answers, like "because she likes helping people" or "because she has [insert tragic past here, usually pertaining to a dysfunctional family]". And always make sure that "why" is consistent with their personality. Which brings me to character development. <strong>Epiphanies. They help you develop you character.</strong> Well, right now your character probably has a certain perspective on life. Challenge that. Make your character come to a certain realization about something. No, it's not that easy. ^_^ For instance, I may have a character who, at the beginning of the novel, thinks that all girls who dye their hair pink are evil. I put her into situations where she is forced to get to know girls who dye their hair pink. Her opinion changes. Also, don't make the epiphany happen instantly. You want it to be believable. For instance, you wouldn't think it believable if my MC, who hates girls who dye their hair pink, go from hating them to loving them in the course of two paragraphs. You need to set it up in such a way that when the time comes, it's believable. On that note, don't "tell" the epiphany your MC has. Show it. ^_^ HOW? O___O Well, ever seen the movie The Shawshank Redemption? Know that part where Red starts actually hoping? He's come to an epiphany. Did he say it right out? He could have just said, "And I realized Andy was right... Hope is a good thing..." No. Instead you see him read the letter, start traveling, and talking about how he hopes he sees his friend well. Ohyeah. If you haven't seen that movie, go watch it. Now. <strong>Largest. Paragraph. Evar. </strong> Going on lengthy descriptions of things, monologues, that's all fine and good on occasion, but watch out. You don't want to end up with a giant block of paragraph that could rival Dickens. Why? Because people (like me) tend to go into freak out mode when they see giant blocks of text. Then we skim it instead of read it, or skip over it. Make sure to hit the ENTER key every now and again, 'kay? New subject, new line. Even if it's only a <em>slight</em> change of subject. <strong>Grammar is an almost always.</strong> Grammar rules should almost always be followed, but even then, we might choose to break a couple. For instance, I use sentence fragments frequently in my novel. Always remember to watch out for the dreadful comma splice. This is incorrect: Jane saw him, and ran. The way to correct this is: Jane saw him, and she ran. Also, correct dialogue grammar is definitely needed. Instead of going off on a tangent here, I shall give ya'll a helpful link. Just remember to never, never do this: "I want an elephant." Jane said. Or this: "I want an elephant" Jane said. Helpful link: http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/2062147/rules_of_grammar_and_punctuation_in.html?cat=38 <strong>Natural Dialogue.</strong> I've seen so many people do this: <em>"I hate you!" Jane screeched angrily. She pointed the gun at him. "Stop!" Carlos exclaimed. "Why should I listen to you?" she questioned. "I love you," he said simply. She shook her head. Tears streamed down her face. "I hate you," she cried, "I hate you for what you did to my brother!"</em> Long story short, all of those tags clog up your novel and make the reader remember that they're reading a story. Use "said". It's brilliant and invisible. Of course, we can occasionally use things like questioned, exclaimed, whispered, etc. That's what they're there for. When you feel tired of using "said" you can always do the whole ping-pong dialogue thing. Oh, I love doing that. Remember. The rules are merely guidelines. We can choose to break them. <strong>Information Dump Overload.</strong> People do this in dialogue and just in the regular story-telling. Here's a helpful link for this one: http://shalleemcarthur.blogspot.com/2011/06/how-to-write-info-dumps-that-arent.html Information dumps most of the time just aren't fun. Of course, sometimes information dumps are necessary when you're writing a novel in 30 days and have no time to edit. <strong>I'm worried my character's going to become a Mary Sue. D: </strong> Listen to me and listen closely. Don't try too hard. If you try too hard (like I once did), you're going to end up going into panic mode and making your character so flawed that they become unlikable or become a danger to anybody and everybody. Just focus on making a realistic character. If you do that, chances are you won't end up with a Mary Sue. ^^ <strong>Wow. I said a lot. O___O</strong> ..... Yipes. I typed a huge block of text. Umm... Remember, the rules of writing are only guidelines. They're there for you to break. Thu, 10 Nov 2011 05:52:22 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=4#forum_thread_comment_602163 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=4#forum_thread_comment_602163 Piper the Perfect "Off-the-rails-terrified" "Kind of chubby" "Monstrous" Those are the annoyingly vague descriptions I get out of a book I'm reading. It's a real shame too, the story is wonderful, written in great pace, the characters are likeable, realistic, and redeemable. The setting is perfect, but gosh darn it the descriptions take me out of it. And you can be vague while describing the big bad monster. That's COMPLETELY fine. But don't do it with everything you describe. I keep thinking of the main character as skinny because all I got was "kind of chubby, and his mother warns him away from sweets." And this author has published a lot of books, and sold a ton, praised by R.L Stine. Obviously middle school book placed in a high school library. But me, I always have to finish what I start, and I need to figure out who the monster is, I have a pretty clear idea, and I'm only 30 pages in. Killer pizza, forget who the author is. I love so much about it, but I just can't get over the descriptions, they take me out of it, and I don't like that. When I'm reading I like to be submerged, not reading some half arsed descriptions when it's trying to make you terrified. Thought for five minutes and I came up with something better than "off-the-rails-terrified" Came up with most of it yesterday. Beginning couple of lines just now. Her bare feet now thankfully numb due to the fact they were covered in blood as she continued to scrape along more twigs of the forest. Feeling the salty sweat drip past her lips as she attempted to find her pursuer in the pitch black behind her. [I] Oh god, how did I end up here? [/I] Granted my inner editor wants to fix it(she's a beast since I attempted to give her a vacation on Nanowrimo, only making guest appearances in November(thank god). But I think that's better than "off-the-rails-terrified." And would really help a reader start to feel the fear of the character. And I don't even write horror! Sun, 29 Jan 2012 05:39:04 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=4#forum_thread_comment_1097464 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=4#forum_thread_comment_1097464 Piper the Perfect salty sweat blur her vision as it dripped down her face* is a better description of that. Sun, 29 Jan 2012 06:01:17 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=4#forum_thread_comment_1097505 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=4#forum_thread_comment_1097505 Josie Cloos I agree with the reasoning behind number one but if the character has a reason to be noticing and naming their features then it's all good. I once had a character, who was very beautiful. All the guys wanted her and though she wasn't complaining there was a scene where she was looking in the mirror, wondering what they were seeing that she wasn't. I don't remember the exact way it went but it was something like "What was it? My eyes, I'll admit are a pretty shade of blue, but they're almost too far apart. My long blonde hair would be an asset if not for it being so life less. My nose, pretty much almost too big for my face...the scene ended with her again questioning what was it? It was told in first person and she had good reason for looking intently at herself and stating what she was seeing. I also agree with the reasoning behind #3 but again, if there's a good reason. Maybe the frail woman isn't the brightest watt in the bulb or she has an over powering curiosity about things. Of course this should be established well before said scene but if it is, her going to check out what the screaming and blood is all about would be the obvious thing for her to do. My advice would be, if you're going to go against the guidlines and I highly recommend doing so whenever you can, do it intelligently. Sun, 16 Oct 2011 15:27:53 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_78559 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_78559 Saheen The thing about 3, though is, we all do that when we're watching (for example) horror films. "Why are you doing that?! Don't go in there! Why does nobody ever call the police?" , and yeah, you could see it as lazy writing, but it's also a defining part of the genre that characters always make the wrong decision. Otherwise, well, there would be no movie, would there? I'm not saying you should have your characters fall into every obvious trap that comes their way, but in the end a lot of the dramatic tension in stories comes from the mistakes characters make. Have you ever read a book/seen a movie where the characters did everything right? I think that would probably be a pretty boring story. Sun, 16 Oct 2011 20:33:43 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_80153 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_80153 wombatrider I think I remember Amelia Atwater-Rhodes doing #1 in her first book she'd ever written/published. I think if it's YA, you might be able to get away with doing this. While reading it, I was like "hmmm... odd, but informative! I semi-like it!" It didn't throw me off. I think she was getting ready for school. Maybe if the character is annoyed with something that always seems to draw their attention while looking at themselves. Mon, 17 Oct 2011 22:27:23 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_93942 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_93942 ASongInMyHead I don't know... I've read some books where onomatopoeias were used brilliantly (Patrick Ness's Chaos Walking trilogy, for example). I'd say don't use them unless you know fully how to get the sound across... pun intended. Tue, 18 Oct 2011 00:42:56 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_94947 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_94947 Rae666 Unfortunately, I think what you have here in your post is a case of badly used onomatopoeia. In well used onomatopoeia, the sound words are made separate from the text. Instead, they add to it. And really, you would be surprised just how many words are onomatopoeic and that sometimes, people don't even realise they're using them. For example: "The spool fell from his grip, landing with a clatter and a splash in the bowl below." Clatter and splash aren't separate from the text and they don't jump out at you. They're subtle words that allow the writer to use onomatopoeia to emphasise the noise made by the spoon. Wed, 19 Oct 2011 22:35:38 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_123273 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_123273 cityscapes101 I always agreed with number one but I'm kind of confused as to how I can tell readers what my character looks like in a more interesting way. Here's what I wrote, I'm open to suggestions: When I looked up, I couldn’t help observing myself in the mirror, because the face that looked back at me wasn’t something that could quite be defined. The face that stared back at me was the result of thousands of choices. And what had they made? My skin was still its tan, caramel, Nauset brown; my eyes were still as wide as they were intent in their deep milk chocolate shade. My hair was still wild and manic, the darkest of browns with few mahogany streaks here and there, the blanket of shoulder length curls framing my face. It was the face of normality, the face of purposelessness. Uselessness. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 07:46:47 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_582125 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_582125 Kimberly Dawn Everything can be broken if done well, but you won't know how that is done well until someone risks and does it. And everyone writes differently. I assert this is the only two rules you need and I shall demonstrate how this works. 1. Bianca pulled at her kinky hair, shamed that her hair was not straight like that of the rest of her class. Why couldn't it be straight? She wished it could be straight and it would behave like the long smooth locks of Linda. Her eyes didn't look that good. Filter it through character POV. Done. The problem is the lack of selection or a mirror that happens to be there without the way the characters sees herself or how it changes. That's how you use a mirror. 2. Onomatopoeia can be used as part of regular speech. The car screeched around the corner. That's a whole lot better than "The car went around the corner very fast so it made a high pitched noise." The cat meowed is better than the cat made a sound that was platative and medium pitched. 3. Characters are sometimes really that dumb or act that dumb on purpose (See Colombo). There are approximately 5%, I believe something like that in a fire scenario where they will physically go to check out the fire WITH the alarms going. Yes, people are that dumb. I know the phenomenon of the flying pig (or so my family dubs it) where people feel they need to stop and stare at an accident to see what happened. People also gather around police tape too and ask questions. So yes, people are that dumb in real life, so I'll write characters that dumb. For good character development they need to make dumb decisions once in a while. Fall behind their wants or their needs. Any rule can be broken as long as it is done well. And if you try to break this rule, you create a paradox. It's a win. Instead of saying what you shouldn't do, list a rule and show how to break it. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 09:03:31 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_583894 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_583894 Mogget128723 There are exceptions to the first rule you listed; for instance, a character with amnesia, or a character that has just come to life for the first time. My NaNo story this year begins with the main character, a living human that was artificially built, waking up with no knowledge of what she looks like and no memory of being awake before that moment. In cases similar to this, I believe it's acceptable for a character to notice their own basic features. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 09:15:33 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_584179 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_584179 WastedVengeance Hmm, number one is debatable. It really depends on the situation. On any given day you wouldn't notice things like your eye or hair color, but if there were extensional circumstances then it might be okay. Like if the character had lost their memories or something like that then it would be appropriate to describe themselves in a mirror. Number three is also very debatable. sometimes a character makes stupid decisions based on a myriad of different variable such as stress and other stuff. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 10:09:48 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_585304 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_585304 Ashrazan Very nice answers, I have to admit I have done #1 in a short story but my excuse was he had no idea what he looked like. But it is a very good point. Oh dear, I've spent so much time in my novel explaining Why my characters are doing what they are doing...it's actually a bit exhausting...I wish much better luck to everyone else..... Wed, 09 Nov 2011 11:52:34 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_587418 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_587418 WeirdGirlParadigms I think a big thing with me is not writing like I have to explain everything to the reader, let him imagine some things for himself/herself. Sometimes I wonder whether or not a story is truly good because of the writing or because of my amazing imagination taking it to the next level? But it is just impossible for me to separate the two when I'm reading someone else's novel...and I think that's a good thing. So now I have to remember as a writer to just give the reader room to let their imagination soar, maybe they will take my novel to places I didn't even know it could go... I don't know if that makes sense. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 13:56:59 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_590107 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_590107 rainsong Eek I have used onomatopoeias in my novel - ok not a lot, just the sound on a small bell twice and I never like it, it seemed childish to me and this confirms it - I am going to go back and change it right now! Wed, 09 Nov 2011 17:25:26 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_593517 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_593517 rubberbend Tell me then, how do I use my onomatopoeias? Or how do I work around them, if I should? When's the right time and place to use them? Wed, 09 Nov 2011 23:18:25 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_596155 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_596155 shireyk I don't know about your number 2. I think it is a personal preference and also something that each writer has to decide for themselves. The decision to use onomatopoeias is something that has to do with each writer's particular style. You would not expect Bertha Mason to leap from the roof of Thornfield with a WHOOSH and a wretched AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH! but onomatopoeias surely have their place in the world of novel-writing, don't you think? Thu, 10 Nov 2011 03:42:03 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_599817 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_599817 jilliangrace23 I like the things written in this blog, but here' s the one thing I have come to know as a writer and as a teacher of writers. Write, write, write. Then REWRITE. EDIT!!! The whole premise of NaNoWriMo is to write, write, write so that you just get it out. Because getting your butt in the chair to get the words out is the key to being a writer. Not talent, or experience, or having a story you can spin into a franchise to make millions. Your butt in the chair to do the work. So write! If you character wants to describe themselves in a mirror, let them! If they want to scream "You're a poopy fart-face!" when they're made, let them! If you want to use onomatopoeias, do it! Let the car VROOM or the exhaust pipe go BANG! And if your character makes a less than common choice, roll with it. Get it on paper. No one writes a great novel in the first draft. For evidence of this, read any interview with a writer. Read Stephanie Meyer's partial draft of Midnight Sun (but be warned, it's ROUGH). First drafts, which is what we're creating in NaNoWriMo are ROUGH drafts. Let them be rough. The trick is to be brave enough to go back, give your work an objective (or as objective a look as you can) and fix it. In the rewriting, you think "maybe it is a little weird that my character has just stopped in the middle of the day to describe themselves in the mirror." And then you find a better way of communicating what the character looks like. Maybe you go back and reread and realize that no one gives a flying-you-know-what about the sound the car makes, so you take it out. And perhaps your character is a ditz and usually misses the obvious choice, so they do the not-obvious thing. Maybe they aren't, so you erase that "gripping scene" you wrote for the better good of the novel and move on. Be brave, be bold, and make mistakes in your first (rough) draft. GET THE WORDS OUT. Then go back and fix them. "I'm not a very good writer, but I'm an excellent rewriter." James Michener, 1948 winner of the Pulitzer Prize for Tales of the South Pacific (the work South Pacific was based on). Thu, 10 Nov 2011 03:51:55 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_599980 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_599980 Circe Marda Got it! Wait, I'm confused. Sat, 22 Oct 2011 00:40:32 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_155995 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_155995 Karin_Photo Hey - that's MY line!!! ;P Wed, 09 Nov 2011 19:50:13 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_594604 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_594604 n0c7u4 Yes sir! :D Wed, 09 Nov 2011 23:00:10 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_595998 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_595998 RainDropReverie Classic advice that's both vague and precise at the same time! :) And sometimes difficult to follow. I'm editing something right now, admittedly a fanfic, as good practice for more serious efforts and discovering I broke this rule all over the place. This teaches me a lot. Namely, to not write things when I'm half asleep that's based on a dream and just post it as is on the internet. Some of the stuff I'm leaving as is because the piece amuses me to be a little bad/trite, but some I'm changing as it makes me twitch to see it. Showing via action and detail rather than just telling the reader straight up what's going on. Sun, 16 Oct 2011 17:06:29 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_79269 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_79269 moonmomma show when showing works best, and tell when telling works best. Wed, 19 Oct 2011 04:01:09 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_110798 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_110798 cityscapes101 I always thought that advice was used when writing screenplays or plays not novels. In novels I thought you should do both. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 07:47:36 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_582145 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_582145 Kimberly Dawn Unless you live in China, Korea, or Japan, where info dumps are standard. Oh and India, where the conflict may not start until much later. Or you're writing a fairytale. Are we talking after 1930's? 'cause I believe Gertrude Stein was the one that made this pivotal change. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 09:06:27 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_583961 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_583961 lacrosse257 Funny... that's what my teacher says. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 09:26:47 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_584425 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_584425 rally.the.legions Actually, a more accurate statement would be "Show AND Tell". The hard part is knowing when to do which. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 10:21:08 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_585542 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_585542 Word-Smith I learned this in creative writing class. xD Like, giving hints about the characters by subtly describing them, without being a writer who says "their dark eyebrows and their sinister eyes and their evil lips" lol. Like Stephen King said, don't give features personalities. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 13:12:20 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_589060 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_589060 morasue "This teaches me a lot. Namely, to not write things when I'm half asleep that's based on a dream and just post it as is" It worked for Stephanie Meyer, why not you? lol Thu, 20 Oct 2011 13:34:24 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_136046 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_136046 Katsuro Good advice, that. "Said" is one of the few invisible words in the language. Mon, 17 Oct 2011 02:16:27 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_82336 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_82336 MeBeBri Absolutely. "Said" can never be oversaid. Except in examples like that, where oversaid is not a word... Tue, 18 Oct 2011 08:07:35 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_100377 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_100377 Unit7 I also agree. There is nothing wrong with a few 'saidisms' thrown in but there is nothing wrong with the word Said. Of course as long as its established who is talking you don't even need to write said or a saidism. Wed, 19 Oct 2011 09:28:34 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_115745 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_115745 A.Liberman Exactly! There's very few things more distracting than an author who never uses "said.". I read a mystery a few years back which had an excellent plot, funny characters and a ton of potential, but I found myself thinking more about the awkward avoidance of "said" than the story. Overuse of phrases like "he rasped" or "she growled" annoy me as well, being physically impossible. Unless a joke is made of it, ie "you may not think it's possible to hiss a word with no s's, but he managed it quite well." Wed, 09 Nov 2011 12:26:13 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_588115 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_588115 TheGildedFox I would agree with this, especially for horror movies. I mean, come on, if all the characters just avoided the dark alleys and basements and haunted mental hospitals, then we wouldn't HAVE any horror movies. However, its important that when these characters make stupid moves, that you acknowledge somehow, through some sort of dramatic device that they are acting stupidly. Too many times, I see characters that the narrator/author has repeatedly described as intelligent, smart, quick-witted and brave doing nothing but stupid things just so that they can have a gripping scene. THAT's lazy writing. Stupid characters can do stupid things, but we have to be able to trust that the narrator/author is just as aware of their stupidity as we are. If I'm watching a movie thinking "Uh oh, he's gonna go in the basement, I KNEW he was gonna be the first to die..." then you can say the writer accomplished his job. But if I'm sitting there thinking "Did the writer seriously expect us to just forget that the dead man in the passenger seat has the keys to the car in his pocket just so the main heroine can hotwire the car just to show off how awesome she is while the bad guys are catching up with them?" then there's a problem. In other words, go through every decision your characters make and ask yourself, "Is this really what my character would do in this situation or am I just playing puppeteer?" Wed, 19 Oct 2011 17:04:17 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_121323 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_121323 Crepuscule Superman does everything right. No it wasn't boring. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 07:30:24 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_581769 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_581769 sacherjj If you remove all of the "ly" demon adverbs, your writing improves. If you still think it needs to be there, you did not describe the situation enough or your dialog is weak. Adverbs are there, because you don't have trust in your readers to understand the situation without them. Trust the readers. Tue, 18 Oct 2011 01:08:07 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_95223 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_95223 Ashrazan Indeed, but it bothers me when an author doesn't specify and the words could be taken any way because they haven't been connected to the character's thoughts. I found most of the sixth Harry Potter book to be that way. Sure people said things, but there was no emotion in it to me on the other hand the movie was well done because you could hear and see what was really going on in the character's heads. Let's face it, people don't always mean what they say and in real life and tone of voice is everything. Personally, I like to put that into my writing. You can say "That's great," happily, irritably, sarcastically, flatly, evilly....I know that's a horrendous list of adverbs but I hope you still get the point. Characters aren't just supposed to talk, they're supposed to live... Wed, 09 Nov 2011 12:16:35 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_587918 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_587918 Unit7 My rule of thumb on Write What You know rule is this. If you don't know it, research it. :D But you should first have some understanding of what you are writing about. Read articles, interview people, watch some good high quality documentaries, and such. That way it slowly becomes something you do know. :) Wed, 19 Oct 2011 09:32:15 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_115803 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_115803 Widom I've always heard "write what you know" to mean emotions and reactions, not facts. I mean, facts can be researched, but if you understand being afraid of being homeless or something, use that. Mon, 07 Nov 2011 17:00:45 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_544364 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_544364 sbhsdgd96 or worse, 'the singer said' when the sentence in question had nothing to do with the character being a singer. Mon, 17 Oct 2011 08:04:00 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_86275 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_86275 Kimberly Dawn Exception: You don't have a character name, only a title (Because calling them by name is enough to get your head chopped off. See Tale of Genji--Genji is not the character's actual name.) or your character is absolutely horrible at remembering names. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 09:56:10 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_585026 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_585026 Ashrazan I don't write fanfic but this is definitely one of my faults....I hate writing a character's name all of the time... Wed, 09 Nov 2011 12:18:29 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_587961 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_587961 Word-Smith What if the main character is looking at another, and they don't know the other's name? Can they use physical indications to identify? If it's in first person, that is. Like, I saw the girl in the hat across the street again, this time walking much slower than every other sunny morning that week. Today she was wearing a slender grey coat, with fluff on the front. I couldn't see her face; I could never see her face. So she will always remain the girl in the hat. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 13:20:40 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_589299 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_589299 Kayla Rain STARWARS FTW. Fri, 09 Dec 2011 08:31:01 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_952483 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_952483 Angelynx THIS THIS. I have a horrible time trying to express how handsome my guys are without just fangirling all over them. SHAME ON ME. And as a government drone, I have developed a permanent hate for long vague words. If I see "ambulate" for "walk" once more, I really will scream at the screen. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 23:00:17 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_595999 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_595999 FrogC John Gardner needs to work on his grammar. Those are neither gerunds nor infinitives (which are not the same thing), but participles. Fri, 21 Oct 2011 00:53:57 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_140943 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_140943 AlyRuth This. "I'm a cheerleader this year!" said Kirsten to Lola. "That's great that you made the team! Who are you cheering for?" Lola asked. "Football, of course!" the blonde-headed cheerleader giggled. Mon, 17 Oct 2011 08:39:37 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_86682 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_86682 Dreamie Oh god, yes. That has to be one of my main irritants while reading a book. Mon, 07 Nov 2011 18:59:49 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_545535 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_545535 forlornshadow here's a rule for that. Names are identifiers but they can get boring real quick as well as the pronouns him, her, she, he...etc. So if the READER knows something about the character then you can use the longer describer. Example: It has already been established earlier in the story that one of the main characters is a prince and that he has been renounced because of something he did. "How in the world am I supposed to eat this?" asked Aaron holding up a dead rabbit. "You cook it," answered Zion. "I realize that but how?" asked the former prince. Then I would continue the dialogue without names or identifiers. We already established who is speaking and in which order so you don't need to say it. This usually applies for conversations between two people and is not recommended for use with more than that because its confusing if you don't know how to use it properly. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 13:41:14 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_589783 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_589783 Arynn Exactly! I always wonder where the cheerleader came from. Wed, 19 Oct 2011 06:58:56 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_113404 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_113404 wombatrider This is especially nice to make note of, in this day and age. A few years back, I was getting really discouraged in my writing because I kept wanting to be prompted to write, instead of writing. I kept wanting to know how to accomplish something, so I went on a writing-how-to safari online that eventually left a bad taste in my mouth. I think the best thing to keep in mind while writing, is not let things distract you. Even if they seem helpful, it can eventually be harmful. If you begin to feel overwhelmed by the mere act of writing, that's the time where you just cast everything you've "learned" aside and get back to basics. Get back to the nitty-gritty. Get back to writing spontaneously and without your inner-editor perched on your shoulder. Cultivate innocence and naivete when writing has become too daunting. This is when you throw caution to the wind, and just dive right in. Mon, 17 Oct 2011 22:37:37 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_93995 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_93995 forlornshadow true so true Wed, 09 Nov 2011 13:42:27 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_589817 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_589817 Earthsick Thank you for this because I got discouraged while reading (sometimes only skimming) this thread. 2011 was my first time writing my novel in English and reading that I shouldn't refer to my main character as "the mage" like I did from time to time made my heart drop. I mean, my characters do a lot of things and going from Name1 to Name 2 to Name1 to Name2 when only one of them is a mage is kind of annoying. There are so many rules that it makes me think that it's the best idea ever to never ever show my stuff to other people because they hate it for the little things they seem to dislike. (Btw, the only time the main character's eye colour was ever mentioned was in the second half of this 200k monster and only because one of the other characters wanted to distract him from something else. "Oh, you have xy eyes, I never noticed before!" - since I let people vote for the eye colour it is, *sigh*, hazel.) Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:40:22 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_1087392 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_1087392 agreysky I really love this advice. Fri, 21 Oct 2011 03:00:07 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_142455 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_142455 Chillibean Me too. Chekov's one of the people we study in drama, so I don't particularly like him for giving me so much work. But that quote... brilliant. I think I've changed my mind about him. Fri, 21 Oct 2011 16:45:34 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_153371 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_153371 Angelynx [quote=.the.blue.dinosaur.] Show, don't tell. There's a quote that I really like on this: "Don't tell me that the moon is shining; show me the glint of light on broken glass." - Anton Chekov [/quote] That's exquisite! I'm going to copy it and keep it by my screen. (and it reminds me how much moonlight I've used in the first 1/4 of my book.) Thank you for passing it along. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 23:04:34 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_596042 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_596042 Rosina Rowantree [quote]Great idea, Jane." Jane glared at Bob. It might not have been the smartest idea ever, but Bob had not managed to come up with anything better.[/quote] Or [quote]Great idea, Jane," Bob said, then felt guilty as he saw how much his words had meant to the girl. She was always slow to recognise when people were teasing her.[/quote] Mon, 17 Oct 2011 22:57:03 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_94134 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_94134 Katsuro No sunch thing as a sarastic tone of voice? Sure there is, friend. Whenever somebody says "Great. Just great." without sounding like she really thinks it's great, that's the sarcastic tone of vocie; a tone that doesn't suit the sentiment of the words. Mon, 17 Oct 2011 23:03:59 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_94188 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_94188 DozyCat It isn't always obvious from the context though, and elaborating the context to make it clear isn't always a viable option. If Bill is normally a serious sort of character, who doesn't poke fun at people, then maybe it's just better to point out that here he's being sarcastic. If he's normally snarky and superior, then there's no need. Wed, 19 Oct 2011 17:34:28 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_121498 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_121498 jefflion I agree it might work in YA, because teens are often preoccupied with their physical appearance and their body is changing. Ok, now I'm making teens seem unreliable/shallow. Not all teens do it, of course. But I do think it's less strange for a teen to look herself in a mirror and think: "I wish my hair was a bit lighter; it's almost black so it makes me look too pale, like a ghost", than a woman in her 30s to do it. (Horrible example. But you get the idea.) Still, I do think "describing yourself while looking at the mirror" thing should be avoided. Mon, 17 Oct 2011 22:34:41 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_93977 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_93977 tab105 I remember that scene in "In the Forests of the Night". Risika is doing that because she wants to make sure she rembembers how she looked as a human, and how she looks now after her reflection disappears. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 07:42:00 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_582024 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_582024 karinlynn68 Oh thank you, wombatrider, for writing that the mirror thing might work in YA. I just clicked on the forum link to see what was happening here, saw this post, read #1 and realized I'd written a mirror scene *just* last night. I groaned! I re-read what I wrote, however, and thought, "You know, when I was 12, I was constantly at the mirror evaluating, criticizing, noticing changes, noting things I liked." Yes, I'm working on a YA novel, so I was somewhat relieved to read that there are others who feel this could work in YA. I wrote a rather large note to myself, though, to make sure when I revise to reconsider its use. But I think I might have "broken the guideline" appropriately, however, and I agree with the commenters here that in YA, it might work, especially as my character is evaluating her appearance in addition to describing, and then comparing herself to her best friend. So, a question: in what other ways would you have a teen talk about the things she (or he) likes or does not like about his or her appearance? Isn't it kind of logical this happens in front of a mirror? Am I the only one that did this when I was a teen? How else would you approach a teen doing this sort of self-evaluation? Wed, 09 Nov 2011 22:58:17 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_595980 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_595980 jefflion in the mirror... Why don't we have "edit post" button? Oh, another thing about using mirrors to describe characters- it's really difficult to do it without being "gimmicky" or strange. I even read a novel written in the third person that had a scene like this. I don't get it. Mon, 17 Oct 2011 22:37:18 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_93993 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_93993 pegleg kitty Instead of looking in the mirror, she could be buying eye shadow. If she's an artist, she would know that the latest fad-packaging that touts blue for blue eyes fails color-theory - to bring out blue, go opposite on the color wheel, which is peach or maybe brown. Or, if she's a redhead, she could try on clothes and WHAT color left her washed out. Fri, 21 Oct 2011 09:30:33 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_148023 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_148023 jefflion A good one. Mon, 17 Oct 2011 23:14:34 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_94253 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_94253 RamblingArtistNina Is it just me, or do Mary-Sue fics have this a lot? Wed, 09 Nov 2011 13:08:20 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_588984 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_588984 Kimberly Dawn Exception--the sole purpose of the people being there is a Foil effect. The historical terminology, rather than the literary. Literally there to make your rich and plain character look better by having even more plain characters. Exception to every rule. Thu, 10 Nov 2011 01:02:37 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_597260 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_597260 AlyRuth Agreed, but be cautious. We've all had those moments where there's like 20 quotations in a row without dialogue tags and we forget who's talking and how to count by two's to see who's saying what, so refresh the reader's memory every few lines. Tue, 18 Oct 2011 07:07:12 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_99381 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_99381 RainDropReverie I tried the "action" thing unconsciously, but not done it properly because my 'editor' friend kept telling me to add "character name said" to clarify. Maybe I wasn't using the character name often enough, but I think she's the sort who believes "character name said" is the best way to be sure the reader knows who was speaking. Though if someone's getting interrupted, it's not necessary to use it. Tue, 18 Oct 2011 16:21:36 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_106218 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_106218 A. Leigh Something else Mag Ed has taught me: In long blocks of dialogue, introduce the speaker after the first sentence. If you are putting more than one block of dialogue said by different characters, tag the second block before the speaking starts. This way, the reader knows who is saying what. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 09:52:41 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_584961 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_584961 rehtse Agreed. Ness's use of Onomatopoeia was brilliant. Add so much to that series. Wed, 19 Oct 2011 14:31:59 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_119881 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_119881 moonmomma Adverbs have their place. Usually a stonger verb can be found, or things can be described, but not always. And sometimes doing it that way leads to excess wordiness in a passage where the wordiness isn't justified (for example, in a passage of dialogue, having to use two or three sentences to describe a fleeting expression, thus disrupting the pace of the dialogue). If an adverb most accurately conveys what you want to say in the appropriate amount of space, use an adverb. Wed, 19 Oct 2011 04:08:39 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_110900 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_110900 rainstorm. Well what about Katsuro's first example? Without "sarcastically", it'd be harder to tell if Bill is being genuine or not. Because he could be in context. Sun, 23 Oct 2011 10:41:00 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_176457 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_176457 tab105 You can't just cut adverbs, the modify all your great adjectives. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 07:52:37 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_582267 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_582267 A. Leigh Also with adverbs: I have recently been told (over and over again) by my Magazine Editing professor that a great way to cut down on adverbs, replace "very" with "damn." If you would use damn in the sentence, you can use very. This probably works better for the magazine industry, but it's still a good exercise for novelists. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 09:39:15 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_584681 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_584681 Unit7 I am pretty sure this would be the correct way to fix those examples. "It means that you shouldn't use the wrong kind of dialogue tags." Susan smiled. and "I'm not sure what you're talking about." Susan scowled. Yeah I know I just changed the comma to a period. But what these are are Beats. They are actions the characters does before, after, and in between dialogue. In your case it does describe how they speak the words. or something. Grammar was never something I was great at. But I read a blog detailing the mechanics of dialogue. Wed, 19 Oct 2011 09:49:08 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_116034 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_116034 Dreamie Which is why, I'm pretty sure, if I managed to finish my novel within the time frame, December will see about half of those 50k words snipped away into oblivion. Some of them even based on recommendations from this very thread. But to worry about this right now would only serve to scare me off writing. Maybe I'll at least have a novella in the end. &gt;_&gt;; Mon, 07 Nov 2011 19:12:13 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_545632 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_545632 AlyRuth *and we forget who's talking and we have go back up and count by two's to see who's saying what Tue, 18 Oct 2011 07:11:11 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_99445 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_99445 Earthsick I get confused after approx. 4 lines of dialogue without tags. I know that doesn't sound much but it's true. I got confused in 'About a Boy' for example. Other books too. Sometimes the dialogue is hard to pin down to a character because suddenly the lines become too similar. Funny enough, I don't seem to be the only one. Only in grey theory you can work more than 4 dialogue lines without tags without it getting confusing. Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:44:51 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_1087395 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_1087395 Chillibean Yes! I'm not the only one who does that! =D I also tend to skip over people's names, because usually you can tell who's speaking by what they say. But sometimes their tones are really similar and I get confused. Fri, 21 Oct 2011 16:47:15 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_153379 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_153379 Crepuscule Trainspotting, nuff said. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 07:52:48 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_582272 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_582272 Unit7 Definitely agree. Sometimes writers need to realize that telling isn't the ultimate sin of writing. Wed, 19 Oct 2011 09:26:16 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_115716 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_115716 EvaTheVampireSlayer I very much agree. Sometimes I'll get writing assignments (I am unfortunately still in high school) back and the teachers will have yelled at me for telling. But the thing is, if you tell in an interesting way, than it can work just as good or even better than showing. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 08:43:33 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_583487 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_583487 Arynn But adverbs should still be used sparingly. And please please make them make sense. I just read "she smirked interiorly" in a published novel, ugh. Wed, 19 Oct 2011 06:57:31 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_113377 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_113377 keolah And yet your post would not make sense without the adverb "sparingly". ;) Wed, 19 Oct 2011 07:10:21 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_113550 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_113550 moonmomma [quote]I just read "she smirked interiorly" in a published novel[/quote] I consider myself a defender of the honor and (sparing) usefulness of adverbs, but even *I* wouldn't write that! O.o Wed, 19 Oct 2011 12:43:40 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_118491 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_118491 hlynn UGH. I still have yet to figure out 'rising ponderously' actually means. Adverbs, however, can be used in dialogue because we *do* talk with them, but keep them out of the rest of the prose as much as possible. Yes, they usually make you sound smart, but this story isn't about your vocab skills. It's, you know, about your characters, your plot, and not pulling your reader away from those things. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 12:26:10 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_588113 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_588113 Arynn True, turning it into an adjective makes it sound too poetic. "Rare are the times when an adverb is appropriate." Wed, 19 Oct 2011 08:40:23 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_115051 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_115051 this.is.a.username Also, there is more than one way of "telling." I found telling can be weaved into the story quite nicely when telling it to another character. As long as you tell it in the boundries of what the other character would want to know, and that it's done subtly. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 07:33:49 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_581844 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_581844 JamieKay [quote=Unit7] I am pretty sure this would be the correct way to fix those examples. "It means that you shouldn't use the wrong kind of dialogue tags." Susan smiled. and "I'm not sure what you're talking about." Susan scowled. Yeah I know I just changed the comma to a period. But what these are are Beats. They are actions the characters does before, after, and in between dialogue. In your case it does describe how they speak the words. or something. Grammar was never something I was great at. But I read a blog detailing the mechanics of dialogue. [/quote] Do you happen to have the site of the blog with this information? Always good to freshen up on the mechanics ya? Thu, 10 Nov 2011 00:47:44 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_597090 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_597090 AlyRuth I should clarify on that example. Your characters should not ALWAYS choose Y. Everyone makes stupid decisions occasionally. Everyone'also makes intelligent decisions occasionally also. You can lead the poor, frail lady down into the basement, but make her do SOMETHING intelligent eventually. Part of writing good characters in, obviously making them three-dimensional, and thus, life-like. Therefore, I'm not suggestion that you write your characters perfect and all-knowing 100% of the time, because, as I said, everyone makes mad decisions. It's part of being human. So make your characters human (unless they're unicorns), and give them good decisions and bad decisions. Also, I'm posting this part for clarification, as pointed out by 9308495840 people, these should be taken as guidelines. Not rules. As I called them above, they're suggestions. Consider them in your writing (maybe not till after the NaNo), and apply if you think they're necessarily. Thu, 20 Oct 2011 03:25:44 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_126638 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_126638 MikeAlx Surely the point is this: if a character does something dumb, give them sufficient motivation. It doesn't have to be a reason that would make *anyone* do it - it only has to work for the character. So, if they know it's dangerous to go down to the basement, establish that they're someone who's frequently overcome by their curiosity. They know it's dangerous, but they can't help themselves. Their behaviour may be dumb, but it's *consistent* with their character. We all know people who are excessively impulsive; we all know people who are ridiculously cautious. Both traits will, in different situations, cause behaviour that Jo Average might think stupid. It may seem *stupid*, but if the character is established properly, it won't seem *implausible*. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 03:13:25 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_576411 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_576411 keegan139 To add to this: a lot of what characters do in a horror movie that we call stupid is actually logical. We all yell at the little old lady for going down into the basement while we're watching, yet if you heard a friend cry out in real life, most of us would go to check on them. One of the best examples of this, I think, is when the power goes out. Any time the power goes out in a horror movie, the audience starts yelling that the character is stupid to go check out what happened, because of course the killer is waiting for them. Well, when the power goes out in my apartment, I go down to the basement to fix it. Do I stop to think that it's part of some maniac's plan to get me, or that maybe some monster cut the wires? Of course I do, I'm a writer, after all. But I go anyway, 'cause I'm not spending all night in the dark. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 07:12:42 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_581316 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_581316 moonmomma This, exactly. Fri, 21 Oct 2011 08:48:16 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_147425 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_147425 Kimberly Dawn There is always room for context building. Besides, it's better word count. Bill sat in his cubicle staring at his computer screen. He had so many reports to do, but he thought he could do them all. Maybe if he wasn't pressured so much he would make it. He was really hopeful. Jane leaned over his cubicle wall and said, "Hey." Bill stopped, trying to be respectful and looked up at Jane. "There is a bowling alley out in Colorado." "I can't go... I have reports to do. I think I can finish them on time." "Don't be a spoil sport, Bill, c''mon. Let's go." "The boss needs these tomorrow." Jane paused and looked up at the clock. "You can come back to the office afterwards." Bill stared back at his screen, the list seemingly getting longer. He pressed his lips together. He could survive this. "They lock up after 6--there is no way to reenter the building once you leave." "Come, it'll be fun, besides, is it really that important?" Bill nodded once, putting his hands on the keyboard. "It is." "Worst comes to worst, you can break in tomorrow morning--I know a security guard and you can put in the overtime. Though we're planning to get drinks later and--" Bill felt his blood boil, but he didn't want to be rude. His throat closed. "Great idea, Jane. I can tell the boss from jail why I didn't do the paperwork." Jane looked at Bill surprised. ^_^ Sarcasm gotten in with a relatively nice character. Done. Any questions? Anything else with Bill? I can do it all day. It's skill level. And notice I didn't use many tags 'cause I slid by dialogue tone and establishing character wants early. Make the dialogue stronger. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 10:13:35 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_585395 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_585395 Rae666 *Edit: The sound words AREN'T made separate from the text. Damn nano for not having an edit button. Wed, 19 Oct 2011 22:37:14 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_123283 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_123283 AlyRuth Ignore all the typos, pretty please. :) Thu, 20 Oct 2011 03:34:57 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_126786 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_126786 RainDropReverie lol Well, for one thing, it's a fanfic and for another, woah it's really bad! Reading over it makes me cringe and not in the 'it's so bad it must be good' way either. xD Sun, 23 Oct 2011 05:28:30 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_172616 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_172616 franthephoenix 1. Grammar advice will only improve your writing if you're willing to put the effort in to understand its limitations and usefulness. Anyone who tells you to cut out an entire word class is not knowledgeable enough about grammar to give such advice. 2. Rules are there to be broken, but only if you know what you're doing and why. Don't break rules for the hell of it -- do it because it sounds good. 3. Read your work aloud. It's notoriously difficult to judge the quality of your own writing, but if you can hear the lilt and flow of the words it can be easier to tell what does and doesn't work. 4.First drafts are allowed to be a bit rubbish. Write to your highest ability, but do not expect perfection first time round. 5. Don't be afraid to try out different techniques if you're not happy. Some writers only write linearly, others skip around in the plot or write the ending first. Some edit as they go, some don't. There's no right or wrong here, but if one method's getting you down, consider an alternative. Fri, 21 Oct 2011 02:43:59 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_142237 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_142237 MikeAlx I'm afraid it's a bit late for John Gardner to work on anything. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 03:15:40 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_576446 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_576446 keegan139 So, it's just like Stephanie Meyer? xD Wed, 09 Nov 2011 07:15:44 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_581393 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_581393 j.eckstrom I definitely like those books, too. The books that make you feel not quite right for several days afterwards are great. However, I wouldn't do so much recreational reading if every book required two to three days of convalescing. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 16:21:11 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_592699 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_592699 ShinyPebbles [quote=rainstorm.] Well what about Katsuro's first example? Without "sarcastically", it'd be harder to tell if Bill is being genuine or not. Because he could be in context. [/quote] But why should the reader be told at this point? Ambiguity, and letting the reader interpret the scene for himself, is IMO a good thing. That's why we present scenes instead of just summaries - so that the reader can interpret the events for themselves. Imagine that you're watching a movie and subtitles start rolling across the screen to explain all the ambiguities. ("Bill is being sarcastic here. Jane said that because she's angry that Joe didn't propose to her over dessert. The waiter is annoyed because of the small tip. No, the tablecloth is not supposed to be on fire.") You'd be annoyed and feel condescended to, wouldn't you? Mon, 07 Nov 2011 18:29:16 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_545250 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_545250 franthephoenix I'd add a couple of caveats to that. Sure, rules are there for a reason, but sometimes that reason is a very stupid one. Too many "rules" in Strunk and White, Fowler, etc., are either entirely subjective or plain wrong. Even the ones that are right are often vague and unuseful. You say you should break a rule only "when it's necessary and not otherwise", but what does this really mean? I can't think of *any* occasion where breaking a rule is necessary, but I can think of several where it will improve my writing to do so. I don't want to get into a long debate here and I do agree in general that rules should be followed... or rather, that *good* rules should be followed, while *bad* rules should be dismissed without thought. Fortunately, there are resources to help us tell the difference. <a href="http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/" rel="nofollow">Language Log</a> in particular offers fantastic guidance on that vein. Mon, 24 Oct 2011 07:52:46 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_187704 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_187704 Kimberly Dawn Shrunk and White is not a grammar guide, it's a style guide. Know the difference. Thu, 10 Nov 2011 01:06:20 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_597309 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_597309 poplopo This, absolutely. This is what any accomplished writer means when they say to write what you know. It's why an author like Ray Bradbury focuses a lot of his emotional content on a carefree childhood, or why Stephen King writes characters who struggle with addiction, or why Phillip K. Dick writes about.. well... trippy shit. (And is one of the reasons, in my opinion, why Twilight fails - there is no realistic emotion in that series because the author has never actually felt any of the emotions she writes about.) Tue, 08 Nov 2011 02:40:33 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_550291 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_550291 Kimberly Dawn It was amended later to mean this, though it didn't mean this originally. You can also research emotional reactions and play to them or purposefully provoke yourself into such situations so you do remember. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 09:54:15 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_584985 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_584985 poplopo In a move, though, you can hear a character's tone of voice. Sarcasm is most definitely a tone, and one not easily described other than using the word "sarcastically." If you're still trying to go with showing and not telling, saying "said sarcastically," still works, because you're not tediously laying out why he's being sarcastic, or what precisely he's thinking. You're just illustrating what his tone would be if you were hearing a conversation in real life. Tue, 08 Nov 2011 02:33:23 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_550193 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_550193 Kimberly Dawn Easy, drop the tag altogether. Skill level. "I think it's going to be a lovely day. Let's go out for a picnic!" Bill looked at the lovely storm clouds gathering over the house. he narrowed his eyes at them and glanced at the weather forecast. Rain clouds played as the cheery weatherman pointed at the screen behind him. "Great idea, Jane. Let's just go and do that." No tag necessary, there is enough set up and if you've set up Bill up to this point as being a sourpuss, all the better. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 09:51:40 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_584942 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_584942 KeikoCharna I tend to watch tv with the captions on and they often include notes about tone. It can be important information and if you can't hear it you need to get it another way. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 13:59:30 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_590163 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_590163 ShinyPebbles I don't know - what tone is sarcasm? There's a funny-voice sarcasm, yes, and a mock-cheerful sarcasm, but you can also be sarcastic with a flat, bland voice, or you could make the remark in a perfectly normal voice. To me, "sarcastically" doesn't describe a tone of voice, it instead serves as an explanation, and I don't want an explanation. If the line were instead: "Oh, that's a great idea," said Ben, his voice artificially bright. or "Oh, that's a great idea, said Ben, his tone flat. or "Oh, that's a... great idea," said Ben. or "Oh, that's a greeeeeeat idea," said Ben. I'd be OK with it, and I think that it would still communicate enough information. Tue, 08 Nov 2011 14:12:04 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_566826 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_566826 EvaTheVampireSlayer Although, apparently Bella is based on her. Which adds an extreme ick factor. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 08:46:17 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_583524 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_583524 CrazyMomofFive You could also do something like: Bill rolled his eyes, "Great idea, Jane." Wed, 09 Nov 2011 09:30:18 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_584514 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_584514 Word-Smith [quote=ShinyPebbles] If the line were instead: "Oh, that's a great idea," said Ben, his voice artificially bright. or "Oh, that's a great idea," said Ben, his tone flat. [/quote] Damn, this is a very awesome way to change it from creating a tone to showing how the character said it. It's creating character, not atmosphere. ^_^ Wed, 09 Nov 2011 13:16:50 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_589194 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_589194 writer_mercia Like Harry Potter. He KNOWS he shouldn't have gone all these dark, dangerous places without an adult, and yet he does it anyway. Every single time. :P It's just part of his character. If he passed up on an opportunity to do something heroically stupid, we'd wonder what happened to him. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 10:42:29 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_585993 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_585993 PhantomDream ^^^THIS. This whole exchange just made my day. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 15:33:20 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_591963 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_591963 Bewitched.Rhapsody Yes. This. Exactly. ^_^ Thu, 10 Nov 2011 06:01:48 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_602329 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_602329 Spring14Idaho So true! We heard noises outside our house the other night. In a horror film, you'd be screaming, "Don't go outside, you doofus!" In real life, my husband grabbed the gun and checked it out. It was the neighbor's horse kicking the fence. But if it had been in my novel ... Wed, 09 Nov 2011 09:05:48 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_583945 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_583945 forlornshadow I like how you think. Part of the thing about horror movies is WE know what's going on THE CHARACTER has little to no clue. Sometimes the character might know a little bit like 'oh someone is after me.' but that's about it for everything else they have no idea. I like to think through my characters, even if I'm in third person. Why? because it makes their actions a little more real. If my character needed to jump out of building for some reason I would first ask: is my character afraid of heights? If s/he is, then what in the world is making him or her jump out of the building in the first place? Can the jump be avoided? If not why? Then I think, what's going through my characters mind? Imagine the body language and then put it down on paper. Then I let my mind do the rest usually the character will face his or her fear. Sometimes not which leads to another thread of the possible story. which applies to horror stories and pretty much anything. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 13:20:02 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_589288 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_589288 Piper the Perfect Ouch! Major diss! Wed, 09 Nov 2011 21:34:49 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_595314 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_595314 flopart I use "and" and "but" to start a sentence ONLY when I'm writing 3rd person limited and the character is thinking in fragments, which people often do. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 11:03:55 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_586414 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_586414 MikeAlx I think the adverbs thing is a load of cr@p - the result of a few hard-boiled crime writers telling everyone else how to write. Some writers use loads of them (F. Scott Fitzgerald, J. K. Rowling), some few (Hemingway, Elmore Leonard). Some use them well, some badly. Overuse, and unnecessary use - especially in dialogue attribution - is certainly irritating (he said, knowingly). But adverbs exist for a reason, and to say never use them is nonsense! Wed, 09 Nov 2011 19:50:39 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_594609 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_594609 DeanW93 IN the novel im writing the now, it made sence for me to describe the character through looking at the mirror. My MC suffered from amnesia so when he looks at himself in the mirror he looks around to see the man he once was and what kind of man he was in the past. I agree that the MC isnt going to see himself all the itme therefore the amount of detail in his perspective can be limited but there are times when my MC looks back on a memory to where he is staring directly back at his old self, scrutinizing his movements and his appearance totetermin what kind of person he should be Wed, 09 Nov 2011 18:34:04 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_594103 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_594103 Aerowolf with great speed?! Haha, actually, I get stuck on that a lot too when I write about how fast someone is going or doing something. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 07:52:11 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_582255 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_582255 No-ideas Isn't that where we're supposed to be showing rather than telling? So instead of "quickly", we're supposed to describe what the person is doing, taking it from passive to active? Boy, have I got some editing to do in December... Wed, 09 Nov 2011 08:11:38 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_582750 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_582750 Kimberly Dawn walked quickly. trotted. paced. jogged. darted. strode. The point is to replace your adverbs with stronger verbs. If you can't do it, then it's time to rewrite around that word to give that impression. If that fails, put it aside, wrack your brain, and come back to it. Sometimes an adverb is your best choice in the end. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 08:31:09 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_583236 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_583236 CobaltFox76 I'd say "with alacrity" as a substitute. For some reason I like the sound of the word. xD Wed, 09 Nov 2011 12:39:04 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_588383 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_588383 forlornshadow I actually like what you wrote, it's showing something inside your characters mind. Just stating the characters appearance is boring but you added something to it. It shows your character doesn't like his or her face and feels utterly useless. I think what #1 was talking about was something along the lines of: He looked up in the mirror, dark green eyes and tousled blonde hair were staring back at him. I think your writing above is done very well. There's more information in there than just your characters appearance. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 13:26:52 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_589455 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_589455 moonlightskymist I believe that the "show don't tell" rule applies to the over-use of adverbs. I constantly find my writing littered with adverbs such as slowly, honestly, softly... There are so many other more interesting ways of writing that. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 22:58:36 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_595982 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_595982 E.Davis.Brown At least he grabbed a weapon before going to check, that's more than can be said for most horror movie characters... Wed, 09 Nov 2011 09:32:13 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_584561 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_584561 Spring14Idaho Lucky me! I married a man who's smarter than "most" horror movie characters! :-) ... said laughingly. ***sorry, I just couldn't help, with the whole adverb argument going on!**** Wed, 09 Nov 2011 10:15:07 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_585424 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_585424 Angelynx (Or "Princess Mononoke." I'll bet there are still people out there who think Sen's name is Mononoke, because she's the closest thing to a princess in the movie, when it's actually just an exact translation from Japanese syntax and in colloquial English would be more like "The Mononoke Princess" or even "The Beast Princess"). Wed, 09 Nov 2011 22:57:41 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_595970 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_595970 WeirdGirlParadigms you said it!! *round of applause* Wed, 09 Nov 2011 14:00:18 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_590175 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_590175 MikeAlx December is for sleeping! Wed, 09 Nov 2011 19:51:23 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_594617 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_594617 LaparaLaela I swear that made me laugh out loud right in the middle of my computer class where I'm supposed to be writing an essay. That is so true it's not even funny. Thu, 10 Nov 2011 03:24:32 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_599462 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_599462 hlynn Take a style or rhetoric class. I was amazed to be taught that a lot of things we consider 'rules' are arbitrary guidelines. Keep your noun and your verb close together, avoid noun compounds, and put the subject as close to the beginning of the sentence as possible. When ever I'm having trouble, I remind myself to keep it simple; it often 'sounds' better in your head. Also, don't fear the semi-colon. :D Wed, 09 Nov 2011 12:39:36 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_588394 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_588394 jannin What a fantastic word! Thu, 10 Nov 2011 04:09:21 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_600313 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=2#forum_thread_comment_600313 Anne Michelle I love semicolons. They are so useful. Rather, I love semicolons; they are so useful, provided one doesn't misuse them. Thu, 10 Nov 2011 02:18:33 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_598358 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_598358 Septimus Pfluger This is so much fun to do, starting in media res. Screwing with readers = lots of fun. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 13:22:17 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_589331 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_589331 amaltheaa [quote=forlornshadow] I like how you think. Part of the thing about horror movies is WE know what's going on THE CHARACTER has little to no clue. Sometimes the character might know a little bit like 'oh someone is after me.' but that's about it for everything else they have no idea. [/quote] I actually like to joke about this. I watch a lot of murder mysteries on TV, and when I watch them with my friend we like to make jokes about what would happen if I was one of the actresses on the show. "If you get the script and your name is Victim #2 or something like that, you DON'T FOLLOW THE SCRIPT. When it gets to the part right before your murder, do the opposite of what the script says and then just dance off the set!" We also like to yell at the people on the shows/in the movies. "NO DON'T YOU KNOW WHAT KIND OF SHOW/MOVIE THIS IS EVERYONE DIES NOW YOU'RE GONNA DIE TOO UGH WAY TO GO YOU COULDN'T JUST NOT TALK TO HIM DIDN'T YOU SEE THE BEGINNING THEY SHOWED THAT HE WAS THE KILLER YOU KNOW." Mon, 23 Jan 2012 07:08:15 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_1081792 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_1081792 Inked_Flowers I think that could work because it's a character quirk not a writer quirk and 'the girl in the hate' is teh character's identity here because thats all the reader and the main character know her as. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 14:56:36 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_591255 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_591255 Angelynx When I have a conversation between two people I usually think it's enough to use names the first time they speak, to establish the order of comments, and then just go with it, alternating lines. Shao checked the map. "Which way do we go now?" "I think it's east from here. " Komori glanced from the map to the stars overhead. [[yes, he can see in the dark.]] "East? but I thought it was south of here." "I admit I've never been this way before." And so on. I wouldn;t let it go on too long, but i think it works fine for a stretch. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 22:53:53 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_595938 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_595938 Alacritous-Doom Hmmm... What's an example? In my current project, I generally describe a character once, and leave it at that. If a character is going on a long walk or something, I will go into great detail about the rain and the trees and whatnot because walking itself is boring and only takes up one sentence. All this from the narrator's viewpoint (and by that I don't mean the narrator is a character, just something like "The sky was blue on the tuesday that the bombs fell".) Is that showing or telling? Wed, 09 Nov 2011 20:31:55 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_594906 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_594906 MikeAlx There's a lot of misunderstanding about "show don't tell". It doesn't mean "describe everything in exhaustive detail". It doesn't even mean "never narrate a summary of events" (most writers do this from time to time). What is really means is: don't tell the reader what to think about the characters and events. Show the characters behaving and the events unfolding, and let them draw their own conclusions. You're creating drama, not giving a lecture. Another take on this is the idea of using behavioural details to show emotion. "I could see he was angry" is not as vivid as: "His hands were shaking with barely-contained rage". The latter creates a definite image, whereas the former is abstract. The first tells us how he was feeling, the second shows us. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 20:50:34 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_595029 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_595029 jannin I think you are mostly talking about character descriptions, so here's my take :) Personally, when reading, I find that I remember the first few things about a character, but after that I already have a mental image, so it doesn't matter what the author says later (and, like you, it irritate me; I don't care what colour your hair is if you didn't tell me sooner; you're a ginger in my mind and there's nothing you can do about it). Considering that... When describing a character, I try to "tell" the MOST IMPORTANT things first, so that those things are embedded in the reader's mind. I think a good rule of thumb is that you can fit these facts into one sentence; for example, this year my MC is a one-armed blond boy named Adrien. All of these facts are important: blonds are rare in my story-world, and having one arm is a pretty important fact for readers to remember. After that, I "show" other physical details about him, knowing that the reader may not remember (or care), but also that it doesn't really matter: he has green eyes (mentioned by a friend), his hair is pretty long (he has to wring it out after bathing), he's short (he has to look up at everyone, and WAY up at some people). None of those facts really matter, so it's okay if the reader forgets them, or wants my character to have blue eyes instead. Sometimes, it's annoying to think that people might not read your characters (and other things) the way you imagine them, but that's the fun of writing and reading: there are always two sets of images, the one that the writer intends, and the one that the reader creates. Control the most important aspects, but let your reader do the work after that. :) Thu, 10 Nov 2011 04:30:07 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_600636 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_600636 ZombiesBeforeBedtime I think that's the best one I've seen so far. So many writers forget this. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 20:09:42 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_594741 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_594741 laeoukka I always try to write a book I know as a reader I'd like. Do I always succeed? Not even close! Doesn't stop me from trying though. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 20:19:52 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_594807 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_594807 Yirin It's the describing themselves part that usually bothers people. If you look in the mirror in the morning you don't go "Oh hey, I've got shoulder-length brown hair, I never realised that." It's fine if the story tells how the character looks, but don't have a character describing themselves Unless of course they're on the phone with their beloved and they just asked "What are you wearing?" But I do hope the character's partner actually knows what they look like so they wouldn't describe their hair or eye-colour then. Basically, go with what sounds natural. If your character wouldn't be thinking about it, don't write it. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 21:13:47 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_595175 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_595175 flopart The prodigy one is only annoying because everyone loves that cute, brilliant kid. I'm having fun with my prodigy MC by making him more intellectually than emotionally mature (often the case in real life) and having most of his peers find him annoying and self-righteous. Which he kinda is. Hehe. Thu, 10 Nov 2011 02:09:20 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_598207 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_598207 Kimberly Dawn November is for writing. December is for finishing. January is for feeling guilty over the fact you're about to break another new years resolution. And February is for editing. (Give yourself a month of cushion between finishing.) Thu, 10 Nov 2011 01:12:45 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_597392 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_597392 Kimberly Dawn Listen to grammar girl, she covers several grammar issues. Also what is style v. grammar. She had transcripts too. Google her. Thu, 10 Nov 2011 01:04:38 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_597286 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=1#forum_thread_comment_597286 Kimberly Dawn Systems Managers should know they have someone called a debugger, yes? Stop worrying about perfection, get it up and running, then work out the kinks with a debugger. Yes, get it to the best of your abilities, but a debugger is necessary for a smooth operation. Especially User experience. Writing is like that too, but you need to be willing, unlike programming, to get kicked in the pants repeatedly and actually search for people who will do that to your book, which may feel personal at times. The point from which you wish to revise overall, that's an act of masochism. Serious and utter masochism. The chance to get published is .0001%. You don't have that in programming. So write for fun, on the thought it probably won't see the light of day until you can crap out whatever you like because you have 7 published books, by which time you are probably in your 50's or older. But yeah, everyone writes differently. But don't go all Anne Rice and say you don't need an editor. Thu, 10 Nov 2011 01:19:36 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_597482 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_597482 flopart Awesome and quotable advice. Thu, 10 Nov 2011 02:09:53 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_598218 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=3#forum_thread_comment_598218 flopart "Thought to myself" is as redundant as "exactly the same" etc. Thu, 10 Nov 2011 02:11:41 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=4#forum_thread_comment_598253 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=4#forum_thread_comment_598253 Earthsick I think your 'bad' example would actually work with indirect speech. Jennie saw the exit for the mall and thought to herself that she should go there. (I apologize if there's a mistake there because I never use indirect speech, plus, English is not my native language.) Even though we do use direct speech in our thoughts most of the time, there is something that lies behind it: the thought itself. The human brain is really fascinating. If you want to use that for your writing ... I think it's up to you. Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:58:44 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=4#forum_thread_comment_1087410 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=4#forum_thread_comment_1087410 Yirin I would have to point out that it's not necessarily a bad thing if a character says this. People make mistakes in their language all the time, it can actually add a human dimension to it. But I agree, the narrator should never use the phrase 'thought to myself' or something of the sort. Thu, 10 Nov 2011 02:15:30 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=4#forum_thread_comment_598318 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=4#forum_thread_comment_598318 Piper the Perfect YES! I thought I was the only one. [i] thought to herself [/i] and of the like bugs me so much. You aren't talking to anyone, of course those are your thoughts! Sun, 29 Jan 2012 05:52:46 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=4#forum_thread_comment_1097484 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=4#forum_thread_comment_1097484 Lizardhound Those who know how to write well, do it and know it works. They are good, sensible rules you can break in man ways, which is why they are good, sensible rules. Thu, 10 Nov 2011 04:47:29 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=4#forum_thread_comment_600948 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=4#forum_thread_comment_600948 Antonin Artaud know what works? these rules? if you're a good writer you write your own rules, you don't need to be told. Thu, 10 Nov 2011 08:24:19 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=4#forum_thread_comment_604769 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=4#forum_thread_comment_604769 Piper the Perfect When I have two characters back and forth it's ping pong dialogue. I found a tip that was useful for me, but every style is different. Add action in between dialogue. Have them move, wave their hand around their face like swatting a fly. Quickly turn their eyes away as they spoke to a blade of grass. I love it, but take it with a grain of salt. It's either for you or not. Happy writing! Sun, 29 Jan 2012 05:41:32 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=4#forum_thread_comment_1097469 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=4#forum_thread_comment_1097469 Earthsick Imho you could rephrase it as "advice". I've read stories already that had horrible grammar but were published as books in the end and even had quite the fanbase. The horrible grammar of the books was even advertised as "the unique style of the author" which was kind of like Yoda talking all the time, just without proper grammar rules. (Apart from the grammar the stories were horrible anyway ... just saying.) Tue, 24 Jan 2012 21:01:25 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=4#forum_thread_comment_1087413 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=4#forum_thread_comment_1087413 Piper the Perfect That's a better way to phrase it. It's always when there's a line and they just "thought to herself" at the end that bugs me. If more thinking to themselves sentences were written like above I would be extremely happy. And also why I love reading excerpts on this site, people don't do that here! :D Sun, 29 Jan 2012 05:53:46 +1000 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=4#forum_thread_comment_1097487 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-101/threads/5307?page=4#forum_thread_comment_1097487