Many times, when writing, we come across things like copyrighted song lyrics, influence by a copyrighted work, or how to include a trademark or real person in our novels without ending up with a lawsuit on our doorstep.
Is it okay to have Jennifer Aniston walk across the street from your characters? Can your MC shop at Walmart? What about quoting song lyrics in chapter headings?
So use this thread for your knotty pop culture questions... someone out there can probably answer, or at least subject you to their opinion on the matter. ;)
Okay, sorry if this has been answered like, a million times already, but I am mildly confused about the "within 2 lines" rule for a song. There's a line from a song that I absolutely love, and I want to use it in my story. I want the love interest to say it to her at the end. Now, it's not a long line, and I don't want to have him singing it to her or anything, he's just going to say it naturally. And I want to change it a little bit. I just don't know how many lines it is. I think it's 3, but I don't know how they break it up.
The quote is: "I know I said I didn't watch your plane leave. Honestly, I should admit I lied. I was standing at the edge of the runway, wishing I could fly."
I don't want to word it exactly like that, but it is going to be pretty close. "Remember when I told you that I didn't watch your plane leave? Well, that's not exactly true. I watched as the wheels started to roll, and then I was chasing it to the edge of the runway, wishing to God that I could fly."
Now, that's probably not what I'll use, it might even be more similar to the original than that, but it's got all the same basic elements. I just wanted to give a quick example. Is that plagiarism? I don't really remember how those things work, it's been SO long since I've even had to think about that kind of thing.
BUT, all that being said, I'm not trying to publish my book or anything, it's just for fun. So does it even really matter?
I would say if you're not going to publish it, do whatever you like! Think of how many millions of fanfictions there are that use copyrighted characters to form a whole new story. It's just a bit of fun, and personally, if I had published a book and knew that people were using my characters to form their own fun interpretations of it, I'd be flattered.
Should you ever decide to publish your book, I'd have a back-up phrase in mind.
I would say it's fine as long as you mention her name somewhere in that area. Even if she saw it, why would she get mad for free advertising in a published material?
So I have a character who is autistic, and as a result she has delayed echolalia. This is where she repeats quotes from books and films almost without thinking about it. Would this be ok, or not?
I read a book where an autistic character quoted from other books loads of times. I don't know if the books quoted were in the public domain or not, but I think as long as you don't try to pass off the lines as your own it's fine.
Think about it, how many times have you heard movies use lines like "Say hello to my little friend" or "The Force is strong with this one"?
I have a scene where the protag skips back into her village and finds it demolished.
So I talk about Luke, Uncle Owen, and Aunt Beru. And how she wishes she could be a Jedi. Then she gets back up and decides to go do what she can do in the real world.
It's totally a pop culture geek reference that's really an important statement about her character. OTOH...I don't want to infringe on Lucas' rights in any way shape or form.
Whether this would be kosher/legal or not, I realized that my approach was more than a little stupid. Instead I made up an author who churns out tons of sci fi crap that always hits the bestseller list, no matter how awful it is. Change a couple of minor details here, and attribute it to him instead.
The bonus is that I can have my characters do a frame story thing and read anything random I write that's totally unrelated, attribute it to him, and it helps tie my book together.
Okay, so this is the story: I'm writing a book about physics and manipulating them. At the start of every chapter, I give a (usually short) quote from a real world person, for example:
Chapter 1. [i“Twinkle, twinkle little star I don't wonder what you are, For by spectroscopic ken I know that you are hydrogen”[/i] D Bush , Science & English Poetry, OUP 1950
Now, from my most recent copyright study, this would be unauthorized multiplication and, thus, illegal (I chose the book citation for exactly this reason). However, that would be Dutch Copyright Law, not international... Can anyone help me out, here?
That sounds like what Cornelia Funke did for her Inkheart series, so I'm guessing as long as you ask if it's alright (assuming you want to publish) like she did, it should be fine.
"Twinkle, twinkle little star I don't wonder what you are, For by spectroscopic ken I know that you are hydrogen” D Bush , Science & English Poetry, OUP 1950
I should get back in the habit of hitting that 'preview' button...
Laws vary from country to country, of course, but most have a concept of Fair Use that covers things like what you are doing there - short quotes and the like. Similarly, the right to parody is usually protected under Copyright law.
As always with these things, though, if you're looking to publish, you'll get an editor, who will point out any problems before you go to publication anyway...
Brickie wrote:... a concept of Fair Use that covers things like what you are doing there - short quotes and the like. Similarly, the right to parody is usually protected under Copyright law.
Mostly right.
Even though using something so minimal as that a short quote would likely be considered Fair Use if it came down to a court ruling, publishers are generally opposed to any sort of court action, due to the expense, and will have you get permission to use whatever it is you're quoting if it's still under copyright. (This is why quoting two lines of a song can cost you hundreds of dollars--licensing: everybody gets screwed; even the artists as it's usually the label that sets licensing fees.)
And technically, parody is protected under the Fair Use Doctrine, which is a defense against copyright infringement.
Yes, your MC can see Jennifer Aniston across the street. Yes, your MC can shop at Wal-Mart. Yes, your MC can utterly despise Twilight and say that it was "a piece of crap." Yes, your MC can say, "One ring to rule them all." Yes, your MC can prefer Coke to Pepsi. Yes, your MC can say that you only need three things to make Budweiser--a bottle, a funnel, and a horse. Yes, your MC can opine that Metallica sucks. Yes, your MC can hum whatever the hot song of the week is. Yes, your MC can be reading Harry Potter. No, you cannot quote most modern song lyrics without permission (IIRC, this still includes Happy.Birthday to You.) No, ideas cannot be copyrighted. No, titles cannot be copyrighted, either (though they may be trademarked).
All this, of course, is under US law. Other jurisdictions will have their own rules.
I've noticed that Stephen King always gets his song lyrics slightly wrong. I guess that's for copyright reasons and not because he has misunderstood the lyrics to major hits all these years. :p
If I remember correctly, I remember reading something about how he's always having trouble getting permission from the copyright owners to put song lyrics in his books. I believe he does it (and pays them for it) with every book. I think he's even had to change lyrics when he couldn't get permissions for some of them.
And if he does get these lyrics wrong, perhaps he's just trying to twist them a bit to fit the context of his book.
It's not just in his books if I remember right either. He wanted to use a particular song in the mini-series of "The Stand" at the opening and couldn't get the permission to do it and so had to use another one instead. Or so I remember from the commentary included in the DVD.
I'll add a couple of quick and dirty publishing insider tips about fair use.
1. This varies by publishing house, but a lot of the ones I have worked for/with will edit out brand names, so when in doubt, have your characters use tissues and adhesive bandages instead of Kleenex and Band-Aids and that sort of thing, unless it's really crucial to the plot. (The villains driving the getaway car steal a green Volkswagon Bug, for example, which the hero notices as it pulls away.)
2. Fair use, or what you can quote without obtaining permission, varies by medium and rights holder (and jurisdiction). I believe for song lyrics, it's two lines. For poetry, it's 4 lines or a stanza (I don't remember exactly off-hand). For prose, it's a few paragraphs. Media companies crack down on use without permission (pulling fan videos from YouTube for using pop songs, for example), so use some caution there.
3. During NaNo, it doesn't matter; unless you're publishing your novel and gaining money from something using copyrighted material, the rights holders are not going to come after you. If you do go the traditional publishing route, your publisher will advise you.
4. Anything in the public domain is fair game. In the US, pretty much everything published more than 100 years ago is in the public domain and can be reprinted for free without obtaining permission. So feel free to let your characters quote Shakespeare or Jane Austen.
The US copyright office has an FAQ page for fair use that you might find helpful. I'm available to answer questions, too. (I've worked in publishing for a decade and once upon a time was the assistant responsible for obtaining permission to reprint copyrighted material in textbooks, so I have some tangible experience with the subject.) You can send me a nanomail and I'll be happy to help.
fshk wrote:In the US, pretty much everything published more than 100 years ago is in the public domain...
Careful with that. Anyone quoting older works would do well to remember to check their dates as the current copyright term is the author's lifetime plus 70 years (thanks for that, Disney Corp!).
That's true; at my previous job, we had some trouble getting the rights to some James Joyce stories. It's worth it to verify anything that might be on the border.
That is the current copyright term, but does that apply as a grandfather rule to older works? For example, if something went into the public domain in 1980 after its copyright expired, but then the law changed to make copyright last longer, would it still be in the public domain, or would it return to copyrighted status?
pre-1923, everything is fair game. From then until 1963(?) copyright had to be registered, so some stuff from this period has fallen out of copyright (any DVD sold for $1 is in this category, for example). After that, pretty much everythin is under a "life plus..." rule.
I'm not a lawyer, there may be exceptions, but these are rules of thumb for US copyright law.
faithundefined - Check when it was written. Traditional songs are often rather old, although many of them are deceptively new. If you're thinking of the Hallelujah Chorus, that was part of "Messiah", by Handel, and composed in 1741, and hence not under copyright. If you're refering to something else (it's hard to tell from just the name), then look up that.
I'll looke it up It's not he Hallelujah Chorus. It's the one that starts off like "I heard there was a secret chord that David played and it pleased the Lord". That one.
In my last Nano Wrimo, one of my characters sings that same song, but I don't list all the lyrics, just a few key phrases. It actually came up a lot because it was my MC's favorite song, and he was miffed that it was being over-used in pop culture. (Nope. The irony is not lost on me.)
Okay, so... I'm considering (she's either going to do this or be an artist haha) having my MC, in the end of my novel, go on to star in Wicked. As Elphaba. My question is, will it be legal to *say* she worked in Wicked, or do I just have to hint at it? And perhaps, as I'm considering having the last part be of her singing Defying Gravity, what's fair game there? Is it legal to describe the scene? I know I can't use the actual lyrics, but I'm not quite clear on how far is too far.
You could set up the visuals, the sounds, her body's reaction to nervousness/excitedness - the sight of the crowd, the sounds from the instruments, the sound of her heart beating as she gets ready to sing, the person in the front row who responds to her performance. Watch a handful of videos of singers performing this song to get some ideas.
I'm writing a contemporary fantasy novel and in the second book, they enter a realm composed of people's thoughts, and as such, they could encounter anyone or anything from Samuel Gulliver to a Portal Gun. While it would be really cool to have a nice balance of antique and modern refrences, there's the question of Copyright. I wouldn't want to steal anything from someone else's book, unless it was a personal friend of mine, but what can I use?
MaeYasha wrote: Okay, so... I'm considering (she's either going to do this or be an artist haha) having my MC, in the end of my novel, go on to star in Wicked. As Elphaba. My question is, will it be legal to *say* she worked in Wicked, or do I just have to hint at it?
That would be fine.
Quote: And perhaps, as I'm considering having the last part be of her singing Defying Gravity, what's fair game there? Is it legal to describe the scene? I know I can't use the actual lyrics, but I'm not quite clear on how far is too far.
You can describe the scene, but (as you said) I wouldn't include any actual lyrics, though Fair Use does give you a tiny amount of leeway. Lyrics are something that you should always be very careful with. You could also describe the music, itself, and even call the songs and characters by name.
skynite wrote: I'm writing a contemporary fantasy novel and in the second book, they enter a realm composed of people's thoughts, and as such, they could encounter anyone or anything from Samuel Gulliver to a Portal Gun. While it would be really cool to have a nice balance of antique and modern refrences, there's the question of Copyright. I wouldn't want to steal anything from someone else's book, unless it was a personal friend of mine, but what can I use?
That's a pretty broad question. Do you have anything specific that you're wondering about?
I am thinking about having Charles Manson as an off-page character. He's supposed to be an Avatar of the Devil. Can he sue me for defamation? Funny but serious.
He is a public figure, which gives you greater protection than if you made your neighbor the Avatar of the Devil. The easy way out:: You could go the Dead Guy route and pick Jack the Ripper or someone else of equal gruesomeness.
In my comedy, all the craziness starts when a blogger reminisces bout a football game but instead of tping "the Vikings sacked Dan Marino" he writes "the Vikings sacked San Marino." Now, certainly, as with james Bond, Tom Clancy novels, etc., I can have concerns (or perceived concerns) about San Marino. I'm using a made-up group of historical re-enacters., and pretty quickly downplaying rumors that it was Minnesota Vikings (though making reference to an actual incident in which several Vikings behved very badly on a ship - with pretty much just those words.)
However, 3 questions.
1. Can I have Dan Marino in one short scene basically say that he is not a country, and one person couldn't be a Republic anyway, because that is a democracy where you elect representatives? I can easily have someone explain that, but having this bumbling character ask Marino about this would increase the humor?
2. Can I have Jay Leno on the Tonight Show make a joke after an incident in my book wherein a car is arrested for bank robbery in San Marino? He would make note of it, with some added quips about having to run background checks on his collection, including wheelprints? ("Just think, one of my cars might be a notorious felon.") Again, a character could just say he coujld imagine that on the "Tonight Show" or someone with a classic car collection could say that. (I also wonder if it should be ust Mr. Leno, as a public figure, saying that but not on the Tonight Show.)
3. The car is arrested because of confusion with names - an Alexis in America has an alibi, but she owns a Lexus. Since one was seen as the getaway car, and Alexis bought this car in San Marino (but the one in CAlifornia), and the investigator's boss is too stubborn to listen, the investigator is ordered to arrest a Lexus and get it extradicted. I presume it's okay to have the Lexus named? I can just call it a car after that, but there will be a handful of times when various people will have explain the confusion between Alexis and a Lexus.)
Of coruse, #3 and probably the others would likely be seen as okay just because it's parody, anyway, without needing to get permission. (I'd like to self-publish on lulu.com as I have my others.)
Whatever the official answer is, "The Vikings sacked San Marino" is great! I can imagine this alternate history where Scandinavians overtake the Italian Peninsula. :-D
So long as you're not saying anything potentially libelous, real people are generally fair game, particularly famous people.
Likewise, I'd expect mentioning a Lexus is fair game as well, so long as you're not wrongfully implying that they have a tendancy to blow up or something.
Anyway, whenever this thread comes up, I feel the need to point out Jennifer Government. Look it up sometime. I haven't read it, but it apparently involves Nike hiring hitmen and whatnot... to quote the author:
People often ask how I get away with using real company names in my fiction. I'm not completely sure; all I know is I keep using real company names and they keep not suing me. But I can think of two possible explanations. One is that my novels are protected free speech, since they're clearly parodies and don't allege actual misdeeds. That is, when I use a real company name, it's just like using a real place name -- and the City of Los Angeles has yet to sue James Elroy. The other explanation is that I always use highly visible, brand-name companies, and suing a comedy writer would be terrible PR.
Dr. Evil had shares in Starbucks, and the company seemed to deal with being part of an evil empire. I'm guessing the powers that be went along. They learned the lesson that M&Ms did when they said, "No dice" to E.T. eating that candy, so he nibbled then-new Reese's Pieces. Reese's Pieces went from totally unknown to a hot candy, just because of product placement.
In Ghostbusters, the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man was originally supposed to have been the Pillsbury Doughboy. That would have been hilarious. But Pillsbury thought it would tarnish their brand. I think if it had been made today, they would have been fine with it, companies have been more willing to be part of the joke, figuring the audience knows the difference.
It would be cool if they could digitally replace the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man with the Pillsbury Doughboy. It wouldn't be difficult to replace the creature, and the dubbing would be easy.
I'm writing an Historical novel this year, taking place in Paris France during the end of the Great Terror. About the same time period of Baroness Orcsy's Scarlet Pimpernel series. If the Scarlet Pimpernel and other characters from her novel make brief appearances in my story am I breaking copyright.
The Scarlet Pimpernel was written in 1905 Baroness Orcsy died in the 1940s
I'm writing a sci-fi novel and was thinking of including tech inspired in universe by Star Trek. Would it be OK to use the names from Star Trek, such as "Transporter" and "Phasers"
I think you can (though I'm no lawyer), and "transporter" is a fairly generic term (it transports, therefore it's a transporter). Phaser has been used for other things besides Star Trek, so I suspect it wouldn't be a major problem.
For phaser, depending on how you want it to work physically, you could maybe substitute something. Energy beam? Maser or laser, perhaps?
I have a question: I, being slightly obsessed with the movie "Labyrinth", named a supernatural character in my novel Jareth. However, my friend said that it would be copyright infringement. I recall that names can't be copyrighted. Can I use the name???
I don't know... I remember when the LOTR movies came out, and the McDonalds toys were all labeled with a trademark. eg: "Sam (tm)" (Not even "Samwise Gamgee" btw... just "Sam")
Ebooks are published, posting to your website is published, provided in any way that the general public can read it is published, which is why I won't post short works on my website until I've tried various magazines (my favorite ones happen to accept "first rights only," meaning they won't buy something that's already been published). I have Writer's Market to thank for telling me that one.
Now, the interesting part I'd read (and I can't for the life of me remember where; I thought it was bookmarked, but can't find it....) is that posted to your website but password protected so that only a select audience can read it is not "published."
This is how I understand it with my limited legal knowledge.
Avoid anything trademarked like the plague. A company must actively defend its trademarks or lose them.
There is no limit to the length of time a company can hold a trademark, providing they continue to register it and they are still actively defending it.
Something can fall out of trademark and then be trademarked again at a later date (by the same or other parties), providing it is not deemed too generic. "Raisin Bran" is considered too generic, as is "Jazz", and they must be trademarked as "Kellog's Raising Bran" and "Autobot Jazz".
This is why something like the current name and likeness of Mickey Mouse is trademarked instead of copyrighted. Also why the original likeness of Mickey Mouse in Steam Boat Mickey is actually now public domain (once again, from what I've heard and understood) because it was created more than 70 years ago.
A copyright runs out (if I remember correctly) in the US after 70 years from registration. After that it becomes public domain. Disney fought to have it extended to 75 years, and was turned down, as they already extended all copyright for everyone in the US from 50 years to 70 in the US. The judge deemed that the intention of it running out was to have stuff enter public domain, and continually extending was counter to this intention.
In Canada copyrights lasts 50 years AFTER the death of the content's original creator. So technically, Steam Boat Mickey may still be copyrighted to Disney in Canada, but in the US it would be considered public domain. Weird how that works.
Also, this means that if the content's creator dies the same day the content was created and registered, then it'll be public domain 20 years sooner in Canada compared to USA.
Not 100% sure exactly how the USA and Canadian copyrights work with and against each other as I never looked for the details.
Anyways, Copyright has the whole Fair Use thing, but Trademark doesn't. And the holders are told they have to defend their trademarks, so they'll be actively looking for their unauthorized use.
Hopefully the way I used the trademarks in this post is deemed understandable and not an infringement.
Jedi_Shepp, that's not how trademarks work at all, sorry.
Trademark infringement is completely different from copyright infringement. Having fictional characters drinking a Coke isn't infringement -- producing a soft drink with a suspiciously similar name and logo so as to cause confusion is.
Trademarks are to protect companies against people who would produce a competing product that could be confused with them.
Trademarks are names and logos -- these are things which do not fall under copyright law at all. You can't "copyright" a name. It doesn't work that way.
And the thing about "defending" a trademark is to protect it from becoming genericized -- that is, they don't want people using their trade name as a generic noun identifying an entire class of products rather than just their product. e.g., people saying "I googled it." rather than "I looked it up on Google.", or "I xeroxed the paper." rather than "I used a Xerox machine to make a copy of the paper."
Actually the product isn't the trademark. That's intellectual property. Which is a totally different ball game. The trademark would be the Disney Mickey ears.
And a product becoming the generic name for something has nothing to do with trademark infringement. And no company would sue someone for trademark infringement for saying "I grabbed a Coke" So someone saying "I goggled it" would not be a trademark violation. People say band-aids all the time when Band Aid is actually a brand name and you could have the WalMArt generic no name brand, but you call it a Band Aid. Now if you took the stylized name and color combo of the google logo and put another company name to it then you would be infringing on the Google trademark, but saying "I goggled Peter Pan" has nothing to do with trademark infringement.
A product becoming generic has *everything* to do with trademark law. There is such a thing called "genericide" in trademark law, and companies like Kleenex, Band-Aid, and Xerox (or the companies that own those trademarks) are in danger of losing their trademarks because the words are becoming so common as to be generic. It's technically "Kleenex-brand facial tissue," for example, written on the package.
Lots of words we use today used to be brand names. I think "Zipper" is one--used to be a brand, now it's just a generic word, and the company lost the right to prevent others from using the word "zipper" on their products because the term had become genericized.
Marketing people love it when their brand names become verbs, like "google." But Google's lawyer absolutely hate that because maybe in fifty years or so Google's trademark won't be worth very much. See: xerox. There's isn't any actual infringement when people say terms like that in conversation or even print it in a book, and no one's going to try to sue over it, but companies are concerned about protecting their trademarks and many of them emphasize the fact that their name is a brand, not a synonym for the product.
I think you're thinking of the concept of name-dropping brand names into literature, which I'm more fuzzy on. I think it's allowed. You can write about your characters going to Wal-Mart and buying a Dora the Explorer DVD as a gag gift for a college student who's flunking Spanish; that's not going to be trademark infringement because it's in a book and no one consumer is going to confuse you for Walmart Corp. or whoever owns the trademark for Dora the Explorer.
Caveat, this is just what a law professor told me, and we were in Internet Law class and just covering the very basics of trademark and copyright. So there are probably lots of nuances I missed.
Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
Many times, when writing, we come across things like copyrighted song lyrics, influence by a copyrighted work, or how to include a trademark or real person in our novels without ending up with a lawsuit on our doorstep.
Is it okay to have Jennifer Aniston walk across the street from your characters? Can your MC shop at Walmart? What about quoting song lyrics in chapter headings?
So use this thread for your knotty pop culture questions... someone out there can probably answer, or at least subject you to their opinion on the matter. ;)
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
Okay, sorry if this has been answered like, a million times already, but I am mildly confused about the "within 2 lines" rule for a song. There's a line from a song that I absolutely love, and I want to use it in my story. I want the love interest to say it to her at the end. Now, it's not a long line, and I don't want to have him singing it to her or anything, he's just going to say it naturally. And I want to change it a little bit. I just don't know how many lines it is. I think it's 3, but I don't know how they break it up.
The quote is:
"I know I said I didn't watch your plane leave. Honestly, I should admit I lied. I was standing at the edge of the runway, wishing I could fly."
I don't want to word it exactly like that, but it is going to be pretty close.
"Remember when I told you that I didn't watch your plane leave? Well, that's not exactly true. I watched as the wheels started to roll, and then I was chasing it to the edge of the runway, wishing to God that I could fly."
Now, that's probably not what I'll use, it might even be more similar to the original than that, but it's got all the same basic elements. I just wanted to give a quick example. Is that plagiarism? I don't really remember how those things work, it's been SO long since I've even had to think about that kind of thing.
BUT, all that being said, I'm not trying to publish my book or anything, it's just for fun. So does it even really matter?
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
I would say if you're not going to publish it, do whatever you like! Think of how many millions of fanfictions there are that use copyrighted characters to form a whole new story. It's just a bit of fun, and personally, if I had published a book and knew that people were using my characters to form their own fun interpretations of it, I'd be flattered.
Should you ever decide to publish your book, I'd have a back-up phrase in mind.
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
I would say it's fine as long as you mention her name somewhere in that area. Even if she saw it, why would she get mad for free advertising in a published material?
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
So I have a character who is autistic, and as a result she has delayed echolalia. This is where she repeats quotes from books and films almost without thinking about it. Would this be ok, or not?
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
I read a book where an autistic character quoted from other books loads of times. I don't know if the books quoted were in the public domain or not, but I think as long as you don't try to pass off the lines as your own it's fine.
Think about it, how many times have you heard movies use lines like "Say hello to my little friend" or "The Force is strong with this one"?
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
I have a scene where the protag skips back into her village and finds it demolished.
So I talk about Luke, Uncle Owen, and Aunt Beru. And how she wishes she could be a Jedi. Then she gets back up and decides to go do what she can do in the real world.
It's totally a pop culture geek reference that's really an important statement about her character. OTOH...I don't want to infringe on Lucas' rights in any way shape or form.
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
Whether this would be kosher/legal or not, I realized that my approach was more than a little stupid. Instead I made up an author who churns out tons of sci fi crap that always hits the bestseller list, no matter how awful it is. Change a couple of minor details here, and attribute it to him instead.
The bonus is that I can have my characters do a frame story thing and read anything random I write that's totally unrelated, attribute it to him, and it helps tie my book together.
This is awesome!
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
Okay, so this is the story:
I'm writing a book about physics and manipulating them. At the start of every chapter, I give a (usually short) quote from a real world person, for example:
Chapter 1.
[i“Twinkle, twinkle little star
I don't wonder what you are,
For by spectroscopic ken
I know that you are hydrogen”[/i]
D Bush , Science & English Poetry, OUP 1950
Now, from my most recent copyright study, this would be unauthorized multiplication and, thus, illegal (I chose the book citation for exactly this reason). However, that would be Dutch Copyright Law, not international... Can anyone help me out, here?
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
That sounds like what Cornelia Funke did for her Inkheart series, so I'm guessing as long as you ask if it's alright (assuming you want to publish) like she did, it should be fine.
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
AND that should've been
"Twinkle, twinkle little star
I don't wonder what you are,
For by spectroscopic ken
I know that you are hydrogen”
D Bush , Science & English Poetry, OUP 1950
I should get back in the habit of hitting that 'preview' button...
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
Laws vary from country to country, of course, but most have a concept of Fair Use that covers things like what you are doing there - short quotes and the like. Similarly, the right to parody is usually protected under Copyright law.
As always with these things, though, if you're looking to publish, you'll get an editor, who will point out any problems before you go to publication anyway...
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
Mostly right.
Even though using something so minimal as that a short quote would likely be considered Fair Use if it came down to a court ruling, publishers are generally opposed to any sort of court action, due to the expense, and will have you get permission to use whatever it is you're quoting if it's still under copyright. (This is why quoting two lines of a song can cost you hundreds of dollars--licensing: everybody gets screwed; even the artists as it's usually the label that sets licensing fees.)
And technically, parody is protected under the Fair Use Doctrine, which is a defense against copyright infringement.
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
Just to try to get a head start this year....
Yes, your MC can see Jennifer Aniston across the street.
Yes, your MC can shop at Wal-Mart.
Yes, your MC can utterly despise Twilight and say that it was "a piece of crap."
Yes, your MC can say, "One ring to rule them all."
Yes, your MC can prefer Coke to Pepsi.
Yes, your MC can say that you only need three things to make Budweiser--a bottle, a funnel, and a horse.
Yes, your MC can opine that Metallica sucks.
Yes, your MC can hum whatever the hot song of the week is.
Yes, your MC can be reading Harry Potter.
No, you cannot quote most modern song lyrics without permission (IIRC, this still includes Happy.Birthday to You.)
No, ideas cannot be copyrighted.
No, titles cannot be copyrighted, either (though they may be trademarked).
All this, of course, is under US law. Other jurisdictions will have their own rules.
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
I've noticed that Stephen King always gets his song lyrics slightly wrong. I guess that's for copyright reasons and not because he has misunderstood the lyrics to major hits all these years. :p
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
If I remember correctly, I remember reading something about how he's always having trouble getting permission from the copyright owners to put song lyrics in his books. I believe he does it (and pays them for it) with every book. I think he's even had to change lyrics when he couldn't get permissions for some of them.
And if he does get these lyrics wrong, perhaps he's just trying to twist them a bit to fit the context of his book.
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
It's not just in his books if I remember right either. He wanted to use a particular song in the mini-series of "The Stand" at the opening and couldn't get the permission to do it and so had to use another one instead. Or so I remember from the commentary included in the DVD.
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
I'll add a couple of quick and dirty publishing insider tips about fair use.
1. This varies by publishing house, but a lot of the ones I have worked for/with will edit out brand names, so when in doubt, have your characters use tissues and adhesive bandages instead of Kleenex and Band-Aids and that sort of thing, unless it's really crucial to the plot. (The villains driving the getaway car steal a green Volkswagon Bug, for example, which the hero notices as it pulls away.)
2. Fair use, or what you can quote without obtaining permission, varies by medium and rights holder (and jurisdiction). I believe for song lyrics, it's two lines. For poetry, it's 4 lines or a stanza (I don't remember exactly off-hand). For prose, it's a few paragraphs. Media companies crack down on use without permission (pulling fan videos from YouTube for using pop songs, for example), so use some caution there.
3. During NaNo, it doesn't matter; unless you're publishing your novel and gaining money from something using copyrighted material, the rights holders are not going to come after you. If you do go the traditional publishing route, your publisher will advise you.
4. Anything in the public domain is fair game. In the US, pretty much everything published more than 100 years ago is in the public domain and can be reprinted for free without obtaining permission. So feel free to let your characters quote Shakespeare or Jane Austen.
The US copyright office has an FAQ page for fair use that you might find helpful. I'm available to answer questions, too. (I've worked in publishing for a decade and once upon a time was the assistant responsible for obtaining permission to reprint copyrighted material in textbooks, so I have some tangible experience with the subject.) You can send me a nanomail and I'll be happy to help.
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
Careful with that. Anyone quoting older works would do well to remember to check their dates as the current copyright term is the author's lifetime plus 70 years (thanks for that, Disney Corp!).
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
That's true; at my previous job, we had some trouble getting the rights to some James Joyce stories. It's worth it to verify anything that might be on the border.
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
That is the current copyright term, but does that apply as a grandfather rule to older works? For example, if something went into the public domain in 1980 after its copyright expired, but then the law changed to make copyright last longer, would it still be in the public domain, or would it return to copyrighted status?
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
pre-1923, everything is fair game. From then until 1963(?) copyright had to be registered, so some stuff from this period has fallen out of copyright (any DVD sold for $1 is in this category, for example). After that, pretty much everythin is under a "life plus..." rule.
I'm not a lawyer, there may be exceptions, but these are rules of thumb for US copyright law.
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
Okay, so my story opens up with my main female singing "Hallelujah." So if I only quote two lines of the song I am okay?
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
faithundefined - Check when it was written. Traditional songs are often rather old, although many of them are deceptively new. If you're thinking of the Hallelujah Chorus, that was part of "Messiah", by Handel, and composed in 1741, and hence not under copyright. If you're refering to something else (it's hard to tell from just the name), then look up that.
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
I'll looke it up It's not he Hallelujah Chorus. It's the one that starts off like "I heard there was a secret chord that David played and it pleased the Lord". That one.
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
that's from the Leonard Cohen song
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
In my last Nano Wrimo, one of my characters sings that same song, but I don't list all the lyrics, just a few key phrases. It actually came up a lot because it was my MC's favorite song, and he was miffed that it was being over-used in pop culture. (Nope. The irony is not lost on me.)
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
I think Leonard Cohen wouldn't mind. :P
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
"I didnt think he would mind" is not going to stand up in court when you are sued.
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
Okay, so... I'm considering (she's either going to do this or be an artist haha) having my MC, in the end of my novel, go on to star in Wicked. As Elphaba. My question is, will it be legal to *say* she worked in Wicked, or do I just have to hint at it? And perhaps, as I'm considering having the last part be of her singing Defying Gravity, what's fair game there? Is it legal to describe the scene? I know I can't use the actual lyrics, but I'm not quite clear on how far is too far.
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
You could set up the visuals, the sounds, her body's reaction to nervousness/excitedness - the sight of the crowd, the sounds from the instruments, the sound of her heart beating as she gets ready to sing, the person in the front row who responds to her performance. Watch a handful of videos of singers performing this song to get some ideas.
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
I'm writing a contemporary fantasy novel and in the second book, they enter a realm composed of people's thoughts, and as such, they could encounter anyone or anything from Samuel Gulliver to a Portal Gun. While it would be really cool to have a nice balance of antique and modern refrences, there's the question of Copyright. I wouldn't want to steal anything from someone else's book, unless it was a personal friend of mine, but what can I use?
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
Portal Gun <3
Just had to throw that out there...
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
Yeah, I noticed to. Had to take a half hour break from writing over Thanksgiving weekend to buy my son Portal2 while it was on sale. :D
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
*too*!!!!
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
That would be fine.
You can describe the scene, but (as you said) I wouldn't include any actual lyrics, though Fair Use does give you a tiny amount of leeway. Lyrics are something that you should always be very careful with. You could also describe the music, itself, and even call the songs and characters by name.
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
That's a pretty broad question. Do you have anything specific that you're wondering about?
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
I am thinking about having Charles Manson as an off-page character. He's supposed to be an Avatar of the Devil. Can he sue me for defamation? Funny but serious.
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
He is a public figure, which gives you greater protection than if you made your neighbor the Avatar of the Devil. The easy way out:: You could go the Dead Guy route and pick Jack the Ripper or someone else of equal gruesomeness.
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
FUnny, I have a drug dealer who, unfortunately, shares that same name. It makes for some entertaining diologue.
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
In my comedy, all the craziness starts when a blogger reminisces bout a football game but instead of tping "the Vikings sacked Dan Marino" he writes "the Vikings sacked San Marino." Now, certainly, as with james Bond, Tom Clancy novels, etc., I can have concerns (or perceived concerns) about San Marino. I'm using a made-up group of historical re-enacters., and pretty quickly downplaying rumors that it was Minnesota Vikings (though making reference to an actual incident in which several Vikings behved very badly on a ship - with pretty much just those words.)
However, 3 questions.
1. Can I have Dan Marino in one short scene basically say that he is not a country, and one person couldn't be a Republic anyway, because that is a democracy where you elect representatives? I can easily have someone explain that, but having this bumbling character ask Marino about this would increase the humor?
2. Can I have Jay Leno on the Tonight Show make a joke after an incident in my book wherein a car is arrested for bank robbery in San Marino? He would make note of it, with some added quips about having to run background checks on his collection, including wheelprints? ("Just think, one of my cars might be a notorious felon.") Again, a character could just say he coujld imagine that on the "Tonight Show" or someone with a classic car collection could say that. (I also wonder if it should be ust Mr. Leno, as a public figure, saying that but not on the Tonight Show.)
3. The car is arrested because of confusion with names - an Alexis in America has an alibi, but she owns a Lexus. Since one was seen as the getaway car, and Alexis bought this car in San Marino (but the one in CAlifornia), and the investigator's boss is too stubborn to listen, the investigator is ordered to arrest a Lexus and get it extradicted. I presume it's okay to have the Lexus named? I can just call it a car after that, but there will be a handful of times when various people will have explain the confusion between Alexis and a Lexus.)
Of coruse, #3 and probably the others would likely be seen as okay just because it's parody, anyway, without needing to get permission. (I'd like to self-publish on lulu.com as I have my others.)
THanks.
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
Whatever the official answer is, "The Vikings sacked San Marino" is great! I can imagine this alternate history where Scandinavians overtake the Italian Peninsula. :-D
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
So long as you're not saying anything potentially libelous, real people are generally fair game, particularly famous people.
Likewise, I'd expect mentioning a Lexus is fair game as well, so long as you're not wrongfully implying that they have a tendancy to blow up or something.
Anyway, whenever this thread comes up, I feel the need to point out Jennifer Government. Look it up sometime. I haven't read it, but it apparently involves Nike hiring hitmen and whatnot... to quote the author:
People often ask how I get away with using real company names in my fiction. I'm not completely sure; all I know is I keep using real company names and they keep not suing me. But I can think of two possible explanations. One is that my novels are protected free speech, since they're clearly parodies and don't allege actual misdeeds. That is, when I use a real company name, it's just like using a real place name -- and the City of Los Angeles has yet to sue James Elroy. The other explanation is that I always use highly visible, brand-name companies, and suing a comedy writer would be terrible PR.
Webinar on Fair Use
A free webinar on the "Fair Use" doctrine of US copyright may be of interest to some writers. Nov. 15, at 1pm Eastern Time.
http://www.cvent.com/events/understanding-fair-use/event-summary-48ed385796e54cf3a6990e5bddec6953.aspx
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
Dr. Evil had shares in Starbucks, and the company seemed to deal with being part of an evil empire. I'm guessing the powers that be went along. They learned the lesson that M&Ms did when they said, "No dice" to E.T. eating that candy, so he nibbled then-new Reese's Pieces. Reese's Pieces went from totally unknown to a hot candy, just because of product placement.
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
In Ghostbusters, the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man was originally supposed to have been the Pillsbury Doughboy. That would have been hilarious. But Pillsbury thought it would tarnish their brand. I think if it had been made today, they would have been fine with it, companies have been more willing to be part of the joke, figuring the audience knows the difference.
It would be cool if they could digitally replace the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man with the Pillsbury Doughboy. It wouldn't be difficult to replace the creature, and the dubbing would be easy.
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
I'm writing an Historical novel this year, taking place in Paris France during the end of the Great Terror. About the same time period of Baroness Orcsy's Scarlet Pimpernel series. If the Scarlet Pimpernel and other characters from her novel make brief appearances in my story am I breaking copyright.
The Scarlet Pimpernel was written in 1905
Baroness Orcsy died in the 1940s
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
The Scarlet Pimpernel is currently available on Project Gutenberg: http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/60, so it's presumably in the public domain.
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
Gutenberg is careful about researching rights, so if it's on there you're safe (under US law, at least)
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
I'm writing a sci-fi novel and was thinking of including tech inspired in universe by Star Trek. Would it be OK to use the names from Star Trek, such as "Transporter" and "Phasers"
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
I think you can (though I'm no lawyer), and "transporter" is a fairly generic term (it transports, therefore it's a transporter). Phaser has been used for other things besides Star Trek, so I suspect it wouldn't be a major problem.
For phaser, depending on how you want it to work physically, you could maybe substitute something. Energy beam? Maser or laser, perhaps?
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
So are we saying that Weird AL didn't really need the blessings of the artist's songs he would/does parody that it's just covering his bases?
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
He can legally parody whatever song he chooses, but he won't without the artist's blessing.
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
Yes! I've heard him say as much! Parody is protected.
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
I have a question:
I, being slightly obsessed with the movie "Labyrinth", named a supernatural character in my novel Jareth. However, my friend said that it would be copyright infringement. I recall that names can't be copyrighted. Can I use the name???
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
... My first thought with the name "Jareth" was not that, but this. ;p
It would be a really sad world if we could only ever use any name once. We'd wind up having to name our characters "Kz'blyk'truigwrl" before too long.
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
Thanks! That's what I thought, but I'm glad I don't have to worry about it!
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
I believe someone in my area printed a special version of that card with David Bowie's picture but was not allowed to use it.
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
I don't know... I remember when the LOTR movies came out, and the McDonalds toys were all labeled with a trademark.
eg: "Sam (tm)" (Not even "Samwise Gamgee" btw... just "Sam")
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
Does an ebook count as being published or just self publishing a paperback book?
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
Ebooks are published, posting to your website is published, provided in any way that the general public can read it is published, which is why I won't post short works on my website until I've tried various magazines (my favorite ones happen to accept "first rights only," meaning they won't buy something that's already been published).
I have Writer's Market to thank for telling me that one.
Now, the interesting part I'd read (and I can't for the life of me remember where; I thought it was bookmarked, but can't find it....) is that posted to your website but password protected so that only a select audience can read it is not "published."
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
This is how I understand it with my limited legal knowledge.
Avoid anything trademarked like the plague. A company must actively defend its trademarks or lose them.
There is no limit to the length of time a company can hold a trademark, providing they continue to register it and they are still actively defending it.
Something can fall out of trademark and then be trademarked again at a later date (by the same or other parties), providing it is not deemed too generic. "Raisin Bran" is considered too generic, as is "Jazz", and they must be trademarked as "Kellog's Raising Bran" and "Autobot Jazz".
This is why something like the current name and likeness of Mickey Mouse is trademarked instead of copyrighted. Also why the original likeness of Mickey Mouse in Steam Boat Mickey is actually now public domain (once again, from what I've heard and understood) because it was created more than 70 years ago.
A copyright runs out (if I remember correctly) in the US after 70 years from registration. After that it becomes public domain. Disney fought to have it extended to 75 years, and was turned down, as they already extended all copyright for everyone in the US from 50 years to 70 in the US. The judge deemed that the intention of it running out was to have stuff enter public domain, and continually extending was counter to this intention.
In Canada copyrights lasts 50 years AFTER the death of the content's original creator. So technically, Steam Boat Mickey may still be copyrighted to Disney in Canada, but in the US it would be considered public domain. Weird how that works.
Also, this means that if the content's creator dies the same day the content was created and registered, then it'll be public domain 20 years sooner in Canada compared to USA.
Not 100% sure exactly how the USA and Canadian copyrights work with and against each other as I never looked for the details.
Anyways, Copyright has the whole Fair Use thing, but Trademark doesn't. And the holders are told they have to defend their trademarks, so they'll be actively looking for their unauthorized use.
Hopefully the way I used the trademarks in this post is deemed understandable and not an infringement.
But anyways, that's how I understood it all.
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
Jedi_Shepp, that's not how trademarks work at all, sorry.
Trademark infringement is completely different from copyright infringement. Having fictional characters drinking a Coke isn't infringement -- producing a soft drink with a suspiciously similar name and logo so as to cause confusion is.
Trademarks are to protect companies against people who would produce a competing product that could be confused with them.
Trademarks are names and logos -- these are things which do not fall under copyright law at all. You can't "copyright" a name. It doesn't work that way.
And the thing about "defending" a trademark is to protect it from becoming genericized -- that is, they don't want people using their trade name as a generic noun identifying an entire class of products rather than just their product. e.g., people saying "I googled it." rather than "I looked it up on Google.", or "I xeroxed the paper." rather than "I used a Xerox machine to make a copy of the paper."
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
Ah, that's how it works. I admit my confusion about Trademarks. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
Actually the product isn't the trademark. That's intellectual property. Which is a totally different ball game. The trademark would be the Disney Mickey ears.
And a product becoming the generic name for something has nothing to do with trademark infringement. And no company would sue someone for trademark infringement for saying "I grabbed a Coke" So someone saying "I goggled it" would not be a trademark violation. People say band-aids all the time when Band Aid is actually a brand name and you could have the WalMArt generic no name brand, but you call it a Band Aid. Now if you took the stylized name and color combo of the google logo and put another company name to it then you would be infringing on the Google trademark, but saying "I goggled Peter Pan" has nothing to do with trademark infringement.
Re: Trademarks, Copyrights, and Pop Culture References in your Novel
Actually, fun factoid!
A product becoming generic has *everything* to do with trademark law. There is such a thing called "genericide" in trademark law, and companies like Kleenex, Band-Aid, and Xerox (or the companies that own those trademarks) are in danger of losing their trademarks because the words are becoming so common as to be generic. It's technically "Kleenex-brand facial tissue," for example, written on the package.
Lots of words we use today used to be brand names. I think "Zipper" is one--used to be a brand, now it's just a generic word, and the company lost the right to prevent others from using the word "zipper" on their products because the term had become genericized.
Marketing people love it when their brand names become verbs, like "google." But Google's lawyer absolutely hate that because maybe in fifty years or so Google's trademark won't be worth very much. See: xerox. There's isn't any actual infringement when people say terms like that in conversation or even print it in a book, and no one's going to try to sue over it, but companies are concerned about protecting their trademarks and many of them emphasize the fact that their name is a brand, not a synonym for the product.
I think you're thinking of the concept of name-dropping brand names into literature, which I'm more fuzzy on. I think it's allowed. You can write about your characters going to Wal-Mart and buying a Dora the Explorer DVD as a gag gift for a college student who's flunking Spanish; that's not going to be trademark infringement because it's in a book and no one consumer is going to confuse you for Walmart Corp. or whoever owns the trademark for Dora the Explorer.
Caveat, this is just what a law professor told me, and we were in Internet Law class and just covering the very basics of trademark and copyright. So there are probably lots of nuances I missed.