Pro-Choice Writers http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226 Ophiucha If we have one, we may as well have the other. Hi! :) <strong>Moderator Note: Please note that this is not a debate thread. This is a writing group for Pro-Choice writers. If you should see any attempts to stir a debate in this thread, please report them to the moderators.</strong> Tue, 11 Oct 2011 19:03:02 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_17656 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_17656 adorable fluffy kittens I love you. Tue, 11 Oct 2011 19:10:06 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_17807 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_17807 nanthimus Holla! Tue, 11 Oct 2011 19:20:34 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_18020 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_18020 Heather Kamins Right on. Tue, 11 Oct 2011 19:29:16 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_18188 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_18188 Cadaverine *fist-bump* Tue, 11 Oct 2011 20:04:58 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_18904 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_18904 Strawberry.Suite Gooooo basic human rights! Tue, 11 Oct 2011 20:31:33 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_19420 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_19420 Shem-the-Penman Roe v. Wade forever! -Shem Tue, 11 Oct 2011 20:37:01 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_19536 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_19536 amandapsychedelia Yo. Tue, 11 Oct 2011 20:40:11 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_19611 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_19611 Circe Marda Count me in :) Tue, 11 Oct 2011 21:00:32 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_20028 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_20028 Jackalope_Of_Evul [Removed by Moderator] Tue, 11 Oct 2011 22:29:29 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_21684 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_21684 Strawberry.Suite Reported. This message has absolutely no place on this site, let alone in this particular group. Tue, 11 Oct 2011 22:51:16 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_21988 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_21988 Ophiucha Thanks for reporting him. :) I've done the same. I pointedly avoid the pro-life thread. It's just a place to say hello and chat with like-minded people. No need to harass us in our chat group. Save that for the Research Forum. :p Wed, 12 Oct 2011 01:04:26 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_23368 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_23368 Phoenix :-) Wed, 12 Oct 2011 01:18:40 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_23466 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_23466 Strawberry.Suite Preeeecisely. I'm not going into their thread to tell them what I think of them, and I expect the same respect in return--no matter how difficult it may seem. Wed, 12 Oct 2011 02:21:11 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_23908 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_23908 soitgoes What up! High-five for Choices! Wed, 12 Oct 2011 03:07:26 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_24224 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_24224 Shem-the-Penman I usually judge any pro-life message by how many times it has the decency to mention the mother. Jackelope's message, therefore, scores a zero. Carry on. -Shem Wed, 12 Oct 2011 03:20:04 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_24305 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_24305 Cadaverine I agree re: the pro-life thread. We may disagree but I respect their right for an opinion, and their right to voice it, and their right to gather and chat about any number of things relevant and no. So I shall avoid their thread and leave them to it. It would be very impolite to take any other action. The NaNo forums are always so pleasant, with such good feeling. This is genuinely the first time I think I've ever seen someone attempt to stir s#!t. Wed, 12 Oct 2011 03:23:41 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_24329 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_24329 Ophiucha Nice. Also, I see you're a fan of James Joyce. A rare breed, indeed. I'm fairly certain I'm the only of my friends who ever finished any of the man's books, let alone liked them. Wed, 12 Oct 2011 03:26:57 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_24358 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_24358 adorable fluffy kittens Yeah, this year is my seventh NaNo, and in all my time spent on here since 2005 this is the very first time I've ever even had the urge to report someone, much less felt the responsibility to follow through. Which I did, and thus the report pile on that post grows ever higher... Regardless, I do find it fairly simple to avoid clicking on the threads that I know are just going to end up irking me (pro-lifers, etc.) as well as the ones that aren't relevant to my interests or life (Disney, left-handedness, etc.) and stick to the 'good' stuff. Wed, 12 Oct 2011 04:15:50 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_24657 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_24657 Strawberry.Suite I just don't understand why anyone felt the need to make a pro-"life" group in the first place, as it has so little to do with writing. We wouldn't need this thread in the first place if someone hadn't felt the other viewpoint was worth airing on NaNo. Wed, 12 Oct 2011 05:04:35 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_24956 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_24956 myyearinlists Bodily autonomy for women and keeping the government out of my uterus, what's good! No, but seriously, it annoys me that this is even a question in 2011. Wed, 12 Oct 2011 05:11:47 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_24990 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_24990 Bramblepath True. It surprised me a little when I first saw it, to be honest. (And obviously bothered me, but I'm not going there to post about why they shouldn't have the thread &gt;_&gt; Although I did start arguing with this guy in my class...) Wed, 12 Oct 2011 06:03:13 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_25288 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_25288 Shem-the-Penman Ophiucha, Glad to meet another Joyce fan! Can't say I ever actually made it through <em>Finnegans Wake</em>, but <em>Ulysses<em> is one of my all-time favorites. My wife pines for the days of old-school Modernism. Have you read any of Dorothy Richardson's amazing <em>Pilgrimage</em> series? -Shem</em></em> Wed, 12 Oct 2011 08:07:28 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_26423 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_26423 Shem-the-Penman [quote]No, but seriously, it annoys me that this is even a question in 2011.[/quote] I agree. I wonder if the love the right-wing professes for the Founding Fathers is just nostalgia for an era when men didn't have to worry about women's rights. Among other things. -Shem Wed, 12 Oct 2011 12:09:06 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_29368 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_29368 Inkling Dreams Right on! I always have to wonder how anti-choicers* intend to enforce laws like "abortion is murder" without invading my right to privacy. I mean, think about it, how can they logically enforce such a law? How will they make sure that miscarriages were not intentional? What about women who travel to other areas to have an abortion where it's considered legal? In order to enforce such a law they will need to know who is pregnant and who is not. There's just no logical way to legally enforce such a law without essentially making legislation that turns women into breeding cattle. -_-; * I refuse to call anti-choicers "pro-lifers." Why? Because I have yet to meet a pro-choicer who is "Yay! Kill fetuses! Yay destroy life! Yay! Kill all babies!" Every single pro-choicer I have ever spoken to agrees that there are much more preferable options for birth control (condoms, spermicides, birth control pills, or, ya know plain old-fashioned abstinence) than abortion, we just want it to be an option in the event that it is needed. So I view it as a debate over whether we should have the choice to abort or not. So it's pro-choice or anti-choice. Wed, 12 Oct 2011 13:01:13 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_30073 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_30073 Rhianna I've also reported Jackalope. We're supposed to be respectful to everyone on the forums, and that includes playing nice with people who have differing opinions. It's a controversial issue and we should keep out of each other's threads-- this isn't a place for debate. Wed, 12 Oct 2011 13:14:14 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_30249 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_30249 Shem-the-Penman I don't think there's anything wrong with civil debate, but it doesn't seem like J-man is really the "dialogue" type. And I spent too much time debating with the pro-lifers last year, so I shouldn't talk. -Shem Wed, 12 Oct 2011 14:04:03 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_30984 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_30984 ImaDotifIonlywasaSplotch I remember that debate, Shem. I agree with everything said so far including not understanding the need for the threads in the first place. I tend to ride the fence on this issue and I can understand the points made by both sides, but I lean a little more towards pro-Choice. Abortion isn't going to go away if it's outlawed. I would much rather have women have a place of clean facilities and sterilized tools. Also, I've got to agree with the anti-Choice thing. I think life extends beyond strictly abortion. If you're pro-life you ought to be for all life, but I don't hear the other side getting up in arms over the death penalty, genocide, or any of a number of other life-preserving issues. Wed, 12 Oct 2011 14:42:10 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_31636 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_31636 Phoenix Well, as the 'lope is a whopping 14 years old, perhaps we should attempt a smidge of tolerance. I mean, at 14 I knew Absolutely Everything, too. ;-&gt; It's true that abortion is a crappy method of birth control, but it beats the snot out of *no* birth control. And the stats on the failure rate of condoms. pills, et al., when you do the math, would seem to leave you with the unpalatable result that a sexually active woman faces a really large risk of unintended pregnancy over the course of her life. That being the case, then abortion has to remain as the last resort when other methods of contraception fail. Wed, 12 Oct 2011 15:35:50 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_32523 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_32523 Fyreheart =) I'm pro choice. Wed, 12 Oct 2011 16:17:59 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_33162 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_33162 wintertulip Any of you planning to express your pro-choice views through your writing? I don't have any particular plans to, but I'd like to if the situation arises during this year's nano. Wed, 12 Oct 2011 16:31:11 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_33361 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_33361 Strawberry.Suite It's not something I foresee coming up in the genres I tend to write, but of course pro-choice is my default treatment of the matter because it's the only one that actually makes sense if you are a decent human being. Wed, 12 Oct 2011 16:49:38 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_33610 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_33610 lemming_the_lemming I think this was actually one of the biggest reasons for abortion being legalised in the first place, in many places. It was happening anyway, so it made more sense for it to be legal, and therefore subject to health and safety laws, than to have it remain illegal. In the end, banning abortion would have little to no effect on the abortion rates, but would increase the number of deaths due to unsafe abortion. Anyway, yeah, I'm pro-choice (you'd probably guessed, but I'm putting it here anyway). Hi. Wed, 12 Oct 2011 17:38:33 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_34397 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_34397 Strawberry.Suite Exactly. One of my favourite blogs points this out all the time: in places where abortion is illegal, the abortion rate remains the same while the death toll rises. There are still more alleys than clinics. Wed, 12 Oct 2011 17:50:42 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_34574 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_34574 Ophiucha It doesn't tend to come up in my stories - I write high fantasy - but the one time pregnancy was an issue worth discussing in a story, the idea of having an abortion was taken rather well. The girl in question was 14, the sister of the king, and not committed to either of the men who could have made her pregnant, and both her, her brother, and the two potential fathers agreed that it was probably the best option. The whole exchange is maybe three lines long, and isn't really brought up again, but if you have a bit of background in what the medievals thought X herb and Y did and you pay attention to the filler sentences, it's definitely implied that she isn't pregnant by the end of the story. Wed, 12 Oct 2011 18:01:08 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_34734 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_34734 Cadaverine Lawd I need to learn to bite my tongue. Even when I'm being polite. ANYWAY. I don't think this issue has ever come up in my work. Although I can't say I'd ever write a character who had children at all. It's just not a part of the stories I have to tell - not at this point, anyway. Wed, 12 Oct 2011 21:55:51 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_38226 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_38226 Strawberry.Suite I have a hell of a time being polite when it comes to this particular issue. Maybe it's because I know that I'm right and they're wrong. xD Wed, 12 Oct 2011 22:30:26 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_38696 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_38696 Cadaverine I didn't even really say much. But someone said "pro-choice is the wrong thing to call it" as if everyone who was pro-choice was all about killin' foetuses. I mean, someone could be pro-choice and *never* choose to have an abortion themselves. So I just said it was as accurate as "pro-life" anyway, and disappeared. I won't be going back in. I was stupid to go in in the first place and more so to say anything. I feel like an ass for saying it and it wasn't even a mean or angry thing to say. Wed, 12 Oct 2011 22:40:54 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_38814 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_38814 Strawberry.Suite I read what you said, and I didn't think it was bad at all. You were certainly more composed than I would have been! And I am sick of the sentiment that pro-"life"-ers are "standing up for babies that can't stand up for themselves." They're not babies. They seriously look like this: 8. Only like a billion times smaller. By their definition, the human body is constantly creating and destroying life in every biological process we perform every second. The only difference between a zygote and any other cell your body creates is that the zygote has crap from some dude mixed in. A huge percentage of the interactions between lady cells and dude cells end in spontaneous abortion anyway. Are those women "killing babies" when they miscarry? Do we light a candle every time a woman flushes out an egg cell that happens to be unviably fertilized? I'm a biology student. I know what these cells look like, what they are made of, and how they perform in the human body. There are worlds of difference between a zygote and a baby, and I am loath to assign personhood to a disorganized bundle of chromosomes. Wed, 12 Oct 2011 22:58:08 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_39028 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_39028 Strawberry.Suite Aaaand they're praying for us now. xD I won't respond to them there, but I'll say it here: pro-choicers don't scorn mothers for choosing to carry their pregnancies to term. At all. It's an enormous sacrifice deserving of respect. In return, I expect respect for the fact that my body is not capable of carrying a pregnancy to term, and that I will choose my own life first. This is what pro-choice means. Wed, 12 Oct 2011 23:02:27 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_39084 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_39084 Cadaverine They can go ahead and pray for us. I will pray that Loki sets their hair on fire. Wed, 12 Oct 2011 23:40:03 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_39414 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_39414 gardenswing I'm pro-choice too. I don't think it has ever come into my fiction directly. But I do deal with sexuality in my stories and that includes making reproductive choices. I actually have a story where a young woman gets pregnant in a less than ideal situation, and she does keep the pregnancy. It was right for that particular character, and *her* journey. So, yes, I definitely honour both choices. Thu, 13 Oct 2011 00:13:35 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_39712 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_39712 cheesypeas yay! pro-choice here too :) Though I really don't see what this has to do with NaNo, but... it's still an important issue. Personally I feel that people can have whatever views they want on the subject, just as long as they don't go touching the legal side of it... you know, If you don't like abortions, no one's forcing you to have one ;) I also hate the "you could just give it up for adoption if you don't want a kid" -argument, since these people don't seem to understand the fact that being pregnant for 9 months and giving birth to child is not just a walk in the park or something, it's serios bodily changes, discomfort etc etc, not to mention serious awkwardness in social situations, especially if your very young. Anyway this whole pro-choice, pro-life (which is a horrible term anyway) thing thankfully isn't such a big dilemma here in FInland, only the very far right seem to oppose the right for an abortion :) I think not wanting a baby is a good enough reason not to have it. Thu, 13 Oct 2011 00:19:08 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_39745 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_39745 Cadaverine (I feel like someone may take this seriously. I do not genuinely want their hair to catch fire.) Thu, 13 Oct 2011 00:22:58 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_39774 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_39774 Cadaverine Is anyone else here tokophobic? Thu, 13 Oct 2011 00:23:28 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_39779 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_39779 Strawberry.Suite Loki is definitely one that requires disclaimers. Thu, 13 Oct 2011 00:28:25 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_39818 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_39818 cheesypeas Somewhat, I'd say. I haven't decided whether I want kids one day or not, but the thought of giving birth just gives me the absolute creeps... especially when you hear those stories of people giving birth for like 24hrs and with the rips and stuff... * shudders * Thu, 13 Oct 2011 00:29:57 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_39831 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_39831 Strawberry.Suite I wouldn't say I'm phobic, as I'm not squicked out or anything by other people being pregnant or giving birth ... though I would rather wait outside the delivery room until the little pink thing is dry, wrapped up and snuggable. I am afraid of what the process would do to my own body. I honestly do not think I would survive the pregnancy. Thu, 13 Oct 2011 00:36:47 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_39895 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_39895 Shem-the-Penman That's one thing anti-choicers forget when they insist on a woman being forced to bring a pregnancy to term: even in the USA, hundreds of women still die in childbirth every year. I have two kids of my own, so I know the difference between a fertilized egg inside a woman's body and a baby on a blanket on the living room floor. The mother is the difference, regardless of how desperately the fundies try to dehumanize her. She should make the choice, and we should respect it. -Shem Thu, 13 Oct 2011 03:24:53 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_40817 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_40817 Earthsick Count me in. Because having no choice at all is horrible. We're not living in medieval times anymore. Thu, 13 Oct 2011 04:43:42 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_41203 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_41203 Ophiucha I'm not sure I'd say phobic for me, either, but I don't think I could handle it. I used to take hormonal birth control, and even that was tough on me, I was constantly nauseous and, for lack of a politer term, a bit of a loon. My emotions went up and down constantly, and I know if I'm pregnant, it'll just be worse. But I also am at high risk of having an ectopic pregnancy if I do happen to get pregnant, and I'm not exactly going to be carrying one of those to term, if it doesn't sort itself out naturally. Luckily, I live in Canada right now, so it won't be a concern. Thu, 13 Oct 2011 05:51:28 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_41608 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_41608 adorable fluffy kittens I just wish for Ganesh to grant them some compassion. :S Thu, 13 Oct 2011 06:16:31 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_41780 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_41780 adorable fluffy kittens Yup. Though I do prefer to think of it as sensibility and not a 'phobia' per se. Thu, 13 Oct 2011 06:19:09 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_41797 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_41797 littleoph [quote]Anyway this whole pro-choice, pro-life (which is a horrible term anyway) thing thankfully isn't such a big dilemma here in FInland, only the very far right seem to oppose the right for an abortion :) [/quote] The situation in France is the same... officially. The facts are slightly different: someone willing to get an abortion will have to go through a legal and medical procedure first, and in the process, is likely to encounter people who will try to talk her out of aborting the child. Still, there won't be a mob outside yelling at the doctors and calling them assassins. My husband and I talked about the subject of unwanted pregnancies. We both admit that, although our house, hearts and... nerves are full enough as they are, we'd welcome the hypothetical birth-control-defying embryo. Reluctantly at first. But we know we can have children and raise them (and get mad at them, and love them to bits anyway). However, the fact that I don't plan to have an abortion if the subject arises doesn't mean I deny the right to anyone to do it. Heck, my Mom had one! It was a hard time for her, she had three more children after that, and she is no less, I repeat, no less respectable than anyone. Thu, 13 Oct 2011 06:50:57 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_42043 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_42043 littleoph I don't think I've ever written about the subject. If I do, I'm confident enough that my opinions will show one way or the other. Isn't it what being an author is about? Thu, 13 Oct 2011 06:56:23 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_42096 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_42096 wintertulip I'm scared of pregnancy and birth in the same way as I'm scared of other life-threatening medical conditions that could leave me mutilated and incontinent. Although I probably spend more time worrying about pregnancy because I'm statistically more likely to suffer from it than other illnesses at this stage in my life. Thu, 13 Oct 2011 07:18:30 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_42264 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_42264 Shem-the-Penman [Removed by Moderator Thu, 13 Oct 2011 07:23:11 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_42302 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_42302 littleoph If they could read, they'd see that I, for one, would most certainly choose to carry the little one to term. I'm still pro-choice deep inside. Anyway, does it matter? Being considered an idiot by a fool is a gourmet's delight... Thu, 13 Oct 2011 07:46:23 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_42467 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_42467 Shem-the-Penman Are you calling me an idiot, or calling me a fool? Either one is appropriate, I'm just asking. -Shem Thu, 13 Oct 2011 07:53:12 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_42525 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_42525 Cadaverine Haha, yes, I've met a few people who feel that way too ;) Given all the things that happen to your body during pregnancy, it really doesn't seem like an "irrational" fear! Thu, 13 Oct 2011 07:54:41 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_42542 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_42542 littleoph In this context? You're among the ones that fools call idiots. The saying I must have mis-quoted because of my poor English encourages you to actually enjoy it. Thu, 13 Oct 2011 08:27:03 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_42866 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_42866 indeliblecello Hey, I'm on the fence but I would never make such inflammatory remarks. Although I'm not necessarily "one of you" I have also reported him. The Pro-Choice writers deserve to have a safe haven in this thread. Thu, 13 Oct 2011 09:40:30 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_43625 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_43625 Circe Marda I will not comment on the pro-life thread, I will not comment on the pro-life thread, I will not comment on the pro-life thread. It just breaks my heart that they demonize us, talking about the "culture of life", inferring we are all about the "culture of death". I'm not a bad person. If the mother or the child is in serious danger if this pregnancy is carried to term, or the mother is too young to have a child, or she was raped by a father or brother or uncle and became pregnant, then why shouldn't she be allowed the choice of aborting the child? If she chooses to carry it to term, that is her decision as well! It's not about saying you MUST abort, but saying you have the CHOICE. If you want to walk into an abortion clinic, you should do so without the harassment of angry people unwilling to see your side of it, only the side of the four-week old fetus in you that doesn't even know it's alive. And what happens if we make abortion illegal? It won't go away. If anything, more mothers and babies will die because of back alley abortions because of unsafe or unclean environments. More babies will be left motherless because the mother was told she would not make it to term and more children will face foster homes or orphanages. We will have more life and less people to take care of it. A mother will struggle to feed her child and herself and who will be there to help her then? The politicians have done their part. They saved the baby. Now it's the mother, who was unprepared, jobs to raise this child. Where is her help then? If you're pro-life and you want this baby to come to term, then stand beside this mother until that baby is 18. It takes a village. I'll step off my soap-box. I am quite proud of myself for not posting this in the pro-life thread -pats self on back- (I do want to write a short story or even a novel dealing with this debate. I hope to do it justice.) Thu, 13 Oct 2011 10:04:25 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_43873 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_43873 Jackalope_Of_Evul [Removed by Moderator] Thu, 13 Oct 2011 10:42:24 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_44310 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_44310 Jackalope_Of_Evul [Removed by Moderator] Thu, 13 Oct 2011 10:48:45 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_44382 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_44382 Dragonchilde Just to be clear, the content itself was not necessarily against our Terms and conditions; it was absolutely inflammatory. However, it is inappropriate for this thread, as this is a gathering place for Pro-choice writers. There is a time and place for debate, and this thread is not it. Thu, 13 Oct 2011 11:13:20 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_44690 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_44690 Dragonchilde Okay folks, first, let me thank you for your reports. The situation has been removed. However, in the interest of heading off further problems, let's try to keep things on topic. Commenting over here about things said on another thread is not any better than going over to comment on their thread, and it INVITES problems between the two threads, and is just asking for a debate. Let this thread be FOR Pro Choice writers... not against Pro Life writers, or a place to complain about things being said in threads you disagree with. If someone would like to debate, they are welcome to start a separate thread (probably in off topic) to do so, but I will warn you that such threads rarely remain respectful long, and there is rarely a point because I've never seen anyone's mind changed. Threads that get disrespectful and remain a consistent problem end up being closed. Thu, 13 Oct 2011 11:29:49 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_44881 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_44881 adorable fluffy kittens Thanks for stepping in. I know I'd rather have a space to meet likeminded individuals rather than an intense bioethical debate, and while I can't exactly speak for the other participants of this thread, I promise to refrain from stepping on anybody's toes if possible. Thu, 13 Oct 2011 12:06:30 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_45308 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_45308 Inkling Dreams I despise the "you could just give it up for adoption" thing as well. I mean, yes that is a perfectly viable option for women who choose not to have an abortion. That's great, that's fantastic, but that's not an option I want. I want to be able to terminate a potential pregnancy. And I would even go as far to say that legally forcing a woman to carry her pregnancy to term, in my eyes, would constitute as torture. It's just fine if said woman WANTS to give birth, it's wonderful in fact. But forcing a woman who does not want to be pregnant for nine months, does not want to go through labor, does not want to deal with the serious mental and physical changes and effects that can result from pregnancy, or the social situations that can be caused by a less-than-ideal pregnancy situation, to me, that's qualifies as torture just as much as beating her. And I dunno about anyone else but I feel institutionalized, legalized torture is wrong. Thu, 13 Oct 2011 12:33:55 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_45600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_45600 Strawberry.Suite I'm totally with you on the changing minds thing--this is a subject I pretty much never bother to seriously debate with anyone because there's just no convincing anybody on a matter like this. I know I'm right, and I'm not budging! And I'm sure they feel the same way. Thu, 13 Oct 2011 13:00:08 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_45948 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_45948 Nonny I'm absolutely pro-choice. The gov't can stay OUT of my uterus, tyvm! Thu, 13 Oct 2011 16:52:13 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_48993 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_48993 Nonny I am. I have a stack of pregnancy tests in my cupboard because, even though I'm on birth control and have severe PCOS, I'm still terrified it could happen. The thought is one of the few things that turns my stomach. Thu, 13 Oct 2011 16:53:39 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_49013 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_49013 myyearinlists I've never written any fiction where a woman <em>obtains</em> an abortion, but it was discussed in my NaNo novel from 2009, actually : my FMC has been having an affair with a coworker for a couple years; she gets pregnant; he asks if it's his and she basically says as much as "If it were yours, I wouldn't keep it." I mean, in a much more tactful way, but still. (That whole novel was actually one of the most interesting, feminist-influenced things I've ever written - it was originally inspired by Kate Chopin's "The Storm," and then expanded and expanded upon and turned into a piece of modern literary fiction about the ethics of marriage and how taking a lover can be all well and good until somebody gets The Feelings. I'm still proud of it.) Speaking of pro-choice media, have any of you guys ever seen the short film <em>Obvious Child</em>? Jenny Slate (she of Saturday Night Live and Marcel the Shell with Shoes On) plays a hipster who gets an abortion and it's treated really well, not like the end of the world or a terrible decision. You can watch it <a href="http://vimeo.com/6410278" rel="nofollow">here</a>. Thu, 13 Oct 2011 16:56:22 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_49052 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_49052 Phoenix I haven't looked at the anti-abortion/"pro-life" thread. I really don't see much point; I've been listening to anti-abortion rhetoric for over five decades, and I haven't heard anything new in...hm...over five decades. What *is* new is some of the widely-disseminated faux-science videos and information. I'm giving "Silent Scream" my vote for Most Grotesque--not for the film footage but for the truly despicable and twisted brain that would try to foist that mass of misinformation off on already scared and under-informed teens. For shame! The prize for Funniest "Theory" would have to go to the genius who claimed that clearly there was no overpopulation problem because you could shoehorn everyone into the state of Texas...oy. But ain't it a great visual?! Thu, 13 Oct 2011 18:03:37 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_49794 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_49794 Cadaverine A friend just linked me to this: http://www.prochoiceamerica.org/media/press-releases/2011/pr10132011_hr358passage.html I mean I don't even... Thu, 13 Oct 2011 18:34:26 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_50140 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_50140 yoghurtelf I'm definitely pro-choice, all the way!! I find it strange that there was a pro-life one in the first place, but oh well :P Thu, 13 Oct 2011 20:17:16 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_51488 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_51488 novelgirl4991 I am pro-life, and I'm not here to say anything against anyone as a person. We disagree, that's that and I'm not here to cause trouble, but what's so wrong with making a group for Pro-life? Maybe peoples' writing has to do with pro-life, in which case it would be a perfectly acceptable to make a group. Thu, 13 Oct 2011 20:54:03 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_51948 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_51948 Bad_Ailuros Agreed! Thu, 13 Oct 2011 21:07:37 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_52161 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_52161 Bad_Ailuros Pro-Choice. It's up to the parents to make medical decisions for minors, including whether to bring them into this world or not. I never understood the idea of "well they don't have a choice!" We certainly don't let six year-olds commit suicide, even if that is their choice. We don't even allow euthanasia. How can we have right-to-life, if we don't even have the right to die? Having grown up in hospital wings and shuffled between doctors and children's wards, there are many, many kids I know who wish they had never been born, and it's the parents' job to determine whether they are capable of providing love, food, shelter and medical care for the child. If they cannot, it is much more merciful to never bring them into existence. Adoption is nice, but there are so many kids out there who never get adopted, and adoption is not an option for women who don't have money to pay for such things. Anyway, I talk too much. Thu, 13 Oct 2011 21:14:16 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_52243 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_52243 Bad_Ailuros Not tokophobic, but pocrescophobic, which amounts to pregnancy being torture all the same. Thu, 13 Oct 2011 21:19:10 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_52303 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_52303 khshackelford My womb, my choice! Thu, 13 Oct 2011 22:17:50 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_52916 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_52916 IsBreaLiomCaife Yay! Other Joyce fans! Dubliners is my favorite. I've been trying to get my hands on an affordable (by which I mean used) copy of Ulysses for a few years now. Apparently nobody in my area actually gets rid of their copies. I'm moving, so hopefully I can get my hands on it in my new area. (Yes, it does need to be a physical book. My bad eyesight complains less when reading long things on paper than on a screen, even with a program that adjusts the color at night.) Thu, 13 Oct 2011 23:29:37 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_53524 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_53524 IsBreaLiomCaife I've written a few abortions in a historically-based setting before. (Keep in mind, no modern politics, no modern medicine.) One of these was accidentally fatal to the mother, and the other wasn't. I've also mentioned at least one more that I remember off the top of my head in backstory that happened five or so years before the story began. It's implied that it's common in the setting, but with a mostly male cast and a lack of modern politics, it's mostly just treated as "women's matters," and there are no debates either way. It just happens and life goes on. Thu, 13 Oct 2011 23:33:48 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_53558 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_53558 IsBreaLiomCaife I just wanted to point something that I saw out. I saw a pro-life individual (not here...in a news article somewhere) refer to pro-choice as being "pro-death." That one really irks me. Anyone else care to comment? Thu, 13 Oct 2011 23:35:32 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_53567 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_53567 cheesypeas That's the thing I hate about "pro-life" as a term... I don't see them worried about all the wars in the world or the starving children of Africa or anything... I mean, it's not like pro-lifers are like "Kill the babies, KILL ALL THE BABIES!!!" Life is great, and that's why I want to be able to choose how I'm going to live it. Thu, 13 Oct 2011 23:56:44 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_53712 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_53712 cheesypeas EDIT: of course, I meant pro-choicers in the third sentence Thu, 13 Oct 2011 23:57:41 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_53719 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_53719 IsBreaLiomCaife Grown-up adopted child whose only reason for existence is most likely either that my biological mother couldn't afford an abortion or that the Catholic church doesn't take kindly to them. Even kids who do get adopted often wish they were never born in the first place, especially when the rest of the class finds out that you look absolutely nothing like your mother, despite the fact that they placed you with a family that was a fairly close match for nationality and hair/eye coloring. Kids are extremely cruel, and even when you have a very, very tough shell, being constantly told that you're not even good enough for your own mother to love you, day in and day out for years, is extremely difficult. I've met more adopted kids who wish they were never born, feel unwanted and/or unloved, have suicidal tendencies, are perfectionists as a result of constantly being told they're unloved and not good enough, and won't trust someone until that person proves that they can be trusted than I can count. Adoption is no picnic either, and it shouldn't be taken lightly as an option by a pregnant woman. "Oh I can just give my baby away and someone else will love it and do what I failed to." What's crueler? To not have the child in the first place or to let it spend its entire life thinking that its mother didn't love it. I also believe that we should have a right to die without it being a criminal offense or reason to lock someone in a psych ward. Fri, 14 Oct 2011 00:05:55 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_53797 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_53797 adorable fluffy kittens Yep. That's exactly the sort of thing we're up against here in the States nowadays. I try not to let myself get too angry over it, though. Anger isn't a particularly useful emotion. Calm, rational discourse is much more useful in the long-term, I think, though overt emotional appeals <em>do</em> tend to be more convincing to those people who don't like to think too much. *sigh* Fri, 14 Oct 2011 00:35:25 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_54011 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_54011 adorable fluffy kittens [quote]I also believe that we should have a right to die without it being a criminal offense or reason to lock someone in a psych ward.[/quote] ...and that's why I predicted that if things ever <em>did</em> end up in a debate thread over in the Off Topic area, it'd be a debate of bioethics in general, not just abortion rights. A lot of us have a lot of strong opinions on a lot of subjects. (I'm absolutely on the death-with-dignity side, by the way. It <em>does</em> tie in with my other opinions.) Fri, 14 Oct 2011 00:38:48 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_54028 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_54028 Strawberry.Suite My issue with it is that it is such a charged issue, and one that might best be taken elsewhere. NaNo is usually such an inclusive, welcoming place, and to have camps as divisive as pro-life vs. pro-choice doesn't really feel right for this site. And I know it seems hypocritical for me to be saying this as I'm posting in a thread for one of these camps, but if we have just one side, then members of the other are likely to feel uncomfortable. I know my first reaction when I saw the pro-life thread (before noticing the pro-choice one) was along the lines of 'Is that really the kind of people that are participating this year?' I was relieved to see that that was not the case. But I'd rather neither board existed, honestly, so I (and others) wouldn't have had to feel that way in the first place. Fri, 14 Oct 2011 00:41:47 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_54042 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_54042 Bad_Ailuros I hte that idea. So many pro-lifers think all we want to see is bortions. Me? I wish we lived in a world where abortion wasn't necessary -- where no woman could get pregnant without her consent, where everyone was able to physically. mentally and emotionally able to handle parenthood or pregnancy -- but we don't live in that world. We live in a world where some people would rather die than give birth, where not everyone can handle it. My only "agenda" is that a woman is not forced into pregnancy or abortion -- by anyone, including the government. Fri, 14 Oct 2011 06:41:05 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_55735 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_55735 DemiReb I support pro-choice wholeheartedly. My mother was one of the women who fought for legalizing abortion in the Netherlands. One of her friends had taken quinine to induce abortion. A lot of women did that when abortion was still illegal. It's not a very good abortifacient, and it can cause renal failure and death. That's what happened to my mom's friend. Nobody in their right mind 'likes' an abortion, but each year about 70.000 women die from the complications of an illegal abortion. It's obvious that it is far better to legalize it, so that women can be treated safely in a hospital if they chose not to have the child. Legalizing abortion saves lives. Fri, 14 Oct 2011 11:21:46 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_58196 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_58196 DemiReb [quote]My only "agenda" is that a woman is not forced into pregnancy or abortion -- by anyone, including the government.[/quote]. An abortion law will prevent such a thing. Abortion is still technically illegal in the Netherlands, but there is an amendment to the law that a doctor will not be persected if a number of criteria is met. One of those criteria is that nobody may force a women to have an abortion. It must be her own choice and hers alone. Fri, 14 Oct 2011 11:30:57 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_58286 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_58286 IsBreaLiomCaife I should probably mention that I, personally, was adopted as an infant and came into my adoptive family at 3 months old, so I never knew or had any chance to bond with my biological family. The other people I've met who were adopted were mostly in the same situation as me. I only knew a few who were adopted as older kids, and they were mostly adopted by relatives. (aunt and uncle, grandparents, adult sibling, etc.) Fri, 14 Oct 2011 18:27:33 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_63273 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_63273 IsBreaLiomCaife I'm not afraid of it in general. I would never want to become pregnant because of the fact that I'm petite enough to be in the danger zone for broken bones, especially with my soon-to-be husband being much bigger than me. I do, however, think it's gross to look at. I don't find it attractive in any way. I've met women just a little bigger than me, including my father's brother's wife, who have had kids, and most of them have their figures back in 6-8 weeks (natural delivery and breastfeeding), but the look of pregnancy...just...no. I write about it all the time. It just comes up as part of life in a series that follows the same families for decades, but it's definitely not for me. Fri, 14 Oct 2011 18:32:25 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_63318 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_63318 IsBreaLiomCaife If you think that's bad, you should see the existing laws in Virginia. All new clinics and gynecologists' offices that carry out five or more abortions per year will have to buy (at their own expense) EKG machines, defibrillators, and the types of doors and hand-rails that hospitals have. They will also have to (at their own expense) train their staff to use these machines. Basically, it classifies gynecologists offices and clinics like Planned Parenthood with hospitals and emergency rooms, rather than with GPs, orthopedists, dentists, etc. It's not a problem for existing clinics, but it's a problem for any that want to open, renovate, or change locations. Also, any pharmacist in the state of Virginia can legally refuse to give you any form of birth control, the morning after pill, or an abortion pill. It's not so much of a problem in the big cities because if they tear your prescription, you can call your doctor and either have them phone it in elsewhere or pick a new one up, and you can always find another pharmacy. Out in the countryside, there might not be another pharmacy for 50+ miles. There are valid medical reasons to take it, such as severe PMS, PMDD, heavy bleeding to the point it interferes with your life or even safety, and irregular or very long periods. Some people don't seem to want to come to terms with that, and for the women who take it for one or more of these reasons, whether they also want to prevent pregnancy or not, coming off of their birth control or being denied their birth control could be potentially dangerous. Fri, 14 Oct 2011 18:44:20 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_63437 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_63437 Shiral We allow the Pro-life writers to have their own group without harassing them about their views. We have the right to expect the same courtesy from them. If they can't be polite, it's always possible to mind one's own business. Melissa Family management is best left to families, and Planned Parenthood really beats the UNplanned variety! Fri, 14 Oct 2011 18:45:30 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_63449 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_63449 Ophiucha Oh goodness, discussion of abortions in times when it is illegal just make me think of this one episode of Masters of Horror, "Imprint" if I recall correctly. I think it was directed by Takashi Miike, and it takes place in Japan - can't place a date on it, but I want to say 1870 or so - where the main girl's mother is an abortionist, and it is just disturbing and terrifying and thank goodness for modern medicine because AGH. Of all the episodes of that show (one had a woman sleeping with a zombie, and bits fell off when they shouldn't have), *that* was the one they couldn't show on TV. Fri, 14 Oct 2011 19:41:35 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_64060 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_64060 Cadaverine I read a blog post once by someone on twitter. Can't remember their name, but I'm sure you'll find it if you google "gold coathanger". She (or her teacher, I forget) wore one around her neck and people used to ask her about it. And one day this very old lady asked her about it, and she felt awkward because she didn't want to offend the woman, but she answered honestly anyway, and said it was a pendant representing pro-choice and women's rights, about not going back to the days of back-alley abortions. And the old woman patted her on the shoulder and said "thank you, dear. I lost my aunt to a coathanger." And I was all q.q Fri, 14 Oct 2011 19:46:58 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_64121 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_64121 IsBreaLiomCaife I also want to make another note for people: You don't have to be a feminist to be pro-choice. I'm an old-fashioned woman whose greatest joy in life is taking care of her man. He doesn't want kids. I don't want kids. He and I both find pregnancy disgusting. I would rather he make the decisions about where we live and what we spend money on, and I would rather chain myself to the stove and make dinner. He tried babysitting a child (not even a particularly young one), and he decided he never wanted his own and wouldn't consider adoption for at least another five years. (I'm not going to get into any "why" questions on the forum, since it always seems to get other people to start shouting.) You don't need to be a feminist. You can love to please and be subservient to your man and still be a pro-choice woman. You just have to find a man who doesn't have his heart set on having a huge family. Fri, 14 Oct 2011 20:31:21 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_64667 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_64667 Cadaverine Imo, you can be subservient to your man and still be a feminist... so long as you support other women's rights to make their own life-choices, and gender equality in society. What you do in your own home and how your own family functions is your business. Fri, 14 Oct 2011 20:45:53 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_64854 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_64854 littlehurricane Another passionately pro-choice writer reporting for duty! Fri, 14 Oct 2011 21:59:08 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_65600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_65600 Zookeeper One thing I've never understood about so-called "prolifers" is why saving a blastula is a holy mission, but it's okay to kill already-born adult OB-GYNS if you don't agree with what they, legally, do (and possibly orphaning already born babies). If you consider life to be sacred, why stop at a blastula? Why then isn't ALL life sacred? Why not get up in arms about already born babies who are being abused, or who suffer from disease, or who don't have enough to eat? Why home in on the welfare of a collection of cells so tiny you can't even see them, and not give a damn about anyone else? Sat, 15 Oct 2011 01:19:25 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_67212 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_67212 Phoenix Shoot, there are "pro-lifers" who don't have any discernible reluctance to engage in wars of aggression or to support the death penalty...and of course the *mother's* life is irrelevant in their little crusade. Whoever said they were more correctly called "anti-choice" than "pro-life" was dead on. Sat, 15 Oct 2011 02:02:51 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_67432 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_67432 myyearinlists THIS. Feminism isn't a movement that states All Women Need To Be Independent, it's about allowing all women to make their own <em>choices</em> in all aspects of life and moving past the current state of a patriarchal society that perpetuates rape culture, inequality in the workplace, objectification, the virgin/whore dichotomy, and, yes, government control of women's bodies and health. I'm sorry, it's just that as a rather ardent third-wave intersectional feminist (who's doing a double major in dramatic writing and women's studies at the moment), it really grinds my gears when people claim that "You don't have to be a feminist to support this clearly feminist issue, and I don't want to be one because I love my man!" Sat, 15 Oct 2011 09:26:48 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_69506 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_69506 restlesslilly Anyone who thinks it's okay to take away freedom of thought and choice from anyone else is off their rocker. I'm a pro-choice writer and mother. I, personally, don't think I could get an abortion without it being life threatening...but I sure as heck am not going to force my own personal choice on others. I'll do what I feel is right to do in my life, you do what's right for yours! :) Sat, 15 Oct 2011 09:37:13 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_69607 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_69607 Lectin Gaezat Passionate pro-choice checking in. Had a fantastic debate thread in the Teens forum in the week or so before the forum wipe - I think it was pretty productive. I'm not going to speak bad about anyone for not sharing the same views as me, but if they start to impose it on me, then you'll have a problem. Abortion is the individual's choice, in the same way that marriage is your individual's choice. No one forces someone to marry someone else (or at least in a civilized, democratic society that I do hope we all belong to), so it can't be said that we are having marriage forced upon on us. In the similar thread of thought - abortion is not forced upon others. It exists as an option. And I'm not a advocate of death. I'm an advocate of choice, I suppose. if people wish to tar and feather me - that's their pejorative. I'm probably not going to care. Sat, 15 Oct 2011 10:57:26 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_70330 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_70330 i am the moon This comment = win. Sat, 15 Oct 2011 17:16:16 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_74704 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_74704 Zookeeper Exactly why I say I am "pro-choice." If a woman decides that she doesn't want an abortion, ever, I'm not going to force her to have one. It's not my say. She chooses what to do with her body. So if I think that I, the government, and anybody else should opt out of choosing what another woman does with her womb, how does this make me a mass murderer of innocent little babies? If you don't want an abortion, don't have one. I'll stay out of your business; you stay out of mine. Sat, 15 Oct 2011 18:34:14 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_75502 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_75502 Inkling Dreams Now I just think that's wrong, the whole "pharmacists can refuse you any form of birth control" thing. That is just idiocy of it's highest form and whoever passed that law deserves a good smack to the back of the head Gibbs-style. I can understand a doctor not wanting to preform an abortion if it goes against one's morals, I can understand said doctor transferring the patient to another doctor to obtain said abortion. But I cannot, under any circumstance, understand why the hell a pharmacist should have the legal right to refuse anyone anything prescribed by a doctor. (unless ya know, there's a legit, totally valid reason like Medication X combined with Medication Q will kill you) It's not the damned pharmacist's right to tell people what to believe or do with their lives, so it sure as hell should not be their damn right to refuse people medication based on their personal belief. Who the hell gave pharmacists the right to make moral choices for other people? Sat, 15 Oct 2011 19:44:56 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_76230 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_76230 IsBreaLiomCaife Women got abortions before feminism existed. In my case, it's closer tied to a right-to-die stance that I share with my fiance, which is NOT in any way feminist and doesn't affect any gender or sexual identity specifically. To us, abortion rights and euthanasia rights are effectively the same thing. I would not consider myself happy if I were "liberated" or forced into a position where I couldn't just turn to a man and have him make decisions. I don't consider myself to be my fiance's equal, and I don't want to be his equal. I don't want that freedom at all because with that freedom comes a certain responsibility. I'd rather a man take that responsibility. Call it patriarchy, but I'd rather keep my decision-making to figuring out at what point this pork roast needs to come out of the oven and how much ground clove I should use to season it. To me, it's normal to go from parents to a husband. I am now in the age bracket when all of the women in my family end up marrying. My father approves of this man, and so we are getting married. It is that simple. We're old-fashioned people...very old-fashioned...like born several centuries too late old-fashioned. Yes, I base my beliefs off of his, and we are moderates, not liberals. He is not oppressive or abusive, but I've had exes who were physically, sexually, and emotionally abusive. And no...that doesn't make me want to be independent. Quite the opposite, in fact. Sat, 15 Oct 2011 20:07:28 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_76497 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_76497 Illa Scriptor Pro-choice and proud! Sun, 16 Oct 2011 00:16:29 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_78919 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_78919 Shiral With you all the way on that. I am pro-choice because I believe a woman should be trusted with making the decision that's right for her, and that she shouldn't ever have to explain or justify that to anyone except perhaps her spouse/partner--IF the relationship is one based on love and trust. I am not saying that abortions are wonderful experiences and every woman should have them--I just think it's best to prevent unwanted pregnancies in the first place. I realize accidents happen, and the ideal and the reality are sometimes miles apart. But it really, really infuriates me to have pharmacists assuming "they know best" and denying legal and prescribed contraception to women they don't even know because THEY, the pharmacist think that taking away a woman's access to contraception will somehow magically make abortion disappear from the face of the Earth. Now THAT'S an idiotic point of view. And totally nonsensical, patronizing and infuriating, to boot. If they don't like abortion, they should be passing out contraceptives on street corners! Melissa Sun, 16 Oct 2011 01:47:19 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_79508 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_79508 Shem-the-Penman This isn't just an ethical matter, it's a political one. Sex education, contraception and abortion <em>empower</em> women. So it's in the best interests of those who benefit from male dominance to limit female access to these things. And it's also in their interest to frame the debate as being just about the morality of a surgical procedure, and enlist religious people and like-minded moralists to demonize sexually active women. -Shem Sun, 16 Oct 2011 08:27:50 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_81439 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_81439 yoghurtelf I think it's really sad that you don't think you're equal. Can't we be different but equal? I totally agree that men and women ARE different. Deferring to your partner when making decisions is not a matter of equality or lack of. But yeah, I just think it's sad that you don't think you're equal and you're proud of that. Maybe I'm misunderstanding?!! Sun, 16 Oct 2011 22:18:13 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_91064 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_91064 yoghurtelf Very good point and I totally agree! Sun, 16 Oct 2011 22:18:40 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_91073 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_91073 Deebauch Thank you for starting this thread. Going by tumblr, people seem to think that poems and stories authored by fetuses are legitimate arguments--so it's totally central to any writing group. I have never been pregnant (that I know of, early miscarriages are hard to recognize as such) but if I were, I probably wouldn't solicit opinions on my WIP from the future kid, as literate as many anti-choice people like to pretend they are. Sun, 16 Oct 2011 22:59:27 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_91482 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_91482 cheesypeas well said Mon, 17 Oct 2011 00:32:53 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_92216 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_92216 littleoph [quote] I totally agree that men and women ARE different. [/quote] Then again, aren't all human beings different from one another? There must be men out there who hate having to make decisions and will always prefer to rely on someone else. Mon, 17 Oct 2011 03:06:46 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_92957 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_92957 mothgirl Glad it's not a debate thread, I know I've had a pretty intense and not necessarily pleasant experience with an abortion debate thread on here about two years ago... Teen feminist calling in! Hola, friends and allies, nice to join you. Mon, 17 Oct 2011 04:22:12 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_93289 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_93289 adorable fluffy kittens [quote]poems and stories authored by fetuses[/quote] Ooooooooh man. Aren't those usually so glurgy that you feel the need to go brush your teeth after reading one, anyway? Mon, 17 Oct 2011 09:59:22 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_95736 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_95736 Phoenix Poems and stories by fetuses? Gag me with a tire iron. Though perhaps the fact these had to be ghost-written for them might highlight the fact that they're not freakin' PEOPLE; they're tiny blobs of tissue which might or might not have the POTENTIAL to become people. I wonder, though--if I wrote a distressed poem and signed it "Granite," would "pro-lifers" accept that as evidence that we need to legislate the rights of rocks? Mon, 17 Oct 2011 17:20:44 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_101376 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_101376 lemming_the_lemming I read a blog post earlier today that gave one of the best arguments as to why abortion isn't murder I've ever read. Thought it made sense to put here: http://freethoughtblogs.com/alstefanelli/2011/10/17/abortion-is-not-murder/ Mon, 17 Oct 2011 17:32:35 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_101523 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_101523 IsBreaLiomCaife I don't see how it's sad or why someone would consider my position shameful, and inequality just feels more natural to both of us; we're both happy that way. He naturally fits into the role of providing and protecting, and him being in control all the time makes me feel safe and secure. It just feels right. Mon, 17 Oct 2011 18:19:22 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_102072 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_102072 littleoph Anyway, how's your NaNo doing? Ready yet? I'm not. I've still got plotholes the size of a small European nation. Tue, 18 Oct 2011 00:58:55 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_106419 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_106419 Cadaverine I have an idea, but no plot or characters really. So, trouble ;) Tue, 18 Oct 2011 01:16:11 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_106502 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_106502 Ophiucha I've got characters, a setting (I write fantasy), and... bits and pieces of a plot. I know my beginning, my middle, and my end - but everything connecting them is still a bit up in the air. Tue, 18 Oct 2011 01:59:48 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_106690 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_106690 cheesypeas I almost have a plot now! I'm so proud! I started out with only two characters and one scene... so I'd say I've made some progress :) It's weird not writing scifi this year though... but I might just learn something, stepping out of my comfort-zone like that! Tue, 18 Oct 2011 02:37:50 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_106847 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_106847 myyearinlists I don't think you're really getting it, though. None of us are trying to change the way you live. If being subservient to your man makes you happy, that's fine. But one <em>does</em> have to acknowledge that most abortion rights in the United States (at the very least) today were hard-won <em>by feminists</em> - of both genders. You don't have to be a card-carrying, bell hooks-reading, male gaze-deconstructing, theory-dissecting, privilege-unpacking feminist scholar in order to appreciate what they've done for us. You may not be a feminist yourself (although I still don't understand why you wouldn't be, if you don't like sexist oppression and exploitation on a worldwide scale), but to claim that women's health rights AREN'T a feminist issue seems oddly backward. Tue, 18 Oct 2011 04:51:10 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_107365 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_107365 yoghurtelf Well, I guess I'm just not clear on what you mean by 'inequality'. To me, that has implications of inferiority. Do you really think you're inferior to your husband?? I'm not saying that you should seize control &amp; make decisions yourself, that's not what this is about either. I just mean that you've both opted to play certain roles, and that's entirely cool, but...that doesn't mean you are inferior. And if believe you are, well yeah, I think that's sad. Tue, 18 Oct 2011 07:23:59 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_108189 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_108189 yoghurtelf They make me feel rather pukey! lol Tue, 18 Oct 2011 07:25:25 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_108202 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_108202 yoghurtelf YAY for teen feminists!! And I was talking with my man the other day about how you don't have to be a woman to be a feminist. You don't have to have a paid job to be a feminist. You don't have to do anything you don't want to do - you can STILL be a feminist! Tue, 18 Oct 2011 07:26:19 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_108207 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_108207 IsBreaLiomCaife Yes. I do believe that I'm his inferior. To me, it's nothing to be sad about. It's just...normal. It just works. (Technically, he won't be my husband for a little longer. We're having a civil ceremony at some point in the next couple of weeks. Family ceremony is next year, though.) Tue, 18 Oct 2011 10:46:03 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_109989 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_109989 IsBreaLiomCaife To me, health rights and death rights are (or should be) more generalized. To me, breast cancer screening and testicular cancer screening fit in the same group, even though they specifically affect different sexes. Similarly, abortion rights and the right to die are in the same group as each other. Forcing someone to have a child (or forcing them to have an abortion) is the same as forcing them to live when their wish is to die. To me, legalizing abortions is just a way to make them easier to obtain and safer, by way of regulation, but if I needed one, I would find a way to get one, whether it was legal or not. To me, guys staring at my chest or making sexual comments is just part of being a woman. I've been getting those since I was 11 or 12. I don't feel that it's oppressive or anything like that. (Generally rude, yes, but there's nothing that can be done about bad manners, just as you can't force someone to teach their child not to be a brat in public.) Tue, 18 Oct 2011 13:15:04 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_111712 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_111712 IsBreaLiomCaife At least they're not the size of a larger nation... Tue, 18 Oct 2011 13:15:49 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_111721 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_111721 IsBreaLiomCaife By the way, I do know that men can get breast cancer, but male breast cancer screenings aren't standard and are typically only done if there's a reason to be concerned or a family history. Tue, 18 Oct 2011 14:22:34 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_112838 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_112838 adorable fluffy kittens Plot holes the size of Liechtenstein wouldn't be all that bad, really. :) Plot holes the size of The Netherlands would probably require an altered state of consciousness to fix, though... Tue, 18 Oct 2011 14:42:27 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_113163 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_113163 adorable fluffy kittens Snail attack! (...I'm good at coming up with ridiculous ideas. Don't mind me.) Tue, 18 Oct 2011 14:44:01 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_113188 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_113188 Zookeeper Bits and pieces of my plot are coming together. Today I discovered my female character's name and the fact that my bad guy wears a toupee. Who knew? ;-) I really have to sit down and put these ideas together on paper. I really like having something to go by when I start writing. I may or may not use it. I may totally ignore it and go in another direction. But I like having something I can launch the book from. As for feminists, I've always thought of myself as a feminist, and I think I'm essentially equal to any man. I have a mind, skills, talents, and I don't see why I should let them go to waste just to prop up a man's ego. I do a lot of nontraditional things. I was trained as a chemist. I've studied martial arts. (I'm actually an aggressive fighter. I can corner a male martial artist and stand there pummeling him.) I do my own home repairs. I've done carpentry. But I also crochet, sew, quilt, bake, and cook, which are considered traditionally female. I think everyone should find out what their talents are and use them. Tue, 18 Oct 2011 15:33:16 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_113881 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_113881 wintertulip Exactly. If someone is pro-life and 100% vegan and they devote a large proportion of their time to improving or saving the lives of others, I can respect their opinion. Otherwise, they're nothing but a hypocrite who isn't worth giving the time of day to. Tue, 18 Oct 2011 15:44:14 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_114102 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_114102 adorable fluffy kittens Right. I can't think of a single activity I engage in because it is, on a societal level, "gendered". Whatever I do, I do either because it needs to be done or because I find it personally rewarding. That would be why it's so easy to switch from carpentry to knitting. Both rewarding, constructive activities, regardless of how they get "gendered" by society at large, no? (Right now I'm not operating at peak efficiency thanks to a horrible chest cold, though, so at the moment knitting is the more <em>feasible</em> activity; all I've gotta do is sit on the couch, prevent kittens from chewing through the yarn, and make sure I'm staying in pattern. Mentally engaging, but not physically taxing enough to send me into a horrific coughing spiral. CURSE YOU, RHINOVIRUS.) On a side note, I did attempt to teach my lovely spouse to knit, but he got frustrated with the learning curve and gave up before he could even complete a dishcloth. :( He gets similarly frustrated with drawing, carpentry, cooking... basically, if he can't CTRL-Z his mistakes, he's terrified of messing up. Nothing to do with his penis, everything to do with his perfectionism. Tue, 18 Oct 2011 16:39:56 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_115041 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_115041 gardenswing I think what people are saying is that you have to want to be your man's equal to be a feminist. I know a couple of women who happily choose to obey for non religious reasons - because that is truly what grants them fulfillment. But these women are also feminists, because they completely support the choice of each woman to find her own unique path to happiness. That's what feminism is about. Women (and men and genderqueer folk) should have the choice as to what kind of life they want. I'm not saying that you have to take on the identity of feminist yourself if you don't want to. What I'm saying is that obeying your husband doesn't make you not a feminist. There are plenty of women happily follow the leadership of their men but identify strongly as feminist, and believe that it's perfectly acceptable for other people to have different kinds of relationships including female-led relationships. Accepting diversity is, in my opinion, a fundamental element of feminism. Tue, 18 Oct 2011 21:25:46 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_119042 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_119042 adorable fluffy kittens Yep. I've got a friend who's the slave in an M/s relationship, and <em>she's still a feminist</em> because she's totally cool with all sorts of other relationship structures. Meanwhile, I'm IN one of those "female-dominated" relationships (well, that's how it appears from the outside, anyway... let's not get into the gender identity LOLWUT of my lovely (be-penised) spouse and I, that could take ages) and I'm cool with anyone who chooses a more 'traditional' role, just as long as it's clear that they're CHOOSING it. Not 100% consensual? I get pissy. Tue, 18 Oct 2011 21:48:59 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_119371 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_119371 gardenswing I'm with you on this. Also, in my above post, I meant to say "I think what people are saying is that you DON'T have to want to be your man's equal to be a feminist." Gah, my post doesn't seem to make sense the way it's written. Tue, 18 Oct 2011 22:13:52 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_119670 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_119670 adorable fluffy kittens Eh, typos happen, especially when NaNo's involved. I think most people will read what you meant, not what you accidentally typed. :) Tue, 18 Oct 2011 22:32:09 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_119884 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_119884 littleoph I think I've brought them down to the size of Luxembourg. They still have a few days to shrink to an acceptable size. Yesterday, I found out that one of my characters is a FtM transgender. In a Renaissance fantasy context. That'll be fun. :-) Wed, 19 Oct 2011 00:53:39 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_121251 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_121251 Jordan9 Pro-lifer chiming in here. Mods, I hope it's ok seeing as I'm answering a question that was raised. :D My purpose is to enlighten on this issue, not any sort of debate. @ Zookeeper We exist. It is sometimes called a "Consistent Life Ethic." http://www.consistent-life.org/ if you're passionate about opposing things like war (either in totality or against unjust war or aggressive war; I'm personally somewhere in between), capital punishment, racism, and poverty, (and most pro-choicers, in my experience, are) you might be interested in signing up for the newsletter, there on the site. It's just a little e-mail every once in a while with stories about current life issues, quotations pertaining to the preservation of human life and its inherent dignity, and so forth. I'm a Member/subscriber to CL, but nothing more, so for purposes of full disclosure, just allow me to say I have nothing to do with the site, nor am I speaking for anyone responsible for it. Also, I see a lot of folks submitting pro-choice arguments in here. That is, of course, fine, but I hope that if any of you are interested in employing those arguments in an actual discussion (as opposed to merely sharing them with those who need no further arguments in favour of the pro-choice viewpoint) that you won't hesitate to contact me (or indeed, any willing pro-lifer) to discuss further. I'm of the mind that, if we believe we have the truth (about abortion, about politics, about religion, etc., etc.), we should be willing to subject it to the most rugged scrutiny we can (within reason, of course... can't talk abortion for 20 hours a day or anything!) So in the spirit of that even-minded pursuit for truth, my nano-mail is open to any and all in this thread, and those that might come later! Happy writing, all, and see you at 50 000! - Jordan Wed, 19 Oct 2011 07:51:23 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_123972 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_123972 MurderDeathKill Is it cool if I'm both? Personally, I wouldn't want someone I was close to to get an abortion. But I would want her to CHOOSE life -- I would never want to tie her hands and FORCE her to do (what I think of as) the right thing*. I'm a christian, I believe in giving life a chance whenever you can (not sure about the whole "at conception" thing), yadda yadda yadda..... but dammit, I'm also an American, and I believe in everybody's right to disagree with everything I say. I for one refuse to use the law as a tool to promote my own morals. I believe every woman should have the right to choose. That's non-negotiable. I also hope (without passing judgment) that most women choose life. *Disclaimer -- I'm going on the assumption that this is MY hypothetical kid we're talking about. In my circumstances, life is the correct choice (near as anyone can forecast); I fully understand that other circumstances are OTHER, and by nature of being different the "right thing to do" is not necessarily the same. I in no way pass any judgment whatsoever on anybody; please don't get that impression. Wed, 19 Oct 2011 08:29:48 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_124410 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_124410 jazzi-bear On the subject of pro-"life"-ers (with the life in scare quotes as such): Did anyone else notice that Jackalope's display image is of a gun? Um. Wed, 19 Oct 2011 11:33:52 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_126773 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_126773 Anastasia If you aren't going to force a pregnant woman to stay pregnant and will accept that she might make the very difficult choice to have an abortion, you're pro-choice. The choice doesn't have to be abortion, the choice can be life too. It's a common misconception about us pro-choicers that we want people to choose to have abortions willy-nilly. I think there is a 99.99% agreement in pro-choice circles that birth control should be used if you don't want to have babies. We would rather prevent unplanned pregnancies so women didn't have to make choices about abortion. I wouldn't have an abortion unless my baby had a serious birth defect. I don't 'think it would be the right choice for me. However, I want other women to have the choice. Wed, 19 Oct 2011 11:48:28 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_127001 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_127001 gardenswing MDK, you sound pro-choice to me. Honestly, I've gone back on forth on my *personal* feelings on the subject. But I've always believed that women should make their own choices. Wed, 19 Oct 2011 12:35:15 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_127718 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_127718 darby Like a lot of people here, I wish these groups didn't have to exist on the NaNo forums, but as long as there's a anti-choice group, I'm glad there's a pro-choice one. This does raise the subject, however, of how awareness and social justice interact with taking part in NaNo. There are a lot of big things going on in the world right now, including some very regressive attacks on reproductive rights in the U.S. I'm someone who follows a lot of a news services and social justice blogs, and I'm also someone prone to diving into debates. I know that political and social news are probably going to be my main source of distraction during November, and while real life certainly takes precedence over fiction any day, I think I'm going to have to schedule out my news and debate time just as strictly as my writing time to keep from getting overwhelmed. Is anyone else planning on altering their news or blogging habits or political activities during November? Wed, 19 Oct 2011 12:46:28 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_127901 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_127901 beanza3 I'm pro-choice/anti-abortion. :D I'm odd. Essentially: politically, I'm pro-choice. Scientifically, fetus=/= baby, and there's a seperation between state and church. It's not even a question, it's logic. But I'd, personally, never abort a kid, but I won't look badly on someone else if they do. It's way more complicated then, "I hate kids, kill them ALL!!!!" O.o Wed, 19 Oct 2011 14:44:44 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_129862 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_129862 littlehurricane I hate the names "pro-choice" and "pro-life." They're propaganda in themselves. It makes it seem as if one side is anti-life and pro-abortions. Abortions are terrible and sad. I would never be PRO-abortion. I'm PRO life. But technically, since I believe there should be legal, regulated, and safe places for women to obtain abortions, I am "pro-choice." Horrible, horrible names for both sides. Wed, 19 Oct 2011 15:27:08 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_130587 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_130587 Noelle_Winters I've struggled with that myself. I believe that life is sacred, and abortion is a very sad event. I was raised in a pro-life household. However, I would never in a million years agree that making abortion illegal is the answer, nor would I ever look down on a woman who has had an abortion. I used to be into the whole pro-life thing...but then I just realized how hypocritical and useless the whole movement was. Instead of focusing on taking away the rights of women...focus on making birth control available...focus on making healthcare affordable so its not 1000x cheaper to get an abortion than to have a child...fix the adoption/fostering system to make it not a living hell...fix government trying to do stuff like defund WiC. Do you think the majority of pro-lifers support politicians that would make it easier to have a child, or raise a child? Nope. If the pro-life movement spent half the time spent actually FIXING problems that led to abortion instead of spending their time trying to take away the rights of women and trying to make abortion illegal....we would have drastically reduced the amount of abortions here. Until they stop believing women are nothing more than a freaking incubator, I will never set foot within a million miles of a pro-life group. (Obviously an exaggeration.) Also what angers me to no end is the absolute disregard for SCIENCE. Do you know how many pro-life people genuinely believe that there is never ever a time where you need to abort the child or risk losing the mother? Its ridiculous. And what's even sicker is there are a lot of people who believe the mother should die instead of get an abortion if those things happen. There is nothing "pro-life" about the pro-life movement. It's "pro-fetus-then-we-don't-give-a-sh!t-about-you-after-you're-born" movement. Wed, 19 Oct 2011 16:14:52 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_131394 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_131394 IsBreaLiomCaife It's just not for me for many, many reasons. (And we're non-religious.) Wed, 19 Oct 2011 17:25:46 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_132215 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_132215 beanza3 My question: do you think your human? Do you think you have rights, as a human? Not, whether you'd accept them or not, but do you have rights (to vote, to remain silent, to defend yourself, to sue someone who's hurt you in some way, to get the heck out of a room if you don't want to be there)? If you do, you're equal. You may be subservent. I could never be, but I'm not gonna preach or tell you how to live your life. It's your buisness. But you are equal. There are places where women aren't equal to men. In America, they once didn't (a slave counted for 3/5 of a person, but a women didn't even count for that? Seriously?). So, are you? Wed, 19 Oct 2011 18:22:38 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_133038 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_133038 adorable fluffy kittens I don't doubt it. One could probably write at least 50,000 words about the reasoning behind the personal life choices of any single person who has posted in this thread. Imagine how many novels we'd make combined... Humans. We're freaking complicated. Wed, 19 Oct 2011 18:24:03 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_133058 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_133058 IsBreaLiomCaife That would be an interesting bookshelf, at least. I'll agree with you on the "humans are complicated" count. Wed, 19 Oct 2011 18:30:46 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_133156 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_133156 adorable fluffy kittens Hrm. I don't think that she's trying to argue that her <em>legal</em> status is any less-than, just that within the bounds of her relationship she's ceded power. I also don't think she's trying to apply her own personal circumstances to any other women, or she'd have one hell of a problem with me. :) I've negotiated my way through similar arguments on other forums before. You can't make people identify as anything they don't want to identify as, no matter how accurate it may be; also, this is an area rife with semantic misunderstandings, and I'd hate to see the thread devolve. We all do agree on at least ONE thing, right? Wed, 19 Oct 2011 18:31:45 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_133179 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_133179 Inkling Dreams This is way off topic, but your comment on WIC sent me on a mental rant about food-stamps. I hate food-stamps with a passion, I work at a grocery store and I would sooner vote to kill food-stamps than I would the WIC program. Why? Because the WIC program makes sure that those using it get healthy food worth eating. Food-stamps? Yeah, you can buy anything you want with those shy of alcohol and tobacco. I love, love, love love love love love love the WIC program. It's so cool, the checks come and written directly on the check is exactly what you can purchase. Milk, eggs, fruits, vegetables, whole-grain cereals, whole-grain breads, peanut butter, all sorts of healthy foods. It's fantastic, because you know that those who are using WIC, particularly the children, are at least getting something healthy to eat. But I despise food-stamps and most of their users with the heat of a thousand suns. Why? Because people with food-stamps buy shit with it. All I ever see people buying with food-stamp cards seems like bags of chips, bags of candy, twelve-packs of soda, frozen dinners that I personally wouldn't even feed to my garbage disposal they are so freaking unhealthy not to mention crappy tasting. I've seen people buying wedding cakes on them! WEDDING CAKES. And baby-shower cakes! I even know of several gas stations that accept food-stamps to pay for the car wash! What the hell? Why the hell do my tax dollars get to be spent on someone's wedding cake or washing their car!? I'd be more than happy to keep the food-stamps around if they weren't so horribly abused. And I'm so sick of seeing people buying tons and tons of crap food, then buying beer on their own dime and whining when they have nothing to eat. Maybe, just maybe, if you would have used your food-stamp money to buy something worth eating in the first place you wouldn't have this problem. And would it kill you to spend that $30 towards a winter coat from Good Will for your kid instead of buying a bottle of whiskey? Sorry. Didn't mean to go on a rant there, but I love WIC and food-stamps irritate me because so many people abuse the system. I would wholly support a complete restructure of the food-stamp program that limits what you can buy to healthy foods like WIC does. Wed, 19 Oct 2011 19:08:41 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_133714 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_133714 youphoria Also bodily autonomy for people with uteri who don't identify as women. Wed, 19 Oct 2011 19:13:12 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_133778 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_133778 Leprechaun *clap* For clarification, that's for Noelle_Winters and Inkling Dreams, because you're both fantastic, amazing, brilliant people. That's all. Wed, 19 Oct 2011 20:03:29 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_134629 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_134629 Leprechaun Call me crazy, but the fact that we COULD all be "shoehorned" into Texas, and yet we're spread out all over the globe seems to indicate a SLIGHT problem. Overpopulation isn't really about population; it's about the food and space that population takes up. But that's just my two cents. Wed, 19 Oct 2011 20:23:40 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_134950 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=2#forum_thread_comment_134950 IsBreaLiomCaife I don't have much choice this year. I'm moving from one state to another before Election Day but after the deadline for registration, so I don't even have the option to vote. (Then again, it's a local year, and I haven't been able to follow anything local where I am, and I wouldn't know where I'd have to go down there...) But I don't blog, campaign, picket, or anything like that... Wed, 19 Oct 2011 20:59:35 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_135555 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_135555 IsBreaLiomCaife This is a rant I understand. If foodstamps worked more like Meals on Wheels or WIC, where they assess your need and give you what you need (Meals on Wheels) or a voucher for it (WIC), it wouldn't be such a problem. At the very least, certain items (cakes, candy, soda, potato chips, etc.) should be disallowed automatically, just like if someone gets the wrong type of item for a WIC check. By and large, there are seemingly three groups of people on food stamps: My mother worked in the city when I was in my early teens, and she frequently witnessed people in the grocery store there who were gang members and drug dealers using their foodstamps to buy $100 (or more) cakes, steak, and lobster. Then you have people who just don't have the mental capacity (due to mental illness or developmental disorders) to actually make the responsible decision. They're independent enough to live on their own, and they know they need to eat, but they don't have the capacity to choose produce, lean meats, and whole grains over potato chips, soda, and ice cream. Now, especially now, there are also people out there who are on foodstamps because they're settling in a new area, lost their job and are still searching, work but just don't make enough to make ends meet, had their retirement savings disappear, ended up widowed with children, etc. I've seen people buy perfectly normal, healthy food with their foodstamps, so not everyone is irresponsible with them. The first group needs to be stopped; the second group needs guidance; and the third group is who these programs were actually intended for. Wed, 19 Oct 2011 21:17:39 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_135823 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_135823 Zookeeper I remember when I was married and in my 20s. My husband was abusive and shiftless. He didn't like to work. He just wanted to spend his time with his honeys. I was in very poor health and didn't get enough to eat. My doctor told me, quite upfront, that if I got pregnant and tried to keep the baby, I would die. Even if that didn't happen, I knew that my husband would leave me as a welfare single mom. And my family was adamant that they wouldn't help or take me in. I was careful with my birth control, and I never did get pregnant, but if I did I would have had to have an abortion. Yet "prolifers" would tell me that if God meant for me to die, then I should die. So we have two scenarios here. I could have had an abortion, if it came to that, and lived. Or I could have gone the prolife route, and I AND THE FETUS would both die. It was apparent to me that "prolifers" didn't care about my life, my health, or my well-being. They cared about feeling morally right. And if the path of righteousness was paved with the bodies of dead women (and their blastulas, who died with them), so be it. Wed, 19 Oct 2011 22:27:27 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_136772 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_136772 Strawberry.Suite I have seriously got to stop reading pro-death drivel. It's such crap and they're such awful people. Fetuses are not people. Why should anyone have to give up their entire life, figuratively or literally, for a cluster of cells that may or may not even develop into anything bigger than the question mark at the end of this sentence? If I got pregnant tonight and was forced to carry the baby to term, I would have to give up my education, my home, my future career, and everything else I've ever dreamed of, all while wondering whether or not the whole process would kill me. How is it "pro-life" to threaten -my- life every time I have sex? Thu, 20 Oct 2011 00:49:00 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_138065 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_138065 Strawberry.Suite Um. No. Just ... no. For starters, fresh food is a luxury that people with privilege take for granted. Some people don't have access to it. In some places, it's prohibitively expensive. In my city, your dollar goes farther at McDonalds than it does at the local grocery store. Fresh, healthy food is an ideal that is not attainable for everyone. Also, people buying things like wedding cakes on food stamps? They save them up. They sacrifice elsewhere. I have a hard time believing that someone gets their food stamps for the month and thinks, 'I'm going to go out and buy myself a wedding cake just for the hell of it.' Or, you know what? Maybe they do! That's their prerogative--you know, because they're -human beings-. Yes, there are some people who don't use the system as it was intended, but this line of thinking leads to punishing the majority for the actions of the minority. It decides what other people deserve to have. How does someone earn the right to spend their own money on things they enjoy? (And yes, once they get their food stamps, it is -their- money. Isn't that the whole point? It's not a loan.) Accepting assistance when it is needed is not lazy. It is responsible. And let's not forget that we're all here because we resent other people thinking they can make decisions for us. Thu, 20 Oct 2011 01:16:03 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_138229 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_138229 Cadaverine Not to mention your body, and not just for nine months. There are permanent changes and physical problems down the line. Thu, 20 Oct 2011 03:49:27 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_138840 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_138840 poi_son_joy This rant is incredibly classist. Like, sickeningly so. So, what, if it's cheaper for someone to spend a little of their food stamps on unhealthy food instead of spending a lot more of them on healthier food, or if the healthier food is just not available to them (look up the term "food desert" sometime!), they shouldn't get to make that choice? When a person is poor to the point that they need food stamps, they're not allowed to treat themselves to anything? Not allowed to get married or have baby showers? And I highly doubt any car washes "let people use food stamps" to wash their cars. I worked at a gas station, and you know what? If it isn't something food stamps were supposed to cover, it is LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE to use them for it. Flat-out impossible. Can't use it on gas, lottery tickets, alcohol, cigarettes, hot food, or milkshakes. This wasn't due to store policy or us deciding to follow the food stamp rules, it flat-out would not work even if we wanted it to. I'm not even going to get into the judgmental attitude towards people who are very possibly alcoholics. Which is, you know, an addiction, and not something that's easy to just stop. You know what? Once you put money into the system, they're not YOUR TAX DOLLAHS anymore. Once people get their food stamp funds, it is THEIR MONEY. This shouldn't be hard to understand. So if you're judging people spending THEIR food stamps -- as in, it belongs to them, which means it's none of your business what they spend it on -- you'd better be judging anyone spending "their own money" on the same things. Just because someone's poor doesn't mean they should know their place and not be allowed to enjoy some junk food, or steak and lobster, or freaking celebratory cakes for special occasions if they feel like it. They're people too. Thu, 20 Oct 2011 06:27:08 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_139697 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_139697 poi_son_joy It's not pro-life. One of the gross parts is that a lot of pro-life rhetoric turns into shaming and controlling women as much as they can. If you're a woman, you need to just keep your legs closed (you hussy) or you should be prepared to carry a baby to term, no matter what that would mean for your life. Of course, it's not the man's fault, and they're not going to shame HIM if he walks out (at least not to nearly the same degree), but god forbid the woman have any rights once there's a fetus growing in there. Never mind the potential physical, emotional, or psychological complications, never mind the fact that birth can be incredibly dangerous, never mind (as you said) that some pregnancies just aren't viable, never mind that it may ruin the woman's life, never mind that putting a baby into the adoption system is not a great option for the baby (especially if the baby isn't white). Forget that, when you look at the percentages of pregnant women dying, the MOST COMMON cause of death is murder. Forget that, when abortion was illegal, a LOT of women died from unsafe, back-alley abortions or attempts to cause themselves to miscarry. Ignore that most of the people arguing against abortion also argue against most, if not all, forms of birth control, and many support abstinence-only education, so they have no interest in helping prevent unwanted pregnancies (which, hey, would lower the number of abortions!). And once the kid's actually born? Well, all the support disappears then, and the woman is shameful if she needs any assistance -- if she didn't want a kid she should have kept her legs closed! -- and they have no problem with punishing the child as well as the mother. It's not pro-life. As Noelle_Winters said above, it's pro-fetus-then-we-don't-give-a-sh!t-about-you-after-you're-born. I can't think of ANY way that it isn't about punishing women, whether the people on the anti-choice side are fully cognizant of that or not. (NOTE: Not only women can get pregnant, let me just add that. But let's face it, a LOT of this stems from sexism and the belief that women are only good as breeding stock; we do need to acknowledge that trans* people can get pregnant BUT it's important to remember that this stems from misogyny, I think.) Thu, 20 Oct 2011 06:40:35 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_139766 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_139766 cheesypeas THIS Thu, 20 Oct 2011 08:22:05 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_140632 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_140632 IsBreaLiomCaife We aren't rich. My fiance is an enlisted man in the military, with the low salary that entails, and I happen to be allergic to nearly every fast food and pre-prepared food out there because of the preservatives, dyes, and sweeteners, so I have to eat healthier foods, even on a limited budget. It's either that or live with a permanent case of hives and other complications. It can be done. My mother stayed home when I was small, so we didn't have much money when I was little, and we didn't live on Spaghetti-Os, Kraft mac-and-cheese, and McDonalds. She's the one who taught me how to eat well and on very little money. Prices have gone up since then, but my fiance and I (who probably would qualify for aid but elect not to take it) manage on a very limited grocery budget. And what I was referring to were gang members and drug dealers who pay cash (in $100 bills) for their groceries and buy lobster and cakes on their food stamps while wearing designer jeans and enormous gold jewelry. Logically, if you have the money for brand new designer clothes and gold jewelry and pay for your regular groceries with a wad of $100 bills, you shouldn't even be on food stamps, but because it's not all legal income, the government doesn't "see" it. Thu, 20 Oct 2011 10:53:44 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_142370 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_142370 Strawberry.Suite Not everyone is you. Not all food stamp users are drug dealers. The rant is still classist. Thu, 20 Oct 2011 11:18:52 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_142665 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_142665 poi_son_joy And my family is actually making too much money to even be on food stamps. We can't afford healthy shit constantly it's more expensive and my mom has a hard enough time paying bills AND buying groceries. And sometimes we decide we want a McDonalds chicken sandwich or a pack of cookies because, hey, we deserve a treat every now and then and it makes us happy. We have that right and shouldn't be shamed for it. And people who are on food stamps don't suddenly lose that right, especially since, again, as soon as they get the food stamps, it's their money. Gang members and drug dealers are literally doing illegal shit and are far from the common example. They do need to be stopped, but... that would be accomplished by cracking down on them when it's found that they're doing illegal things, not limiting what innocent people (ie most people on food stamps) can spend their food stamps on. I also wasn't responding directly to you, but to Inkling Dreams, whose rant was even more classist than yours. But to point out the problems with specific things you said: "At the very least, certain items (cakes, candy, soda, potato chips, etc.) should be disallowed automatically" No. People who need food stamps shouldn't be denied purchasing treats just because YOU don't approve. Again, the food stamps are theirs, and they should be able to spend it on what they want. They have just as much right to buy those things as anyone else. "Then you have people who just don't have the mental capacity (due to mental illness or developmental disorders) to actually make the responsible decision. They're independent enough to live on their own, and they know they need to eat, but they don't have the capacity to choose produce, lean meats, and whole grains over potato chips, soda, and ice cream." This is kiiinda ableist, just saying. And just because someone is buying chips, soda, and ice cream sometimes doesn't mean they aren't also buying, you know, actual produce and meals. "I've seen people buy perfectly normal, healthy food with their foodstamps, so not everyone is irresponsible with them." What the heck is "perfectly normal" food supposed to even mean? Food is food. You might not like it, but McDonalds is food. Cookies are food. You eat them, they are nourishing and make you less hungry, they are perfectly food. Look, if you're concerned with people's health across the board and wish everyone in the world would eat healthy and stop eating junk, fine. Trying to make it so people who are forced to be on food stamps or other assistance are NOT ALLOWED to buy the things that other people are able to buy, just because you disapprove of them eating them? That's literally punishing them for being poor. That's why it's classist. Try to educate people to eat healthier, but if they decide to turn around and get some fast food or Spaghetti-Os or cake anyway, you don't get to tell some of them that they aren't allowed to do that just because they're on food stamps. That's bull. Thu, 20 Oct 2011 11:36:09 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_142859 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_142859 IsBreaLiomCaife I never said all food stamp users are drug dealers. I'm saying that people who are drug dealers shouldn't be allowed food stamps when it's obvious that they have enough money for designer clothes and a Mercedes. Thu, 20 Oct 2011 15:25:15 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_146150 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_146150 Strawberry.Suite And that's what we call abusing the system. But restricting -all- food stamp users' purchases because of a few drug dealers is cruel and unusual. That is what we are trying to get at here. Thu, 20 Oct 2011 15:49:58 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_146530 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_146530 IsBreaLiomCaife What you call abelist is actually a specific example of a relative of mine. She's bipolar and diabetic, and she literally cannot choose healthy food when she's manic. She qualifies for Meals on Wheels, which would give her a balanced plan for diabetes and eliminate the need for someone to drive her to the store all the time, especially when she can't plan ahead and forgets that she needs to buy more than two days' worth, but it would decrease the amount she gets for food stamps. She refuses to sign up for Meals on Wheels because (and yes, this is literally her reason) she doesn't want to have her food stamps decrease because she wants to get ice cream, chips, and soda and nothing else to eat. Which, for a diabetic, is extremely dangerous as a long-term diet, to the point of basically being suicide-by-food. THAT is what I mean by people who need guidance. There's also a big difference between a treat sometimes and literally buying nothing but junk. I grew up in an area where they actually did consider taxing all junk food at one point. It never materialized into anything, but the debate continues. The funny part is that the current system considers bubblegum to be an essential item, but it doesn't consider soap essential. Thu, 20 Oct 2011 15:59:27 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_146708 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_146708 Strawberry.Suite It sounds like your relative could use some help, but that's not the responsibility of the food stamp program. That's another area entirely. On junk food: again, the point is that it's still their choice. If they want to fill themselves up with nothing but crap, then that's their prerogative. People using cash to buy food make that choice all the time. Thu, 20 Oct 2011 16:13:41 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_146921 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_146921 msmerymac Logistically speaking, giving "personhood" to fetii (?) creates a whole set of legal headaches. Two people cannot have a right to the same body. Would pregnant women be legally required to abstain from alcohol and tobacco, to exercise, to eat right, to take vitamins? Would EVERY woman in her childbearing years be required to do those things, a la The Handmaid's Tale? Would all miscarriages be investigated the way any death of unknown origin is investigated? Would doctors be required to save both the fetus and the mother? What if only one could be saved? Thu, 20 Oct 2011 17:43:09 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_148182 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_148182 msmerymac I'm writing historical fiction, and this thread has created a plot bunny for me... Thu, 20 Oct 2011 17:44:15 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_148200 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_148200 IsBreaLiomCaife Personally, I'd like to see them use the tax initiative. What they wanted to do in that area was to add the regular state sales tax to sodas, juice drinks (things like Kool Aid, Hawaiian Punch, and sugar water, not Juicy Juice or Motts or things like that), potato chips, candy, and gum, which are currently listed as food items, therefore essentials not liable to tax. (And this is where the "soap is a non-essential item, according to the state" comes into play. They would've given junk food the same tax rate as soap and toothpaste. In this area, any taxed item can't be bought with a food stamp card, meaning that if you're on food stamps and want to buy soap, you have to either have the cash allowance part of the card as well or have to buy it with another method, such as cash. If they were to tax junk food, it would have worked the same way, meaning that it wouldn't come out of the food allotment. It could come out of the cash allotment instead.) The tax was proposed to subsidize healthy eating initiatives, programs designed to make healthy food affordable and more accessible, and programs like WIC and Meals on Wheels. It never got debated because the time was taken up with road issues, snow removal, and the ever-present debate on the restrictions on alcohol sales that get debated and voted on every 2-3 years that always ends with no change to the old law, despite taking over a month to debate every time... But this is what I was hoping would have been debated and gone into law because it was designed in a way to make green beans cheaper and lollipops more expensive, making it easier for people to afford healthy food. Thu, 20 Oct 2011 18:45:50 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_149120 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_149120 Dragonchilde <strong>Folks, I've already made it very clear on the initial post in this thread that this thread was started to be a place for Pro-Choice writers to gather, and it is not intended to be a debate thread. IF you would like to debate another subject, please start a different thread. Thanks! Also remember that all communications need to be respectful, even when you are disagreeing. Heated discussion is fine, but please do not let it cross the line into abusiveness.</strong> Thu, 20 Oct 2011 19:02:05 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_149363 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_149363 Cadaverine So *anyway*, to get things a bit back on-topic, as much as we have a topic, I would like to discuss my novel. You see, there is a post-apocalyptic world where good contraceptives are hard to come by (as they ran out pretty quick, as you could imagine). There are no doctors as they pretty much all died in the pandemic. People are basically left with diaphragms and no spermicide, resulting in reasonably high failure rates (wiki says it would be around 10 to even as much as 40%). So, I am contemplating possible birth rates, and whether I will have a character use an abortifacient (possibly a herbal concoction of some kind). It's just an idea at this point, but it's something I'm turning over in my mind as a minor crisis sort of plot point. Thu, 20 Oct 2011 21:35:07 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_151507 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_151507 IsBreaLiomCaife I'm not sure what you have for a transportation system and how advanced or fast it is, but you could possibly use geographically disparate growing zones for the herbs in question as a physical challenge in obtaining one. (At least until they come up with some type of greenhouse cultivation system for it. Then you could possibly deal with the need to grow food vs. the need to grow abortifacients.) Thu, 20 Oct 2011 22:23:48 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_152112 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_152112 Cadaverine Haha, interesting idea! Thanks! Fri, 21 Oct 2011 01:48:40 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_153674 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_153674 Deebauch Ah, but filling in the plotholes is how you pad that word count! I'm writing the second book of the story from last year's Nano. So I'm sitting here, thinking I've got it figured out, impatient to write certain plot points, but expecting to hit the wall somewhere around the 12th. Good luck all :) Fri, 21 Oct 2011 10:35:57 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_157148 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_157148 Deebauch Glurgy. Immediate steal right there. Fri, 21 Oct 2011 10:36:19 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_157150 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_157150 Deebauch I'm the same way, but knitting's great because you can yank out the offending stitch. Fri, 21 Oct 2011 10:37:12 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_157160 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=3#forum_thread_comment_157160 Deebauch Well, it's crap, isn't it? Those are labels for a political debate: Should abortions be legal? I can't think of another issue where people apply "Pro" or "anti" to their personal lives, rather they discuss it with more nuance. The blurring of the line between our personal feelings and what we think the law should say is what keeps this BS train rolling. Fri, 21 Oct 2011 10:40:12 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_157191 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_157191 Ophiucha Herbal concoctions can be pretty tricky - either they run the risk of killing you along with the fetus, or they're about as effective as crossing your fingers and hoping you just happen to miscarry. I'm guessing it's sci-fi, so we can say they've developed just the right combination of herbs, but I'd still say it's worth considering the risks. What is the success rate (not just in keeping them alive, but in aborting/miscarrying)? Some methods won't work after a time - some of the safer ones work better as a "morning after pill" of sorts, whereas others need to be done for a couple of months to be effective, and won't be effective after three or four months. And ectopic pregnancies are, for lack of a better word, potentially resistant to certain methods, and without doctors or medical equipment... yeah, that'd be fun. Just some things to consider. :) I wrote a story a couple of years back where a young woman, definitely too young and not in a position to become a mother, started having sex and her brother - the "team cook" - started making her tansy tea. Let me avoid having to state outright anything about this world's birth control, but addressed the problem if anyone cared to complain. Sat, 22 Oct 2011 06:57:01 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_168645 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_168645 gardenswing How believable would it be to have readily available thermometers in your world? Could fertility awareness method be used as a prevention method? More info here, if you're unfamiliar: http://www.fwhc.org/birth-control/fam.htm Sun, 23 Oct 2011 00:13:23 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_179953 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_179953 gardenswing So I'm going back and forth between two stories for november. One is a fantasy story which explores gender roles. The other deals with the issue of an unplanned pregnancy in a fantasy setting. In the second story, it's important to the plot that the FMC ends up keeping the unplanned pregnancy. (Actually that *is* the plot.) In her mind, abortion is something she would want to avoid unless absolutely necessary. I think this will be interesting to explore. I think she grew up pro-life by default, but this experience will help her become pro-choice, even though she personally chooses to keep the pregnancy. Sun, 23 Oct 2011 00:16:37 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_179977 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_179977 hmckin20 Prochoice! :D Sun, 23 Oct 2011 03:43:53 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_181096 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_181096 ohmynoti I wrote a short story about an abortion <a href="http://figment.com/books/56912-Recoverup" rel="nofollow">which is here if you wanna read it</a>. The character in that story is actually the protagonist of this year's nano a few years earlier. In the nano she's running around with the baby she *did* decide to carry to term. I'm all for choice going both ways. Also, I want to tell a story about parenthood in an apocalyptic setting. Mon, 24 Oct 2011 00:12:38 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_194405 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_194405 Cadaverine Pet peeve: "I'm not a jerk. I know how to treat a girl." Can't people just know how to be respectful of others, and polite in general? Why different treatment for that segment of the population with a vagina? "How to treat a girl" is as a person. Not some porcelain thing on a pedestal. Tue, 25 Oct 2011 03:35:14 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_212374 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_212374 wintertulip I like your story. I did get the impression that the character was part of a larger piece of work, that there was some character development that had gone on elsewhere that we didn't get to see in the story, but it also works as a snippet. Her opinion towards abortion (in the story) is somewhat like mine - it's just something that needs to be done in the case of pregnancy, and then get back on the bus and on with your day. Tue, 25 Oct 2011 04:21:50 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_212676 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_212676 Deebauch Did you all hear that the UN put out a report stating that no UN state should restrict anyone's bodily autonomy? Good to know the world hasn't gone entirely crazy. Also, the draconian restrictions in Kansas are apparently getting scaled back. Sat, 29 Oct 2011 09:39:55 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_281154 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_281154 Ophiucha Yes, I heard. I don't suppose it will bring about much change (very few people seem to take the UN seriously), but I can hope it sets an example for any countries or states that are still on the fence. Sat, 29 Oct 2011 13:12:38 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_284511 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_284511 aizjanika Good idea. :-) Sun, 30 Oct 2011 22:38:30 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_313959 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_313959 Kathelyne I am pro-choice/pro-life. Just as not all pro-choicers are pro-abortion in the way you stated ("yay, lets kill babies), it doesn't mean all pro-lifers are anti-choice! I actually don't like the terms "pro-life" and "pro-choice" as they aren't actually opposites, so if anything I prefer to say I am pro-choice but anti-abortion. Pro-choice because it should be the pregnant woman's decision (anti-choice is where the choice is taken away from the woman, this would bean the chooser (ie government) could force a woman to undergo an abortion or take extreme measures to ensure she doesn't have one. ) Anti-abortion because I don't think abortion is always a good thing and should only be considered in certin circumstances. Pro abortion for me is where abortion is a fine thing, not in a "yay! kill the babies!" way but considered like the oral contraceptive, any woman should have the right to have access to it at any time. I have nothing against people who are pro-abortion, being pro-choice it means I think they have the right to choose their opinion on any matter, including abortion! Can we edit posts yet? It might be nice if we can to edit the forst post and state if only pro-choice/pro-abortionists are allowed or pro-choice/anti-abortionists are too because to be honest I find the term "pro-choice" confusing as somtimes it doesn't include all pro-choicers. Mon, 31 Oct 2011 01:32:10 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_316033 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_316033 Deebauch I'm just happy that it represents a statement of support for a basic right that is nowhere near as obvious as it should be. Mon, 31 Oct 2011 07:08:53 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_319727 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_319727 Strawberry.Suite I was also very happy with the UN decree. Seriously, if you don't like abortions, don't get one. It's literally as easy as that. Why is that so hard to swallow? Mon, 31 Oct 2011 14:58:32 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_330955 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_330955 Phoenix Some folks just gotta be in other peoples' business, I suppose. Mon, 31 Oct 2011 17:48:51 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_335450 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_335450 Bramblepath I'm on the school's creative writing magazine editorial team. Yesterday we received a poem condemning abortion. (I wanted to post it online, then realised that since it's not mine it wouldn't be right.) Basically, after a few lines of extreme gender stereotypes ("she could be...", "he could be..."), the author goes on to emphasise how it’s “Alive” and abortion is “Killing” ("Child Killing", "may as well just take a knife and kill it"), and then repeats that “you’ll be Sorry” and “you’ll Regret it”. It disgusts me, especially since it went through one (or two) teachers first. It is not going to be published if I can help it. (But then I think about how I don’t support censorship and maybe I’m letting my personal viewpoint affect what the public gets to read :/ But god it pisses me off.) Wed, 02 Nov 2011 10:42:02 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_392896 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_392896 wintertulip Could you publish it alongside either a response showing the opposite viewpoint, or some statistics showing that most women don't actually regret having an abortion, etc? That way you're not censoring, but you're not allowing someone's viewpoint to be presented as fact. Wed, 02 Nov 2011 12:10:19 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_395557 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_395557 wintertulip Interesting. The topic seems to be cropping up in my nano too. One (possibly two) of my characters is going to get an abortion, whereas another is going to be denied one (that part will be happening 40ish years ago somewhere in Asia, so that might explain why she's not able to get one? How do I research out-of-date abortion laws of other countries??) and she ends up resenting and being cruel to her kids. Abusive parents were already a key part of my plot, so putting that particular plot bunny in makes sense. Wed, 02 Nov 2011 12:16:12 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_395717 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_395717 kitty-wake Well, I may as well state my affilation when it comes to women's reproductive rights. The Nadine Dorries thing this summer gave me a bit of a fright! Wed, 02 Nov 2011 18:46:26 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_409382 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_409382 Strawberry.Suite Cries of censorship, IMO, don't apply when publishing something could prove harmful to people. Carrying a pregancy to term is a decision that should be made based on fact, not someone's crappy poem, especially when the target readership is so young. And it doesn't sound like it has any literary merit anyway. I'd trash it. Fri, 04 Nov 2011 17:49:36 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_474611 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_474611 Bramblepath I don't think I'm allowed to do that. I have, however, considered writing a pro-choice poem and publishing that alongside :P Fri, 04 Nov 2011 20:22:38 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_478311 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_478311 muses_daughter I think that this is an important area of a woman's life to write about. It seems like it gets so easily dumbed down, or over dramatized. But having choices is such an important part of being a fully realized human being. I also don't like the current trend of making "choice" only mean the choice of terminating or carrying a pregnancy. For me, to be pro-choice is to act consciously and to be free to act consciously in every spectrum of sexuality and reproductive potential. To have the freedom to choose, means that there are varieties of choices and outcomes. Muses Daughter Fri, 04 Nov 2011 21:19:40 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_480236 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_480236 hotsoftlight Yay, this is awesome. :) Sat, 05 Nov 2011 17:46:28 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_504041 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=1#forum_thread_comment_504041 Phoenix Whew! Even in seriously anti-abortion Mississippi they couldn't get the "personhood" amendment passed. I'm sleeping easier. (http://edition.cnn.com/2011/11/09/politics/mississippi-election/) Though not *much* easier... Wed, 09 Nov 2011 14:52:31 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_603322 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_603322 wintertulip I'm sleeping a lot less easy, knowing that there are people out there who think that a law that would have not only outlawed all abortion, forcing women to risk their lives carrying pregnancies to term, but also threatened to turn every miscarriage into a criminal investigation, put an end to IVF and embryo research, and put a question mark over the legality of certain types of contraception, could possibly be a good idea. Some pro-life people really don't think things through. Wed, 09 Nov 2011 18:17:40 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_607245 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_607245 Phoenix I remember what it was like to live in the US before Roe v. Wade; I'm both happy to live now and unsurprised that the "godly" are still trying to roll back the clock. Sat, 12 Nov 2011 15:10:10 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_662013 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_662013 wintertulip Aren't you guys supposed to have something in the constitution about the separation of church and state? It's amazing how these anti-abortionists are so keen to disregard that when they're trying to control people. Sat, 12 Nov 2011 15:16:41 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_662133 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_662133 Strawberry.Suite I really, really wonder what the founding fathers would have to say about modern-day America and its politics. I can't imagine it would be pretty. Sat, 12 Nov 2011 19:53:29 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_666870 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_666870 LDRobwell Pro choice! Sat, 12 Nov 2011 23:21:57 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_670431 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_670431 Strawberry.Suite Loving the argument that pro-choicers 'just don't know enough about biology' to understand that fetuses are human. a) I'm a biology major; b) nobody's saying they're not. There's a difference between 'human' and 'a human.' Sun, 13 Nov 2011 09:01:28 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_674642 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_674642 wintertulip IMO, the "how human is a fetus" argument misses the point. I would still support the right to abort even if fetuses could be shown to have all the mental capacity of an adult human. No-one should ever be forced to let another person use their body, even if denying it would result in that person's death. We don't require people to donate blood, bone marrow, or organs - even after death - to keep other people alive. Why is it different when the organ in question is a uterus, and the "person" in question is an embryo? Some things are more sacred than life, and consent is one of them. It makes me so angry to think that the rights of a dead person are more respected in our society than those of a pregnant woman. Sun, 13 Nov 2011 10:35:38 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_675303 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_675303 DemiReb Orthodox religions abuse people from a very early age. They are told that playing with their genitals is a 'sin'. They are not free to explore their sexual feelings and identity. Instead feelings of guilt and shame are forced upon them. Thereby another person with more power takes control over very private bodyparts, which is nothing less than sexual abuse even if nobody ever touches the child in inappropriate places. More importantly, they learn that it is 'moral' to tell somebody else what they should and shouldn't do with their reproductive organs. What bothers me most of all is that orthodox "pro-life" religions authorize outright abuse. Sun, 13 Nov 2011 11:30:39 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_675763 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_675763 restlesslilly So true! Sun, 13 Nov 2011 14:30:45 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_677703 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_677703 Phoenix [quote=Strawberry.Suite] Loving the argument that pro-choicers 'just don't know enough about biology' to understand that fetuses are human. a) I'm a biology major; b) nobody's saying they're not. There's a difference between 'human' and 'a human.' [/quote] No shit. My partner is an MD, and she rolls her eyes every time the "pro-lifers" start up. But winterrtulip is correct; the rights of the actual, living woman trump the "rights" of the potential person. And seriously, guys--we've already *got* way too many people; better to thin the herd when they're protoplasmic blobs than to starve them to death as children or slaughter them in wars. Sun, 13 Nov 2011 15:36:23 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_678909 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_678909 Shem-the-Penman Since the souls of dead blastocysts go straight to heaven, you'd think Christians would look more kindly on the whole abortion thing. There's just no pleasing some people. -Shem Tue, 15 Nov 2011 10:32:04 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_709090 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_709090 Phoenix Ain't it the truth! I do wonder if they spend a boatload of time praying for the 80% of fertilized eggs--"persons" by their definition--that spontaneously abort. It's a miracle that they're not prosecuting those "mothers"... Tue, 15 Nov 2011 14:50:41 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_712509 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_712509 Unit7 If I were to pick a side, I'd have to say pro choice. But because I am a man I believe i have no actual say in whether it should be legal or illegal. The only unlikely situation where I can think that I may have that burden is if my wife was in a coma and it fell to me to decide. Other then that rare chance, why should a guy like me even have a say in it whether its legal or not? Last I checked its not like I can force my girlfriend/wife to get an abortion. I also do not have the final say as to whether she keeps it or not. For me this is an issue that women should be the only ones who can decide whether or not abortion is legal or illegal. For the most part I also believe that men in general shouldn't have a say in whether its legal or illegal. Mostly because... well what rights do we have to determine what a woman does or does not do with their own bodies and what develops in them? But like I said. If I had to pick a side it be pro choice... because that way it would be their choice. Perhaps I am just a coward and trying to justify not taking a side. If that is the case then so be it. Tue, 15 Nov 2011 23:42:39 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_720470 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_720470 wintertulip I don't think that's cowardly. You don't need to have an opinion over whether abortion would be the right choice for you, because it's not a choice you'll ever have to make. As for abortion in the case of other people, you do have an opinion, which is that it's their business to decide. That's the whole point of the pro-choice movement. :) "For me this is an issue that women should be the only ones who can decide whether or not abortion is legal or illegal." Personally, I would be just as angered by an anti-abortion law that was voted in by an all-woman group than one that was passed by a man or a mixed group. One woman dictating what another woman can do with her body is every bit as wrong as a man doing that. For that reason, I think abortion should be legal; that way every individual can make her own decision. Wed, 16 Nov 2011 11:58:15 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_726275 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_726275 Kaydon_the_dinosaur Grew up believing all the typical pro-life arguments until one day in high school I read an article in a science magazine entitled "When does viable life begin?". I remember thinking "well, if it is true that around 70% of zygotes and pregnancies are naturally aborted then my god must be the biggest abortionist of all time." And that confused me for awhile but it really helped me be able to support a good friend who was considering getting an abortion a few months later instead of condemning her or lecturing her about how "OMG, but it's a baby!". Today, I am 100% pro-choice. Thanks science. Wed, 16 Nov 2011 13:31:29 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_727523 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_727523 littleoph Shem, may I quote you? Thu, 17 Nov 2011 04:11:43 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_737765 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_737765 tree of a different color I think they are just bummed because they have to wait before they can go...so they want the blastocysts to wait too. Thu, 17 Nov 2011 07:05:06 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_738732 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_738732 Ophiucha It's fascinating, the entire "separation of Church and State" thing. Both sides seem to think it only works one way, and I mean this in a sense broader than just abortion (though it applies there, too). Like, the left is okay with mandating that churches conduct gay marriages (or, historically, interracial ones), and the right thinks its okay to ban them entirely because it's against God. I'm beginning to think America doesn't know the definition of 'separate'. Also, slightly off topic, but lovin' the avatar. Great webcomic. :) Wed, 23 Nov 2011 05:08:46 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_816140 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_816140 Ophiucha On Facebook, a girl I was in theatre with just referred to picketing a Planned Parenthood as "saving babies", and she was talking about how she gets together with some of her college mates on weekends to do this. This honestly makes me pretty sick. How can anyone see harassing women - who may or may not even be there to get an abortion, even - as "saving babies"? On a NaNo note, I ended up writing the first four chapters of about three projects before just giving up this year. First time, too, I almost always win. Ah well, there's next year... Wed, 23 Nov 2011 05:18:01 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_816176 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_816176 Phoenix Personally, I don't care whether any given church performs gay marriages or not...but they should certainly lose any government subsidies (e.g., tax breaks) if they don't. If you don't serve the entire community, you're not entitled to be supported by them. Of course, I think all churches should lose their tax-exempt status in any event. ;-&gt; Wed, 23 Nov 2011 15:27:38 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_821751 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_821751 Phoenix I don't know what the current stats are, but last time I saw them, women seeking an abortion made up a very small percentage of those visiting Planned Parenthood. So hurrah for those girls for preserving ignorance, preventing frightened teens from getting appropriate birth control products, and discouraging pregnant women from receiving adequate prenatal care. And, of course, for making it slightly more difficult for already unhappy young women to terminate unwanted pregnancies safely. Oy. Wed, 23 Nov 2011 15:35:02 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_821869 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_821869 beanza3 A lot of anti-abortionists have an abortion... And then pick up their pichforks and go on again the next day... It's just... Pathetic... I mean, if you want to have an abortion, fine. But don't attack others for doing the same exact thing!! Thu, 08 Dec 2011 16:04:19 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_952372 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_952372 Cavaliere Errante I just saw this topic and it reminded me of an argument I had with a friend the other day, who is very anti-abortion. Sickeningly so, he takes the stance of "the fetus has a right to live, and absolutely nothing comes before that, not even the life of the mother." I mean, at least the more sane anti-choicers make allowances for "special cases" where the mother's life is in danger, the child is a product of rape or incest, etc. Anyhow, during our argument he proclaimed that "all abortions should be treated like murders, and every woman who gets an abortion should be arrested and convicted of murdering their child." So I asked him how the bloody hell he plans on enforcing that law? And... it really got me thinking, how could people who want abortion to be considered murder and women who obtain them arrested and treated like murderers, possibly enforce such a law? I mean, in the early stages of pregnancy it's pretty much impossible to tell if a woman is pregnant at all. What about women who went out of state or out of country to obtain abortions? Or miscarriages, there are supposedly many ways to intentionally induce a miscarriage and how would one tell intentional miscarriages from the unintentional? So I'm going to ask you other pro-choicers out here. Do you think it is at all possible to enforce an "abortion is murder" law? Without massive invasion of privacy on behalf of all women (plus, being pregnant is a medical thing, and last I checked medical things are covered under privacy laws, you don't even have to tell your spouse you have cancer...)? And if it is possible to enforce such a law, how would law enforcement go about it? Mon, 26 Dec 2011 22:56:13 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1002897 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1002897 lemming_the_lemming The short answer is simply no. It would be next to impossible to effectively enforce "abortion = murder" laws, for the exact reasons you mentioned. Miscarriage being foremost. I'm not sure exactly how many pregnancies end in miscarriage (I'm sure someone here knows and can provide the number - but I'm sure it's high), but every single one of them would have to be investigated as a possible murder case. This would take up a lot of police time and resources, which could be better applied elsewhere, and it would be extremely difficult to differentiate between intentional and unintentional miscarriage. Going from somewhere where abortion is illegal to somewhere where it is legal in order to get one would, as far as I'm aware, be legal. The abortion would be carried out legally, after all. You abide by the law of the place you are in, not where you came from. So that's a possible loophole, although of course, having to travel would present difficulties. Then there's the fact that banning abortion has next to no effect on the number of abortions, only on the relative safety of the procedure, and the number of complications. Again, I'm not certain on the precise numbers, but the only result of banning abortion is an increase in the number of women who die due to unsafe abortion (this, of course, being why the "pro-life" label is so very inappropriate). So, any anti-abortion law would be: 1. Somewhere between extremely difficult and impossible to enforce. 2. Expensive. 3. Ineffective and dangerous. Tue, 27 Dec 2011 07:08:25 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1003484 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1003484 Phoenix Sad to say--though it would indeed be ludicrously difficult and expensive to enforce it--I've seen legislation proposed that would actually presume guilt on the part of any woman who miscarried. That is, any woman who had a miscarriage would have to prove that she had done everything possible to preserve the "child" to avoid doing jail time. If the US electorate were capable of either logic or common sense, we wouldn't be squandering billions on a "war on drugs", undeclared foreign wars, or the globe's worst health care system. Tue, 27 Dec 2011 15:33:04 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1004384 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1004384 DemiReb It's very easy to circumvent the law in countries where abortion is illegal. Women can get a free consultation from a gyn-ob and a safe medical abortion from Women on Web. Both abortifacients (misoprosol and mifeprisone) are registered as essential medicines by the WHO, and are also used as treatment for stomach ulchers, depression and some forms of cancer. So, who's going to prove that the woman receiving these took them for abortion instead of for depression? <a href="http://www.womenonweb.org/index.php?lang=en" rel="nofollow">www.womenonweb.org/index.php?lang=en</a> Tue, 27 Dec 2011 15:50:21 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1004423 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1004423 Phoenix I'd venture a sad guess that many of the women who need this resource most are least likely to have this kind of access. :-( Sat, 31 Dec 2011 18:42:10 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1015735 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1015735 DemiReb Yes, that is true, the poorest women won't be able to access this, unfortunately. But it is a start. It's a spin off from Women on Waves, a fully equiped medical ship that sails under the Dutch flag to countries, mostly in Europe, where abortion is still illegal. The treatment is given on international waters where the Dutch law is in effect. Not all women have the money to go to a European country where abortion is legal. But such operations are costly and slow. I think Women on Web will reach more women all over the world. Tue, 03 Jan 2012 16:05:13 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1026633 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1026633 Phoenix A hearty bravo for the Dutch, who are clearly most enlightened folk. And I don't say that just because my grandmother was a Burghoorn. ;-) Tue, 03 Jan 2012 18:34:53 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1027186 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1027186 DemiReb Cool! One of my great grandmothers hailed from a family that lived not far from Burghoorn for centuries. (Wieringen). Perhaps our some of our anchestors knew each other. :) Wed, 04 Jan 2012 17:46:22 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1030652 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1030652 Phoenix :-) Fri, 06 Jan 2012 19:10:49 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1037850 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1037850 Phoenix Woot! to the citizens of my state (Washington) who will have a chance this year to pass legislation to legalize marijuana use and gay marriage , and to require insurance companies that cover pregnancies to cover abortions as well. (Which you would think would be a no-brainer for the companies involved, since it's enormously cheaper to pay out for abortion.) Mon, 09 Jan 2012 14:55:30 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1044676 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1044676 Cavaliere Errante Ya know, for some reason the idea of marital rights coming down to a vote always pisses me off. I guess I just don't see why it should come down to a vote, there is no legitimate reason for legally discriminating against a select group of people. The only excuses for banning gay marriage I have ever heard are religious reasons, and ya know there's supposed to be this whole separation-of-church-and-state as well as this freedom-of-religion thing that is supposed to protect us from this sort of thing. I guess I just don't see why anyone should get the right to vote to discriminate against me. It should be a no-brainer, I have as much a right to pursue happiness as anyone else, and there is no legitimate reason for the law to prevent me, or anyone else, from marrying the person they love. I mean, don't get me wrong, I totally want marital rights to be opened up in all 50 states but... le sigh, I just don't see why it is such a difficult issue to resolve. Mon, 09 Jan 2012 22:39:39 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1046138 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1046138 Phoenix It's sadly reminiscent of the situation with women's rights and black rights; the rights were things that obviously ought to belong to everyone equally, but we had to pass redundant freaking laws to get some rough approximation of equal treatment under the law. I suppose the good news is that for the under-30s it really *is* a no-brainer, so nation-wide marriage equality is just a matter of time. Tue, 10 Jan 2012 01:55:24 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1046545 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1046545 Cavaliere Errante That is good news. :) And I do know that no matter how much of a hissy-fit the right-wing conservatives throw, equal marital rights <em>will</em> one day be achieved. It <em>will</em> happen, I just get sick of all the stupid arguing over it. It's <em>going</em> to happen, so why can't we just skip straight to making it happen instead of jumping through all these stupid hoops that just drag the process out even longer and make right-wing conservatives feel like they actually have the power to control what I do in my private life. It's just irritating, ya know. Can't we just skip straight to the realizing that all willing adult couples deserve equal marital rights and opportunities? Tue, 10 Jan 2012 13:24:19 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1047446 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1047446 littleoph Same-sex marriage is an important point in the upcoming French presidential election. Even in the right wing, pretty much anyone has realised that it WILL happen, no matter what. After all, it's being legalised in other European countries, one by one. The only thing that will change depending on who we elect (fingers crossed for not getting another five years of Sarkozy) is the "when". I hope your side of the Atlantic moves on too! Tue, 17 Jan 2012 03:34:34 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1067002 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1067002 DemiReb With a left wing majority in the French Senate, it does indeed look good. When same-sex marriage was legalized in the Netherlands, we had a similar political constellation. First, the Senate gained a liberal/labour majority just a year before the elections for Parliament, which were also a victory for liberal/labour. Today we had a national outrage that also affects the USA. Rabbi Ralbag, who is head rabbi of the Jewish community in Amsterdam, but mostly lives and works in the USA, had signed a (USA) document that homosexuality is a 'disease'. Amsterdam was mentioned in the document, which raised questions in Parliament, since calling homosexuals 'sick' is a criminal offence here. The rabbi has been suspended from duties in Amsterdam, but that doesn't solve the problem for the USA. I too hope that the USA will move to equal marital rights, but I guess it's the same problem we have in Europe. Can you see Poland or Malta legislating same-sex marriage any time soon? Tue, 17 Jan 2012 16:12:18 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1068384 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1068384 littleoph On the other hand, just a few years ago, I wouldn't have placed a bet on Spain (another country with a strong Catholic tradition) being one of the first Western European countries to cross the line. My point is, well, you never know which way the wind will blow tomorrow. Tue, 17 Jan 2012 16:52:07 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1068550 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1068550 Phoenix And a woot! : http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cecile-richards/birth-control-coverage-a_b_1220668.html Sun, 22 Jan 2012 20:01:18 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1083030 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1083030 wintertulip I think the people running women on web should be knighted, or made into saints, or something. I've been aware of the campaign for a while and support it as often as I can afford it. I love that they're out there actually doing something to help people suffering because of these ridiculous laws. I'm never sure whether to promote the organisation or not. I'd hate for the pro-lifers to start campaigning for the service to be blocked, but at the same time I want to sing from the rooftops about the great job that is being done. Tue, 24 Jan 2012 09:58:12 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1087710 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1087710 Cavaliere Errante I was about to post on the hhs mandate thread, when I realized that my comment was rather argumentative and basically I just did not want to start an e-riot and make our poor moderators angry. So I decided I'll post my little rant here, with other pro-choicers, rather than inciting further arguments that will likely devolve into flinging e-poop at one another. Start rant: I do not understand people who say they have no moral qualms about paying for the support of abandoned children, but they do have moral qualms about paying for contraceptives, abortion services, and sterlization. To me, that basically says one has no moral qualms about forcing a woman to give birth against her will, which to me constitutes as cruel and unusual punishment for something that isn't even a crime. Or, last I checked, having sex with another willing, consenting adult was not a crime. To me, forcing a woman through a pregnancy and delivery she does not want is torture, that's all there is to it. And I also see it as having severe social ramifications of rendering all women to be less valuable than their uterus. And dare I say, a woman is far more valuable as a whole than one measely body part is. I just don't understand how someone could be okay with that. (I also don't see how those laws could be enforced if they were to exist but I have already asked about that) I mean how could anyone support the idea of punishing a woman for a crime that is not even a crime!? Or torturing her? And let's not even get into the issue of foster care and adoption, those systems are a very far cry from being perfect, sometimes they seem to be a far cry from even being functional. Besides that, a friend if mine once commented that adoption is a substitute for parenting, but it doesn't resolve the pregnancy problem. Also I really wanted to point out that it offends ME that certain groups of people feel they have some superior right to tell others what to do with their lives, bodies, and personal property. But no one gives a crap about what offends me, the only thing that matters is that these poor groups are being offended. Poor groups, the rest of the world is just a big fat meanie head for not doing what pleases them. End rant. Sat, 18 Feb 2012 22:45:47 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1151971 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1151971 Phoenix Yup. I especially love the twist that the Catholic bishops are now whining (bizarrely) about the First Amendment--the same Catholics who want the govt to endorse and enforce their (Catholic) morals on the American people, will they, nill they. Catch a freakin' clue, dudes--this is a secular state. Or it's supposed to be. It's a small consolation that time is on our side, that Christianity of that sort is slowly and steadily losing ground in the Western world. Not quickly enough for my taste, mind, but things have improved. If you can believe it, it was actually *illegal* in Wisconsin in my teen years to provide information about birth control, i.e., a druggist could sell you condoms, but he couldn't tell you what they were for. Sheerest lunacy...and a lot of shattered lives, because you're right: it's torture, turning a woman into a walking uterus. And that doesn't even begin the address the fact the we already have TOO DAMN MANY people. Hats off to the Chinese; while there are many unlikeable things about their govt, hurrah for their facing up to the overpopulation problem and embracing the draconian but necessary solution. If the rest of the world followed suit, we might achieve a reasonable and sustainable population in a century or so, as opposed to just rolling on past the tipping point and ending up with a world that won't sustain human life at all. (And yeah, sue me--I'm laughing hysterically at the declaration of a teen-aged boy that he's happy to support all those unwanted children. Yup yup, I am.) Sun, 19 Feb 2012 03:16:22 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1152622 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1152622 DemiReb American orthodox christianity seems a lot more aggressive fo me than the European version. I'm not saying we don't have religious fanatics over here; we have, but not crazies that go shooting doctors who work in an abortion clinic. And no bishop here ever objected to a mandatory national health insurance covering abortion, telling their flock the lie that they are 'paying' for abortion and contraceptives with a national heatlh insurance. They are apparently beter educated about how insurance risk pooling works than their American colleagues. Sun, 19 Feb 2012 15:12:04 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1153270 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1153270 Phoenix Well, yeah--Americans have to be kept ignorant about all that so that they don't realize that we have a ridiculously expensive and horrifically bad "health care" system that succeeds only in enriching insurance companies. We're paying way more per capita than any other nation on earth, and our care is worse than that of some Third World countries--we rate what?--22nd? 23rd?--in quality. It's either a farce or a tragedy...depending on whether or not you're ill. You're right, I think, about the aggression on the part of many American sects. They're fear-biters, and their sense of entitlement is being threatened. Especially since the ban on school prayer and the injunction not to use public monies to enforce religious instruction (and conversion), certain Christian groups have realized that their de facto status as state religion is under fire. As a result we're seeing ongoing lunacy like "creation science," which has no place in a science class, and the loony rewrites of history forced by the Texas School Board. Don't get me started on the state of American "education"! Sun, 19 Feb 2012 17:56:36 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1153803 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1153803 Cavaliere Errante I don't really understand their attempt at a First Amendment violation claim. No one is making them get an abortion, no one is making them use contraceptives, nor are they being forcibly sterilized. I am no Constitution expert but the last time I checked I thought the First Amendment protected one's right to religiously believe as one will and not be prosecuted for it. It does not, however, make it so that anything that offends your moral values can be made illegal. I don't think the First Amendment protects you from being offended, or gives you any sort of right to control what others do. (That made me laugh too, last time I checked it costs about $150,000 to raise a child, and I am sure that is guessing low these days. An abortion is a one time cost of $300-950 according to our friends at Planned Parenthood. And that is all for one child. How many children are in foster care or adoption systems right now?) Mon, 20 Feb 2012 10:14:47 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1156058 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1156058 DemiReb We've had a taste of such 'education' last Saturday. The Dutch public broadcaster picked up this choice bit of utter nonsense about euthanasia in the Netherlands. Two days later, I still burst out in fits of hysterical laughter. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yn-eejMcmuA Mon, 20 Feb 2012 14:20:51 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1156479 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1156479 Phoenix Yeah, the First Amendment thing was silly-ish. Particularly when you reduced the argument to read: "We have a Constitutional right to make any employee of ours suffer maximally if she does things we think are naughty." Seriously, dudes? Or even: "Our money might be spent on things we don't approve of." Join the club, guys--the govt spends buckets of (my) cash on things I consider stupid, silly, and immoral. That might be aggravating, but it's not unconstitutional. I'm afraid the bottom line is that in the depths of their theocratic little hearts those bishops really do believe that they are entitled to decide all questions of "morality" for the entirety of the American population. (I imagine that $150k only gets them to 18--a college education can cost that much in itself now. :-( ) Mon, 20 Feb 2012 15:01:36 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1156603 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1156603 Phoenix Oh my--is that guy a walking freak show, or what? The GOP candidates this year are a collection of cartoons, as funny as hell as long as you can assume they'll lose. And it's hard to imagine that they won't...but nobody expected that sorry moron George W. to win either. Oy. Mon, 20 Feb 2012 15:07:24 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1156630 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1156630 DemiReb Before you get the idea the Dutch media only shows the bad stuff about America, here's some heartwarming news I saw today. It's a Dutch website. It's about a school for kids who were bullied in other schools because they are homosexual or express themselves in other ways that are not accepted. The reporter says in the end that all students graduate. http://nos.nl/video/343692-school-voor-gepeste-kinderen.html (School for bullied kids, says the url) Tue, 21 Feb 2012 14:42:14 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1159398 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1159398 Cavaliere Errante Oh yes, I imagine back in the day when abortions were "done in the shadows" it was so much better. Mmhm, yeah so much better when a woman never came home because the backalley abortionist accidentally killed her and everyone was too scared to take her to a hospital. So much better than having it done in a sterlized, clean enviornment that is well prepared for something to go wrong. I can't decide if this year's republican candidates are funny or terrifying. Tue, 21 Feb 2012 14:52:47 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1159438 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1159438 DemiReb This is outright terrifying: [quote]Former Senator and Republican presidential candidate Rick Santorum recently told a local university in Nebraska... “It has been my experience that when dealing with females, you need to treat them as though they have a mental disorder… especially those that are constantly seeking equality in the workplace, the military, and in the home. Women need to know their place and need to know when it is okay for them to speak. They were put on this earth for two reasons, and two reasons alone: taking care of their husband, and giving birth to his children… that is all. Any woman who tells you otherwise is obviously touting the liberal agenda of equality, and they need to be told the truth of their purpose. It is a disorder that can be fixed, but not until they go through several years of therapy to understand that they need to be subservient.”[/quote] Can someone hand me a bucket, please? Tue, 21 Feb 2012 18:14:32 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1159924 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1159924 Phoenix And that was right after declaring LGBT folks mentally ill, I gather. Isn't he just a peach? But that little speech may have sealed his loss as the GOP candidate; at least one prominent GOP woman has publicly said she'd like to kick him in the nuts. Tue, 21 Feb 2012 18:36:10 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1160013 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1160013 Cavaliere Errante That man deserves a nice bullet to the head. Tue, 21 Feb 2012 19:11:46 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1160183 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1160183 Phoenix Honestly, I feel like I'm in a time-warp--I don't think I've heard a prominent political figure making public statements like that since the early '60s. What an utter knothead! How did he ever rise beyond dogcatcher? And how does he imagine that he's going to win when he labels over half the electorate "mentally disordered"? Well, of course, they'd have to *be* mentally disordered to vote for this gasbag.... Yeesh. Didja hear about his press secretary criticizing Obama's "Islamic agenda"? Have they been passing out Stupid Pills at the Republican caucuses? Tue, 21 Feb 2012 19:35:45 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1160270 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1160270 DemiReb Let's wait a while with that bullet and see how many delegates he gets. I like to watch the circus too, especially if the Republicans bring in the super clowns. Even more fun when they start talking about the evil Dutch with their euthanasia, abortion, same sex marriage and legal marijuana. Wouldn't it be epic if it comes to a brokered convention? Wed, 22 Feb 2012 12:08:43 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1162194 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1162194 littleoph [quote=Phoenix] And how does he imagine that he's going to win when he labels over half the electorate "mentally disordered"? Well, of course, they'd have to *be* mentally disordered to vote for this gasbag.... [/quote] Narratively speaking, that's actually pretty brilliant: a self-fulfilling affirmation! Any woman who votes for him proves him right! Thu, 23 Feb 2012 11:48:30 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1164469 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1164469 beanza3 And the thing is, they're not making the churches do it. They're making colleges and hosipitals have this problem. Hey, bishops and such, this may be crazy for you, but half the people on that payroll... They're not catholic. The people in the hosiptals and schools. Not all are catholic. Grow up. I'm Catholic myself. I respect the churches right to make decisions for their own parish, but any authority beyond that should be constrained to how the masses work and *religious* things. Not what practically secular places are doing. America should be covered by American law. Not religious authority. And why do the idiots have to be so annoying loud? They make all the sane people harder to hear. &gt;.&lt; Fri, 24 Feb 2012 23:07:52 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1168647 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1168647 Spuggey Ha ha ha! You're right there! Sat, 25 Feb 2012 04:59:45 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_1169036 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=4#forum_thread_comment_1169036 Spuggey Civil Partnerships are allowed in the Uk, but not marriage yet for same sex couples. I don't get why people are opposed to it! I'm a woman who wants to marry a man, but why is it my business if a woman wants to marry another woman or a man another man? It doesn't harm anyone, it doesn't affect me. Why is it anyone else's business. Years ago people would have looked down on my parents for marrying because one is black and one is white. Get a grip. As far as I'm concerned, rules for marriage should be thus: Both parties must be human, over 16 and consenting. Voila! Problem solved. It's the same with the pro-choice debate... If you don't believe in abortion, don't have one. If you think other people are going to hell or something for doing it... Well, that's their problem, isn't it? I wasn't going to comment because I rarely comment on pro-choice/life or religious debates anymore but I suppose sometimes you've got to add your name to the roll call, since this is not actually a debate thread! :) I would probably not be able to have an abortion should I ever get pregnant (I hate the idea, don't really want a kid) but I am adamant that it's an individual's choice. I'm dismayed by newspaper reports here where statistics show some women have four or five abortions... I think that's not a great thing, but you can't tar people with the same brush and each case and each individual should be judged on it's own merit. I also thing contraception is a great thing, but even that is noot foolproof. We have a situation in the UK where girls as young as 13 can be given contraceptives and abortions WITHOUT informing their legal guardians, despite the age of consent being 16. I think this is wrong. Yes, the girls are entitled to have the procedures, but I think parents should be informed. One thing not mentioned on here so far: Rape. It's a horrible topic, but should women and young girls who have been raped be forced to carry their attacker's child to term? In my mind that is physical and emotional abuse of the highest order, not to mention the effect on the child when it grows up to learn that it was not the product of loving parents, but the product of a hideous assault. Nice. There's enough misery in the world, without bring children into it who have no one to take care of them. Many children, in the UK, are not just adopted as babies. They spend years, sometimes decades, in the care system before being tossed out at 16 with no real home or family. Isn't that cruel too? Sat, 25 Feb 2012 05:20:13 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1169066 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1169066 Spuggey Oh... Littleoph... You'll also notice that Italy (a Catholic country) has one of the lowest birth rates in Europe despite the Pope's stance on contraception. My Dad is Italian, we go there a lot... Yes, people go to church (not my family admittedly) but do they follow it to the letter... Well, look at my comment and yours and judge! ;) Sat, 25 Feb 2012 05:22:08 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1169070 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1169070 Spuggey I feel the need to apologise for all the typos in the post above... Edit button, I miss you. *shamed* Sat, 25 Feb 2012 05:24:10 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1169075 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1169075 Spuggey I insist that lowering the population is the ONLY way to save the planet. No one listens though. I watched a documentary where a representative of the WHO was pointing out that every time we're *close* to feeding everyone... there's suddenly another three million people. There's too many people and not enough resources. As for the religious debate... It bothers me, even in the UK, when religious groups are consulted in parliament. Luckily, we don't *yet* have the same level of christian fundamentalism as I've seen in some other places, but it's hard to say that any one religious group can speak for such a diverse society. We should be governed by civil law only. Why should laws governing me be decided by people advocating any religion to which I do not subscribe? Also, isn't religion meant to be about tolerance and not using threats and coercion to enforce your will on those that disagree? Anyway, sorry, not trying to start a row! I just think so many things should be left down to individual choice and cannot be enforced by the state! :) Sat, 25 Feb 2012 05:30:28 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1169083 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1169083 Cavaliere Errante In regards to parents being informed I think it's a double-sided issue. Parents should absolutely be informed if the child in question is having an abortion. Not that they should be allowed to stop it, because even underage a girl should have rights to her own reproductive tract, but they should at least know. Especially if it is at all possible that this pregnancy was the result of unwanted sexual contact. As far as contraceptives go, that's where I feel things get a little iffy. Age of consent may be sixteen, and kids definitely should not be having sex when they are thirteen, <em>but</em> they are. And they're going to keep having sex. The problem with informing parents when a child is getting contraceptives is that it probably won't stop the kid from having sex. Knowing that your parents will be informed that you have sought contraceptives might deter kids from getting them, and then having unprotected sex, and... well we all know why that's not a good thing. It would be easier if kids would just decide not to have sex until they reached the age of consent. Sat, 25 Feb 2012 12:22:54 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1169453 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1169453 Spuggey We have VERY detailed sex education in the uk, free clinics, doctors, hospitals, advice and contraception and one of the highest teen birth rates in Europe! Kids NEED to feel some guilt and learn that their behavior has consequences on others. If you're not old enough to admit it, you're not old enough to do it! Sat, 25 Feb 2012 14:45:31 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1169659 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1169659 Cavaliere Errante While I agree with you, kids need to realize that their actions have consequences yadda yadda yadda, making it so that they need parental consent to gain access to things like condoms is not going to fix anything. At all. Kids are <em>still</em> going to have sex. And there is not a damn fucking thing you can do about it. The only thing you <em>can</em> do is try your hardest to educate them and give them access to contraceptives and hope they make the right choice. Taking away access to contraceptives, even if they are under the age of consent, will only make things worse. Sat, 25 Feb 2012 15:41:21 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1169825 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1169825 Phoenix A little rude; a little funny: "(Borowitz)---Now that we all agree contraception is a bad idea, let's take a harder look at electricity and soap." Sun, 26 Feb 2012 00:20:43 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1171413 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1171413 littleoph Perhaps guilt is not the right angle. Let's face it, British teens KNOW what to do not to get pregnant. So obviously, those who do, at some point, choose to take the risk (not counting the unfortunate girls who get raped). So, why do they make this choice? If we can answer this question, perhaps we can move on to finding a solution. Some friends of mine are teachers (in France) and they shudder every time a fifteen-year-old girl very seriously says that if she was to have a child, at least someone would love her. Does it come down to it? The lack of love in this modern world? Sun, 26 Feb 2012 09:56:02 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1171732 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1171732 DemiReb I think it is more a matter of ignorance/insecurity/not quite knowing what to do. The Netherlands has a very low rate of abortion in the under 19 age group. ( 7 per 1000 abortions, compare UK: 23 per 1000, sorry, I have no data available for La France, but it's not in the lowest range). In all three countries sexual education in schools is mandatory (UK and Netherlands: 12, France: 13) and contraceptives/abortion is free (in the Netherlands: contraception for women under 21, abortion always). Based on this, one would think the number of teen pregnancies would be about the same in all three countries. In the Netherlands, we have seen that there is another factor that seems to make the difference: media campaigns aimed at teenagers and acted by teenagers. These campaigns are broadcasted on TV around programs that are watched by teens. Telling teens about contraception isn't enough. According to studies, most teen pregnancies in countries where contraceptives are easily available, the main reason is an incorrect use of them, and not knowing what to do when a condom breaks or when a girl has forgotten to take the pill. BUt also adults are often remarkably uninformed. A study in the UK showed that a significant number of parents, teachers and teens do not know about the morning after pill and that it is freely available in any pharmacy (hurray for the NHS!) Especially young teens are very confused about sexuality, and it doesn't help that adults often aren't sure either. So that is why the Dutch government sponsored making a series of fun videos that (explicitly) show how to us contraceptives and what to do if a condom breaks or when a girl has forgotten the pill. Sun, 26 Feb 2012 12:16:34 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1171837 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1171837 Phoenix Oh my--funny pro-choice legislators in Georgia!-- http://jezebel.com/5887293/smartass-state-lawmaker-proposes-vasectomy-limits-for-men?tag=roe-v-world Fri, 02 Mar 2012 15:18:21 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1185141 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1185141 Cavaliere Errante That is hilariously brilliant! Sat, 03 Mar 2012 11:47:20 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1186745 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1186745 Cavaliere Errante Can we go ahead and green-light the Santorum shooting thing? He's apparently now planning on "unmarrying" thousands of same-sex couples by rewording the US Constitution to make same-sex marriages illegal in all 50 states. This is, of course, an effort to gain support from the Catholic community but still. Can someone just put him out of our misery? Sun, 04 Mar 2012 15:08:24 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1189496 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1189496 Phoenix Well, if my agenda included Making Catholics Look Bad (and Silly), supporting Santorum would be a stroke of genius. I'm thinking that the winner of the GOP nomination will be the guy who is publicly an idiot least often...and how sad is that? And I'm actually missing Barry Goldwater. He was widely considered a loon back in the day, but compared to our current crop of Repugs, he was a model of wit, intelligence, and sanity. Shoot, these guys make *Nixon* look like a prince! Sun, 04 Mar 2012 17:25:30 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1189730 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1189730 littleoph Meanwhile, some far-right extremist managed to turn the French presidential campaign away from the important problems, and President Sarkozy himself now claims that what we, as a people, really care about, is whether the meat we eat is halal or not. This stupid debate is going on and on, while the country, including other candidates, watches in disbelief. Hello there! What is happening on both sides of the Atlantic right now? Is 2012 really the end of the civilised world? Tue, 06 Mar 2012 03:48:01 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1193535 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1193535 Phoenix Oy. But seriously... Has the world ever actually *been* civilised? Tue, 06 Mar 2012 04:10:37 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1193551 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1193551 littleoph Point taken. However, when I see the Malian presidential campaign, how some challengers struggle to bring the debate to a higher level than the usual "vote for me and I'll buy you a car", how they look up on our older democracies... while our own campaigns look more like mud-wrestling than anything else, I can't help thinking something has gone terribly wrong. Tue, 06 Mar 2012 06:14:33 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1193658 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1193658 DemiReb A first step for women's rights: Argentina allows abortion for rape victims :) http://www.aljazeera.com/news/americas/2012/03/2012314135030394536.html Wed, 14 Mar 2012 12:33:00 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1212349 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1212349 Blue Belle Another pro-choicer checking in. As a woman I feel it is my right to choose what goes on with my body, and furthermore I feel it is my responsibility to support the choices and rights of other women too. And as a woman who cannot have children due to medical issues, it's even more important that the option of abortion is available to me. While my medical conditions on their own are not really that severe, according to my doctor the stress of pregnancy would likely kill me before I even reached the third trimester. And... well frankly I don't see the point in dying for a child that would never have a chance at being born anyway, if I die before the third trimester so does the fetus. I also get annoyed with people who say "well there's always adoption." Yes. There is adoption, but that doesn't resolve the whole pregnancy issue, now does it? Tue, 20 Mar 2012 20:45:55 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1227695 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1227695 wintertulip For any UK pro-choicers: Recently, aggressive anti-choice groups 40daysforlife and Abort67 have been targeting BPAS clinics in London and Brighton. BPAS is a not-for-profit organisation doing a sterling job providing abortions and contraceptive services on behalf of the NHS. The 40daysforlife group have been harassing women on their way into the clinic and handing out leaflets filled with blatant lies (e.g. "abortion doubles your risk of breast cancer" ...er, not according to the scientific community who have looked into that issue and concluded that there is no connection). They have even been filming women attending the clinic for appointments. The group protesting in Brighton, Abort67, are even worse, as they display graphic pictures of aborted fetuses (the fact that this clinic is close to a primary school makes this even more inappropriate). Again, they hand out literature filled with lies and try to obstruct the door of the clinic. There is a <a href="http://www.change.org/petitions/withdraw-all-support-of-abort67?utm_medium=facebook&amp;utm_source=share_petition&amp;utm_term=own_wall" rel="nofollow">petition you can sign</a> to ask the local church to withdraw their support of Abort67. On the evening Friday 30th March they are planning to hold a "prayer vigil" outside the Bedford Square clinic. As a response, the Bloomsbury Pro-choice alliance are organising a counter-protest to be held at the same time. Anyone who can be in London that day, I encourage you to go: <a href="https://www.facebook.com/events/139249196201136/" rel="nofollow">Facebook event page</a> There has also been a fundraiser set up to help BPAS, who have had to deal with these protesters for the last month. BPAS is a registered charity, providing abortions and contraceptive services on behalf of the NHS, as well as offering subsidised services for women who are not covered by the NHS (e.g. women coming from Ireland for abortions). <a href="http://uk.virginmoneygiving.com/fundraiser-web/fundraiser/showFundraiserProfilePage.action?userUrl=boycott40daysforlife&amp;isTeam=true" rel="nofollow">YOU CAN DONATE HERE TO SUPPORT BPAS</a> The idea of the fundraiser is to use the publicity generated by 40daysforlife to support abortion services in the UK, keeping them free and accessible for all. In this time of public sector cuts, BPAS could really use the extra support. Thanks to anyone who follows through on any of the above actions. We need to keep anti-choice extremists from getting a foothold in the UK. You can find out more about the pro-choice response to 40daysforlife at <a href="http://40daysforchoice.tumblr.com" rel="nofollow">40daysforchoice.tumblr.com</a> Thu, 22 Mar 2012 17:09:56 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1231534 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1231534 mothgirl Hiya! Staunchly pro-choice queer teenage feminist here, pitching my voice in for the procreative rights of the uterused. Tue, 03 Apr 2012 04:07:12 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1258721 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1258721 Cavaliere Errante Have you all heard about the Dallas-area teacher who was fired from a Christian school for getting pregnant out of wedlock? I want to know how the hell that's even legal, and I want to know why it's legal for any place of employment to be allowed to put those kinds of stipulations in their contracts to begin with. And furthermore I want to know why this school thinks firing the teacher for getting pregnant out of wedlock is setting a better example for their students than, say, showing kindness, compassion, and support for her. I grew up attending a Christian church, and I was always told that it was Christian responsibility to aid others in their hour of need, to be kind, to be compassionate, to be loving, and all that other nice stuff. Firing a pregnant, unwed woman doesn't seem to fit into any of that. But anyways, my main question is why does a place of employment have the rights to determine when a woman can get pregnant if she so chooses? And another question, would they fire male teachers for getting a woman, to whom he was not married, pregnant? Wed, 11 Apr 2012 19:22:51 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1282163 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1282163 Phoenix I would note that a) it's Texas, and b) it's a private school, and I suspect they could offer fairly restrictive contracts if it suits them. Which is not to say it doesn't suck. Wed, 11 Apr 2012 21:37:47 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1282476 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1282476 Cavaliere Errante Makes me ashamed that I was born in Dallas, really. But I still don't get why some religious group gets special treatment and can use their contracts to control someone's private life. If a Muslim school tried it I'd bet you twenty bucks they'd lose in court, but not the so-called Christian school. Getting pregnant just seems like one of those rights you shouldn't be able to sign away no matter who wrote the contract. Thu, 12 Apr 2012 08:49:22 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1283430 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1283430 Phoenix Mm. Well, I'm not sure I'd call getting pregnant a right, but--playing devil's advocate--I might submit that some contracts might reasonably bar pregnancy for their duration. Active-duty soldiers in war zones come to mind. Ditto research scientists in Antarctica. Not that that excuses "morals clauses." (My partner is a recovering Texan. She beat feet outta there as soon as she could manage it...but still has nightmares about it four decades later.) Thu, 12 Apr 2012 14:19:37 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1283923 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1283923 Inkling Dreams If getting an abortion is a right, then so is getting pregnant. Thu, 12 Apr 2012 15:40:41 -0600 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1284156 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/writing-groups-and-clubs/threads/2226?page=5#forum_thread_comment_1284156