If we have one, we may as well have the other. Hi! :)
Moderator Note: Please note that this is not a debate thread. This is a writing group for Pro-Choice writers. If you should see any attempts to stir a debate in this thread, please report them to the moderators.
I pointedly avoid the pro-life thread. It's just a place to say hello and chat with like-minded people. No need to harass us in our chat group. Save that for the Research Forum. :p
Preeeecisely. I'm not going into their thread to tell them what I think of them, and I expect the same respect in return--no matter how difficult it may seem.
I've also reported Jackalope. We're supposed to be respectful to everyone on the forums, and that includes playing nice with people who have differing opinions. It's a controversial issue and we should keep out of each other's threads-- this isn't a place for debate.
Just to be clear, the content itself was not necessarily against our Terms and conditions; it was absolutely inflammatory. However, it is inappropriate for this thread, as this is a gathering place for Pro-choice writers. There is a time and place for debate, and this thread is not it.
Hey, I'm on the fence but I would never make such inflammatory remarks. Although I'm not necessarily "one of you" I have also reported him. The Pro-Choice writers deserve to have a safe haven in this thread.
Also, I see you're a fan of James Joyce. A rare breed, indeed. I'm fairly certain I'm the only of my friends who ever finished any of the man's books, let alone liked them.
Glad to meet another Joyce fan! Can't say I ever actually made it through Finnegans Wake, but Ulysses is one of my all-time favorites. My wife pines for the days of old-school Modernism. Have you read any of Dorothy Richardson's amazing Pilgrimage series?
Yay! Other Joyce fans! Dubliners is my favorite. I've been trying to get my hands on an affordable (by which I mean used) copy of Ulysses for a few years now. Apparently nobody in my area actually gets rid of their copies. I'm moving, so hopefully I can get my hands on it in my new area.
(Yes, it does need to be a physical book. My bad eyesight complains less when reading long things on paper than on a screen, even with a program that adjusts the color at night.)
I agree re: the pro-life thread. We may disagree but I respect their right for an opinion, and their right to voice it, and their right to gather and chat about any number of things relevant and no. So I shall avoid their thread and leave them to it. It would be very impolite to take any other action.
The NaNo forums are always so pleasant, with such good feeling. This is genuinely the first time I think I've ever seen someone attempt to stir s#!t.
Yeah, this year is my seventh NaNo, and in all my time spent on here since 2005 this is the very first time I've ever even had the urge to report someone, much less felt the responsibility to follow through. Which I did, and thus the report pile on that post grows ever higher...
Regardless, I do find it fairly simple to avoid clicking on the threads that I know are just going to end up irking me (pro-lifers, etc.) as well as the ones that aren't relevant to my interests or life (Disney, left-handedness, etc.) and stick to the 'good' stuff.
I just don't understand why anyone felt the need to make a pro-"life" group in the first place, as it has so little to do with writing. We wouldn't need this thread in the first place if someone hadn't felt the other viewpoint was worth airing on NaNo.
True. It surprised me a little when I first saw it, to be honest. (And obviously bothered me, but I'm not going there to post about why they shouldn't have the thread >_> Although I did start arguing with this guy in my class...)
I am pro-life, and I'm not here to say anything against anyone as a person. We disagree, that's that and I'm not here to cause trouble, but what's so wrong with making a group for Pro-life? Maybe peoples' writing has to do with pro-life, in which case it would be a perfectly acceptable to make a group.
My issue with it is that it is such a charged issue, and one that might best be taken elsewhere. NaNo is usually such an inclusive, welcoming place, and to have camps as divisive as pro-life vs. pro-choice doesn't really feel right for this site. And I know it seems hypocritical for me to be saying this as I'm posting in a thread for one of these camps, but if we have just one side, then members of the other are likely to feel uncomfortable. I know my first reaction when I saw the pro-life thread (before noticing the pro-choice one) was along the lines of 'Is that really the kind of people that are participating this year?' I was relieved to see that that was not the case.
But I'd rather neither board existed, honestly, so I (and others) wouldn't have had to feel that way in the first place.
Quote:No, but seriously, it annoys me that this is even a question in 2011.
I agree.
I wonder if the love the right-wing professes for the Founding Fathers is just nostalgia for an era when men didn't have to worry about women's rights. Among other things.
I always have to wonder how anti-choicers* intend to enforce laws like "abortion is murder" without invading my right to privacy. I mean, think about it, how can they logically enforce such a law? How will they make sure that miscarriages were not intentional? What about women who travel to other areas to have an abortion where it's considered legal? In order to enforce such a law they will need to know who is pregnant and who is not. There's just no logical way to legally enforce such a law without essentially making legislation that turns women into breeding cattle. -_-;
* I refuse to call anti-choicers "pro-lifers." Why? Because I have yet to meet a pro-choicer who is "Yay! Kill fetuses! Yay destroy life! Yay! Kill all babies!" Every single pro-choicer I have ever spoken to agrees that there are much more preferable options for birth control (condoms, spermicides, birth control pills, or, ya know plain old-fashioned abstinence) than abortion, we just want it to be an option in the event that it is needed. So I view it as a debate over whether we should have the choice to abort or not. So it's pro-choice or anti-choice.
I think this was actually one of the biggest reasons for abortion being legalised in the first place, in many places. It was happening anyway, so it made more sense for it to be legal, and therefore subject to health and safety laws, than to have it remain illegal. In the end, banning abortion would have little to no effect on the abortion rates, but would increase the number of deaths due to unsafe abortion.
Anyway, yeah, I'm pro-choice (you'd probably guessed, but I'm putting it here anyway). Hi.
Exactly. One of my favourite blogs points this out all the time: in places where abortion is illegal, the abortion rate remains the same while the death toll rises. There are still more alleys than clinics.
Essentially: politically, I'm pro-choice. Scientifically, fetus=/= baby, and there's a seperation between state and church. It's not even a question, it's logic. But I'd, personally, never abort a kid, but I won't look badly on someone else if they do. It's way more complicated then, "I hate kids, kill them ALL!!!!" O.o
Logistically speaking, giving "personhood" to fetii (?) creates a whole set of legal headaches. Two people cannot have a right to the same body. Would pregnant women be legally required to abstain from alcohol and tobacco, to exercise, to eat right, to take vitamins? Would EVERY woman in her childbearing years be required to do those things, a la The Handmaid's Tale? Would all miscarriages be investigated the way any death of unknown origin is investigated? Would doctors be required to save both the fetus and the mother? What if only one could be saved?
I am pro-choice/pro-life. Just as not all pro-choicers are pro-abortion in the way you stated ("yay, lets kill babies), it doesn't mean all pro-lifers are anti-choice!
I actually don't like the terms "pro-life" and "pro-choice" as they aren't actually opposites, so if anything I prefer to say I am pro-choice but anti-abortion.
Pro-choice because it should be the pregnant woman's decision (anti-choice is where the choice is taken away from the woman, this would bean the chooser (ie government) could force a woman to undergo an abortion or take extreme measures to ensure she doesn't have one. ) Anti-abortion because I don't think abortion is always a good thing and should only be considered in certin circumstances. Pro abortion for me is where abortion is a fine thing, not in a "yay! kill the babies!" way but considered like the oral contraceptive, any woman should have the right to have access to it at any time.
I have nothing against people who are pro-abortion, being pro-choice it means I think they have the right to choose their opinion on any matter, including abortion!
Can we edit posts yet? It might be nice if we can to edit the forst post and state if only pro-choice/pro-abortionists are allowed or pro-choice/anti-abortionists are too because to be honest I find the term "pro-choice" confusing as somtimes it doesn't include all pro-choicers.
I don't think there's anything wrong with civil debate, but it doesn't seem like J-man is really the "dialogue" type. And I spent too much time debating with the pro-lifers last year, so I shouldn't talk.
LocationOn the couch, in my house, in the middle of Nowhere, USA
JoinedOctober 8, 2008
Posts25
I remember that debate, Shem.
I agree with everything said so far including not understanding the need for the threads in the first place.
I tend to ride the fence on this issue and I can understand the points made by both sides, but I lean a little more towards pro-Choice. Abortion isn't going to go away if it's outlawed. I would much rather have women have a place of clean facilities and sterilized tools.
Also, I've got to agree with the anti-Choice thing. I think life extends beyond strictly abortion. If you're pro-life you ought to be for all life, but I don't hear the other side getting up in arms over the death penalty, genocide, or any of a number of other life-preserving issues.
Well, as the 'lope is a whopping 14 years old, perhaps we should attempt a smidge of tolerance. I mean, at 14 I knew Absolutely Everything, too. ;->
It's true that abortion is a crappy method of birth control, but it beats the snot out of *no* birth control. And the stats on the failure rate of condoms. pills, et al., when you do the math, would seem to leave you with the unpalatable result that a sexually active woman faces a really large risk of unintended pregnancy over the course of her life. That being the case, then abortion has to remain as the last resort when other methods of contraception fail.
It's not something I foresee coming up in the genres I tend to write, but of course pro-choice is my default treatment of the matter because it's the only one that actually makes sense if you are a decent human being.
It doesn't tend to come up in my stories - I write high fantasy - but the one time pregnancy was an issue worth discussing in a story, the idea of having an abortion was taken rather well. The girl in question was 14, the sister of the king, and not committed to either of the men who could have made her pregnant, and both her, her brother, and the two potential fathers agreed that it was probably the best option. The whole exchange is maybe three lines long, and isn't really brought up again, but if you have a bit of background in what the medievals thought X herb and Y did and you pay attention to the filler sentences, it's definitely implied that she isn't pregnant by the end of the story.
I don't think I've ever written about the subject. If I do, I'm confident enough that my opinions will show one way or the other. Isn't it what being an author is about?
I've written a few abortions in a historically-based setting before. (Keep in mind, no modern politics, no modern medicine.) One of these was accidentally fatal to the mother, and the other wasn't. I've also mentioned at least one more that I remember off the top of my head in backstory that happened five or so years before the story began. It's implied that it's common in the setting, but with a mostly male cast and a lack of modern politics, it's mostly just treated as "women's matters," and there are no debates either way. It just happens and life goes on.
Interesting. The topic seems to be cropping up in my nano too. One (possibly two) of my characters is going to get an abortion, whereas another is going to be denied one (that part will be happening 40ish years ago somewhere in Asia, so that might explain why she's not able to get one? How do I research out-of-date abortion laws of other countries??) and she ends up resenting and being cruel to her kids.
Abusive parents were already a key part of my plot, so putting that particular plot bunny in makes sense.
Pro-Choice Writers
If we have one, we may as well have the other. Hi! :)
Moderator Note: Please note that this is not a debate thread. This is a writing group for Pro-Choice writers. If you should see any attempts to stir a debate in this thread, please report them to the moderators.
Re: Pro-Choice Writers
I love you.
Re: Pro-Choice Writers
Good idea. :-)
Re: Pro-Choice Writers
Yay, this is awesome. :)
Re: Pro-Choice Writers
Holla!
Re: Pro-Choice Writers
Right on.
Re: Pro-Choice Writers
*fist-bump*
Re: Pro-Choice Writers
Gooooo basic human rights!
Re: Pro-Choice Writers
[Removed by Moderator]
Re: Pro-Choice Writers
Reported. This message has absolutely no place on this site, let alone in this particular group.
Re: Pro-Choice Writers
Thanks for reporting him. :) I've done the same.
I pointedly avoid the pro-life thread. It's just a place to say hello and chat with like-minded people. No need to harass us in our chat group. Save that for the Research Forum. :p
Re: Pro-Choice Writers
Preeeecisely. I'm not going into their thread to tell them what I think of them, and I expect the same respect in return--no matter how difficult it may seem.
Re: Pro-Choice Writers
I've also reported Jackalope. We're supposed to be respectful to everyone on the forums, and that includes playing nice with people who have differing opinions. It's a controversial issue and we should keep out of each other's threads-- this isn't a place for debate.
Re: Pro-Choice Writers
Just to be clear, the content itself was not necessarily against our Terms and conditions; it was absolutely inflammatory. However, it is inappropriate for this thread, as this is a gathering place for Pro-choice writers. There is a time and place for debate, and this thread is not it.
Re: Pro-Choice Writers
Hey, I'm on the fence but I would never make such inflammatory remarks. Although I'm not necessarily "one of you" I have also reported him. The Pro-Choice writers deserve to have a safe haven in this thread.
Re: Pro-Choice Writers
Roe v. Wade forever!
-Shem
Re: Pro-Choice Writers
Yo.
Re: Pro-Choice Writers
Count me in :)
Re: Pro-Choice Writers
:-)
Re: Pro-Choice Writers
What up! High-five for Choices!
Jackalope_Of_Misogyny
I usually judge any pro-life message by how many times it has the decency to mention the mother.
Jackelope's message, therefore, scores a zero.
Carry on.
-Shem
Re: Jackalope_Of_Misogyny
Nice.
Also, I see you're a fan of James Joyce. A rare breed, indeed. I'm fairly certain I'm the only of my friends who ever finished any of the man's books, let alone liked them.
Re: Jackalope_Of_Misogyny
Ophiucha,
Glad to meet another Joyce fan! Can't say I ever actually made it through Finnegans Wake, but Ulysses is one of my all-time favorites. My wife pines for the days of old-school Modernism. Have you read any of Dorothy Richardson's amazing Pilgrimage series?
-Shem
Re: Jackalope_Of_Misogyny
Yay! Other Joyce fans! Dubliners is my favorite. I've been trying to get my hands on an affordable (by which I mean used) copy of Ulysses for a few years now. Apparently nobody in my area actually gets rid of their copies. I'm moving, so hopefully I can get my hands on it in my new area.
(Yes, it does need to be a physical book. My bad eyesight complains less when reading long things on paper than on a screen, even with a program that adjusts the color at night.)
Re: Pro-Choice Writers
I agree re: the pro-life thread. We may disagree but I respect their right for an opinion, and their right to voice it, and their right to gather and chat about any number of things relevant and no. So I shall avoid their thread and leave them to it. It would be very impolite to take any other action.
The NaNo forums are always so pleasant, with such good feeling. This is genuinely the first time I think I've ever seen someone attempt to stir s#!t.
Re: Pro-Choice Writers
Yeah, this year is my seventh NaNo, and in all my time spent on here since 2005 this is the very first time I've ever even had the urge to report someone, much less felt the responsibility to follow through. Which I did, and thus the report pile on that post grows ever higher...
Regardless, I do find it fairly simple to avoid clicking on the threads that I know are just going to end up irking me (pro-lifers, etc.) as well as the ones that aren't relevant to my interests or life (Disney, left-handedness, etc.) and stick to the 'good' stuff.
Re: Pro-Choice Writers
I just don't understand why anyone felt the need to make a pro-"life" group in the first place, as it has so little to do with writing. We wouldn't need this thread in the first place if someone hadn't felt the other viewpoint was worth airing on NaNo.
Re: Pro-Choice Writers
True. It surprised me a little when I first saw it, to be honest.
(And obviously bothered me, but I'm not going there to post about why they shouldn't have the thread >_> Although I did start arguing with this guy in my class...)
Re: Pro-Choice Writers
I am pro-life, and I'm not here to say anything against anyone as a person. We disagree, that's that and I'm not here to cause trouble, but what's so wrong with making a group for Pro-life? Maybe peoples' writing has to do with pro-life, in which case it would be a perfectly acceptable to make a group.
Re: Pro-Choice Writers
My issue with it is that it is such a charged issue, and one that might best be taken elsewhere. NaNo is usually such an inclusive, welcoming place, and to have camps as divisive as pro-life vs. pro-choice doesn't really feel right for this site. And I know it seems hypocritical for me to be saying this as I'm posting in a thread for one of these camps, but if we have just one side, then members of the other are likely to feel uncomfortable. I know my first reaction when I saw the pro-life thread (before noticing the pro-choice one) was along the lines of 'Is that really the kind of people that are participating this year?' I was relieved to see that that was not the case.
But I'd rather neither board existed, honestly, so I (and others) wouldn't have had to feel that way in the first place.
Re: Pro-Choice Writers
Bodily autonomy for women and keeping the government out of my uterus, what's good!
No, but seriously, it annoys me that this is even a question in 2011.
Re: Pro-Choice Writers
Also bodily autonomy for people with uteri who don't identify as women.
Re: Pro-Choice Writers
I agree.
I wonder if the love the right-wing professes for the Founding Fathers is just nostalgia for an era when men didn't have to worry about women's rights. Among other things.
-Shem
Re: Pro-Choice Writers
This comment = win.
Re: Pro-Choice Writers
Right on!
I always have to wonder how anti-choicers* intend to enforce laws like "abortion is murder" without invading my right to privacy. I mean, think about it, how can they logically enforce such a law? How will they make sure that miscarriages were not intentional? What about women who travel to other areas to have an abortion where it's considered legal? In order to enforce such a law they will need to know who is pregnant and who is not. There's just no logical way to legally enforce such a law without essentially making legislation that turns women into breeding cattle. -_-;
* I refuse to call anti-choicers "pro-lifers." Why? Because I have yet to meet a pro-choicer who is "Yay! Kill fetuses! Yay destroy life! Yay! Kill all babies!" Every single pro-choicer I have ever spoken to agrees that there are much more preferable options for birth control (condoms, spermicides, birth control pills, or, ya know plain old-fashioned abstinence) than abortion, we just want it to be an option in the event that it is needed. So I view it as a debate over whether we should have the choice to abort or not. So it's pro-choice or anti-choice.
Re: Pro-Choice Writers
I think this was actually one of the biggest reasons for abortion being legalised in the first place, in many places. It was happening anyway, so it made more sense for it to be legal, and therefore subject to health and safety laws, than to have it remain illegal. In the end, banning abortion would have little to no effect on the abortion rates, but would increase the number of deaths due to unsafe abortion.
Anyway, yeah, I'm pro-choice (you'd probably guessed, but I'm putting it here anyway). Hi.
Re: Pro-Choice Writers
Exactly. One of my favourite blogs points this out all the time: in places where abortion is illegal, the abortion rate remains the same while the death toll rises. There are still more alleys than clinics.
Re: Pro-Choice Writers
[Removed by Moderator]
Re: Pro-Choice Writers
I'm pro-choice/anti-abortion. :D I'm odd.
Essentially: politically, I'm pro-choice. Scientifically, fetus=/= baby, and there's a seperation between state and church. It's not even a question, it's logic. But I'd, personally, never abort a kid, but I won't look badly on someone else if they do. It's way more complicated then, "I hate kids, kill them ALL!!!!" O.o
Re: Pro-Choice Writers
Logistically speaking, giving "personhood" to fetii (?) creates a whole set of legal headaches. Two people cannot have a right to the same body. Would pregnant women be legally required to abstain from alcohol and tobacco, to exercise, to eat right, to take vitamins? Would EVERY woman in her childbearing years be required to do those things, a la The Handmaid's Tale? Would all miscarriages be investigated the way any death of unknown origin is investigated? Would doctors be required to save both the fetus and the mother? What if only one could be saved?
Re: Pro-Choice Writers
I am pro-choice/pro-life. Just as not all pro-choicers are pro-abortion in the way you stated ("yay, lets kill babies), it doesn't mean all pro-lifers are anti-choice!
I actually don't like the terms "pro-life" and "pro-choice" as they aren't actually opposites, so if anything I prefer to say I am pro-choice but anti-abortion.
Pro-choice because it should be the pregnant woman's decision (anti-choice is where the choice is taken away from the woman, this would bean the chooser (ie government) could force a woman to undergo an abortion or take extreme measures to ensure she doesn't have one. )
Anti-abortion because I don't think abortion is always a good thing and should only be considered in certin circumstances. Pro abortion for me is where abortion is a fine thing, not in a "yay! kill the babies!" way but considered like the oral contraceptive, any woman should have the right to have access to it at any time.
I have nothing against people who are pro-abortion, being pro-choice it means I think they have the right to choose their opinion on any matter, including abortion!
Can we edit posts yet? It might be nice if we can to edit the forst post and state if only pro-choice/pro-abortionists are allowed or pro-choice/anti-abortionists are too because to be honest I find the term "pro-choice" confusing as somtimes it doesn't include all pro-choicers.
To Jackalope, or not to Jackalope?
I don't think there's anything wrong with civil debate, but it doesn't seem like J-man is really the "dialogue" type. And I spent too much time debating with the pro-lifers last year, so I shouldn't talk.
-Shem
Re: Pro-Choice Writers
I remember that debate, Shem.
I agree with everything said so far including not understanding the need for the threads in the first place.
I tend to ride the fence on this issue and I can understand the points made by both sides, but I lean a little more towards pro-Choice. Abortion isn't going to go away if it's outlawed. I would much rather have women have a place of clean facilities and sterilized tools.
Also, I've got to agree with the anti-Choice thing. I think life extends beyond strictly abortion. If you're pro-life you ought to be for all life, but I don't hear the other side getting up in arms over the death penalty, genocide, or any of a number of other life-preserving issues.
Re: Pro-Choice Writers
Well, as the 'lope is a whopping 14 years old, perhaps we should attempt a smidge of tolerance. I mean, at 14 I knew Absolutely Everything, too. ;->
It's true that abortion is a crappy method of birth control, but it beats the snot out of *no* birth control. And the stats on the failure rate of condoms. pills, et al., when you do the math, would seem to leave you with the unpalatable result that a sexually active woman faces a really large risk of unintended pregnancy over the course of her life. That being the case, then abortion has to remain as the last resort when other methods of contraception fail.
Re: Pro-Choice Writers
[Removed by Moderator]
Re: Pro-Choice Writers
=) I'm pro choice.
Re: Pro-Choice Writers
Any of you planning to express your pro-choice views through your writing?
I don't have any particular plans to, but I'd like to if the situation arises during this year's nano.
Re: Pro-Choice Writers
It's not something I foresee coming up in the genres I tend to write, but of course pro-choice is my default treatment of the matter because it's the only one that actually makes sense if you are a decent human being.
Re: Pro-Choice Writers
It doesn't tend to come up in my stories - I write high fantasy - but the one time pregnancy was an issue worth discussing in a story, the idea of having an abortion was taken rather well. The girl in question was 14, the sister of the king, and not committed to either of the men who could have made her pregnant, and both her, her brother, and the two potential fathers agreed that it was probably the best option. The whole exchange is maybe three lines long, and isn't really brought up again, but if you have a bit of background in what the medievals thought X herb and Y did and you pay attention to the filler sentences, it's definitely implied that she isn't pregnant by the end of the story.
Re: Pro-Choice Writers
I don't think I've ever written about the subject. If I do, I'm confident enough that my opinions will show one way or the other. Isn't it what being an author is about?
Re: Pro-Choice Writers
I've written a few abortions in a historically-based setting before. (Keep in mind, no modern politics, no modern medicine.) One of these was accidentally fatal to the mother, and the other wasn't. I've also mentioned at least one more that I remember off the top of my head in backstory that happened five or so years before the story began. It's implied that it's common in the setting, but with a mostly male cast and a lack of modern politics, it's mostly just treated as "women's matters," and there are no debates either way. It just happens and life goes on.
Re: Pro-Choice Writers
I'm writing historical fiction, and this thread has created a plot bunny for me...
Re: Pro-Choice Writers
Interesting. The topic seems to be cropping up in my nano too. One (possibly two) of my characters is going to get an abortion, whereas another is going to be denied one (that part will be happening 40ish years ago somewhere in Asia, so that might explain why she's not able to get one? How do I research out-of-date abortion laws of other countries??) and she ends up resenting and being cruel to her kids.
Abusive parents were already a key part of my plot, so putting that particular plot bunny in makes sense.