Sex in Young Adult Lit http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105 krminnj In my outline, I have a sex scene between two teenagers. Now, I know sex happens in YA fiction. What I am concerned about is how graphic/specific should I make the scene? Should I just gloss over it, or should I provide details? Mon, 17 Oct 2011 09:14:34 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_95879 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_95879 Maemi Different books have varying levels of explanation as far as the sex goes. I think the most common tactic I've personally seen for sex in YA is giving enough detail so you know what's going on but focusing more on the emotions of the POV character. Mon, 17 Oct 2011 09:20:18 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_95950 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_95950 muffinsplanned I think in YA you should at the most describe the feelings and the general of what is happening, i.e "(s)he loved the way (s)he touched her/him", nothing more, or if it's a girl losing her virginity "it stung". Descriptions like that should be vague and breif. Or you can just go with the feelings, and reflect on that it DID happen later. Don't do graphic, but glossing over it doesn't really work in all novels... Mon, 17 Oct 2011 11:26:55 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_97338 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_97338 CABridges Unless there's a specific action that moves the plot forward or becomes something more important later on, no need (other than titillation) to go into detail. Emotions, changes in relationships are better, I think. Mon, 17 Oct 2011 11:40:01 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_97474 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_97474 jefflion I think you can do anything (except for hard core erotica) as long as it suits your story. There are published YA novels that deal about losing your virginity alone (Judy Blume's "Forever", or Daria Snadowsky's "Anatomy of a Boyfriend", or, to a lesser extend (in a way there are other things going on), Laura Ruby's "Good Girls"). Blume's book was banned in libraries, but the other two never received such controversy (as far as I know). So I say it is possible to write and publish a YA book with (lots of) sex in it. However, I guess it should be age appropriate. Your character's should be older teens, for example. Plus, the scenes should be described either through feelings, or - like the aforementioned books did - through the (awkwardness and excitement) of new sexual experience. NOT like erotica. What I'm saying is that while these books are very explicit with the anatomical details and what not, it's done more informatively and not pornographically. But these books are very explicit and they're published. Seriously, I think you should be fine. There will ALWAYS be people who complain about this stuff, but if you think it suits your story, then put it in your story, and if it really belongs there, many people will agree with you. PS- I'm planning on having at least two sex scenes in my novel, but I don't worry about it. They're all necessary for the plot and character development. Mon, 17 Oct 2011 12:29:55 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_98070 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_98070 OpalRose I think that because it is a teen book, that any sex scene should focus more on the emotions, the relationship changes, even the new-ness of whats happening, without really being graphic in describing the sex, unless, as is said above me, it's necessary for plot/character development. Mon, 17 Oct 2011 13:52:41 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_99158 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_99158 jefflion I think this is a good test for YA sex scenes: What is a purpose of your sex scene? a) To advance the plot. This sex scene is a crucial moment and many things happen because of it. b) To develop my character. Sex is important, especially at this age and, presumably, it deeply affects the characters. c) To inform/educate teen readers about sex (as well as birth control, safe sex, potential risks, etc.) d) To make readers sexually aroused (help them the way porn movies and erotic stories do). e) To shock readers/moral guardians. Personally, I think everything except for the last two is acceptable in YA. Mon, 17 Oct 2011 14:35:31 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_99852 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_99852 Mstar There's a lot of somewhat detailed sex in mine, but mine is written about young adults that are actually adults, as in college aged and up. It really just depends of the tone of your story and the audience. YA for late teens/early twenties is very different from YA for early high school/upper middle school. Mon, 17 Oct 2011 14:42:07 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_99969 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_99969 agalamode Jefflion, good point. My reasons for including such scenes are a and b, and considering my plot, I cannot avoid such scenes. I have a hard time writing things like this because of the awkward factor, so I normally imply what is going on. I provide more feelings than I do actions, which is personally best for me. Mon, 17 Oct 2011 16:45:28 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_101663 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_101663 Raquelin Well, considering how half the shelf nowadays seems to be paranormal soft-core porn... You're probably fine as long as one half of the pair is an imaginary creature. Mon, 17 Oct 2011 16:57:29 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_101805 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_101805 Selo My novel last year has a sex scene, and the one I'll do this year may have at least some sexually-flavored parts in it. I read a lot of YA, the sex in which can actually be very sensual and exciting without reaching the level of erotica or adult fiction. The best approach is to describe feelings, as in emotions and thoughts, not mechanics. As someone mentioned earlier, sexuality is a huge part of being a teenager, and most characters will encounter those feelings at least in passing. So my tips for sex in YA books: - Read lots of YA that has sex in it. Judy Blume especially, then some of the other modern greats like Laura Wiess and Ellen Hopkins. I'd be more than happy to recommend a few titles for anyone who wants to see what beautiful, tender YA sex scenes are all about. Like any writing, you must read it to see how it's done. - Keep in mind your narrator. If first-person, the gender and personality of your character will determine how he or she describes, feels, and reflects on the action. If the story is third-person, pick an approach and stay with it. Remember that sex is about people, not just body parts, so let your characters tell you what happens to them. Mon, 17 Oct 2011 17:38:35 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_102283 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_102283 kitandkat Yeah, I'm pretty much the same way. I have to have sex scenes to be true to the characters and the story, and they always serve a purpose (I do not like writing them, so they would not be in there if they didn't have to be!). They are somewhat implied, but hopefully enough that it's really clear what happened. The youngest they are is 18, though. In my experience, sex scenes are much more common in books about older teens (like 16+) but I've definitely read a lot of them, so you should be fine. I think Anne Brashares does a good job of implied scenes with the Sisterhood series (getting more explicit as the characters get older). I really liked the scenes in Before I Die by Jenny Downham - more explicit, but really well-written. Mon, 17 Oct 2011 18:02:26 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_102587 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_102587 B_ethany13H It can be either way, detailed or not. Have you ever read the book Doing It? Yeah, it's all about doing 'it'. In many different ways. It's a funny book, but it's not something I'd nominate in book club. When vague sex scenes come up they usually say something vague (more vague than this sentence) or that 'they'd been together like never before' or something like that. It all depends on what your novel is about, what the tone is, and whether you want middle schoolers to be able to read it. Mon, 17 Oct 2011 20:42:34 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_104806 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_104806 Ayako With YA lit, the main focus is telling it as your MC would tell it or see it. Keep it on a YA level in terms of the writing, description, and word choice. How graphic it is is totally up to how graphic your MC makes it, whether it just happens and was or whether s/he remembers it in great detail. YA fiction does NOT have a "too adult" sort of limit to it, the way fiction for a slightly younger audience would. By this point, your audience is able to watch any scene you throw at them, their only problem being reading, as it needs to be on their reading level and have things they'd notice or remember. (And there are lots of YA books out there with no sex, just a mention of it, and graphic sex with many partners.) Tue, 18 Oct 2011 12:30:49 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_111899 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_111899 Sarona-Nalia What I do, personally, is write out the entire sex scene in the first draft. All the actions, thoughts, emotions, everything. Then, when editing, I go back over it. I decide which parts are really necessary for the reader to know. Most of the specific actions get cut, though a few remain in, but with less detail. Thoughts/emotions get emphasized. If you find that most of what you've written isn't necessary for the reader to know, then you should question why you decided your characters should have sex in the first place. In my opinion, it should show the reader something about the characters and their relationship, or it should advance the plot in some way. If those things aren't happening, you might consider cutting it entirely. Wed, 19 Oct 2011 18:44:10 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_134315 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_134315 mariah125 In my opinion, it completely depends on the voice and the level of detail in your novel, especially the way the narrator thinks about sex. Reading your summary, it sounds like the sex scenes would be pretty important since the novel focuses on the relationship between the two characters. Does Caroline have any previous sexual experience? How does she think about Nate in that way - is she consumed with lust, or more interested in their emotional connection? I would give enough description to tell the story of the scene, but concentrate on the sex in the context of their relationship, instead of writing it to titillate - but you should still make it pleasant to read! ;) And please, avoid cliches and keep it realistic. Thu, 20 Oct 2011 21:22:32 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_152092 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_152092 I_lovedyoufirst This would be my advice as well. A sex scene should work as any other scene would, moving the plot along, which is why the emotions/relationship changes are probably more important than the actual physicality. Fri, 21 Oct 2011 07:44:24 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_156033 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_156033 krminnj Wow, I didn't expect so many responses! Thank you all; this is all great advice and I'm sure it will make the scene in question much better. Sat, 22 Oct 2011 05:30:36 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_168475 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_168475 LDRobwell Write how ever feels organic. Teens have sex and are really, really horny. Older teens, especially. Sat, 22 Oct 2011 23:09:10 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_179920 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_179920 jefflion I have another problem. I'm comfortable with including sex in YA, but I never had to face this problem. My MC will have sex with two guys during the course of the story. To be honest, it didn't seem strange/"too much" to me, untill people pointed out. I still think it's essential for her to experience these two relationships, since they're vital for her character development. Wed, 26 Oct 2011 11:13:05 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_232557 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_232557 LDRobwell [quote=jefflion] I have another problem. I'm comfortable with including sex in YA, but I never had to face this problem. My MC will have sex with two guys during the course of the story. To be honest, it didn't seem strange/"too much" to me, untill people pointed out. I still think it's essential for her to experience these two relationships, since they're vital for her character development. [/quote] no such thing as to much. Go for it. It sounds great. Wed, 26 Oct 2011 12:35:19 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_233902 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_233902 lefty013 Write it how you feel it works best. My characters will have sex, and I'll write as much detail as I see fit. YA refers only to the age of the protagonist, not to the material or subject matter. Wed, 26 Oct 2011 14:32:44 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_235954 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_235954 jefflion Thanks for your replies! Like I said, I never gave it much thought, until people complained that a 17 year old girl having sex with two different guys (within 6 months period) is "too much". Now, I know stuff in books always seems "stronger" and it always feels like there's more of it than there really is (for example, you only need a few strategically placed f-words to convey a character who swears a lot), so I know two different boys in a book might seem like ten in reality and two sex scenes like "making out all the time". Not that I judge negatively those who have more sexual partners, but I don't want my MC to seem promiscuous. It just doesn't fit her personality. However, the whole situation is just one of those things that happen a lot, especially when you're new to the whole dating thing and confused by your own feelings and you can't tell the difference between sexual attraction and love. The first guy is her old crush, someone she liked for years, and he finally (finally!!!) starts paying attention to her. So she ends up having sex with him but after it she realizes he's not the one for her (and I'm not even talking about the "true love" sense; they're just not compatible at all), so she breaks up. And there's this other guy, who is compatible with her (first as a friend, later as a boyfriend), so she realizes her obsession with the first guy was meaningless, since she knew nothing about him. And her new boyfriend is kind and funny and just feels right and they are a good couple. So it makes sense to me that she'd want to sleep with him. I mean, it's stupid not to make her sleep with him just because she'd done it with another guy. (Oh, and there's no love triangle of any sorts, just for the record. I hate those.) Wed, 26 Oct 2011 15:02:28 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_236481 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_236481 Writing_Fast Write it however it would been seen or felt from the POV of the character. In the Gossip Girl series(the first book especially) there are sex scenes and they are really graphic. I dont think there is really any line in the sand or anything like that. just keep it very organic and very real feeling. Just make sure the feelings of the MC come through well and that you also spend time focusing n the feelings and the relationship as well. Wed, 26 Oct 2011 21:00:45 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_242123 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_242123 mariah125 That doesn't seem slutty at all to me, it seems perfectly reasonable given the circumstances. Teenagers need to learn that just because you lose your virginity to someone doesn't mean they're the one for you. Wed, 26 Oct 2011 21:25:04 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_242407 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_242407 LDRobwell [quote=mariah125] That doesn't seem slutty at all to me, it seems perfectly reasonable given the circumstances. Teenagers need to learn that just because you lose your virginity to someone doesn't mean they're the one for you. [/quote] I concur and if makes you feel better my protag will have a threesome. Wed, 26 Oct 2011 21:33:35 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_242512 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_242512 LDRobwell Thats to jeffilion Wed, 26 Oct 2011 21:34:17 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_242521 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_242521 mariah125 Your novel sounds... amazing... :O Yeah, my MC has messed around with one of her guy friends before she falls in love with (and sleeps with) Jone. And near the end of the book, the villainess manipulates her into making out/heavy petting, and uses it as blackmail... fun stuff. Wed, 26 Oct 2011 21:38:59 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_242577 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_242577 Coffeedrinker Okay, I don't know just how to ask this, so let me first explain my impressions. I've recently read a lot of so-called "dark, gritty YA" which includes sex from authors like Belbin, Keplinger, Dessen, Anderson, Burgess and others. It's not a genre I used to read myself (I switched to adult fiction with 12-13 and never looked back), so that was mainly done to get a feeling of things. Apart from other factors, which have nothing to do with this topic, I was irked by the sex in these books (with the very notable exception of Burgess). Even in those which were much lauded for being "sex-positive" about sex I found the descriptions usually to be anything but. Either sex was negatively, sordidly spoken or even snarked about, though it wasn't rape which was taking place at all, or it was described so, well, boringly and boredly, that I always ended up asking myself why these teens would have sex at all, if it was no different from eating a sandwich. Burgess came over more authentic, and at least his teens clearly want and enjoy what they do, but the actual descriptions again often read more or less like a medical observation, not like something people experience. Most of these authors are adult and supposedly have knowledge of sex, so it can't be lack of that why the descriptions lack so much. Yes, the crudeness and direct titillation of porn shouldn't be written into YA, I agree on that. But must the descriptions sound like a kitchen recipe or the drone of a biology teacher? Or cop out way before any participant has fun? Are current teen souls so delicate that they will not be able to read a really positive account of sex which goes into some detail? What beats me about this topic is that I am aware that teens of very young age even exchange snippets of porn (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1352243/Mobile-phones-Teens-use-look-porn-swap-revealing-photographs.html), often extreme and negative porn, or also filmed own sex, rape, even gang rape via their mobiles. Some of what has been found would make the eyes of seasoned adults water. Don't YA books squander the chance for showing what is wholesome, nice and positive about sex by withdrawing from the actual acts? The knowledge of which then gets negatively filled with xxx-porn teens procure from elsewhere? How much is really too much, not in the amount of partners, but in the amount of positive detail? Is a positive feeling to be avoided at all costs? Wed, 26 Oct 2011 23:44:16 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_243591 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_243591 LDRobwell I love your post, coffee drinker. It's so absurd to think that teens can't handle fun, positive sex. If you're writing sex in your book you should write it in the way that feels right for you. My protag will learn that sex isn't bad though others in her life will treat it as if it's the worst thing ever. Thu, 27 Oct 2011 00:49:18 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_243924 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_243924 Safkhet I wouldn't be too graphic. Your audience may or may not have experienced sex, but there's no reason either way to do a whole explicit scene of who puts what where. If you do add a graphic scene, you are going to vastly narrow the pool of people who will read the book. People will *not* read the book if it's too explicit, but nobody's going to not read it because it doesn't have a sex scene. Thu, 27 Oct 2011 11:54:58 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_250344 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_250344 Coffeedrinker Why do you think so? Thu, 27 Oct 2011 12:16:34 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_250640 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_250640 jefflion Oh ye,s that's another important issue, too. If you read YA books (and not just YA, mind you!), you might think sex is something either bad or unpleasant... Something that can be ok and make sense only under specific, narrow conditions. Especially if you're female. The only way it can be a positive or even a neutral experience is if you're in a long term loving relationship with the Right Guy who cares about you and even then, the experience brings only emotional fulfillment and physical part is not important (or is never seen as an appropriate to talk about). Thu, 27 Oct 2011 15:29:51 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_253641 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_253641 jefflion Now, don't get me wrong, I've had my share of awkward teen sex scenes. But it served the plot. My last year's MC was a girl who has issues (outside sex, but including it), and who agreed to have sex with her boyfriend only because she thought it was an appropriate thing to do if you're dating for 5 months and if you don't want to be a virgin in college. On the other hand, she was one of those girls who were taught that girls should be clean and nice, so anything messy or sweaty or otherwise sensual seemed dirty (both physically and morally) to her. So she was unable to relax during sex and she blamed her boyfriend because she experienced pain the first time and because she was never able to feel pleasure. Not to mention she was also manipulative, saying things such as "I gave you my virginity, now you must..." and similar. She was quick to name other girls the wh...es and sl...ts just because they liked to dress provocatively or if they had sex "too soon" (judging by her idea of what's soon and what isn't). The description seems formulaic, but she was a quite complex character on many areas and her attitudes towards sex were important for the story. So I captured these in several long scenes and I had to use the mechanical, "kitchen recipe" approach when describing these scenes from her POV because that was how she experienced it. I sure hope that I didn't make anybody think my goal was to show that sex is bad or mechanical... Thu, 27 Oct 2011 15:39:27 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_253765 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_253765 Coffeedrinker That's not what I criticise. If your character is like that she is like that and that is fine. I'm talking about description of the actual sexual activity, which even when - what rarely happens - described in some detail reads like the manual for changing tyres. The usual is the fade-to-black thing, often without even some snogging or making out described. I'm mainly talking published books here. What I find so cold about these descriptions is that it relegates the whole experience to being inconsequential, shameful, and obviously either to be negative or of so little import that it needs not be talked about. Thu, 27 Oct 2011 20:01:39 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_257119 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_257119 Cathrine_M_Nunn The first time I read a sex scene in a young adult novel was in a book I can't remember the name of. However, the scene stuck out to me because of how well I felt the writer handled the sex scenes that did occur in the book. The scenes were very basic and the only reason they were in there was because they moved the plot along, so that is how I expect them to be in a young adult novel, if there are any. I am not fond of the novels where the main goal of the female MC is to get in bed with the guy she likes, simply because I think it teaches young females that they need to do that to get with a great guy, when they shouldn't. Fri, 28 Oct 2011 01:05:02 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_259813 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_259813 Coffeedrinker Shouldn't what? I'm a bit puzzled there. I mean should not sleep with a guy they like because they think they have to? Or should not sleep with a guy at all (because of...what?)? Fri, 28 Oct 2011 01:55:13 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_260109 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_260109 AnnEliseMonte I'm a bit late to the party, but I've dealt with writing sex scenes in YA before. What I do is focus mostly on the emotions of the characters involved, rather than the act itself. I do include some description, such as the feel of one person's skin under the other's hands, etc. The method probably won't work for everyone, but I felt it was a good compromise between the "fade to black" method, where the sex is skipped entirely, and the more graphic, "instruction manual" style of sex that is a both a chore to read and extremely uncomfortable for the reader. Fri, 28 Oct 2011 02:58:52 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_260458 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_260458 JenHendren You've received a lot of good advice already. I have to agree -- it's what works best for your novel. I don't think graphic sex is necessary, but sex is different through the eyes of each character. You may have a character who is experiencing sex on a purely physical level. For them, the physical aspects would come into sharp relief. The sensations, etc... in that vein, it may be that you'd write a scene that's a little more detailed. On the other hand, you may have a scene where two characters are consummating an otherwise close connection. For them, it will be more about the emotions...with the physical thrown in, of course... But you may be able to zoom out a bit more to focus on the emotional aspects. The one thing, is that you don't want to have a sex scene simply for the sake of having a sex scene. Everything has to move the story forward in some way. Best of luck in your decision! Sun, 30 Oct 2011 09:41:35 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_298701 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_298701 JenHendren I don't have a problem with that at all. It's part of growing up. And by this, I don't mean to imply that one must be a mistake in order for this to work. They can both be essential and positive experiences in the end. Sun, 30 Oct 2011 09:44:29 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_298756 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_298756 Sigyn Personally, I keep my sex subtle and mostly off screen -- once the clothes come off, it's up to the reader's imagination. Actually, that tends to make people pretty hot. Sun, 30 Oct 2011 10:25:52 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_299448 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_299448 krminnj Wow, I never would have characterized Dessen as dark and gritty. Mon, 31 Oct 2011 03:34:47 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_317754 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_317754 Coffeedrinker LOL - she was so described to me. She is pretty "dark" in my book, as in almost out of the middle ages in her message. Just as Belbin and a few others. But then I am now told she doesn't mean her message the way it stands and I should read later books of hers. I think I might need some reprieve before I do that... So far I came across only two YA authors who wrote about sex in what I find an acceptable manner, and these are Burgess and Blume. Mon, 31 Oct 2011 04:22:05 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_318261 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_318261 krminnj Hmmm, maybe I should check them out. Mon, 31 Oct 2011 07:40:49 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_321439 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_321439 Coffeedrinker That's Melvin Burgess "Doing It" which is fairly recent and Judy Blume's "Forever", which is quite old, from 1975. I find it intriguing that there are so few books I've come across so far (even though I specifically bought and read for sex-positive content!) which show sex positively, acceptably explicit (which to me means not just showing the mechanics, but at least adding positive physical and emotional moments) and devoid of moralising. Just today I read two articles in Glamour about sexual acts and sexual knowledge among British women, one of which was highly pushing acceptance of practices at the instigation of male partners. The other, written by a couple of researchers, was shocking in showing how little knowledge even post-18 year old women had about their own body. I find it hence no coincidence that YA seems to very largely fail to catch the slack of insufficient general information. Its a great pity though, because that means for many their basic knowledge forms on severely leading magazine articles, or pornography, and there are few other sources giving a more realistic picture. Off my soapbox here. Mon, 31 Oct 2011 08:22:41 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_322393 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_322393 lydiasarah Here's a link to a great blog post that discusses a few ways to handle sex in YA. I found it helpful: http://acrowesnest.blogspot.com/2008/12/marianna-lets-get-it-on-sex-scenes-in.html Tue, 01 Nov 2011 17:42:51 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_370613 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_370613 Frapchesca I think it mostly depends on how the character feels about the event. For example, if it is their first time they are going to describe the situation differently than if this is a regular occurrence. Also, the dynamic between the characters should share similar chemistry as when they are engaging in other activities. Tue, 01 Nov 2011 17:50:10 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_370891 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_370891 SevastianVolkov My novel is going to have plenty of sex. Joyless, horrible, disgusting, depressing sex. Which young people do sometimes experience in real life. I don't care about getting it published or if any kids are actually ever going to read it, I just wanna tell the story. If you ever want to get your stuff published your editor will axe whatever they don't like or show you how to tone it down, but if it's important to the characters and story (like it should have been in the first place, of course!) they won't lay a finger on it. I wouldn't worry about it. Wed, 02 Nov 2011 08:31:54 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_390836 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_390836 FairyoftheFlames Based upon what I can tell from this synopsis, I, as a 17-year-old who can hardly stand and is uncomfortable with sex scenes (As a twilight fan I didn't pick up Breaking Dawn for two years because of it) might actually read your story. In there, your sex is 'necessary' to the plot/character development, and you should make it emotionally based, and make the physical sense very vague. I'm a teen and almost always drop a book that has sex in it because of my personal values. If you write it more implied, I probably wouldn't put it down. But than again, I'm pretty sure I'm different from most of the young adults in America, because I'm still a virgin and I'm committed to staying that way until marriage. But I don't know what would work for you. I just wanted my opinion out there since it's different from most of what other people are saying so far. Wed, 02 Nov 2011 15:30:57 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_404263 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_404263 FairyoftheFlames I see that I am not like most people on this post. I feel a little uncomfortable posting because my opinion is different, but I'll try my best to get my point across. I'm a young adult and a virgin who's unwilling to give that special part yet. I'm very uncomfortable with sex scenes, not only because of my personal choice to stay a virgin until marriage, but because of how they're written. What little experience I've had with it proves why I'm uncomfortable, maybe it's because I don't know what a good scene is suppose to be like because I end up with situations like this: The first book with sex in it I found was "Graceling" when I was in the 8th grade in my middle school's library, and I was either too dense or the book was too subtle for me to understand what in the world was going on until the final paragraph of the scene where she basically explained "it stung". And then I understood. "Ooooh. Okay... should I continue reading?" I decided to, and hoped that everything else was implied in the future. Most of the rest was implied, but I felt detached from the book from then on out. I recently tried to read her second book "Fire" and after 50 pages in, and reading about how the MC's father raped woman after woman, I decided to go to Goodreads to read up about the book. I felt a little ill as the reviews pointed out that most of the book was about endlessly-implied casual sex in one way or another, where it seemed that the only one that wasn't raped/doing it/etc was the father figure in the wheelchair. Even the space of time was measured by the FMC's menstrual cycle. Now, sex in general, it turns out, wasn't my biggest issue with this author. It was the "Marriage never, sex with condoms and never having kids forever (it was fantasy, so the girls had special herbs instead, but the same idea)" attitude the author had that I had problems with. So I set it down. And I've decided not to continue reading anything coming from that fantasy series (and possibly that author) again, because our moral beliefs towards sex and marriage are so different, and I'm uncomfortable with her views. Now, I don't mind a good romantic scene or a cute little romance novel (though I prefer stories with romantic elements instead), but if I see any warning signs or any mental red flags I will stop reading the book, or continue reading with an awkward detachment towards the characters and story, therefore losing enjoyment and making me feel like I have to be on my guard as I read. I'd like to point that side out since it didn't seem like anyone else has said anything about my perspective of it. I understand that I'm going to be seen as a naive kid with her head in the sand. And now with this post, I'm sticking my big ostrich neck out and looking at looking at all of you, waiting to see if you'll blow it off with a shotgun. I might be mocked or ridiculed by what I'm saying, but I still feel like my opinion needed to be represented. I almost always return books with sex back to my library and advise my peers to not read it. I think I'm different from the typical teenager (with my high standards and religious beliefs), but I felt like it's something that you should know from an actual member of the YA age group. Wed, 02 Nov 2011 16:18:09 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_406059 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_406059 jenn.bakerhenry I agree with a lot of what Jefflion has mentioned. I have sex in my YA novels as well. In one I gloss over it showing the aftermath because the sex itself isn't the focus but the emotions it creates. In my other YA novel sex is a core thing because the character uses it to try to connect with people and finds it doesn't work. So while the sex is there and you capture the physical there's also the emotional or lack of emotion that's being sought. Whatever works best for your novel in terms of what you want to convey, as everyone has said, is key for you. Do you want them to focus on how the physical makes them feel in all ways or do you just want it to be a kind of initiator for other events down the line? I think in any case that may be the case for adult fiction and YA. Unless it's romance or erotica I usually don't read sex for the sake of sex in fiction. Wed, 02 Nov 2011 18:22:08 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_410717 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_410717 bissybear Seconding this rec. It's really helped me figure out how I'm going to write the sex scene in my novel. Basically, just focus on the characters and how they are feeling, and you should be fine. Wed, 02 Nov 2011 18:54:46 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_411915 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_411915 jefflion Huh? Do you really think you're the only person who feels that way? Maybe it's because of this thread (don't be fooled by the title - it's not about whether there should be sex in YA or not; it's about how to write sex in YA. So, the thread attracts those who already decided to include some form of sex into their book). But seriously now. You are hardly alone in your feelings. There's nothing to be ashamed of. However, I do think reading about experiences different than your own is good. I mean, I wouldn't discard a book just because some characters make choices different than mine. But I must admit, I'd stop reading if it's something that I strongly oppose or if it makes me uncomfortable (I'm not into detailed descriptions of violence, not just in YA, anywhere and while I respect author's freedom of speech and the fact their story needs to contain these scenes, if they make me uncomfortable, I'll stop reading. Wed, 02 Nov 2011 19:19:41 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_412721 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_412721 Coffeedrinker No one is going to shoot your head off for sticking with you personal set of beliefs and opinions regarding sexuality. Freedom is also about your freedom to choose what you prefer. However... ... there is a however. You say "and (I) advise my peers to not read it." I take exception with that. That's the one sentence in your post which riles me, and that very much. If you decide on your own and for yourself you want to stay a virgin until marriage, that's fine. Preaching to others and telling them what's good or not good for THEM, is not. Period. That's not acceptable, especially regarding such an important matter. If you wish to be left alone in regard of your decisions, then really have the good manners and grant others the same grace. Thu, 03 Nov 2011 04:11:24 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_423300 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_423300 Coffeedrinker Seconding it as well. I finally shed my qualms as to how to write the scenes. Some of the samples equal what I had in mind, so there. Thu, 03 Nov 2011 04:38:12 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_423634 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_423634 Lempicka I really don't like reading about sex in stories, but that's mostly a personal preference thing rather than any moral reasons or such. Just as the above poster said, it makes me feel kind of detached from the characters and events, and I tend to stop relating to/empathizing with characters if they have sex. I think that's because I'm virtually asexual and kind of a child at heart, so my mind tends to wrinkle its metaphorical nose and say things like 'Eww, yucky gunky grown-up stuff!". Not a very mature attitude to have, but it's an instinctive/reflexive reaction I have no control over. I have absolutely no problem with people having/enjoying sex, I just don't particularly want to read about it any more than I would want to read about someone cutting their toenails or shaving their armpits. Of course I know that I'm not the norm and plenty of people would like to read novels with sex in them - I'm just explaining why I'm not one of them. I wouldn't advise someone against reading a book with sex in it, knowing that, *however* - if a book has excessive and gratuitous sex and rape scenes, I would warn people about reading it. After watching and enjoying the Legend of the Seeker fantasy tv series immensely, I wanted to check out the books. Unfortunately the first book alone was packed full of excessive, graphic, violent and utterly gratuitous torture, sex and rape scenes to such an extent that I'd edge away from the author if I bumped into him in public. It's one thing to have sex in your stories if it's relevant to the plot and characters, but it's quite another thing when disturbing levels of violent sexual abuse are crammed in for no apparent reason, such as was the case in those books. I tend to turn away from books with sex in them because of my own personality, but some books read like the literary equivalent of a snuff film, and I really don't think people should be reading them. YMMV I guess, that's just my opinion. Thu, 03 Nov 2011 04:53:25 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_423860 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_423860 thelazyafternoon I'm totally okay with sex scenes in YA books as long as it's there for a reason and not just gratuitous (which I'm sure has been mentioned on here). If it's being written for the sake of trying to get the reader aroused, then it's no longer YA (or whatever), it's erotic fiction. That's not what I'm going for when I write or read YA. I'm going for a connection to the main characters, and if a scene is written that helps me obtain a better understanding of them or the plot, then yes, I'm all for it. I actually wrote a romantic scene for my NaNo yesterday, and it's probably high PG-13 but it's not there just because I feel like having the MCs make out. It's showing the development of their changing dynamic and ends (fades to black) before the actual sexual act, but it's very implied what's about to happen. I think that's what I enjoy reading the most in YA when it comes to sex scenes. If I've grown attached to the characters, I'd like to have some sort of room to imagine what happens than being told every single little thing. Thu, 03 Nov 2011 07:25:18 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_426742 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_426742 jefflion Um... Am I the only one here who doesn't see regular sex and rape as the same level of "warning triggers"? I always imagined rape as a violence theme, not sex theme. Because, psychologically and physically, rape is about the violence and control, and not sex. You don't write about rape if you want to include sex in your story; you write about rape when you want to include violence. It should go without saying, right? But there ARE authors who just don't understand there's a huge line between sexual violence and consensual sex. Think about all of those 70s romance novels where men regularly rape the heroines who end up liking it so much to the point they want to marry their rapist. I think this is a bad thing to do. Hey, I'm all for psychological analysis of characters, and I know sexuality is complex so I'm ok with reading about characters who confuse date rape with consensual sex - just please, authors, don't promote it as the height of romance! Similarly, I don't like authors who equate healthy, consensual sex with violence or something bad. I mean, rape can be a powerful theme, but you write about it when you want to explore the violence, not sex. Having a rape in the story doesn't mean there's sex; it means there's violence. This is not what I meant when I talked about including sex scenes in your novel. Thu, 03 Nov 2011 07:33:54 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_426934 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_426934 Coffeedrinker I haven't read those novels, but Wikipedia does NOT have them down as YA, instead genres cited are High fantasy, Action, Adventure, Romance. So this is adult fiction which a faction of adults actually do like very much, and I am afraid you are judgemental by turning or trying to turn people away from that. If it is published and acclaimed, as that series is beyond doubt, you can be sure it is a) no snuff or equivalent to it and b) your perception is not necessarily that of others. If I may hazard a guess, it most likely IS your sexual orientation which causes a perception problem there. It quite simply never is a good idea to decide what the next person may do or read unless it is really outside of established laws and even then things may still be debatable. ;-) As I stated above, I can understand the stance of someone who is very religious or very asexual (there are asexual writers I've read however, who write absolutely delicious slash for instance, so this goes to show that here as well people simply are different from each other one can never paint them all with the same colour). And I can respect that, and in all reality no one twists anyone's hands to read something they do not like or which makes them sick. It's a tit for tat thing. ;-) That said, I just said something similar to someone who ranted against Twilight (which has completely other problems, more in the craft department) for extolling the virtue of virginity. I'd never advise anyone to stay a virgin, but I also wouldn't condemn someone who writes about this (actually one of the MCs in my current book is one, and not a typical one either). Thu, 03 Nov 2011 07:51:12 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_427352 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_427352 Coffeedrinker Yes and no. You are mixing a few things, which mostly have nothing to do with YA though. Rape is rape, it is sexual violence and a crime. It is also a sexual act (there's no way around this), but certainly not one you mean when you talk about teens having sex, and definitely not the way most talked about sexuality here. Rape is of course not consensual. Some people do feel aroused by fictious sexual violence, within fanfiction that genre is called "non-con." I do not think it has any business within YA! BUT - this is not equivalent with these writers saying rape is okay. They don't, they write about sexual fantasies. Which is why their stuff really doesn't belong into non-adult hands. All that said, I have recently written a rape scene in a YA novel, because there are teens who get raped and this was a novel about one who was. Was it in any way like what I discussed in this thread? Hell, no! So yes, these two should definitely NOT be mixed up nilly willy! Thu, 03 Nov 2011 08:06:18 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_427703 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_427703 Coffeedrinker Why is there no edit button? Sigh. What I meant was, normal teenage sex is definitely neither rape (as in criminal sexual violence), NOR is normal teenage sex related to non-consensual sexual fantasies. All three variants are distinct of each other, the last has absolutely no business in YA because it is erotica, and rape needs to be written as rape, and not on the same level as a willing sexual act. A good YA novel dealing with rape is by the way Speak. Thu, 03 Nov 2011 08:09:44 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_427779 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_427779 Lempicka [quote]I haven't read those novels, but Wikipedia does NOT have them down as YA, instead genres cited are High fantasy, Action, Adventure, Romance.[/quote] I NEVER said it was YA. Please don't put words in my mouth. I was talking about sex in fiction in general. I have yet to read a YA book with sex in it, so I had no option but to draw upon a different genre to give my example. [quote]So this is adult fiction which a faction of adults actually do like very much[/quote] A number of adults actually do like child pornography very much. The fact that people enjoy a thing does not make that thing acceptable. [quote]and I am afraid you are judgemental by turning or trying to turn people away from that.[/quote] That's your opinion of me, though I personally do not think it's accurate. Calling me judgmental for saying "Dude, these books are pretty graphic - they've got women being violently raped almost every five pages and children being abused and tortured. I'd seriously avoid reading it unless you have the stomach for it." ... is pretty judgmental in itself. [quote] If it is published and acclaimed, as that series is beyond doubt, you can be sure it is a) no snuff or equivalent to it[/quote] ... I fail to see the logic here. Just because something is published and popular, then its content is automatically not violent and sick? So ... the Saw films aren't violent and sick just because they are published media and popular, despite causing people to faint in the cinema? Something being published is no qualifier for quality or content, and there are countless idiotic and banal tv shows that are nevertheless immensely popular. In times past the public used to go and watch prisoners beheaded by guillotine, and they would cheer at the sight. Such things were popular, yet I still despair at the thought of humans howling with glee at the sight of a person being decapitated. [quote]b) your perception is not necessarily that of others.[/quote] ... I'll respond to this by quoting my own previous post, since you seem to have missed or ignored this: [quote]YMMV I guess, that's just my opinion.[/quote] [quote] If I may hazard a guess, it most likely IS your sexual orientation which causes a perception problem there.[/quote] Yes. I detest a series of books crammed with violent and graphic rape and torture because I am asexual. That makes *perfect* sense to me. Sorry. Sarcasm is really uncalled for, but I think my temper might be getting the better of me. [quote]It quite simply never is a good idea to decide what the next person may do or read[/quote] True, but at what point did I begin deciding for people? I do not recall ever doing so. I *do* recall *warning* people about a book's content and having a low opinion of people who both choose to read and enjoy such content, but that is hardly the same as me making the decision for them to outright not read it. If someone wants to read books like that, go right ahead, knock yourself out. I personally don't think you should, because I find it reprehensible, but I'm certainly not about to deprive anybody of their free will and right to decide. Bottom line is, if a friend of mine came to me and asked me about one of those books, I'd wrinkle my nose at the thing and advise them against reading it. If they asked me why, I'd say because they are full of gratuitous violence, gore, torture and rape, and I personally don't find any of that enjoyable in the least. If they still wanted to read it I wouldn't stop them, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to give them my opinion about it and explain why I wouldn't read it if I were them. Thu, 03 Nov 2011 09:03:53 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_429183 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_429183 jefflion I'm not against rape in fiction. It's sure an intriguing subject. But writing about rape in YA is NOT writing about sex. That's what I was saying. As for rape fantasies, I don't see them as part of YA so I don't think they're relevant for this discussion. Thu, 03 Nov 2011 09:13:40 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_429408 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_429408 Coffeedrinker [quote]I NEVER said it was YA. Please don't put words in my mouth. I was talking about sex in fiction in general. I have yet to read a YA book with sex in it, so I had no option but to draw upon a different genre to give my example.[/quote] I didn't suggest you said that, I pointed out that it isn't - in a discussion about sex within YA. [quote]A number of adults actually do like child pornography very much. The fact that people enjoy a thing does not make that thing acceptable. [/quote] You can be quite sure that any published and generally acclaimed Fantasy and Adventure series is no child porn. So comparing apples and oranges isn't really helpful there, I'd say- [quote] I'd seriously avoid reading it unless you have the stomach for it." and stating you find anyone reprehensible who enjoys reading them.... is pretty judgmental in itself.[/quote] You may not like to hear it, but it is. The "I'd avoid it" and "you are reprehensible if you read and like that" part is definitely judgemental and trying to live someone else's life for him or her. There's nothing wrong with saying "I didn't like that every 5 pages a woman was raped and children were abused." That helps your opposite make his or her OWN decision. There's also nothing wrong saying "I hated that so much that I cannot give this book any kind of recommendation, it's awful in my opinion." Saying "avoid it" is deciding things for people or at least trying to do that. It's a fine line. And we are currently treading very close to wholescale censorship, especially with regard to descriptions and books containing violence and sexual violence. Censorship is never a positive thing. [quote]the Saw films aren't violent and sick just because they are published media and popular, despite causing people to faint in the cinema?[/quote] If people faint while watching a movie they misjudged themselves. It happened in with "Alien" and it happened with the 1930ies "Frankenstein" as well. Loads of teenagers fainted while watching the Beatles perform. Or the Stones. Or Michael Jackson. The Saw movies are for adults. If those misjudge themselves and their own reactions, it is quite simply their private problem, and definitely no cause to ban a movie which others obviously enjoy. That doesn't make the Saw series a snuff movie either. One of the most disturbing "shows" I ever saw was the aftermath of the last pope's death and his burial. Shall I now say that showing papal burials should be forbidden because I (and most assuredly more people than just me) found it disturbing? Shall I tell people to abstain from watching that? The point is that the descriptions you dislike might be enjoyable for a large variety of reasons. Some of which are possibly sexual, some are differently motivated. What you may not be aware of is that some of that is a perfectly legit expression of personal sexual orientation EXACTLY like you have yours or a homosexual or lesbian person has hers/his. So while you might find it reprehensible, you at the same time make a mighty negative judgement of the sexual orientation of others, and no, I am most definitely not talking about pedophiles. So you need to ask yourself wheter you want to do that, and possibly hurt someone who may not yet have come out to you. And to make this clear, I so far didn't think you would be someone who would want to do that. That is why I pointed out that you are doing it, most likely without realising you do. Thu, 03 Nov 2011 09:41:06 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_430128 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_430128 Coffeedrinker Yep, fully agree with you there. Thu, 03 Nov 2011 10:04:21 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_430739 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_430739 Lempicka [quote]You can be quite sure that any published and generally acclaimed Fantasy and Adventure series is no child porn. So comparing apples and oranges isn't really helpful there, I'd say-[/quote] So child abuse (which child pornography is) is not at all similar to children being brutally tortured and molested? Not even a little similar? ... remind me never to ask you for a piece of fruit. [quote]I didn't suggest you said that, I pointed out that it isn't - in a discussion about sex within YA.[/quote] People have strayed further off topics than I did without being pulled up about it. [quote]You may not like to hear it, but it is. The "I'd avoid it" and "you are reprehensible if you read and like that" part is definitely judgemental and trying to live someone else's life for him or her.[/quote] Okay then. So if I have a low opinion of someone that reads and enjoys graphic rape, torture and child abuse, I'm judgmental. You know what? If that's the case I plead guilty with great enthusiasm. Anyone that enjoys that kind of thing is not a nice person. In my opinion. If I have to carry the title 'Judgmental' over having such a view, I do so gladly. [quote]There's nothing wrong with saying "I didn't like that every 5 pages a woman was raped and children were abused."[/quote] Really? Because I got the impression you thought so by calling me judgmental for saying as much. [quote]Saying "avoid it" is deciding things for people or at least trying to do that.[/quote] No, not quite. In order for it to be classed as 'deciding' for them, I would have to be able to actually make their decision for them, which I do not have the ability to do. I can advise them against reading it, but that is the extent of my abilities. Now, if I had the authority to pull the books off the market and shelves, *that* would be deciding for them. Simply expressing my view that I find the books disgusting and saying that they shouldn't read them is just me offering my viewpoint and opinion. It is NOT making the decision for them, because they still have the option to decide for themselves whether or not to actually read the books. [quote]And we are currently treading very close to wholescale censorship, especially with regard to descriptions and books containing violence and sexual violence. Censorship is never a positive thing.[/quote] As I said, repeatedly, I would not pull the books off the shelves and ban them from being published. I would write up a review in a professional media outlet stating my opinion of them and advising people against reading them, however. One is censorship, the other is not. In your apparent fervour to condemn the former, you seem to be mistaking the latter for censorship as well. Or at the very least implying that I am suggesting censorship when I am not. [quote]The Saw movies are for adults. If those misjudge themselves and their own reactions, it is quite simply their private problem, and definitely no cause to ban a movie which others obviously enjoy.[/quote] I never suggested banning a movie. I'm starting to get the impression that you are constructing a strawman version of my argument to attack rather than my actual argument. If so, please stop doing so. What I claimed was that the films were violent (you're not seriously going to dispute that?) and sick (in my opinion, again YMMV). If someone enjoys watching graphic, gratuitous torture and violence, I will have a low opinion of that person. If someone watched one of those movies and warned me against watching it because of the content, then I would thank them and avoid watching it, especially given what I've heard about it. I in turn would be only too happy to return the favour to someone else by warning them about such graphic content, and I would advise against watching it. It would still be up to them if they did or not, and I would still make my recommendation regardless, because I am a human being with views and opinions I wish to express. [quote]One of the most disturbing "shows" I ever saw was the aftermath of the last pope's death and his burial. Shall I now say that showing papal burials should be forbidden because I (and most assuredly more people than just me) found it disturbing? Shall I tell people to abstain from watching that?[/quote] Now who is comparing apples and oranges? Or do you want to make the claim that his burial was akin to watching a child beaten to a bloody pulp and a woman being raped over and over? Some things are not subjective. Abuse is not subjective. Some people would be disturbed by that funeral, others would not. In either case I would not 'pass judgement' as you would call it. However anyone who enjoys watching or reading graphic and gratuitous abuse is, to put it quite simply, a 'bad' person as far as I am concerned. Call me whatever you like for thinking that. [quote]The point is that the descriptions you dislike might be enjoyable for a large variety of reasons.[/quote] In WHAT universe can child abuse be enjoyed? I shudder to think. And anyone that *enjoys* reading graphic rape is, IMO someone I would want to see locked up. [quote]What you may not be aware of is that some of that is a perfectly legit expression of personal sexual orientation EXACTLY like you have yours or a homosexual or lesbian person has hers/his.[/quote] Again, I must say that you are far more in danger of comparing apples and oranges than I. How does rape and abuse remotely compare to sexual orientation? Your logic utterly bewilders me. [quote] So while you might find it reprehensible[/quote] Show of hands - does anyone here NOT find child abuse and rape reprehensible? Please raise your hands if this is so (or if you want to be nitpicky, just type a response to that affect). [quote]and no, I am most definitely not talking about pedophiles.[/quote] Of course not. Just people who *enjoy* reading graphic, gratuitous depictions of rape, torture and child abuse. [quote]So you need to ask yourself wheter you want to do that, and possibly hurt someone who may not yet have come out to you.[/quote] Yes I do, and if I hurt anyone who *does* enjoy reading such things, I will not personally lose any sleep over it. I would also fervently hope I never meet such people. [quote]And to make this clear, I so far didn't think you would be someone who would want to do that.[/quote] Wait ... you didn't think I was the kind of person who would find such people (^as described above repeatedly to drive the point home) reprehensible? Good grief, in that case I am very glad to have cleared that up for you. Just in case anyone is in any doubt, I want to make my position clear - If you are the kind of person that chooses to read and subsequently enjoys reading graphic depictions of rape, torture and child abuse, then I do NOT like you as a person and I consider you to be NOT NICE at all. I hereby look down my nose on any such people and view them with the same revulsion I share for people that enjoy child pornography, because they are both just as bad in my mind. Thu, 03 Nov 2011 10:27:06 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_431394 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_431394 Coffeedrinker End of discussion here for me. I cannot converse about literature and arts and reviewing both with someone who equates this with reality. Sorry, I'm out of this right there. Thu, 03 Nov 2011 11:12:38 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_432602 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_432602 apriljoanne I have a similar question/dilemma so rather than start a new thread I decided I would post here. I don't have so much a problem with the sex scenes, I wrote that one already and I believe it came out very well. My problem is with writing scenes with other intimate acts without going into too much detail but without being too vague as to what is actually happening. I feel as if it's important to my character's story to include, because it kind of is showing her progression through life and different encounters with various men. But I can't seem to find a tasteful way of explaining the night she gave her first hand job, got fingered, etc. I'm having a hard time with it because I feel like it's somewhat important to her story, but I don't want it to detract from the overall mood and direction of the story. I hope that makes sense. I could really use some advice as to how to write those scenes, if at all. At the moment I've only eluded to the acts that have taken place but as it is written currently, a reader really would have no way of knowing for certain what exactly happened other than that they didn't have sex. Thu, 03 Nov 2011 12:58:12 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_435674 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_435674 jefflion It's down to your style, but I think it's ok to openly say what's going on. "She gave him a hand job" is a quick way of saying it, if you don't want to go into details. You might describe her feelings and the way she reacts to the act. YA sex shouldn't be detailed in sense of erotica, but anatomic details are ok. Just see Forever. True, some people will get offended, but there will always be people offended by anything you write. You can't please everybody. Thu, 03 Nov 2011 13:22:23 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_436405 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_436405 Coffeedrinker http://acrowesnest.blogspot.com/2008/12/marianna-lets-get-it-on-sex-scenes-in.html This link is really, really helpful! Thu, 03 Nov 2011 14:22:54 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_438544 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_438544 apriljoanne Thanks for the link, definitely some helpful information here though I still feel as though some of it is a bit more explicit than I want. I'm going to have to play around with the scenes for awhile I guess. Writing in the male perspective doesn't help lol Third person would definitely have been easier. Gah. Thu, 03 Nov 2011 14:41:09 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_439150 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_439150 apriljoanne Very true. Thanks for the advice. Thu, 03 Nov 2011 14:41:44 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_439165 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_439165 jefflion Maybe this is just me (and please don't think it refers to your post), but I often find the less detailed scenes more explicit. Especially when author uses euphemisms so you're not quite sure what's going on. This might not be prevalent in YA, but I find the word "manhood" (that many romance authors use) to be much, much more explicit than the anatomically correct word for male genitalia. I guess what I'm trying to say is that mentioning body parts might not be explicit on itself. But it all depends on what you're trying to accomplish with a scene. Thu, 03 Nov 2011 15:42:33 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_441259 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_441259 Kia_Zi_Shiru My normal series have no sex, there is some grinding but no real sex. But it does have other heavier topics like abuse and illnesses. Even though I like them making out I have no feeling for them actually having sex because of body issues and stuff. (age of characters: around 18/19) My NaNo work has about 4k in already a sex scene, though with clothes on. It's not about the sex, it's about feeling and about establishment of control in the story. (age of characters: 23-26) I'm not comfortable writing sex scenes, though very comfortable reading about them, unless done wrong. I think it's wrong to have someone who has no moral background (religious or otherwise) to go about their "first time" being all moral and feeling it's all wrong. If you get yourself into the situation, get yourself out of it. I am not comfortable reading books with strongly religious characters, I'm not religious and have not grown up with religion as being part of my life. BUT I do think sometimes there needs to be works that can also be read by this group of people. I know there are teen series that have no sex in them, I can remember reading one or two of them. Usually it focuses more on actually getting through hardships of the relationship then about how they want to get laid. Ofcourse, you also have the group I myself belong to ;) we like reading about sex and people enjoying sex, but we do want story. Fri, 04 Nov 2011 03:45:18 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_456951 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_456951 Safkhet But we always recommend or don't recommend books. FairyoftheFlames doesn't like books with sex scenes, so she would advise her friends not to read it. I don't think she's saying she'll tell them they mustn't have sex and sex is bad. She's just saying that she doesn't like that book. Maybe for the reason of sex, but is that really any different from telling someone, "Oh, no, don't read that, it's written horribly" or "The MC's a jerk, don't bother." I just found it a little harsh to call it 'preaching' just because she's saying she's not going to advise her friends to read a book she didn't like. Fri, 04 Nov 2011 08:52:58 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_462150 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_462150 Safkhet What about the fact that sex very often isn't nice or wholesome? I'm a teenager. I know how teenagers view sex. And we don't view it as an awful taboo. We don't think sex is evil. However, feeding teenagers that sex is purely wonderful is not all that great of a message. Will your MC learn about STDs and unwanted pregnancies? Fri, 04 Nov 2011 12:22:48 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_467090 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_467090 baka_kit [quote=Coffeedrinker] If I may hazard a guess, it most likely IS your sexual orientation which causes a perception problem there.[/quote] Nope! I'm omnisexual, polyamorous, kink-curious, and I was completely squicked by Terry Goodkind, too. The first book contains an extended sequence where the protagonist is tortured, including sexually, to the point where he's so broken that he begs for it. For some strange reason, I never read any of the subsequent books. Just a data point ... Tue, 15 Nov 2011 15:32:06 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_715353 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_715353 LDRobwell [quote=Safkhet] What about the fact that sex very often isn't nice or wholesome? I'm a teenager. I know how teenagers view sex. And we don't view it as an awful taboo. We don't think sex is evil. However, feeding teenagers that sex is purely wonderful is not all that great of a message. Will your MC learn about STDs and unwanted pregnancies? [/quote] I've changed plots since this post, so it's not really applicable. So much of what we try to teach kids about sex is the dangers and pains. It's silly. Sex isn't magical and other worldly but once you get started and you have positive and negative experiences you get comfortable. In the story I was planning the protag would have experiences, some good, some bad and she would have feared stds and pregnancy but it wasn't going to tell kids that fear should sup them from fucking or that there is no way to minimize risk. Tue, 15 Nov 2011 22:19:17 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_720865 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_720865 AnnEliseMonte Ugh, the word "manhood" in sex scenes makes me shudder. That's edging into purple prose territory. Wed, 16 Nov 2011 05:33:04 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_723518 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_723518 JasmineAdero I think that giving detail of how it starts is enough and then flipping to the end is enough or giving a hint that is it happening bad then letting ti go at that. I have been known to write sex in fanfiction, but i limit it. I never go overboard on the sex. Wed, 16 Nov 2011 07:48:11 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_724757 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_724757 jefflion I breaks the mood and it makes me giggle. Wed, 16 Nov 2011 08:22:17 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_725127 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_725127 a.j.d I just came across this thread, and I'm glad there's a diversity of opinions -- because young teens (and most of us) need to read through a lot of books before finding something that clicks. The questions of taste and morality are so personal that when I struggled with the idea of a 13-year-old character just feeling attraction she'd never in her life felt before. It just seems so young, but then I think back to my experiences as a kid, and talk to friends about this. As for graphic sex, I wasn't interested then and I'm not that interested now (even in erotica, there is the good, the bad and the puke), and for me, a lot of my turnoff has to do with vocabulary. You don't have to be a virgin or religious to immediately disconnect when reading graphic sex scenes, at the incredibly creative ways there is to describe body parts. Which goes back to diversity of needs. Another virgin might really want to read that, because it's the only access they have (e.g. no one talks about sex with her or him). As a writer, I keep asking myself what makes sense in the context of what I am writing, my characters, their inner lives,, and I try to imagine the kind of person who might want to read my work. I think I'm writing YA but my MC is 13 years old. But if it turns out to be adult fiction, then that's what it will be, but I would hope a 13 year might read it. I learned a lot from books at that age -- but I didn't learn about sex from books. And, if publishing is the question, a good editor will most likely guide you through the market-driven process. I say, write the book you would have wanted to read at that age, and write it how you wanted to read it, if you can remember. Judy Blume was my hero in so many ways, mostly by making me feel normal -- and not by trying to tell me what would be normal behaviour, gesture, script, whatever for a sex scene or sexuality. Trying to figure out what teens are thinking about this today probably won't lead to any new insights. I recommend watching the film Kids if you want to see one set of "limits" for teen sex (not PG-13!). Thanks to everyone for sharing their input. It was enlightening! Fri, 18 Nov 2011 18:29:56 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_760380 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_760380 LDRobwell [quote=Safkhet] But we always recommend or don't recommend books. FairyoftheFlames doesn't like books with sex scenes, so she would advise her friends not to read it. I don't think she's saying she'll tell them they mustn't have sex and sex is bad. She's just saying that she doesn't like that book. Maybe for the reason of sex, but is that really any different from telling someone, "Oh, no, don't read that, it's written horribly" or "The MC's a jerk, don't bother." I just found it a little harsh to call it 'preaching' just because she's saying she's not going to advise her friends to read a book she didn't like. [/quote] There is a huge difference between "this book is poorly written" and "don't read that book, it has SEX" Sat, 19 Nov 2011 01:49:37 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_764107 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_764107 AnnEliseMonte YA is not about teaching lessons. A handful of "issue books" are out there to do it, but most YA novels don't need to focus on a message so unless it's important to the plot, having an STD or pregnancy come out of sex is unnecessary. I'm also a teenager and encounter a variety of attitudes about sex, from people who sleep around to people who call those people names. For my part, I tend to mention condoms or something if I'm going to write a sex scene so I don't have to worry about moral guardians getting their panties in a twist. Sat, 19 Nov 2011 03:23:56 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_764479 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_764479 AnnEliseMonte Urgh, instruction manual sex scenes are the worst. The problem with them isn't necessarily the sex; it's because the sex is poorly-written. Sat, 19 Nov 2011 03:25:15 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_764486 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_764486 jefflion I think people have different ideas what is graphic and /or explicit. I don't think Judy Blume's Forever was explicit (graphic?) in any erotica/porn sense, for example. Sat, 19 Nov 2011 06:12:55 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_765279 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_765279 Coffeedrinker I actually found Judy Blume's Forever quite shallow. I had great trouble following the motivations behind the characters' actions and was shocked at the immaturity of the FMC. All that was so unpleasant and preachy, that the sex was irrelevant. Sat, 03 Dec 2011 09:17:52 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_927880 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_927880 Coffeedrinker Which confirms what I said. For one thing kink-curious is definitely not the same as kinky, for another there's way more to be considered than being omnisexual or poly. Additionally, squicking (or triggering) for that matter may be a rather personal response. In view of the masses of people who absolutely love Goodkind, or read past these scenes without being squicked at all, and given that it has been said that there is a strong aversion to sexuality/sex per se, I'd say these reactions aren't even close to being a norm. Instead they are rare enough to be personal or political. Sat, 03 Dec 2011 09:28:25 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_927918 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_927918 jefflion Forever was shallow in plot and character development, but I do think it captures the teen relationships perfectly. (Well, not all teen relationships, but I know the type). They meet and are attracted to each other, even if they don't have so much in common. They start exploring their sexuality and they think they're so in love they will be together forever. Then a bit of a real life strikes (and a bit of more experience) and they break up. It happens fairly often. Though I do think that the last 1/4 of the book was rushed. Like she was out of ideas after they've finally had sex, so she wanted to end the novel as quickly as possible. Sun, 04 Dec 2011 19:36:13 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_934853 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_934853 baka_kit Just because someone has an unpopular opinion about a work of fiction doesn't mean that they have some kind of a "problem." (And I'm not sure how unpopular it actually is; I've run across sporkings of Goodkind's work more than once, and he's pretty notorious both for the Objectivist author tracts and a prose style that I've seen described as overwrought, as well as less complimentary things.) Really, <em>any</em> response to a work of fiction is going to be personal. Tue, 06 Dec 2011 03:40:51 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_941162 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_941162 beanza3 or Maidenhead... It's like... What? Especially when a character is... Non-virginal, and the word "maiden" creates... Confusion. :D Tue, 06 Dec 2011 11:44:01 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_942412 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_942412 beanza3 In defense of Kristian Cashore, you have to look at her characters. Fire, for instance, was a human-monster who didn't want any other human-mosters in the world. because they're bad. It's like if Adolph Hitler's mom (or Stalin's) could look and know the destruction her child would produce, wouldn't you want her to not have kids, have an abortion, whatever. She would've LOVED to have kids, but she didn't want to have that at the expense of the world. She didn't want to marry Asher because Asher was a man-whore and she didn't love him like that (she was young when she started a relationship with him, how was she to know romatic love from friend love?). I'm pretty sure Fire will marry Brigan in time, (unless I'm forgetting something) so... Graceling has a complelety different character. Katsa doesn't want anyone. She doesn't want to need anyone. She can't really raise children. She ended up falling for Po, but... She can't be bound into something like marriage, it isn't for her. And, she's a teen. She isn't going to raise a kid then anyway. Anyway, Ms. Cashore has stated that her MC's opinions are not the same as hers. This is obvious by her utterly different characters. Fire wants love and a family but it seems impossible. Katsa doesn't want it, but gets it anyway. And since the book is set in a fantasy world, it doesn't have Christian morals, so... sex before marriage is a thing created mainly in Christian morality. Can you blame an author for being true to her universe? The rape thing in Fire... You've got two tolitarian dudes who don't care about pretty much anyone. You've got a beautiful girl who inspires a whole mess of emotions, including the worst. It's not exactly rocket science. Fire's period. It's an important plot point, it affects the way she interacts with the world. I wouldn't say the timing is based on it, it happens a few times as far as I remember, and a lot of time is skipped so... But it's natural, and... It's like getting mad at the author for having her character get sick, or go to the bathroom. It's gotta happen eventually, we all know it. And if Nancy Drew finds a clue when she enters the bathroom, so be it, it's a plot point. Your view on sex scenes is fine and dandy, but you just picked the wrong series, so... I had to say something, since she's one of my favorite authors. However, I feel as though I should remind you that the Bible has probably more sex, rape, violence in it (I should know, I'm Catholic) and... You seem to be religious (forgive me of my assumption if I'm wrong) and so you probably like that book. Also, most writers don't stand on a soapbox for their stories... A lot of my characters have radically different views and personalities then me. And reading books that express different views isn't bad, it can be a way to learn about people different from you. I'd hate reading a book about someone just like me though, so, I might be biased. :D Happy reading, but... Like I said, one of my favorite series's. You're entitled to your own opinion, but I had to oppose it with me view to even it out.... Wed, 14 Dec 2011 11:22:56 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_972740 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_972740 audri1994 Okay so I might be a little late to this disscusion but I JUST read Graceling and I most definitely agree with FairyoftheFlames. I'm the same when it comes to books like this. And just for everyone who was disscussing this book being in the YA genre or not, I'm not saying it is or isn't, but it was found in the YA sections at both FairyoftheFlames and my own library. Personally I think it's directed to older audiences. But being nearly collage age myself I was kind of surprised that this book was in the YA section. I won't go into my critique of the novel because my opinion differs greatly than most readers. But I will say that some readers (not all but there are some) like me, that will put down this (and other novels) because of the sex. I will say that I loved this book and I honestly did want to finish the other part of the story but I also quite frankly, didn't want to read the other half of the book after they had sex. Also I am a little surprised and a little disapointed at the content of some books that end up in the YA section of the library. I go there because I am a YA and I love reading. You would think that's pretty simple right? But I have to say I think the children's section is maybe the only place that's safe for readers like me who don't happen to like reading about sex. Now of course I'm not saying that there isn't sex in YA novels and I know that's not exactly the point of this thread but there is a really fine line between appropriate for collage age and YA's. And for that matter middle school kids. I know I wasn't that old when I went from the kid's section to YA. Fri, 13 Jan 2012 21:39:24 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_1058414 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_1058414 audri1994 I should add though that it's not just for any moral reason I don't like reading about sex. I just happen to be one of those people that really don't like reading about it. Fri, 13 Jan 2012 21:44:43 -0800 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_1058439 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=2#forum_thread_comment_1058439 RogueWolf I have come to this problem time and again. The reality is that sex happens, and teens are starting earlier and earlier. The issue is the adults that happen to read the book, and feel it is too mature for their children. I have a "Shut the Door" policy that I've inacted. While my characters may engage in sexual acts, they aren't in your face, or anything the average teen whouldn't see in a movie or television show, I 'shut the door' when it starts to get graphic, or to use tv terms, I pan away. Fri, 23 Mar 2012 12:10:42 -0700 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_1232939 http://www.nanowrimo.org/en/forums/young-adult-children-s-lit/threads/6105?page=1#forum_thread_comment_1232939