YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

jefflion — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 10:21:39 -0700

I remember a similar thread from the past year but I can't remember the cliches discussed. I think it's good to know which chilces are around, overused and abused, as well as those cliches that people actually like. So, which are the cliches you absolutely hate to see in YA? And what are some YA cliches that you don't mind, or even prefer to see them in YA novels? There's a thread about the 25 overused things in YA stories, but people use it to check their own story for said 25 cliches, so I don't think it's the same thread as this one.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

jefflion — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 10:38:21 -0700

I think the number one cliche I hate is the weak-ordinary female / dangerous bad boy romance. It can be in any form (paranormal, Twilight-like or realistic, nerdy girl falls for a bad boy). It's not that I hate any of these on itself, but too much is too much. Especially since things don't go like that in real life: admit it, when was the last time the most popular guy in the school fell in love with a nerdy shy girl over a sexy cheerleader? Right. Speaking of which, mean, bitchy cheerleaders vs intelligent, quirky protagonists. "True love" at first sight (in the sophomore year of high school). Cliches I don't mind: - Issue books (drugs, rape, alcohol, etc.), as long as they are well written and non-preachy. Not so much of a cliche, but I know some people are sick of those. I'm fine with it. -Sex as a rite de passage -First person POV narration

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

bulldoze — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 11:03:12 -0700

I'm really over love triangles. From Twilight to The Vampire Diaries and the Secret Circle to anything by Cassandra Clare to the Demon's Lexicon. I actually read a book recently where both of the two main females were involved in two separate love triangles with the other four main male characters. Enough is enough, YA. And it's always an ordinary female in between two hot guys, too. It would be almost a relief at this point to see a boy stuck between two girls or, better yet, a complete end to love triangles for a while. I also hate female protagonists who make a big deal of how plain they are, especially when compared to another female character, but every single guy she comes across either falls in love with her or makes note of her being pretty. It was relatable at first, but now it's overused. As for things I like, I'm still a fan of characters falling for their best friends (since that's falling out of favor what with the whole bickering-bad-boy-romance thing being big). And I love it when characters mess up in a big way. Like their character flaw causes actual problems in the book instead of just being there for the sake of pretending they're not perfect.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Raquelin — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 11:40:46 -0700

Is overly-snarky first person (and oftentimes present) cliche yet? Why not? Can it be? I am so tired of it. Occasionally I can stomach it, but I would really like a nice third-limited. Let alone omniscient. Love triangles. I refuse. Supernatural creature romance. No. I can deal with ghosts and zombies, but that's about it. Maybe deities. But NO MORE vampires/mermaids/fairies/werewolves/unicorns. Okay, maybe I could do a unicorn. Mysterious dreary settings. There is more to the world than Maine or the Pacific Northwest. There are more weather conditions than rain and cold. Let's see something set in Kansas or the Sahara or something. Cliches I'm okay with: Red hair, smart sisters, hot best friends, most things that actually happen in high school or any given insular setting.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Beacon80 — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 11:52:20 -0700

Now I'm all self-conscious that my story takes place in Maine. (just kidding)

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Loki Mischief-Maker — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 11:58:18 -0700

Most of what I read/write is YA fantasy, so I know I'm working with a different set of cliches than most mainstream/realistic YA, but anyway: I'm sick of protagonists that wow/surpass the adult parental/mentor figures right out of the gate. It is more than possible to write an excellent fantasy story about a teenage who is at about the skill level they'd be at given their age. Where did all of the students trying to fix their mistakes or the journeymen getting into trouble and realizing that they're no longer directly under a master craftsmen to pull them back out? Heck, where are the minor noblewomen being introduced to court for the first time and landing smack in the middle of conspiracy? I'm also sick of girls disguising themselves as boys. The Sweet Polly Oliver story is tired. Start your world's feminist revolution more openly, please. And can we please, please have a YA urban fantasy without a romantic subplot? Somehow, some way? Please? Heck, even a subplot about maintaining an established romance rather than starting one would be welcome. Cliches I don't actually mind -- farmboys, princesses, magic that's far more powerful than it has any right to be, school stories, werewolves.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

brianarants — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 11:58:44 -0700

I cannot stress how much I dislike love at first sight. Sometimes I read some really good novels but then the guy comes in and BAM! Girl falls head over heels. I mean really? What? Also, I just hate how the romance moves too fast. I just recently read a novel that I downloaded for free and it was pretty well written and had a nice female lead. But then it went downhill once the guy came into the picture. In 48 hours, she gushes about him and they already said they loved each other. .... No. Too fast, not happening. And romance gets annoying pretty fast when it moves fast. And when these characters fall for each other quickly, it seems that there's no further character development. I've seen it in countless novels. All the other characters get pushed away and the spotlight for the rest of the novel is the boring romance. I've read some really bad YA romance novels. Guess that's what I get for getting it for free. Ahh. There are some really good free ones out there, but very rare. :/ As for what I like; love triangles. I do, as long as it's well developed. And it's true, there's too many love triangles surrounding a girl, I want a guy to go through it too. This may be happening in my story, but it's mere coincidence. I don't want it to be too ridiculous and overblown though.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

FlameRaven — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 11:59:03 -0700

"Okay, maybe I could do a unicorn." Have you seen Rampant? http://www.dianapeterfreund.com/books/unicorns/rampant/

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Lisiche — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 12:02:07 -0700

I hate useless adults. You know, there's usually a reason so-and-so with all these awards and medals has all those awards and metals. It's because they're a smart, competent, ambitious, responsible adult of their chosen life path. Your sixteen year old will not best them. This only works well in Legend of Galactic Heroes.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

andreamantis — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 13:20:31 -0700

I wish I could "like" posts because I totally agree with you! ;)

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

andreamantis — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 13:21:25 -0700

Oh, and I was replying to bulldoze - my comment kind of got posted in a weird spot. ;)

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

andreamantis — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 13:23:39 -0700

I'm doing first person POV, even though I prefer third person. But I think with my story I need to show a lot of the inner personality struggle, so first person makes more sense... But generally, I enjoy third person more...

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

andreamantis — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 13:30:16 -0700

I'm totally over the love triangles, too. And the girls who are so plain who automatically get the gorgeous guy but spend all of their time wondering why the guy likes them. And the girls who are so upset when they don't have a man or when their man leaves... And I know that killing off parents is a cliche but I think it's sometimes necessary in YA, because parents would get in the way of the story. Not very realistic, but sometimes you have to get the parents out of the way... I'm not really sure what cliches I like, though.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

uncreativecarly — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 14:44:41 -0700

This! Or when the parents are so weak and oblivious that they can't tell that their child is smoking crack or whatever and doing it right under their noses. The adults have to be characters too, as developed as the kids.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

jefflion — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 14:52:58 -0700

I agree, but the parents are always tricky to capture in YA novels. You need to get them out of the way so your teen characters can have their own adventure and solve their own problems. That's one of the reasons, I believe, that there are so many dead mothers and irresponsible parents in YA stories. Alternatively, this is why stories about boarding schools and field trips and summer camps are popular: there are no parents! But I do think making parents oblivious to what's going on is not a good idea, especially if there's no reason for their irresponsible behavior other than to get them out of the way and force YA characters to be on their own and solve their own problems.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

jefflion — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 14:57:10 -0700

Oh yes. Love triangles. Ugh. Well, I don't want to say I'd stop reading a story the moment the triangle appears, but seriously, that kind of plot doesn't make a good conflict, imo. It's just not exciting or inspiring or important enough, especially if it's obvious who will the girl (and it's always the girl) end up with. Reading about two girls in a love triangle with a guy MIGHT be a bit better, but it's often equally uninspiring. Plus, one of the girls is always a dumb slut with a hot body and another is smart and "speshul" so it's obvious who the guy ends up with. (We all know guys in YA stories always fall in love with quirky shy protagonists, unlike YA guys in reality).

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

KatBrown — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 15:44:25 -0700

As someone who lives in the Pacific Northwest, I would love to see someone who has actually been there write about it because it is NOT rainy/dreary/mysterious all of the time and some of us really like overcast days so it'd be great to see a character who maybe isn't so big a fan of dry heat and prefers the rain.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

incongruentaporia — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 16:03:36 -0700

What about love triangles involving a guy in the middle- a guy and a girl? In which the guy in the middle comes off as the stereotypical bi-sexual ho at first, the other guy is a fluffy guy but pretty much his best friend, and the girl being a normal (but not plain. just not... 'OMG I'm SO SHY. or I LIKE VIDEO GAMES I'M SPESHUL.). Would that be too bad?

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

lizo27 — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 16:13:18 -0700

I'm also completely over love triangles. And brooding, mysterious bad boys who are real a-holes to everybody but it's just because they have so much ANGST. And clumsiness as a character trait. And heroines who are described as "shy" and "plain" when they are clearly neither.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

brianarants — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 16:15:03 -0700

No need to be asking for the okay, we all have our own opinions about things. :] As I said before, I think love triangles can be delightful when written well. And we all know the girl in the middle of two guys thing. So that's pretty much what people are tired of seeing. A plain girl and two amazingly attractive guys. Yours is different and definitely fresh. I haven't seen a love triangle happen like that before. I just wanted to tell you that, even though you weren't asking me. I don't think you should feel discouraged about writing a love triangle!

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

jefflion — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 16:17:40 -0700

That variation is more interesting, because it's not overdone, and because people often assume heterosexuality if not proven otherwise (so it creates a potential for some conflict, character development, etc.) Still, I don't think it's sufficient to create a central conflict for the story, UNLESS we're talking about a serious, realistic, coming of age story that focuses on this issue alone. Not sure how to explain it. If story is about a MC growing up and developing as a character, him being in a love triangle is ok, if this situation is what makes him grow and develop. But if a story is about a MC discovering he's a werewolf who should save the planet, him being in a love triangle might be ok only if it's a minor subplot, but it's otherwise quite distracting. Especially if it's somehow made to be the most important thing in the story (that saving the world is somehow connected to the love triangle and MC's choice). No. Just... no.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

jefflion — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 16:26:08 -0700

Oh, that reminds me. "Speshul" characters (often females). Those are the girls who are perfectly normal and ordinary. There's NOTHING wrong with that, and being "ordinary" doesn't mean "lacking a character". But trying to make a character quirky and unique without really making her quirky and unique... It's very annoying. Things that don't make your character "unique": her favourite books and authors (Jane Austen, for example), her favorite bands and movies. The fact she doesn't wear makeup. The fact she's clumsy or can't sing. Or that her hobbies include reading, swimming and making cookies. Actually, all of these things MIGHT make a character quirky, but only if you choose preferences that truly reflect her as a person. For example, her fav books being instruction manuals and she likes to repair old TVs or something. But even these things don't make her "speshul" and "unique". They are more interesting and illustrative, but are not a substitute for actual characterization. Oh and yes, for some reason all these "speshul" girls whine about being plain and ordinary (which, face it, they basically are), but somehow all the boys are crazy about them.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

mariah125 — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 16:26:45 -0700

I agree with all of this! I'm definitely avoiding the love triangle this year - the main character actually has a male best friend who isn't secretly in love with her! I hate to admit there will be a bit of a triangle in the sequel - although it's not what you would expect! My MC's love interest has a best friend named Hannah (who used to be his friend with benefits before my MC came along), who develops a Romantic Two-Girl Friendship with my MC. So it's a literal love triangle - with connections between all three points. I've always found those fascinating. I like female protagonists who are ugly, know they are ugly, and no one else denies it. Not because it's relatable, but because it's funny! What bothers me is that people say they want "flawed" characters, but when an author gives them real flaws, they're accused of being "unlikeable" or "bad role models." It's impossible to win!

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

lizo27 — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 16:51:28 -0700

Re: "lacking a character": Exactly! What I find most irritating about many YA heroines is that they're ciphers--they have no personality to speak of beyond "shy" and "ordinary" but are inexplicably "spheshul" enough to warrant the interest of the damaged/brooding/supernatural MMC.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

incongruentaporia — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 17:00:19 -0700

It's a subplot actually- the guy in the middle is my drag queen character, the other male is his Ace- and it's one of those relationships where everyone is like, "Y'all should date now." and Shawn is against it for pretty much that reason- plus his fear of commitment at such a young age. And the girl is one who is oblivious to the fact that he's a drag-queen or even bi-sexual for a good part of the story. I guess I just don't want to fall into the case of being cliche- and I also don't want to fall into 'You are trying too hard'. Which I've gotten from a friend I was describing my character list to, but for that my response was mostly, "I don't know these people in particular- but I know these types of people. They're more prevalent in the community than you think."

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

lnelson8 — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 17:18:53 -0700

This is part of the character vs. characterization thing. "Characterization," i.e. laundry listing a character's physical traits, quirks, tics, speech foibles, hobbies, favorite books and movies, etc. can all help delineate him/her from other characters, but it doesn't really reflect who the character is as a person. "Character" is, pure and simple, that character's actions in certain situations. Those will tell you who the character really is.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

bulldoze — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 17:23:13 -0700

Oh my god, the male best friend who is "secretly" in love with the MC is another hated one of mine. Especially when the reader can figure it out in the first five seconds and yet the MC needs half the book to figure it out. I love Romantic two girl friendships! And that's a good point, I was actually thinking about that while I was typing it haha

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

jefflion — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 18:14:08 -0700

Here's one cliche I actually like: sympathetic, wacky grandmothers. Since parents are often uninterested in their child and her problems (or dead), MC goes to her grandmother for support and advice. Grandma is full of understanding and is quite liberal and open minded (often more than the parents), and gives MC much needed advice and support. I know it's a cliche, but I'm ok with this one (unless it's over the top). My grandmother was wacky and unique in many ways so I can picture this situation.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

AdrienEtienne — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 18:44:02 -0700

I live in the Seattle area, and I'm writing something set here... Granted, it's kind of post-apocalyptic. But several of the characters actually love the area (partially because it is hard for my love for the area not to come through). It's an amazing place, and so so green (and if you're like me and have very light sensitive eyes, the often overcast weather is amazing). I tend to set things in parts of the country that I know if I'm putting them in our world, which pretty much limits me to the PNW/NorCal, SoCal (which I kind of despise) and the South (which I really despise). Of those, it seems unsurprising to me that I tend to write things set in the PNW/NorCal. Adrien Etienne

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Flenzaikie — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 19:05:41 -0700

Hmm. Love triangles are bearable, if the MC is actually compelling. Oftentimes I'll find a story that has an ordinary girl (who is the definition of bland) that has two perfect, fantasy guys that come to her every beck and call. And there's absolutely no reason for it. Not to mention, you can practically tell who's going to 'win' in the end. That and vampire love stories (because it's like falling in love with your potato salad)

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

AdrienEtienne — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 19:09:09 -0700

The seeming need to pair everyone off (unless they are really minor or "bad") at the end, especially in a heterosexual set of pairings. Teenagers date, break up, don't date, become interested in such things at different ages, just plain don't become interested in them, or have other things going on that are more important. I don't mind romantic entanglements in stories (actually I like them, if done well, they're interesting), but I remember always being depressed by the pairing off... It didn't give me the chance to believe that "maybe one of these characters could be like me and be queer in some way." That is something that I figured out pretty young, and it was especially troublesome to me as a teenager (though I was mostly reading in the "adult" section by that point). In my novel, I plan to try to represent a pretty wide range of sexualities in the romantic subplots, but I also have characters who are for whatever reason not going to be romantically entangled who are still important characters. Adrien Etienne

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

jefflion — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 19:16:55 -0700

It is true that authors often feel the need to "find a soul mate" to all their important characters... Even in YA, where characters are in their teen years. Assumed heterosexuality is another matter. As if there are "regular" books in which gay characters are sidekicks with a sense for fashion and "queer" books in which these characters are allowed to have a full range of experiences. Now, I must admit I don't have any queer pairings in my novel (there are gay characters but they are minor). So maybe I shouldn't talk about it.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

AdrienEtienne — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 19:41:47 -0700

I may very well just be better at finding novels geared towards adults that have queer characters. It's entirely believable... And I understand that in the past few years YA has gotten a lot better on the queer character front... But it wasn't something that I was able to find when I was at an age where YA was mainly what I wanted to be reading, and I was looking. I'm not entirely sure that I'm following what you mean with: "Assumed heterosexuality is another matter. As if there are "regular" books in which gay characters are sidekicks with a sense for fashion and "queer" books in which these characters are allowed to have a full range of experiences." What I was trying to get at is that a range of sexualities are out there, and I didn't really want stories about being queer, I wanted interesting stories that happened to have characters that were queer, because I am. Adrien Etienne

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

jefflion — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 19:54:17 -0700

I meant that there are many books without any queer characters. Then there are books with a token queer character; this character is rarely given a story arc, let alone a romantic one. (This type of token characters are best gay friends, for example). And then, there are books that have more queer characters, characters who have actual personalities and development and a romantic subplot. However, these books are often seen as "queer" books (as the opposite of the "regular" ones). I don't like this classification because it makes it seem like books with queer characters (with romantic subplots, etc.) aren't "regular" books.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

andreamantis — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 20:19:27 -0700

I agree with the others - your love triangle sounds original. I think, like jefflion was saying, we're all tired of the love triangles between one girl and two guys where that is the main plot of the story. Every story needs some type of romance (at least, I think so), and a love triangle as a subplot is fine. And yours sounds so different that it would be quite interesting to read, and not cliched at all!

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

BloodLilies — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 20:50:46 -0700

Adding to the heroine thing. When the story is in first person and they use terms like "ivory skinned", "slender", "Chocolate brown eyes" to describe themselevs.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

myyearinlists — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 21:07:20 -0700

This, this, this! I'm actually writing a YA novel this year in which only two of the primary characters are teenagers. The rest are adults, and they're far from useless (we do see the MC's fellow teenage friends at the beginning, but she's yanked out of that world pretty quickly). I wanted pretty specifically to write a story in which a sixteen-year-old kid is up against adults who are great at their jobs and very, very smart, and doesn't win (at least in the way she'd prefer). There's also not a real romantic subplot, which might be risky. My MC does have a boyfriend at the beginning, but he doesn't come save her life, nor is she seduced by anyone else throughout the story. She does develop an inappropriate sort of crush on one of the twentysomethings she's locked up with, but it's established pretty early that nothing will ever come of it; it's just a Ship Tease/UST thing.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

myyearinlists — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 21:20:13 -0700

Most of the FMC cliches that bug me have already been listed. I agree with the special snowflake/shy/clumsy/plain YA girls who seem to be absolutely everywhere nowadays. I was starting to worry that I was making a mistake by having my MC this year be an athletic, biracial girl who has charisma and balls but few book smarts - the opposite of the pale-skinned classic literature fan that's become so prevalent in years past. But this thread kind of makes me feel better; if you guys are tired of it as well, I guess that's a step in the right direction. Another big cliche that bugs the life out of me is the Snotty Rich Girl As Villain. Look, there are people with money whose parents actually teach them to be considerate, smart, caring people. They may be rare, but they exist (and they're usually either old money who is cheerfully oblivious to how the other half lives but likes them all just the same, or people whose families have fallen on hard times before but risen above, so they know all too well what the 99% goes through). Great mean-girl characters don't all have to be filthy rich. This is a TV example, but look at Kim Kelly from Freaks and Geeks - her home life was hell and she was a jerk to everyone as a method of overcompensation. Of course, she turned out to be really sympathetic and didn't just exist to antagonize Lindsay, but still - that's a model I'd like to see followed more often.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

KatBrown — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 21:22:17 -0700

Has anybody else noticed that EVERY SINGLE FEMALE MC is super pale? I don't think I've ever read a character that's described themselves as tan. It's always "porcelain skin" and "deathly pale".

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Vyctori — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 21:22:53 -0700

As I've stated before I don't believe in bad cliches, just bad execution :p

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Vyctori — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 21:23:54 -0700

My FMC is has deep brown skin, So I'm avoiding this.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

uncreativecarly — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 21:24:01 -0700

*cough cough* Bella Swan

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

uncreativecarly — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 21:26:08 -0700

It's back to the "speshul" thing. The heroine wouldn't dare to be something as mainstream as tan. She has to be quirky and unique and nerdy, all the way down to her skin tone.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Eldaisy — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 22:06:25 -0700

It's interesting because I've noticed in YA films most characters, particularly female, are usually at least lightly tanned.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

AdrienEtienne — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 23:16:31 -0700

Oh, yeah. I don't like that they aren't seen as regular books either. I just didn't parse what you said right the first time. My best guess is that the only cure for that is getting more books that are stories with major queer characters that are focused on the story, but don't try to hide from the fact that the characters are queer, out there. I guess that that's where I can try to come in. I have trouble writing perspective characters that aren't queer... It's something that I've always been, so I have a harder time writing in the head of a character who isn't queer. Sometimes I work to challenge myself, but a lot of the time I decide, OK, I should just go with my strengths, and maybe I can change expectations... Adrien Etienne

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

IsLikeaSong — Sat, 22 Oct 2011 00:00:47 -0700

Seconded. It's entirely possible to take those familiar tropes and subvert them or play with them some. The antagonist of my novel this year is going to be a head cheerleader who develops mind control, and I'm definitely having fun trying to figure out how I'm going to make what could be a stereotypical Snotty Mean Girl into a budding supervillian.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Mstar — Sat, 22 Oct 2011 00:39:20 -0700

I gotta say that my fave tropes are love triangles and love/hate relationships. There's no love triangle in this first book of what might be a trilogy that I'm writing. There is a love/hate relationship instead, though I suppose it's a somewhat non-traditional L/H R. My two main characters have sex at the beginning of the book and sleep together several more times over the course of the story. There's sexual attraction between them, and though my FMC is totally fine with it just being sex, my MMC would *like* it to *just* be sex, but he's finding himself actually falling in love with her and he doesn't handle it very well. He's used to sleeping around and sex just being sex, so developing feelings for my FMC is a bit of a shock to him and he reacts by being a total jerk to her. So she ends up kind of hating him, but the sex is hot, so she doesn't mind sleeping with him from time to time, which just makes the attachment on his end worse. It's a vicious cycle. There'll be a love triangleish in the sequel, though, between my FMC, MMC, and a mutual friend that really just wants to use my FMC to advance the goals of the secret organization he's a part of and tries to use romance as a means of manipulating my FMC. That brings be to my most hated trope- I can't stand these weakling, useless "heroines" that I keep seeing sprout up. Like they're human and their love interests are badass supernatural creatures. In my story, my FMC can turn into a lion and sees quite a bit of action during the first book. As I mentioned earlier, sex isn't this huge thing to her and she doesn't let guys bully her romantically, like that other character I mentioned that becomes a part of a love triangle with her. He tries to manipulate her, but it doesn't work. I've also tried to negate these totally whitewashed, pale, weakling FMCs, by having my FMC have some ethnic interest. Though her father's side of the family is German, on her mom's side, there was this Romeo and Juliet type romance between her great-grandma and an African-American boy during the Civil Rights movement. Consequently, my FMC's mom's side of the family is biracial and my FMC is described as having a "mane" of curly blonde hair that I envision to be like River Song's and I imagine her to have a similar tan skin coloring (http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ltgi7q1mbO1qzxh2t.jpg for reference).

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Mstar — Sat, 22 Oct 2011 00:52:21 -0700

No kidding. Though my main characters are primarily paired with each other, they also get with so many other people over the course of the story and planned trilogy. My MMC is a manwhore, who sleeps with a lot of people- mostly women, but a few men as well. My FMC briefly sees a passing minor character, a majorish minor character, and has a relationship with one of the other MMCs. Those are all male, but she becomes friends with one of the main antagonists, who's a lesbian that's attracted to my FMC. My FMC may have a brief lesbian encounter with the antagonist, but I'm not entirely sure. While my MMC definitely has a heteroflexible vibe to him, my FMC is coming to me as being pretty straight. We'll see how it works out in the writing. And all during this, my my FMC and MMC have this sort of non-exclusive relationship that becomes more solid over the duration of the trilogy as they gradually come to love each other for more than just the great sex they have together. Then again, my novel is more "New Adult" as my character range from age 19 to 25, and are a bit more mature than your typical YA teens.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Mstar — Sat, 22 Oct 2011 01:00:42 -0700

Though I do have to admit that I have a "gay best friend" character, based upon one of my real life friends. He's my MMC's friend and assistant, and though he is pretty flamboyant, I'm going to do my best not to write him as a stereotype and try to write in a romantic arc for him. My best friend is bi and I'm very involved with my college's GSA so having visible, multi-dimensional queer characters is really important to me. Though I wouldn't call my story queer-lit, I'd definitely call it "queer-friendly". Kind of like how Queer as Folk is a queer tv show, while Buffy the Vampire Slayer is queer-friendly. I'm hoping to be able to turn my "gay bff" character into a Willow-type character, as in gay, but an important part of the "team" whose gayness is not their defining feature.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Mstar — Sat, 22 Oct 2011 01:02:23 -0700

Bahaha, I totally have the influential, wacky grandma in my story, though she's referenced posthumously as she died before the events of the book.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Mstar — Sat, 22 Oct 2011 01:16:30 -0700

My supernatural MMC is an a-hole, but that's because he's wealthy and gets lots and lots of sex and is consequently an arrogant son of a b****. He usually suppresses his angst and when it comes out, it actually makes him a decent person as it makes him empathize with other people. And on the flipside, my FMC is a more kicka** supernatural creature who kind of hates my MMC throughout most of the story unless it's to sleep with him, because though she can't stand him as a person, he's great in bed (when she met him, she thought he was just going to be a one night stand after a night out on the town, but due to circumstances, they accidentally end up working together). That's something that annoys me, the perception that girls don't like sex as just sex (only *guys* are like that), and that girls that are like that are terrible sluts. It's a perception that I'm definitely trying to shatter in my story. But yeah, thinking about it, my MCs' relationship is pretty much an anti-romance to the point of being comical at times. They try so hard not to like each other and then they somehow end up being friends.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Mstar — Sat, 22 Oct 2011 01:25:01 -0700

There will be a love triangle in my story's sequel, but it won't be the driving force of the plot. Also, none of the characters involved really want a relationship. My FMC sort of has this anti-romance with MMC where they sleep together a lot, but she kind of can't stand him. He, on the other hand, is gradually falling in love with her but refuses to admit it and both characters sleep around quite a bit, the MMC especially. Meanwhile, a mutual friend of their's needs my FMC's special abilities for a secret organization that he's a part of, but she's being less than cooperative, so he starts romancing her in an attempt to use her emotions to manipulate her into helping him. My MMC realizes this and is torn between his dedication to his manwhore relationship-free lifestyle and how much he actually cares for the FMC. And again, this isn't the entire plot of the sequel. It's a subplot to overall larger plot that deals with much more important things than petty relationships.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Mstar — Sat, 22 Oct 2011 01:27:10 -0700

My novel is more "New Adult" than YA, as the main characters are all in the 19-25 age bracket. My MC is a sophomore in college studying abroad, which provides a convenient way of getting the parents out of the way.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Mstar — Sat, 22 Oct 2011 01:30:10 -0700

I'm so sick of that too. That's probably why my novel has an "anti-romance", in which the two characters involved have great sex, but they can't stand each other out of bed.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Lempicka — Sat, 22 Oct 2011 05:37:27 -0700

I had a love triangle last year, but it was between three girls, and they were all friends with one another. It also didn't get resolved by the end of the story, and all three of them were treating the situation pretty lightly. [quote]The seeming need to pair everyone off (unless they are really minor or "bad") at the end, especially in a heterosexual set of pairings.[/quote] This. God yes. It's one of the things that made me hate Terry Pratchett's Tiffany Aching stories. I loved them to bits until the last book, in which for no apparent reason he created the perfect guy out of thin air to pair her off with, despite the books largely being about how strong and independent she is, and despite her having a mentor who is a single, strong independent woman. I couldn't even pretend that they broke up at some point, because he went and put the time travel 'they live happily ever after TOGETHER' thing in at the end. Likewise, the absence of this cliche in the Enola Holmes books is another reason I love them so much. The author was even nice enough to state that she likely would never marry (because she's like her brother Sherlock), and also dropped in enough hints about her friend Lady Cecily to imply that she might end up being with her someday (Enola called her a 'soulmate'), without outright stating it for those people who would prefer she didn't. I really want to write stories that involve queer characters without the stories being ABOUT them being queer. I want to read stories about adventure and mystery, with protagonists that just happen to also be queer, the way so many stories have characters that just happen to be straight/heteronormal, without them being about that. Yet when I tell people this, they just stare at me blankly like they have no idea what I'm talking about. They can't seem to grasp the idea. What's up with that? One cliche in YA I dislike is evil/abusive uncles and aunts. Both my sisters have kids, but I don't and cant; I've always been as kind as possible to them, and I've babysat them plenty of times. I can relate to aunts and uncles more than parents, so I don’t like it when such characters are typically shown as being bad. The MC in my nano novel for this year gets adopted by his uncle, who is a decent and caring person. I'd like to see that more in YA novels. The same goes for siblings as well.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

jefflion — Sat, 22 Oct 2011 06:29:51 -0700

That's because they don't go out often: they stay at home reading Jane Austen! But now that I think of it, I pictured my MC as being pale; I'm very pale and I guess it's easiest for me to write about it in the First person POV. However, it's a step in the wrong direction, not just because of the cliche, but because I don't want to slip into self-insert. While my MC isn't like me, she does share some of my interests, so I don't want to make her saimilar to myself in other aspects. Thanks for reminding me of this! Paleness erased for this character!

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

bikegirl115 — Sat, 22 Oct 2011 07:29:59 -0700

I actually played with this cliche last year. In the first section of the book, it's rainy and mysterious and dreary all the time- but it turns out there's a supernatural explanation behind the rain. In the other parts of the book, the weather is normal. However, some of the characters complain and miss the all-the-time rain. (I prefer rain, so this was easy for me). I researched weather patterns for the Pacific Northwest and everything... I didn't actually visit there until last year after Nano (interesting coincidence), and it was almost as I had imagined, but better. You live in a beautiful part of the country.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

MTeson — Sat, 22 Oct 2011 07:34:25 -0700

I'm bored with success. What I mean to say is, every single YA novel I read has a happy ending. But I find the most powerful stories, especially with YA, are stories where the characters are allowed to fail at things and then learn from their failures. If, say, you want to explore the issue of loyalty and friendship, I think it's far more interesting to have your MC have a moment where they fail to demonstrate said loyalty or courage or whatever, and then that failure has consequences that are undoable. I feel like so much of YA is a tangential form of wish-fulfillment, where the characters all end up succeeding/saving the world/getting the romance - it's like authors are trying to make up for their traumatic youth experiences by writing the experiences they wish they had had complete with the lessons they learned the hard way coming naturally to the characters. I want to read a book where a character ends up broke, alone, and regretful. And THEN they can pick themselves up and start again. Like life. The ultimate story of my YA life wasn't the love triangle. The guy didn't get the girl. The guy made an ass of himself, failed to get the girl, and never realized until it was too late how little it mattered. And that actualization is totally missing from so much of YA lit in lieu of setting up these characters with happy endings for life, when in reality they'll all forget about each other two years into college.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

MTeson — Sat, 22 Oct 2011 07:43:21 -0700

Too add to my already-too long analysis, I think what appeals to me about YA is something that Cory Doctorow talked about when writing "Little Brother" - the idea that with YA, your characters are doing all these things that adults do, but they're doing it for the first time. Adults lie to friends, come up short in clutch situations, stand courageously for a lost cause, negotiate values with pragmatism, they do it every day all the time. Kids are still figuring out who they are, and there's still the potential in every YA character of being a total failure. What if this kid who is the hero of the story who is being set up to be amazing turned out to be a total choker in the clutch? What if he was selfish or greedy? What if he failed to do the big thing he was being set up to do? How would he learn about himself from that? How would he recover? What skills would he gain? No one EVER explores those questions! It seems all too familiar in YA that heroes are set up to succeed, trained to succeed, and then they succeed. To me the most interesting idea in YA is the idea of a hero who is set up to succeed, trained to succeed, and then in the moment they realize something about themselves, about their inability to see X, Y, or Z, that causes them to fail. The question that many kids often ask themselves - "What if I'm not as good a person as I think I am/want to be?" YA books by and large do not address this unless they are setting characters up to be cardboard villains.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

daqu — Sat, 22 Oct 2011 09:46:41 -0700

I know everyone here will probably disagree with me, but I'm such a sucker for a (well written!!) good girl/bad boy romance. If the relationship is full of stupid cliches it's no fun, but if the author can pull it off I absolutely love the dynamic. My #1 pet peeve cliche is the FMC who is shy/quiet/a loner/antisocial/whatever, but has the token best friend who is totally loyal and always there for her. Most of the time they have known each other since kindergarten. This bothers me because I AM the shy/quiet/loner/antisocial girl, and all through elementary school and junior high and high school and my first year of college I never got a best friend like that. (I finally did this year, but I'm now 20 and no longer a teen.) It's like the authors want to have a character who fits that profile, but are afraid that if she has NO friends readers will think that she's TOO weird or a sociopath or something.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

chel.c.cam — Sat, 22 Oct 2011 12:46:09 -0700

I'm actually from Maine, so this is a big pet peeve of mine. There is a YA Paranormal Romance (which will remain nameless) that is set in Maine, but the author has never been there. I threw the book across the room so many times when I was reading it because the author had obviously not even bothered to do any research. She talked about the character fishing for crawdads when she was a child. A five second Google search turned up that crawdads, which are also called crayfish, don't live in Maine. I set all my books in Maine because I've lived here my whole life, so I think I have a right to, but I"m trying my best to show the Maine that people who haven't been here might not know. Other cliches I hate: Bad boys who always wear leather jackets and drive motorcycles Teenagers who are supposedly smart, but never do any homework People who never seem to work, but always have money. Also, the love interest almost always has tons of money. What about a sexy guy who lived in a trailer? Describing every single thing the character does in a day. I don't care that your heroine showered. Get on with the story.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

chel.c.cam — Sat, 22 Oct 2011 12:50:36 -0700

Yes for the bitchy cheerleaders. As a former cheerleader, I can tell you that we're not any bitchier than anyone else. Actually, the mean girls at my high school were all on the basketball team. The cheerleaders were kind of outcasts and smart girls. And there is no such thing as a "cheerleader captain." Also, there is always a coach. There are zero squads in the United States that are run by teenage mean girls with no adult supervision. It just doesn't happen. Any sport or club has to have an adult present at practices.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

mariah125 — Sat, 22 Oct 2011 12:53:22 -0700

Oh, I know! (about the male friend) It's getting so prevalent that you can just make the assumption without any clues nowadays. I aim to change that - and NOT by making him gay. That's such an easy out... Aren't they adorable? :D I'm kind of worried about what critics would say about my MC. She's gullible, weak, obsessive, inept... the list goes on. Her only strength is her academic genius. She's not likable OR relatable to the average person. But then I realized her other strength - her ability to love (not just romantically) even despite her mental "disorder", or perhaps because of it. I disagree with those who want perfect main characters - you just have to write the flaws well.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

chel.c.cam — Sat, 22 Oct 2011 13:12:38 -0700

I second writing about paleness because I'm pale. I have blonde hair and blue eyes, and I try to write about girls who don't look like me, but I almost always write short, pale curly-haired girls because that's what I know. I'd love to write a mixed race character, just to see if I could do it.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Leanne — Sat, 22 Oct 2011 13:37:57 -0700

I thoroughly enjoyed this analysis. I especially liked the questions you asked, the ones that are never answered in YA fiction. I think they are issues that need to be explored--and, to me, it's exploration that is lacking in teen novels.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Agent Pendergast — Sat, 22 Oct 2011 16:35:03 -0700

The falling in love with your best friend. My MC's best friend is going to chop of the pinkie finger off her little brother and send it to her in a box. The falling in love with a loner/ mysterious boy.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

owlsarefun — Sat, 22 Oct 2011 17:13:05 -0700

Gorgeous male love interests. Okay, sounds weird. Obviously I don't hate good-looking guys. Quite the opposite. But how realistic is it to have your seventeen-year-old guy look like a chiselled Calvin Klein model? Please, please, please, can we have some regular guys sweeping our MCs off their feet? Because I think all the perfecty-perfect Edward Cullens in YA books are screwing teenage girls up, making them expect too much from real teenage guys.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

savvythewritergirl — Sat, 22 Oct 2011 17:19:16 -0700

I COMPLETELY agree with what you said about the quiet/shy/loner girl getting that ideal best friend that we all want. In reality, friends (even best friends) can stab you in the back, spread rumors about you, and make you feel worthless, ESPECIALLY if the FMC is very shy and quiet. I was always the "obnoxiously nice" girl in my group of friends, and while I did have my spazzy moments now and then, I was unnervingly shy. In return, I gained some bad friendships that walked all over me. Seriously, YA, these things happen. I'd like to see an FMC who either has a "best friend" that does something awful to her, or commits the unforgivable act herself. Maybe she does something horrible to HER best friend who is quiet and shy. See? Now there's an idea! That said, the quirky, loyal, golden retriever-esque bestie can make for an entertaining read, IF written into the story correctly. I think almost any cliche can be overcome by good writing/a great plot.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

superstarlala — Sat, 22 Oct 2011 19:00:42 -0700

I love first person POV usually better than third actually

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Dennis Dunjinman — Sat, 22 Oct 2011 19:57:27 -0700

So it's all love, sex, and shallowness? Well, good. I've personally decided against love in favor of friendship, since I always believed that understanding and closeness was always more special than just finding a mate. The one I don't like is no cliché. But it's the idea that since teens are older, the immediately have to have books that are made of "tough stuff" and "not for the faint of heart". To me, this is a tragedy. I can take quite a lot without any tears, but I don't enjoy reading books where everyone is unhappy and whiny, dystopias and human horrorifics the norm. I don't mind "darkness", but it's the edgy part I can't handle. I like a good ghost story, and a number of terrors can make it interesting. But please, make it a more wholesome terror, where no one whines or rages like babies. I recently got into a heated arguement about this with some. They told me "It's not 'dark' or 'horrible', it's reality.". Well, it's certainly not MY reality. Because none of this tough stuff ever happened to me, and I rarely end up attacked or in a dystopian world, or whining and cursing like a stream. I've read a fair bit of stories where real bad stuff happened, and even with a few hard parts it was by no means terrible enough to justify a censor team. A large number of adult novels aren't this bad. Sometimes it seems I have to go there in refuge from the stuff they expect teenagers to read, and I rarely venture there.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Beacon80 — Mon, 24 Oct 2011 10:27:56 -0700

My story is set in Maine. I've never lived there, and while I have been there, it was over a decade ago. I'm doing everything I can to compensate for this. I've looked at Google Maps of the area. I've looked up statistics on race and religion. Most importantly, though, once I've gotten this all written up and revised, I'm going to find somebody from Maine (ideally Franklin County) to read through it and point out anything I've gotten wrong.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Beacon80 — Mon, 24 Oct 2011 10:33:18 -0700

Heh. The guy my main character starts developing feelings for is gorgeous. He's an angel, after all. They're supposed to be beautiful. Too bad he's asexual. :-P

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

carrieicl — Mon, 24 Oct 2011 11:51:20 -0700

Clichés I've Always Hated: Mary Sues (they ain't just for fanfic anymore!). This includes Sues who think they're ugly but are actually gorgeous, Sues who think they're unpopular but are worshiped, etc. I have no patience for Self-Insertion Heroines. I don't think good books are Wish-Fulfillment... especially when it's clearly the author's fantasies that are being fulfilled. It's awkward and embarrassing. Insta-friendships. Even if two characters get along, no one over the age of eight is a bosom-buddy overnight. All relationships need building, not just romantic ones. Talking animals (unless the story is high fantasy). Modern-day lightly-paranormal talking dogs/cats/wolves... no. MCs who are rude to their parents. Having problems is one thing; being a total dick and presenting is as a sign of character strength is something else entirely. Unsympathetic villains. Don't waste my time. Clichés I'm Sick Of: Paranormal romance, which is a real shame. The vampire/werewolf/ghost/etc. thing used to be funand occasionally well-executed. Now the market is completely flooded with the same, badly-written story repeated ad nauseum for the sole purpose of publishers trying to cash in on a currently popular trope. Thanks, Twilight. Love triangles. Used to love 'em. Now, see above. Including the sarcastic thanks to Twilight. "Issues" books. I think depression, homosexuality, racism, bullying, etc. are really important themes to explore in children's/YA lit. But for the love of God, check to see if someone else has done your story (and better) first. Also, many authors can't skirt the line between complete ignorance of the topic and having the topic be too personal and raw. Both lead to a bad at best, offensive at worst book. Angsty boys. Done. Clichés I Still Love: Where the best friend gets the girl/boy. Maybe it's because every single love triangle I've backed EVER has failed, but just once I'd like to see the guy who's on equal footing with the girl be the one who wins out. Dumblegandwans. You know, the crazy old guy with the incomprehensible sense of humor who aids the protagonist on his/her journey. There's one in almost every fantasy story, and I love 'em all.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

jefflion — Mon, 24 Oct 2011 12:07:08 -0700

And what about the angsty girls? For some reason, they annoy me more than the angsty boys.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

carrieicl — Mon, 24 Oct 2011 13:37:46 -0700

At this point I've just given up on ever having non-angsty girls. Why set yourself up for disappointment, right?

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Lempicka — Mon, 24 Oct 2011 14:03:39 -0700

After people complained about my all-female cast last year, I have a grand total of one major female character this year. She's only thirteen and she doesn't angst, despite her mother being missing pressumed dead. Heck, her introduction in my story will consist of her throwing a bucket of cold water over my MC to wake him up, because he makes her miss Gilbert and Sullivan. And I'm actually quite proud of how non-angsty my MC is despite the utterly cliche death-by-fire of his parents. Has anyone mentioned that cliche yet? I think it's been said, but dead parents in YA fiction is a pretty common one, and death by fire even more so. I'm guilty of keeping it going this year. I guess I don't have a problem with that one, though it really is unoriginal in the extreme. I have a magic ring involved as well, though I swiped it from legend/mythology.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Mr_White — Mon, 24 Oct 2011 19:07:10 -0700

Totally get where you're coming from here. I think the good girl/bad guy (or good guy/bad guy or good girl/bad girl) romance has a reputation because not many people get it right, but in the hands of a decent writer it can be excellent. The loner thing bothers me too--if they've got a best friend then what's the point? I just started watching the anime Boku wa Tomodachi ga Sukunai (I Don't Have Many Friends) and one of the things I like about it is that all of the characters are genuinely lonely/alone.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Mr_White — Mon, 24 Oct 2011 19:27:55 -0700

Abuse Is Okay When It's Female On Male and The Unfair Sex. Hate these ones, especially because they're still so prevalent. I love strong female characters to pieces but these tropes? No. Wrong. Bad. Damaging to feminism, damaging to equality. The other one I really dislike is the motiveless bad guy--you know, where there's no real reason for the antagonists to be doing what they're doing except that they're Evil. In fact, Good and Evil generally I don't have much time for, I'm much more interested in Right and Wrong. I also like it when the 'bad guy' has a totally legitimate and sympathetic motive and it's mostly their methods that put them on the opposite side to the protagonist(s)--or maybe just conflicting goals. Totally evil races annoy me too, it's like an excuse to give the Good Guys something to kill without raising any moral issues. Oh, and when only the straight white male heroes are allowed to actually do anything. Rubbish.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Kristen_Lorene — Mon, 24 Oct 2011 20:46:18 -0700

I actually just finished reading a book with a non-angsty female protagonist. AND, this book was YA Paranormal/Fantasy/Dystopian. GASP. It was so refreshing, and besides that bit of goodness the rest of the book was also amazing. So it is possible.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

carrieicl — Mon, 24 Oct 2011 22:02:45 -0700

Ooh! What?

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Kristen_Lorene — Mon, 24 Oct 2011 22:57:02 -0700

It's called Shatter Me by Tahereh Mafi. Coming out November 15th. :) The only thing that made it less than perfect for me is the love interest is a little too perfect. I still liked him, but he needed a couple flaws.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Arianna Erlaine — Mon, 24 Oct 2011 23:56:00 -0700

I admit, I don't read a ton of YA and never have, despite being the right age. Tamora Pierce, Diane Duane, and a few others still have my readership in that section, but... when I was in high school, I was pretty much asexual, and my school was one of the types (is this rare or something? according to YA fiction, it must be) that did /not/ have clic warfare. If you wanted nothing to do with a particular person, you could literally go years without so much as passing them in the hallway. My graduating class had over 300 people in it, and the freshman class was more like 900. There was almost no such thing as the whole school knowing one person's /name/, much less all falling over his (or her) feet for a date. My life had nothing in common with the lives of most YA characters, so trying to read those books was like... trying to read fantasy, but the kind of fantasy where everything sucks real bad and the author assumes you already know everything about living in their world. I haven't read through everything, but skimming the posts in this thread, it looks like a lot of people are sick of various kinds of romance. I'm writing a YA novel for NaNo'11, and romance is not only not the theme, it's barely touched on. There's a guy trying to rescue a girl, but it's because she's his /friend/, not because one of them has some crush or sexual interest in the other. He also /fails/ to rescue her, she doesn't find out how hard he was trying, and they /don't/ end up together. Or end up with anyone else, either, because the world they live in is very strict about the seriousness of courtship (and they are both considered far too young to court or be courted). It's something that I think I'd be comfortable reading myself, because all the fantasy rules are explained and it just makes sense to me that they're friends with no romantic interests... is that unusual? I guess my question really is, if you guys are sick of seeing too much dumb romance, is it any better to have no romance at all?

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Kristen_Lorene — Tue, 25 Oct 2011 00:18:46 -0700

I have two minds about this subject. I'm /normally/ all for a good romance, so long as it makes sense within the context of the story (I don't wanna read romance for romance sake). I'm also kind of tired of the stories that are /all/ about the romance (thank you Twilight). Lately I've been getting irritated at many YA books though, because I think they *gasp* would have been better without the romance thrown in. Because that's what it feels like. Like it was "thrown in." Just because it's YA and that's what we do. Sigh. That's partly why I still read Middle Grade fiction too. Because there are really good stories being told, and the target age is a bit too young for the full blown romance part. ANYways, all that to say, if you think it works for your story, leave the romance out! I for one would be relieved to read a good YA novel that is self aware enough to realize when the romance isn't needed.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

winter_jasmine — Tue, 25 Oct 2011 02:40:07 -0700

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, (not too long at all! :)). You raise a really interesting point, but I wonder, how do we go about doing this authentically without ending the story on a negative note? At some point do you not need the character to eventually succeed in the way they were trained, otherwise how do you avoid the feeling that the whole story was for nothing? Jaz

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

jefflion — Tue, 25 Oct 2011 04:44:42 -0700

I don't mind romance, as long as it's just a sub plot and not the whole point of the novel, AND if it fits the story. I'm ok with it if it's there because of character development, coming of age (common theme in YA novels), or to move the plot. If it's there just because the author think there must be romance in YA, or, even worse, as some sort of author wish fulfillment (that never ends good), then no. On the other hand, I don't like when romance/dating/sexuality is not presented realistically. It's fine to have asexual characters, and it's fine to have characters who are honestly not interested in dating at the present point. So make them act accordingly. And if you have characters who are dating and who are interested in romance, then make them realistic and not according to what moral guardians might think. Some kids don't want to have sex and want to wait, which is ok if it suits their characters. Others don't act that way. Some plan their special night with a loved one. Others have random, meaningless sex at parties. Some use condom. Others don't. Some get in trouble for it. Others don't. Whatever it is, be brave enough to describe it the way it suits your characters, your story and the reality... Not what guardians believe it's suitable. (Ok, I'm getting off topic with this one. I'm just saying is that your story and your characters are the most important, an not what others expect: be it parents, guardians or the teen readers. If your characters are not into romance, don't make a romance sub plot just for the sake of it. If your characters are asexual, make them that way. If your characters are sexually irresponsible teens, make them that way. But in any case, see what works for your story, and no, not all YA stories need to have a romantic sub plot).

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

bloodxredxroses — Tue, 25 Oct 2011 04:54:51 -0700

I don't mind first person as long as fourth-wall-breakage doesn't occur too often. I mean, who talks to their own mind? And that's how I view first person- you're reading someone else's thoughts.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

SailorEm — Tue, 25 Oct 2011 06:03:38 -0700

The lack of parents or adult figures in YA these days is a little sad and somewhat embarrassing. I know the book is primarily about the protagonist who relates best with their friends/peers and struggles through whatever their problem is like a mature kid, but the fact that the parental figure is pretty much becoming nonexistent is really frustrating. I make sure in my books the parents are always as real as possible, as in THERE for starters.... That always gets my goat, and I'm glad to see the others above me agree! :D *feels better for sharing*

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

jefflion — Tue, 25 Oct 2011 06:27:56 -0700

I think it's important to have a balance. In a way, you need your teen characters to face situations on their own, because it's their story. But you also need to find a realistic way to include or exclude parents. That's why dead or irresponsible parents are so prevalent, but I'm not sure if authors really understand how this works. Living without parents or with just one parent (the other one being dead), or living with irresponsible parents who don't take a good care of you AFFECTS YOU. Not everybody will be affected the same way, but I often see teen characters portrayed like regular, ordinary teens with ordinary teen problems, but coming from broken families or families with irresponsible parents. Of course it's possible to be it like that, and in a way, I do think it's more realistic for them to focus on ordinary teen problems than to whine about their broken family. However, some things ARE different and I can't help thinking that the whole dead/irresponsible parent is just a way for authors to remove parents from the story. They don't really think how this might affect the teen in question.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Arianna Erlaine — Tue, 25 Oct 2011 08:05:25 -0700

TVTropes explains it better, in more detail, and with more examples than I ever will: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ParentalAbandonment

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

poi_son_joy — Tue, 25 Oct 2011 11:20:25 -0700

I think you have a really good point with all this! One of the ideas I'm toying with actually involves my two main characters both having parents who aren't involved (or involved WELL) with their lives, but I'm trying to play it as straight as possible. One of them has one parent who's (mostly) verbally abusive and one who's either absent or emotionally absent (I haven't decided yet), and it definitely affects his character even if he doesn't like to talk about it. The other has INTENSELY accepting parents -- to the point that the adage "so open minded their brains spill out" would apply, and they're by turns doting and sorta-smothering and entirely accepting of him going off at all sorts of hours (especially if he's meeting up with someone they like/think is trustworthy). He actually complains about them a lot more than the kid who's from the broken household ever complains about his family, funnily enough. You're right, it's entirely possible to be an entirely normal, ordinary teenager with entirely normal, ordinary teenage problems even if you're in that kind of situation, but honestly, I think that sort of thing WOULD affect everyone. Just in different ways. Too many authors don't seem to put much (if any) thought into that, unless the way the circumstances are affecting the child is the main focus of the story.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

rainstorm. — Tue, 25 Oct 2011 14:58:33 -0700

...I thought I knew what book you were talking about, but then I realized I was mixing up two different books: one that takes place in Maine and is a YA paranormal romance but doesn't involve catching crawdads, and a non-paranormal non-romance YA that didn't take place anywhere near Maine, but involved the character fishing for crawdads as a child. XD

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

rainstorm. — Tue, 25 Oct 2011 15:12:05 -0700

"Every story needs some type of romance (at least, I think so)" Ooh, see this, this. A lot of people think that, and I kinda agree, but not romance for the random sake of romance. Like, if someone have no romance whatsoever, but they're like, "Oh, I need romance! Quick, let's add a random subplot." I mean, if it gets forced, it can really mess up the story. There really aren't many books I've read that don't at least have a romantic subplot-- but some of my favorite books don't have any romance, and it doesn't detract from the story at all. As long as something major happens, like deaths, etc. I don't feel romance is really "necessary" in a literal sense. Though, like you said, it's your opinion, and this is just my opinion, so.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

rainstorm. — Tue, 25 Oct 2011 15:14:13 -0700

Heheh, I like this one too. xD

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

rainstorm. — Tue, 25 Oct 2011 15:20:29 -0700

Yeah. I loved the Hunger Games, but I didn't like Katniss's indecision over whether to pick Peeta or Gale. I almost felt like she shouldn't end up with either of them. ...I was going to say more but I remembered maybe not everyone's read Mockingjay so you know I'm not going to keep going on and possibly say spoilers. ^_^

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

rainstorm. — Tue, 25 Oct 2011 15:42:10 -0700

And while we're at Mary-Sues, I might as well mention Anti-Sues. Just as bad or worse. Where the character thinks she's boring and plain, AND SHE IS, but EVERYONE LOVES HER and she's super popular. It's like the author tried SOOO HARD to not make a Mary-Sue that they ended up... well, making one.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

rainstorm. — Tue, 25 Oct 2011 15:50:38 -0700

^ This... this times a thousand. Off the top of my head, I can only think of one good YA novel I've read that didn't involve romance (it's not the only one; just the only one I can think up right now). And a lot of it seems thrown in.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Mattimis — Tue, 25 Oct 2011 16:16:41 -0700

Spot on with this one. I read a book earlier (it was called "Thirsty," by M. T. Anderson) where the main character failed. He failed to stop himself from being a vampire. Now, granted, that got me pretty pissed when I read to the ending and found that he hadn't succeeded, but in hindsight I think it made it better--I mean, look at me now. I've remembered this novel that I read like two years ago over so many others.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

uncreativecarly — Tue, 25 Oct 2011 22:11:40 -0700

You're right, especially about the "for the first time" part. That's what makes well-written YA fiction unique and dynamic to read. And you're also right about successes and failures. I'm a teenager myself, and I sure don't succeed at everything I try, nor will I ever. However, it's not always easy to walk the line between learning from irrevocable mistakes and ending on a negative note, and that's probably why so many YA fiction characters end up successful.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

SevastianVolkov — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 03:00:12 -0700

- Any MC with the personality of mulch. It doesn't make them more universal or relatable or anything, it just makes me want to use them for gardening. Especially if literally every other character in the novel is about a thousand times more interesting than they are. (I maintain that Twilight could have been a great book if only Edward and Bella weren't in it.) - Any historical novel where the protagonist thinks and acts exactly like a 21st century American teenager. Especially over arranged marriages. They never think "Well, my parents are wealthy landowners and so my entire upbringing was based around the idea that my marriage is going to be about politics and economics and I have absolutely no cultural context for anything else, but hopefully I get an old guy who doesn't have the verve to beat me or bother me for marital relations very much." No, they always, always go "NO! I must marry for LOVE!" and run off sobbing into the night. And they always have 21st century attitudes about class, race, gender, and religion. - Any romance novel where nobody does anything but make out and fall asleep together when the characters would have realistically had sex *ages* ago. I guess the readers might think it's erotic without being as scary to them as full-on sex scenes or even a fade to black, but for some reason it really weirds me out. I read The Shield of Three Lions a little while ago (where the MC is a thirteen-year-old girl pretending to be a boy and she kind of becomes King Richard's catamite) and all he ever does is kiss her and have her sleep in his bed. He's like thirty years old and a king and had basically no motivation not to be sticking it in. Which made the whole arrangement even creepier to me somehow. Oddly enough the book does actually avert the second item, up to a point - the girl initially goes off looking for King Richard because she needs him to arrange a marriage that will allow her to reclaim her family's land. - Also any story where a girl dresses up as a boy and feels comfortable living that way for like a year, and then goes back to being a girl at the earliest convenience (usually when she finds a guy she wants to get with). Are there no transgender boys at all in fiction? - Anything set in Connecticut solely because it's the default cozy suburb state, ignoring that large parts of Connecticut are working class Rust Belt type areas and the cities are mostly dirt poor. You will never see a novel about a fifteen-year-old Latin King from Bridgeport. - Any book that has black characters who somehow miraculously become white for the cover art.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Coffeedrinker — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 06:38:07 -0700

== Clichés I always hated: Teenagers being "at the mercy of raging hormones." Right up to the 20th century a young woman past puberty was mature enough to marry, maintain a household and raise kids. A young man by the age of 14-15 was considered adult enough to marry, serve in wars, start and support a family. None of them failed at that because of "raging hormones," most of them managed quite well. It is our current century and the last which keep youths children. That doesn't mean it is necessary to pander to the idea. The assumption that all that teens have in their heads is sex and being the ball queen/king. Even in our current cultures there are youths who make a major difference and engage themselves in a plethora of ways. Youth doesn't equal shallow or childish. Smart teens who care zilch about the outcome of their education. All teens hate their parents. All teens are hung up on [insert body part of your preference]. (There are teenagers who are perfectly satisfied with their bodies and do not scream murder and heaven help with the changes they go through, and they aren't that rare either) == Clichés I have grown sick of very quickly: Anything supernatural and teens, especially werewolves and vampires. Love triangles (why not instead a happy poly relationship among friends for a change?) If I read another ultra-snarky heroine who at 16 talks like a 40-y/o feminazi (or cynical old man) I'll barf without warning! "Strong female MCs" who simply are prime bitches or mini-versions of neurotic female CEOs. Listless sex, unrealistic sex, shaming sex, prim sex, preachy sex (as in look what can happen!), sex no one would want to have, non-existant sex (if there is sex, then have it and don't hide it) Moralising tales (info is fine, but need not be served with a 2 by 4), right there also a worldbuilding which excludes lifestyles without marriage, children or being with same-sex/many partners. Artificially PC crowds. There are places and areas where people are either mainly white (or any other skin colour). Just because it is opportune to include a variety of ethic backgrounds for stories taking place in the USA, this doesn't mean it will not jar badly for stories taking place in e.g. the Japan of the 14th century or Iceland pretty much anytime. Even an average community in Poland current time would not easily allow for much ethnic variance, certainly not by skin colour. == Clichés I still like Guardian/mentor - teen relationships which work. There used to be such (and heck, Star Wars without Obi Wan Kenobi/Luke would have been empty), but lately they ceased to exist in YA. There are teenagers who accept and cherish learning and working with a parent, mentor or guardian, and they can be fantastic tales of devotion, parental or brotherly types of love and how duty and learning can make things wholesome. Coming of age. Rites of passage.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Lempicka — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 07:02:03 -0700

" A young man by the age of 14-15 was considered adult enough to marry, serve in wars, start and support a family." I got outraged reactions to even mentioning one of my characters doing this. I have a fourteen year old aristocratic boy that tells his father he's interested in looking for a pottential future wife. I didn't think that was completely unrealistic, but a lot of people apparently thought it was. I always thought that children of a certain age / teens in the Victorian era were more or less mini adults, yet I've been told my fourteen year old character shouldn't even be entertaining thoughts of marriage at all, and nor should his parents be considering finding him a match.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

MTeson — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 07:20:20 -0700

Why do you need to end the story on the positive note? And besides, if your character learns what he needs to learn to keep going and keep moving forward then it's not all negative. I think a lot of the problem with so many movies/popular books these days is that they all have nice and tidy happy endings. I always think about the ending of Alfred Hitchcock's "Vertigo," where Jimmy Stewart is standing on the top of the tower, having lost everything, and he finally realizes the person he's become. It does crap all for the plot, but wow is it a powerful ending. If the point of your story is to advance the plot, then yeah you want them to succeed. If the point of your story is to advance the character's growth/develop the theme of the book, failure can be a great way to do that. Another great book that does this is "Hey Nostradamus" by Douglas Coupland.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

MTeson — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 07:32:10 -0700

Another example of a satisfying negative ending (not directed specifically at you, just hitting the reply button): I teach filmmaking to middle schoolers in an after school program, and for one class we made a film where the plot was about a girl who is psychic and knows everyone else's secrets. She's very cynical, doesn't trust anyone, she knows that everyone she's supposed to trust, teachers, parents, friends, that they're all lying to themselves and to each other. She starts meddling into people's affairs to punish those she feels are the most hypocritical. She has one best friend and through her power she learns the friend is a victim of abuse. She calls CPS, but it totally backfires - the girl gets whisked away from school (to go be fostered or something), away from her family, and as she's walking down the hall out of the school she sees the psychic girl and just chews her out - "You did this...I thought we were friends," etc - and the ending of the story is that the psychic girl has learned that sometimes it's better to just be there for people, to love them and stand up for them instead of trying to fix all their problems. Even though she failed when it mattered most and her best friend is gone, now she walks through the halls and doesn't see everyone as a liar - she sees them for what they are - human beings with conflicts and contradictions and good things and bad things. The point is that even if your plot ends on a negative note, the theme and character development don't have to. The story isn't about what happens, it's about what it means. If you can wrap your theme up with a nice beautiful bow, then the ending can be as negative as you need it to be. I've seen so many books and movies where the plot is gearing perfectly towards a negative (or even unfinished) ending, and then all of a sudden it boomerangs towards a happy and cheesy thing that makes everyone happy. Writers are often so afraid of taking their stories to their logical conclusions, which can ultimately be more powerful and satisfying than the happiest ending. Stories with tacked-on and forced happy endings are never upbeat for me. They're always depressing. But a beautiful piece of work that carefully explores themes and characters fully and ends the way it feels it should end while bringing all the themes to conclusion (even if the stories aren't done) always makes me delighted. Other examples I just thought of - "Never Let Me Go" by Kazuo Ishiguro, where the characters struggle to find out what their lives mean and come to the ultimate realization that their lives mean nothing, but the thematic exploration of that is absolutely stunning. Also, "South of the Border, West of the Sun," where the protagonist basically messes up his entire life and marriage by chasing an elusive woman from his past, and at the end he's confronted with the consequences of his actions. His life is by no means fixed, but we as readers are completely satisfied because his character arc has come full circle.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

MTeson — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 07:45:31 -0700

You have to be really careful with this. It's easy to think that parental abandonment is a cliche, but these days statistics are showing that it's not uncommon for both parents in a household to work until 7 or 8pm in some areas (I teach at a middle school where we have next to no parental involvement, and we have a dedicated after school program that goes til 7 every day). We are the only thing keeping some of these kids off the streets doing bad stuff (statistics show that the vast majority of juvenile crime happens in the 2 hours after school). And not because they're bad kids or it's a bad neighborhood or whatever, but because if they go home they literally have nothing to do there until their parents get back. Without trying to assume, I'd wager that the majority of people doing NaNo are from a certain socioeconomic background where parents aren't this way. I know mine weren't. I had family issues, but my parents were able to be there for me when I came home (or right after I came home). Certainly not til dark. Because of this it feels cliche and overused but I have to remind myself that my childhood is not everyone's childhood. A lot of times it's totally real. What is cliche is to assume that absent parents are the result of neglect or abandonment and not just that the parent is trying to work as much as they can to provide for the kid. "Small Steps" by Louis Sachar did this really well by making the protagonist's mother a cashier at a grocery store who had to pick up extra shifts. She wasn't around, but she wasn't neglecting or a bad mom or anything. You can walk that balance and make it part of the story. She can even offer good advice at one point.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Coffeedrinker — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 07:59:40 -0700

Not in Great Britain at the time. Even though children of 9 years worked 8 hours a day legally, it is actually the Victorian era (near the end) which generated the idea of adolescence as a legal matter. So the realistic watershed is probably a couple of years earlier. It was the enormous amount of child labor and child prostition (and this means younger than 10-11) which caused the backlash. As to marriage, that's possible at 16 in Scotland right now and most likely was a possibility in Victorian time under certain circumstances as well. Definitely a century earlier.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

jefflion — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 08:02:33 -0700

You raised some important points. Please, consider making it a separate thread for it; I think there's a lot of things to be discussed here. In short, I agree. There's nothing wrong about making your characters fail, especially if it serves character development. I do think failures shape us into who we are (for good and for bad), and making a character fail to gain maturity is actually a positive note. I'd like to read more YA (and not just YA) novels that end this way. I don't mind a downer ending at all, and plus, this way of ending your novel might not be downer in the first place. Plus, there's a huge difference between a happy and a satisfying ending. I do think the story needs to have a satisfying ending: the one that is good for the story and the one that makes sense. But it doesn't have to be a happy ending; sometimes, a downer ending, or "mission: failure" ending is just what your story needs.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Coffeedrinker — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 08:04:41 -0700

14 however was a common age for guys even as late as the early 20th century to start out in a profession in other countries in Europe, 12-13 was no uncommon age for a girl to be betrothed and married not shortly after. So it really depends on where you look at. There are countries to the day where people are considered adult with 15, legally too.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

jefflion — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 08:13:08 -0700

This is true: parental absence can be due to work. But it's another form of the same cliche. Oh, and I don't even want to go into the whole "working mother = bad mother" trope, because it makes me sick. Still, not having your parents around, even for the justified reasons, affects you (for example, the way your school tries to help Middle school kids who'd otherwise be unsupervised).

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

jefflion — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 08:23:34 -0700

So true! Ok, I don't know about Connecticut, but it's so annoying to have characters in historical context acting like modern middle class white people, and/or characters from non-US cultures acting like American modern middle class people. And this is not just YA problem; it's everywhere. Also, the "just cuddle, no sex" thing bothers me for some reason. It's not just unrealistic, it can become very creepy. Not sure how, but it just does. Just like it's creepy in the "adult" movies and erotica novels when people have sex 5 minutes after they meet for the first time.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

MTeson — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 08:36:19 -0700

Is it a cliche if it's true though? Like, I'm writing a book that's loosely based on some of my kids. Should I magically make their families more stable to avoid the cliche?

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

jefflion — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 08:47:16 -0700

No, the cliche is to "erase" the parents (be it through death, irresponsibility or demanding job)... but not to make the child/teen affected in ANY WAY. Erasing parents is a cliche when it's there only so the kids can work on their on and solve their own problems without the help of the adults. But otherwise, these kids are absolutely unaffected by the lack of parental guidance. It is NOT a cliche when it's put into a realistic context. Now, I can't stand when single parents families are treated as some kind of a tragedy, but let's try to find a balance and make it realistic. My father died when I was 10 and my mother worked. Plus, it was during a horrible economic/political time in my country. It sure affected me somehow. I'm not sure how, because that's the only life I know. And I sure know I wasn't all "oh, my father is dead and my mother is working late oh, poor me!" I remember having the "usual" teenage problems: finding new friends and hobbies, having a crush on a boy who didn't acknowledge my existence, etc. But on the other hand, something was different, I guess, than it is for a teen who lives with both of their parents, or a rich kid, or a kid in America. In short, I'm all for making parents unavailable, but as long as it's realistic. I don't like when people do it only as a "hero must work alone" trope.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Lempicka — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 09:05:03 -0700

The thing was, I'm not even talking about him getting married at 14. He's just saying he's interested in *getting* married at some point, and wants to find some to set up an arranged marriage with for when he's older. As in "Hey, I like this girl and she seems suitable, can you talk to her parents and set things up so we can get hitched when we're old enough?" kind of thing (though he doesn't use those exact words obviously).

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Lempicka — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 09:10:38 -0700

I think it depends on the person though. I *am* that way myself. I have no real interest in sex, and if I was close with someone that's probably the most I would do. And there's no shortage of asexual people about - just check out these forums. I've seen at least a dozen people describe themselves as asexual here, and that's without searching very hard. Of course there's loads of people who are interested in sex too, but I really don't think it's ridiculous to have fictional characters that don't have sex, and it's something I actually prefer. I dislike sex in stories, it's the main reason I don't watch the new Game of Thrones tv series. At any rate, I hope people don't consider me 'creepy' just because I'd rather cuddle than have sex.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

jefflion — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 09:37:52 -0700

Oh, don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong about asexual characters (or being asexual), or characters who want to wait till marriage, etc. Obviously, not everybody is the same. But you need to establish that your characters are one of those people. You have to make it appropriate for them to behave a certain way (not just about sex... everything). The "creepy vibe" (imo), is not about people not being interested in sex because they aren't interested, but because the situation is presented outside any context. What happens (or not) should make sense for these specific characters, specific plot and specific circumstances. NOT because an author wants to keep her books PG, or because she wants to moralize, or because she thinks publishers won't accept YA novels with sex scenes, or because she sucks at writing this sort of scenes.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Coffeedrinker — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 09:41:23 -0700

I don't understand the freaking out. Fact is that a 14 y/o had to work 12-14 hours a day if he had to work, people died young, and the marriagable age was lower than today, way lower. At 14 in the 19th century he wasn't too young. It looks as if the first watershed was around 1850 when the Juvenile Offenders Act raised the age of being a juvenile from 14 to 16 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_children%27s_rights_in_the_United_Kingdom). That is in line with the fact that the idea of "adolescence" as opposed to adulthood after puberty originated at around 1900. So I really do not understand why people would be scandalised, a 14 y/o youth would have been as good as an adult.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Lempicka — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 09:51:53 -0700

That's what I thought! Thank you! Honestly, they were practically screaming that 'he's just a child!' and wouldn't be even glancing at such matters until he was ten/fifteen years older.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Coffeedrinker — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 09:57:38 -0700

That's real nonsense, especially as you are in Scotland where people may legally marry without parental consent with 16! ;-)

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

DesireeM81 — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 11:20:42 -0700

For me, I felt that Katniss's decision was really well played by Collins. The main point of the story was not about her decision and she rarely focused on the fact that she in the end would have to make the choice. I think they fact that Katniss in the end didn't really get a choice is in keeping with the book where Katniss is never in control of her own life. That didn't give anything away I hope.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

DesireeM81 — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 11:23:00 -0700

My FMC is part Irish part Chinese. She has that pale skin that isn't pale like white pale but pale like she doesn't tan well.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

DesireeM81 — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 11:28:42 -0700

This! I feel that although most of my characters have semi-happy endings. None of them really accomplish much in the course of their story. Book 1 ends up right back at where they were in the beginning. Book 2, while they world changes, she doesn't have much of an effect in the actual war that ensues, she just played her small part and moves on with her life with battle scars. Book 3 isn't quite finished yet but I doubt either MC will make much change happen. They are up against powers that are much bigger than two queer boys. In this years NaNo, may be the first book that something actual changes because of the main character but she has connections into the government already, is politically smart and has the help of plenty of adults. She has to struggle to understand what her life means to her and to the world and how she can go about bringing the greater changes she believes in. She won't be the sole heroine either. Their are other people, adults and teenagers involved.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Wendigo — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 11:40:03 -0700

I grew up on the Olympic Peninsula, so that is my default setting--when I just describe what I know. Even when I try to create an imagined fantasy world I tend to have a rocky beach, near a dense, mossy forest. :) And you are right, there is so much more than rain!!!

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Wendigo — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 11:52:20 -0700

You should read The Girl of Fire and Thorns. So very very very good!!!! And the FMC is dark skinned.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

chel.c.cam — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 12:32:14 -0700

We Mainers appreciate that :)

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

chel.c.cam — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 12:33:44 -0700

I'm sure people would figure out what it is. It's actually the third book in the series that just came out that talks about the crawdads. The first and second have rampant inconsistences, but that was the one I thought of first.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

winter_jasmine — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:41:53 -0700

I completely agree with you about failure - having your characters fail, just like we all do in real life. But I'm not so sure about 'sad' endings as such. I think, in children's literature, and fantasy in particular (my focus for this year, as I'm writing a MG fantasy), you have to always keep in mind the importance of escapism as a driving force behind why children read. I think there's a fine balance between a good ending - not all sappy and 'happy ever after' as if none of the bad things ever happened, but also not completely negative and without hope. IMO, the struggle, successes and failures of the characters within the story must lead somewhere, ultimately, hopeful. There is also an aspect of fulfilling the expectations of the reader, while at the same time challenging their perceptions and getting them to think differently. Not sure if this is making any sense - rather long day, and David Attenborough's trying to distract me with his rather awesome and impressive new series, Frozen Planet ;) Jaz

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

winter_jasmine — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 14:22:38 -0700

Just found the other thread ;)

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Writing_Fast — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 17:59:56 -0700

I completely agree with this. I hate that all of these YA books have these perfect perfect guys that the FMC falls for. Why can't the average guy be enough?

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Writing_Fast — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 18:07:58 -0700

I agree with so much of what you posted. In my novel I want to focus more on the friendships and connections made with the people around my MCs, not just who they are dating. There is so much more to life than who youbare in a fling with and those people who will be in your life forever, good or bad. And what is with all of these books where these way way bad things are happening to the characters and thei only response is to sit and whine about it, how about getting on their feet and actually doing something about it?

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

esussman — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 18:40:24 -0700

This. Totally agree. I mean, what story hasn't been told already, in some form or another? Putting a spin on cliches can make it interesting.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Sunny_Signs — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 19:29:46 -0700

Ridiculously witty/snarky female teenaged narrators with something to prove. I love Maximum Ride and Katniss, as I think that their authors wrote the snarkiness very well, but if I have to read one more copy-cat character who just can't keep her mouth shut, I'm gonna scream. Not every girl is a total jerk in her head, kay? :p

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

FairytaleHero — Thu, 27 Oct 2011 11:48:27 -0700

I dunno, I quite like fourth wall breakage. Sometimes first person is written as if the character is telling their story to the audience, rather than the book just being their thoughts, and I like books like that. It really depends on how frequently they break the fourth wall though. If it's fairly consistent throughout the book then it works but if it's only once or twice then I suppose it would seem like they were talking to their own mind.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

chel.c.cam — Thu, 27 Oct 2011 11:54:32 -0700

I don't know about anyone else, but I find people more attractive after I get to know them. Maybe it's just me but I hardly ever have the ZOMG! He's so SEEEXXYYYYY!!!! I MUST HAVE THIS Give it up, you don't even know his middle name. Along with the good-looking thing is the fact that every female within a fifty-mile radius things said guy is hot. I'm sorry, but this doesn't happen. I'm sure there are people out there who don't find David Beckham hot (I have never met any, but I'm sure they exist), and he's... yeah. I have never in my life seen teenage girls throw themselves at a hot guy like they do in YA books. Unless he's Robert Pattinson or something, but that's only because he's famous for playing one of those hot guys.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

chel.c.cam — Thu, 27 Oct 2011 11:55:44 -0700

OMG, Dumblegandwans. Freaking hilarious.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

jefflion — Thu, 27 Oct 2011 12:15:50 -0700

I don't find David Beckham (or Robert Pattinson for that matter) attractive. But I don't want to present myself as immune to this: I do have celebrity crushes. But that's another story, However, I do think there are real life guys (and girls) that are considered "universally hot". Every school has one or more of them. Obviously, there will always be people who don't find them attractive (or pretend they don't), but a "teen heart throb" is a real life issue, I think.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

arnis1 — Thu, 27 Oct 2011 12:47:19 -0700

Agreed. I also don't like the character who is described (by themselves or others) as quiet and shy, but constantly gives their opinion on everything and doesn't care what anyone thinks. Either they're quiet and shy or they're bold and brash--they can't be both. (And feeling "shy" around a crush does not make one a shy person. It just means you're not sure how to act around them because you don't know them yet. It doesn't change your personality.) Smart does not equal super genius who never needs to study or do homework because they learn by osmosis and teachers automatically pass them. Most of the "smart kids" in the real world are the ones who work harder at academics than everyone else. They are not aimless. They have actual goals and plans for the future (something that most teens have even if they haven't decided which plan they will go with yet). You are not a "nerd" or "quirky" just because you say you are. There are actual traits, knowledge, and lifestyles that go with those. Also, smart and nerd are no longer the same thing. You can be smart and not know the difference between Star Wars and Star Trek, you cannot be a nerd and not know that! Characters whose choices almost never affect the plot. I can't stand stories where everything happens TO the MC(s). Or where almost all of their decisions (no matter how dumb or how many pages they take up worrying and whining about it) end with good, happy results. The MC's decisions should actually mean something. While every choice shouldn't end badly, some choices should end badly. Things can happen to the MC, but the MC should also be making things happen. While I'm not a big fan of love at first sight, if it needs to happen, at least make the process of "getting to know you"/"we're in a relationship" difficult. Your eyes may be dreamy, but I can't stand your love for hot pink or your Pokemon collection. Just because you love someone doesn't mean you like them all the time. There is something in their personality that gets on your last nerve. Nobody is perfect (not even vampires/werewolves/whatever). Relationships are hard work. Even if the world is against you, you'll still have conflict between each other. That's what makes the romance interesting for the rest of us. When everything is always lovey-dovey for them, it makes us want to puke (just like in real life). Making love triangles a metaphor for good vs evil (as in, slut v virgin or bully v nice guy). Seriously? Your FMC can't decide if she'd rather be slapped around or treated well? Plus, some girls aren't sleeping around because they're just a horrible person. Maybe she's never been with a guy who didn't expect sex on the first date. Maybe she thinks that's all a relationship is. Maybe the virgin girl is manipulative and controlling; gaining power in a relationship by promising and then withholding sex. Don't make it a metaphor. Make the people real. Give everyone true attributes--virtues and flaws. Don't make the love interests exactly the same or complete contrasts. Give the MC good reasons to be with either person, and good reasons NOT to be with either person. AND reasons why the MC would be better off on their own. The MC should have friends/family with their own input. Situations should pull them apart from both love interests (instead of the constant when one's gone the other comes along). And don't have the MC spend most of their time with one love interest while only thinking about the other. There should be a balance of time between each. Finally, the MC should have other interests/conflicts/situations/personality going on in their life besides these two people. The other things should have an impact on the process and ultimate outcome of the triangle. These are the kind of things that would actually make me care about a love triangle.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

CaptainHelena — Thu, 27 Oct 2011 13:29:39 -0700

LOL. that is hilarious. i would read that

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

KBelle — Thu, 27 Oct 2011 18:05:01 -0700

I put down any book that the back cover says: "(Insert name here) was just your average 15-17 year old girl..."

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

goblingirl — Thu, 27 Oct 2011 19:30:07 -0700

You know, I'd love to see a story where we have a bland girl and then something happens to her (like a curse) that causes two random magic hot people to be unduly interested in her, and she spends the whole book FREAKING THE HECK OUT over it and trying to get rid of them. ...in fact I think I love it so much I might write it o.o

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

brianarants — Thu, 27 Oct 2011 20:47:41 -0700

[quote=arnis1] Make the people real. Give everyone true attributes--virtues and flaws. Don't make the love interests exactly the same or complete contrasts. Give the MC good reasons to be with either person, and good reasons NOT to be with either person. AND reasons why the MC would be better off on their own. The MC should have friends/family with their own input. Situations should pull them apart from both love interests (instead of the constant when one's gone the other comes along). And don't have the MC spend most of their time with one love interest while only thinking about the other. There should be a balance of time between each. Finally, the MC should have other interests/conflicts/situations/personality going on in their life besides these two people. The other things should have an impact on the process and ultimate outcome of the triangle. These are the kind of things that would actually make me care about a love triangle. [/quote] THIS! I wish I could have explained it but you're obviously much better at it. Anyways, this is why I still like those love triangles, even if the domination of what everyone has seen is the same old one girl between two guys. Love triangles have so much potential if they would focus on each of the characters--the good and the bad traits--and what they have to offer each other.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Arianna Erlaine — Thu, 27 Oct 2011 21:10:18 -0700

That's one of the funny things about writing. Even if /you/ avoid the cliche, your readers and your editor may insist you use it. Whether it's a book, a movie, or a video game, there's often a wide gap between realism and what an audience is comfortable with. It's part of the reason /why/ so many cliches like that exist.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Arianna Erlaine — Thu, 27 Oct 2011 21:20:10 -0700

[quote=arnis1] Characters whose choices almost never affect the plot. I can't stand stories where everything happens TO the MC(s). Or where almost all of their decisions (no matter how dumb or how many pages they take up worrying and whining about it) end with good, happy results. The MC's decisions should actually mean something. While every choice shouldn't end badly, some choices should end badly. Things can happen to the MC, but the MC should also be making things happen. [/quote] Oops. Guilty! One cliche out of all the ones in this and other threads isn't bad, though, given that my usual characters are Mary Sues... I was going for something totally different this time: a girl who is /not/ an orphan, /not/ special, /not/ interested in romance or the target of it, and does /not/ save herself. She has a horrible, horrible experience that is very confusing and isn't explained until the end, and then she gets very, very lucky and is rescued by a total stranger who inadvertently caused the whole mess. Her reward for all her decisions, good and bad, is that she gets to survive... and then somehow has to go back to a normal life, PTSD and all. Except for one bad decision in the first chapter, /everything/ in the book happens /to/ her and is outside of her control. So much for being different... =P

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

bulldoze — Fri, 28 Oct 2011 05:51:31 -0700

[quote=Sunny_Signs] Ridiculously witty/snarky female teenaged narrators with something to prove. I love Maximum Ride and Katniss, as I think that their authors wrote the snarkiness very well, but if I have to read one more copy-cat character who just can't keep her mouth shut, I'm gonna scream. Not every girl is a total jerk in her head, kay? :p [/quote] I agree with this. The witty wordplay in a lot of YA novels now is fun to read, but when EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER in the book is snarky and coming up with a great quip in the middle of a conversation it's distracting and makes it hard to tell who's speaking during a conversation. Not everyone has the same sense of humor and not everyone is bursting with witty one-liners, people!

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

cidercupcakes — Fri, 28 Oct 2011 08:18:52 -0700

Totally in agreement on love triangles -- but what I hate even more is when the reader is clearly meant to be rooting for the hero/heroine and the love interest to get together, but the love interest has an over-the-top strawman (or -woman) as an established love interest. Someone who's just so unbelievably awful that it throws you right out of the story, because the author clearly just couldn't be bothered doing the work of making the love triangle believable, or facing the fact that an interesting hero/heroine has flaws, too. I mean, I'm pretty lazy, including as a writer, but come on! My favorite subversion of this probably remains the first Princess Diaries book -- Mia is convinced that Josh must be wonderful and deep and brilliant, but has been somehow ensnared by shallow, nasty, mean cheerleader Lana. Then when Josh dumps Lana for Mia and takes her to the dance, Mia realizes that no, he he really is just as shallow and nasty as Lana after all (more so, even, because by the end of the series Mia and Lana have become friends), and only dumped Lana for her because he figured he could get his picture in the paper by dating a princess. (As for love triangles in general, one of the things about life as a teenage fanfic writer is that there's a good chance that by age seventeen your response to them will be "threesome! and/or polyamory!" And then you'll start writing these even in things WITHOUT love triangles. Good times, good times.)

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

dreamhazer — Fri, 28 Oct 2011 08:40:26 -0700

The one that annoys me most? A teenage MC who ins erious danger but just can't bring him-/herself to tell an adult. I mean, SERIOUSLY? Am I to believe that if a 14-year-old girl is being threatened that she's not going to tell an adult/parental figure? The last several books I've read had plots that depended on the the MC not telling ana dult what was going on (because fi they had told an adult --- BAM. Story over, conflict resolved.) When it's legit -- there's a reason no one listens to the character, character has serious personal issues that keep them from telling -- I can handle it. But no young teenage girl is too proud to tell her father that an adult is threatening to kill her.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

arnis1 — Fri, 28 Oct 2011 17:36:12 -0700

Yeah. I still like love triangles, too. You're right. They have so much potential. It's unfortunate that there are lot out there that so unimaginative. But they don't have to be killed off, just given new life.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

arnis1 — Fri, 28 Oct 2011 18:04:42 -0700

Hahaha. That's okay. Actually, thrillers and horror do a very good job of having a lot of things happen to characters that they have no control over whatsoever. I love those genres. But since so many things are out their control, in these stories, it is the smaller decisions the characters make that are the difference between surviving well, barely surviving, or not surviving at all. Those small choices your character makes are important because they ultimately result in her survival. I've read a stories where, for instance, the MC is wandering in a deserted place, chooses to not rest, eat or drink, but walks for hours and is able to fight off bad guys and keep going. The MC's decision not to take care of their body should have meant something, but it didn't. And that was the kind of thing that happened throughout the book. I've read others where even bigger choices meant nothing in the end. Don't get me worried about what a character's doing, if it doesn't do anything. You're probably not guilty of this at all since you said her decisions lead to her reward. As long they lead to something, and thus have meaning, I'm good. :)

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Lalatin — Sun, 30 Oct 2011 15:37:43 -0700

Have to agree, the love triangles are so overused. There are three characters in mine, a MC and then two secondary characters. The Main character is dating a secondary character and the third character is the MCs ex. Sure the ex may try and get the MC back, it will never happen because the MC sees how much of a bitch the ex is and sees how abusive she is. There is no 'love triangle' really just a desperate character who needs to stay in rehab.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Lalatin — Sun, 30 Oct 2011 15:51:34 -0700

I try not to let my characters be super pale. I base their skin tone of of their ethnicity, like my main MC is pretty french, which some people take to mean as PALE but...yea if you've been to France you know there are a lot of really tan people over there. (Plus she has a little bit of Italian blood in her). But seriously, why ARE they all so pale. What's wrong with being tan? Make characters relatable to the 80-something percent of us who are not porcelain.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

kitandkat — Sun, 30 Oct 2011 17:07:56 -0700

Is overly-snarky first person (and oftentimes present) cliche yet? Why not? Can it be? I wish... :/ I loved it when Meg Cabot first started writing but now it seems like every girl YA character is a Meg Cabot heroine, including Meg Cabot's own heroines. *headdesk* Also, I'm another one setting with Maine, though I didn't know it was a cliche. I'll hopefully visit sometime before it is published, and have someone read over it. Most of my story doesn't take place there, though, the characters are just from there. Since I'm more new adult they go to school out-of-state.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Mikkiness — Sun, 30 Oct 2011 17:30:01 -0700

Oh yes. So over that, I'm deliberately trying to keep the parents in the picture - out of the way at the start because my MMC has been rebelling/pushing them away, and then back in once he realises that actually, not having to spend the rest of your life with your parents believing that you're dead is quite nice.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Mikkiness — Sun, 30 Oct 2011 19:00:09 -0700

I don't know, for me this isn't a cliche, maybe because it actually is my experience. I'm generally the nice, shy, quiet girl (at least at school), but I met my best friend when we were about 8, and while I can't guarantee the first three years of our friendship (due to somewhat fuzzy memory), we haven't fought once in the last seven years (adding up to ten years total friendship), despite plenty of differences in opinion. I actually hate it a lot more when friends aren't loyal, Ron Weasley drove me up the wall for pretty much this reason.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Mikkiness — Sun, 30 Oct 2011 19:11:46 -0700

Oh! Yes! The lack of Clique Warfare thing. My school doesn't have cliques either - I can't understand the (usually American) novels where evilness is blamed on being a cheerleader or wearing makeup. My school has: Extroverts (who the names of the majority of the 200-300 people in their year) and Introverts (who can usually barely remember the names of around half of their classmates). Within that (and across that) we have this weird thing called friends, who will usually wear different clothes to you, like different music to you and take different subjects to you. Occasionally a group of friends will share an interest or a hobby, in which case nobody else knows, and nobody else cares. The idea of anyone falling at somebody else's feet in anything other than friendly mockery is just plain weird. As for that matter, is the idea of making friends with somebody because you both happen to spend lunchtimes in the library as opposed to actually liking each other.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

KatBrown — Sun, 30 Oct 2011 19:14:43 -0700

I'm kind of really tired of the FMC virgin. It's such an antiquated concept that the "good" female character must be "pure" (I hate to use that word here but it emphesises my point) And the more experienced girls are either "evil" or end up being taught some terrible life lesson about sex before marriage. This really just supports that outdated "a girl is only worth her untouched sexuality" concept. I'm not saying that somebody should write a book telling girls to go out and have sex right now and I'm not saying that there should be more sex scenes in YA, but a few FMC's who are are more sexually aware and aren't embarrassed about that fact would be kind of refreshing.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

ZipherAvenger — Sun, 30 Oct 2011 19:37:07 -0700

Overly happy endings. Especially when the nerdy girl somehow gets the nasty ol' cheerleader to storm out of the prom, shaking her fist and screaming, "Curse you bloody kids! Curse yyoouuu!!!" while she cries and mascara runs down her tanned little cheeks. Oh, and the nerdy girl ends up with her boyfriend and the two are Prom Queen/King and blah blah blah. Yeah, no. The "popular" girls I've met really aren't that mean. Yes, they maybe obsess a little too much over their looks and parties, but they're actually nice. They're just a little distant in the head, though. They definitely don't shake their fists in your face and yell, "YOU LUDACRIS FOOLS!!" (I'm sorry, I just had to add a My Immortal joke, there.) But really, it gets annoying after a while. Thats why my YA novel will have a not so happy ending and, hopefully, believable events happening.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

jefflion — Sun, 30 Oct 2011 19:53:10 -0700

I think the virgin MC is potentially attractive to the authors because it gives an opportunity for rite de passage type of a story. Not that the actual sexual act has huge significance, but sexuality IS a big deal for teens, some sort of sexual coming of age. So I kind of understand if authors want to follow the character "before" and "after", so to speak. However, in order to do this sexual coming of age, something needs to actually HAPPEN. It doesn't mean the character has to have sex, but some sort of change/development. Many authors decide to do it via a secondary character (a friend for example) whose sexual experience makes MC think. Personally, I find that a cheap strategy, especially the whole "sex = trouble" message that can often be seen in YA. I don't know. My MC starts as a virgin because I want to show this change, this development. She's not a virgin by the end of the story, if it means something. She won't suffer horrible consequences because of having sex, and she'll actually learn you can have sex with someone, realize he's not the right guy for you... and move on.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Coffeedrinker — Sun, 30 Oct 2011 20:42:03 -0700

I subverted this in my story. My FMC is quite experienced and jaded about physical sex in my story. And she definitely is a strong, mature and rounded character with clear rather sensible goals. She ends up teaching someone something about sexuality, but again this also is subverted from the usual. What I by now seriously hate reading is teenagers written buying into the "you have to wait for marriage to have sex the first time" thing, with the whole underpinnings of patriarchal Christian Right ideals about virginity.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

jefflion — Sun, 30 Oct 2011 21:02:54 -0700

Well, the coming of age/developing sexuality is sure not limited to a) female virginity, b) heterosexuality, c) virginity. It can be anything. What I'm saying is that I don't mind characters being virgins or whatever, as long as they develop their sexuality over the course of the story. (Obviously, not all stories have to deal with sex, but if they don't why mentioning whether that character is virgin? I don't see sexual experience as a character trait). Now, to be honest, I haven't encountered the "no sex before marriage" thing that much in YA (at least the one published in the last 20-30 years). What I've encountered, however, is "no sex unless it's a 'true luv' / 'very deep and meaningful teen relationship', or else you'll suffer". Either you'll get pregnant or get a STD. Or you'll end up feeling miserable because you weren't ready. As if "being ready" is always about having a great long term relationship. Some people are ready to have sex without a relationship. Others are in a relationship but don't want to have sex. It's ok. What I dislike is to present only one, very narrow idea of sexuality as acceptable. (And I'm not even talking about the way non-heterosexual relationships are treated).

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

AdrienEtienne — Mon, 31 Oct 2011 01:39:29 -0700

I grew up spending a lot of time on the NorCal coast, which has a lot in common with the coast up here from everything I've seen, and yeah, it sort of just makes it's way into my writing. When I think "out in nature," I think cliffs and fog and evergreen trees (some of them really bent by wind) and rocky coast line. And lots of forest. I need to go spend more time out on the Olympic Peninsula now that I live up here. Since what I've seen on the trip between Seattle and Port Townsend (which I've made several times) is absolutely gorgeous. Adrien Etienne

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

yttar — Wed, 02 Nov 2011 09:25:53 -0700

That could make for a pretty interesting story. Go for it.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

sylphiawings — Wed, 02 Nov 2011 13:26:43 -0700

That actually might work! I would love to read that XD

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

sylphiawings — Wed, 02 Nov 2011 13:30:47 -0700

Dumblegandwans! LMAO. Thay're amazing, but extremely hard to write, in my opinion. But still, I love them XD

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

sylphiawings — Wed, 02 Nov 2011 13:47:04 -0700

Honestly, I think some FMC's who are "pure" are not without merit. It depends on their upbringing. Maybe they were raised normally without being exposed to a degree of pr0n? I was raised this way, and was generally sex-savvy until my friends called me out on it; saying that it I don't have a general knowledge of it, despite being virgin, is too outdated. What I'm saying is that there are "pure" types of people in this world, and might not have been called out upon like I did. There's truth in every cliche, after all. How their alignment to good or evil depends, though. Of course, there are "pure", evil characters, and there are sexy, good characters. Seeing these types of FMC's refreshingly avert this, and you're right, it's a good extension of this cliche.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

reginarex — Wed, 02 Nov 2011 14:27:27 -0700

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but lack of development when it comes to learning new skills/techniques the MC has never encountered before. I mainly see this in YA Fantasy novels. It's basically like, oh you've just become a vampire? YOU ARE THE MOST POWERFUL VAMPIRE. You just gained some new special power? YOU ARE THE MOST SKILLED AT IT. You can talk to orca whales now? YOU GET ALL THE ORCAS. It just always seems rushed to me and I've seen it happening more and more. Heck, it even happens in regular YA novels too. Take sex as an example. Two nervous and fumbling virgins are not going to have mind-blowing out of this world sex. It just comes off as almost lazy writing and can even take away a huge chunk of character development.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

AnOctopusGarden — Wed, 02 Nov 2011 18:17:02 -0700

I don't understand YA cliches. I just don't get where they came from. I mean, I kind of do. I'm a teenager. I do teenagery things. But what I've realized is that the stuff we read about, the love triangles, good girl/bad boy, well that only happens to a few people. I don't read many books where the girl sits at home and watches Doctor Who while staring at the attractive boys in her class just because she likes their faces. The girls are always "Blah blah blah I'm in love with this guy I've never said more than two words before blah blah." Is it so impossible for people to just admit they think someone is cute on the outside? I don't get it. Also. I want to read a book where a pretty girl falls in love with an ugly boy and then ends up leaving him for something she wants to do. She doesn't leave him because she doesn't love him, or because she's too good for him. She actually likes this boy with her heart and her soul, but she ditches him because that's what teenage girls do. So yeah I don't know. That's what I'm writing my novel about. (Excuse my rant that makes no sense.)

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

C. M. Koenig — Wed, 02 Nov 2011 19:47:39 -0700

I have a Middle Eastern (Turkish) female protag if that makes you feel any better. And I don't skirt racial issues, even if it is fantasy. I also have the small horror of a lot of guys do like her and she's not plain--she's 'exotic' to them, a 'barbarian princess' if you will (kind of a take on all those dastardly MRAs who are like: "Get yourself a foreign wife, she'll be submissive and not a fat Caucasian!). She hates the fact they all like to /look/ at her, guys up and down the age spectrum, and she tries to act more masculine even though she's very, very vain because of it. Oooh, and she's a witch as well--and some of the guys, once caught by their SOs, just blame that about her. Like: "She put a spell on me, clearly!" Then she befriends the nephew of the man who killed her parents, a warlock--because he's seemingly pre-puberty maturity-wise and doesn't leer at her creepily, just seems confused by anything to do with intimacy. Until he kisses her while drunk. And there we go again. Because, really, if a girl is getting a lot of attention from her male peers, she's probably getting attention from male teachers, the town pastor, and all the creepy construction workers and their like of the world. She probably gets told to "Smile!" and people call her bad names, or tell her to cover herself up, or gossip that she's going to be pregnant by sixteen (if it's modern). The emotional damage of stuff like that should be in there--a really pretty girl being creeped on by some weirdo supernatural guy shouldn't feel 'flattered' if he, say, stalks her into her bedroom and watches her while she sleeps; she would probably be terrified and call the cops, because it's her worst nightmare come true--all those horrible things guys whisper to her when they think no one else can hear and what teachers won't do anything about because they think she's just as 'easy' because she has a nice face are coming true. Any suitably non-oblivious female protag should have some grasp on this stuff--because men are taught at a young age that talking about women like they're pieces of meat or God's eye-candy is perfectly normal and that flipping skirts is 'cute'.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

C. M. Koenig — Wed, 02 Nov 2011 19:55:05 -0700

Would you like a book where the main character is jerked around by superior forces and eventually gets the girl, who is a pregnant girl, mind you--only for her to die a brutal death and him then being forced to leave the terrible, terrible world he's been in for seven months? And his (male) best friend, who loves him, be protective to an almost suicidal line, only to be ignored completely? And then the MMC to leave said best friend entirely once he has himself somewhat back together, too scared of infecting the 'good' with his 'badness'? And, at the end, the best friend attempts to give the MMC their beloved dog, only for them to be turned down? (In other news, can you tell I love writing tragedies? However, that shiz doesn't get sold--or so I thought. Maybe there's enough I've-read-this-SAME-book-but-with-a-different-title-ten-times people might like something new? Also, feel free to donate shock blankets for Blaze, the best friend. He may need him by the time /the series/ relating to the plot above (which describes book one) is finished. He may need one already--and I'm only on chapter six. Poor Blaze.)

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

C. M. Koenig — Wed, 02 Nov 2011 20:23:15 -0700

"Love triangles (why not instead a happy poly relationship among friends for a change?)" An author tried to do this recently. The publisher suggested that she have the male character involved just cheat on his girlfriend and call it a day--because 'it was better than an open relationship, duh'.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

C. M. Koenig — Wed, 02 Nov 2011 20:37:13 -0700

Which is why my MC this year sees dead people . . . and death omens . . . but the crazy old lady who likes Westerns knows way more than he does, he's a weakling in comparison to the fey overlords (quiet, silent overlords), and he's sort of a fail. He isn't in control of the whole 'medium' thing. He hates it--the one thing that makes him a 'speshul snowflake'. However, he's pretty kick-a if catty (this appears a no-b-word-zone--however I can compare people to gender-neutral cats!), he allows himself to be saved, and, while everyone (mostly the dead and a few dark fey) thinks he's the savior, he really isn't. He's totally meant to be the sidekick this entire time. Stupid dead people thinking he's supposed to reanimate them or whatever. He isn't a necromancer. It's like they never learned how to use labels appropriately. (I only feel bad because I have the 'dead parents' cliche, but, then again, the death are attracted to him and so is the harbinger of death, so it isn't surprising that a lot of people he loves die eventually. However, he has a healthy, supportive, and loving relationship with his foster mother, Darlene--even if she has no clue about half of what he does, already run ragged by the more obviously 'rascally' Kas.)

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

anzoey — Thu, 03 Nov 2011 00:43:03 -0700

The snarky heroine cliche is the hardest one for me to let go of. >__< I know it's over saturated in the market right now, but you know what? Some people actually DO think and sometimes say those things. I recall being pretty snarky myself at 17. Call it the result of too much internet influence, Perez Hilton, 4chan, whatever, but I know many people who trade quips and witticisms as part of their daily dialogue. Part of the problem, other people have said, is that these quips are coming from high schoolers, who may or may not necessarily have the maturity and experience for such humor. (i.e., sounding like a world weary cosmopolitan at 16 ) again, your mileage may vary, since my HS group of friends was like this. So far, my story is using the snark cliche pretty hard, but if I worry about it too much, I'll never write anything. I figure I'll just fix it in heavy editing later on. Though.. I am 27, and I'm aging my FMC 25 so I'm allowed a little more snark, right? =P

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Tessadragon — Thu, 03 Nov 2011 02:09:50 -0700

[quote=uncreativecarly] This! Or when the parents are so weak and oblivious that they can't tell that their child is smoking crack or whatever and doing it right under their noses. The adults have to be characters too, as developed as the kids. [/quote] I know, I had to blow up my kid's house to get the mom out of the way *innocent grin* don't worry, i stashed the girl in the closet and sent the mom off to become the enslaved bride of some demon lord...

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Tessadragon — Thu, 03 Nov 2011 02:19:02 -0700

Love triangles: If I do that, I make it clear which guy I'm rooting for and I'll let my character actually hate the other guys trying to mess around with her. Oblivious parents: just cos I've got them doesn't mean I'll inflict them on my characters. If anything, the parents have been worse than the kids, so when they warn the kids, 'Don't cast a memory spell on the police station,' they mean it. The bully: There's always a bully. So when I create a bully, I make sure that they're worse even than the ones I've known, and I make sure they get comeuppance by being murdered or turned into the lochness monster. The You Are Secretly Adopted: You can dream it all you like, but it just doesn't wash. You don't find that actually you're conveniently related to the clan whose bloodline can ensure your success on such and such a quest (House of Night, conveniently finds he's related to a Scottish clan), If you need their blood, get a jar and a needle, tie them down and have a drink. The It's a big deal to squash out racism by having a black kid as the best friend: No. It's best to have a best friend who can invent killer robots that are on YOUR SIDE. The Enemy is actually the person you think is your best friend/lover/gonna get the virginity: This just encourages paranoia within the school years, looking over your shoulder and wondering, oh my god, is he plotting my downfall? Sometimes the bad guy is just the one trying to run you down in their car.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Coffeedrinker — Thu, 03 Nov 2011 08:30:19 -0700

Do you have names? Or at least the relevant country? A major player, or a small publisher? I think this is pretty horrid, because it is as judgemental and negative as homophobia.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Coffeedrinker — Thu, 03 Nov 2011 08:38:48 -0700

I'm puzzled here. Why would sexual activity level and/or knowledge have anything to do with "purity" and what is that anyway? Sex has nothing to do with basic concepts of evil or good of a person. It's a normal physical activity for most, it's simple biology and there is absolutely no instrinsic value attached to virginity once a woman is past puberty. Before puberty the hymen (or corona) was a means to prevent infection of the interior genital organs of a female child, just as the attached to the glans prepuce of the male child prior to late childhood or even puberty is a prevention of infections and injuries as well. Any "purity" idea hoisted onto the petard of virginity is in reality a possessive trait of patriarchy and a controlling mechanism.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Coffeedrinker — Thu, 03 Nov 2011 08:40:47 -0700

If I only understood what the attraction of snark is...

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Sidoniehelena — Thu, 03 Nov 2011 09:36:38 -0700

[quote=KBelle] I put down any book that the back cover says: "(Insert name here) was just your average 15-17 year old girl..." [/quote] This makes me so annoyed sometimes. The book always goes back on the shelf.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

heybluebird — Thu, 03 Nov 2011 11:38:05 -0700

I was the shy, antisocial type of girl (still am actually) but I have that best friendship. We've been best friends since the second grade. We've had our bumps but its always come back to us. I don't think its unrealistic for the shy, somewhat antisocial girl to find a loyal and true best friend.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

KatBrown — Thu, 03 Nov 2011 11:49:09 -0700

Snark allows humor in typically non-humorous situations. Think Darkly Dreaming Dexter etc. I think where it becomes a cliche is when authors use sarcasm/snark constantly and without reason. I feel like a lot of people think that they're cleverer in their heads so authors use character dialogue to show people how clever they can be even though most people aren't that quick/cynical/etc.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

heybluebird — Thu, 03 Nov 2011 11:53:06 -0700

Okay, my book has a love triangle, but it is incredibly relevant to the plot. In my story, there are two families with a curse. One of my FMCs is cursed to die by the time she turns 21. She just turned 20 and at this point in the story, doesn't believe in the curse. This is primarily because there was one oldest Crest daughter that lived, two generations ago. I have an explanation for the anomaly, but that will come later in the story. One of my MMCs is cursed to fall in love with Erika (the FMC whose cursed to die). Jayson is engaged to Olivia (one of the other FMCs) but due to the curse cannot help but be attracted to Erika. However, Erika turns down Jayson's advances for the most part. This is with the exception of the one time Jayson kisses her and Olivia sees. Olivia breaks up with Jayson, not because she doesn't love him but because she doesn't ever want to feel as though she's the second choice in the equation and wants him to be able to find out his real feelings. Throughout the story, all three characters discuss with each other the implications of the curse and work together to try to break it. Also, because this is a 'new adult' story (if that's what we're calling the awkward age of college where publishers like to pretend we don't exist as a subsection of literature), the parents aren't around frequently. The only exception is Erika's mother, Jennifer. She is in the story and does call a lot of the shots (particularly in context of Erika's little sister Emily who is 17 and lives at home). Cliches I'm tired of: Immature love triangles: If you're going to have a love triangle, cool. Just handle it well. Don't have a wishy washy girl or guy in the center. They annoy the hell out of me.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Coffeedrinker — Thu, 03 Nov 2011 12:14:01 -0700

Well, the problem is that I entirely fail to see snark as humorous. Instead I perceive it as bitchy, often very derogatory and in general mean-spirited. Snarky characters come over as unlikable to me, and I mean by that, as someone I'd leave standing and not ever want to meet again. Life being too short to squander with such a kind of person. Now you can guess, how much I like YA novels (or chick lit for that matter) where everyone talks like a cranky old geezer (Jack Nicholson characters come to my mind there). I freaked over Kody Keplinger's novels, and rue every cent I paid for them. ;-)

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Dennis Dunjinman — Thu, 03 Nov 2011 12:53:56 -0700

[quote=Tessadragon] The It's a big deal to squash out racism by having a black kid as the best friend: No. It's best to have a best friend who can invent killer robots that are on YOUR SIDE. [/quote] What if the best friend that makes killer robots just so happens to be black? Because I actually have one of those, Leon. The funny thing is that when I made him, he fully bought into the archetype that since he was the black best friend, he would be the one sitting back at home and constructing all his gadgets out of the schematic books he found. He'd let the white hero Tony and his ethnic girlfriend Michiko (a dwarf boy and Japanese girl respectively, though they aren't an item) to deal with all the dangerous stuff that could get them hurt. His friends just call him a dirty coward for thinking that way. Ironically, he's the only one of my original characters that hasn't been plot-orphaned because I wrote a short story featuring him and not his other friends as a means to get him to break the "dirty coward" habit. Even though I've SCUBA certified him, got him to find a ghost and he nearly ran out of air, he's still pretty much someone with a lot of bravado but no stomach for potential danger.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Coffeedrinker — Thu, 03 Nov 2011 14:28:37 -0700

What enervates me even more about this whole cliché is the fact that it ALSO propagates marriage as being the sole choice of how to live.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Benihanaa — Thu, 03 Nov 2011 15:51:00 -0700

I understand why you'd think the 'loner with a best friend' thing would get annoying. I definitely try to avoid it in my stories, but it can be extremely difficult at times, since I was lucky enough to have that best friend bond. I've known my best friend since kindergarden (11 years now) and she's been loyal to me from the beginning, even after she moved out of state. My favorite character is the ones who are 'lonely' in a sense; they have a few close friendships, but nothing like that one, single best friend bond. My biggest pet peeve about characters like this is when the writer doesn't really explain that the person is a homebody who doesn't know a lot of people, but beyond the people they're meeting for the first time in the story, there's no other characters. Like, this character has literally no interaction with any people. No matter how minor a character can me, it can make a story more believable if the FMC has -some- social interaction beyond the other MCs.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Dennis Dunjinman — Thu, 03 Nov 2011 16:16:28 -0700

I question your whole discussion on sex. There are plenty of people out there who are not interested in sex. The primary reason they are not pursuing sex is because they simply aren't in the mood or have not found the right person yet. Or they have more important things to do, and figure sex can wait. It's not like these young folks have a ticking biological clock. Or, finally, they simply aren't emotionally ready for it. There are many teens who say that even though they had sex early, they probably would have waited longer in hindsight. I'd also like to point out that not everybody has lots of sex. And having that much sex may cloud people's better judgement. I may not fully understand people's obsession over it, but my general idea is that sex is something fairly significant and really is only for very particular people and situations. Any animal can hump. It takes something important for a real person to make love, so to speak. I can understand that some teenagers are open to experimentation, but for the most part I think their war stories are pretty much just stories. So I personally think that "Teenagers that don't want sex aren't really teens, and they support outdated gender values!" is somewhat extreme. There are teens who care less. And I think their stories are more interesting to read, because they may actually be adventuring and accomplishing things instead of fooling around in bed.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Coffeedrinker — Thu, 03 Nov 2011 22:31:01 -0700

I nowhere said "that teenagers who don't want sex aren't really teens", so please don't interpret me. Thanks.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Leizal — Fri, 04 Nov 2011 15:13:57 -0700

I'm really sick of reading young adult fiction where the main couple get engaged at the end. So many online stories seem to end up with the boyfriend going "I just can't imagine my life without you" and him then proposing, even though they're only eighteen. I hate it so much so that any story where the relationship isn't so irritatingly predictable jumps up in my estimations.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Princeshelby — Fri, 04 Nov 2011 16:02:16 -0700

I CAN'T STAND all the novels that try too hard to be edgy, or say they're about something really interesting then turn out to just be your typical, overdone romance. And I'm really tired of the mean girls thing. It's fine to include it as a minor part of the plot, but there are so many books about cliques and stuff out there.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Coffeedrinker — Sat, 05 Nov 2011 07:20:21 -0700

This! Or marriage outright.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Kelbian — Sat, 05 Nov 2011 20:43:32 -0700

yay for red hair! every ms i've written has a redhead. there aren't enough of them out there.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

SiLENT_masque — Sat, 05 Nov 2011 22:20:06 -0700

Oh man, I most definitely have to second this one. I have been disappointed way too many times when picking up a book and seeing that, nope. It's not a cool fantasy novel; it's just another romance. Once again, generally between supernatural creatures in a love triangle. (Now, with that said, I think I would die happy if there was actually supernatural creatures - that stayed in mostly creature form - in a love triangle. Mostly as a take that.) Ever since Twilight came out, too many authors in the YA genre have been trying to hop onto the supernatural creature x human gimmick and now it's just old. ...oh man, I think I ended up on a different cliche than I started on.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

jefflion — Sun, 06 Nov 2011 05:58:41 -0800

I don't like fake edginess. There's nothing wrong about stories that aren't edgy, or stories that incorporate some themes that some people find questionable, but most of the readers are ok with or are experienced with. And, most of all, I hate 'edgy" books that are made to show how drugs are baaad, alcohol is baad and, worst of all, sex is baaad. Now, I'm not really into alcohol or drugs (and I don't think teens should be encouraged to abuse them), and I wasn't promiscuous, but please, if youn want to show consequences, show realistic ones. Don't make anybody who gets drunk at a party once kill their bast friend in a car accident. Ok, I guess I ended up on a different cliche than I started on, too.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

herredhairlightsthewall — Mon, 07 Nov 2011 03:05:10 -0800

I shall raise my hand as an example of the nerdy girl and the popular bad boy getting together. My high school experience was this huge cliche - I was nerdy and shy, guys ignored me ... then I ditched my glasses and started wearing contacts. All of a sudden, I was getting invited to parties! Guys started confessing that they liked me! Etc. I dated the bad boy when I was 16, for over a year. Even though I lived this cliche, I have to say, I hate it too. After all, it always seemed to work out in the books and the movies ... if you were enough of a good girl, you'd change him! He'd stop selling drugs! He wouldn't cheat on you anymore! I love, love, love stories where the good girl dates the bad boy and he screws her over and she realizes that he's never going to change, and they are never going to work out, and she deserves someone who will treat her with some actual respect.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

wheadee — Mon, 07 Nov 2011 03:44:19 -0800

I like reading threads like these, makes me happy that I’m doing something right and being a bit original or different. At my high school, the smart kids were really…out there, our smartest girl was a slut, our smartest boy smoked weed, and there was a captain of the cheerleaders. Most of ours were either ugly, too thin or fat. You’d think clichés existed in real life, I was surprised to arrive at high school and realize that life wasn’t like the books and the smart kids could be really screwed up. Speaking as an outcast, I can honestly say we don’t get that noticed when we change our hair or pick out a new outfit. Unless you’re super bubbly and such, no one notices you, you’re just wallpaper. And teachers and adults can be real jerks, I haven’t seen that in YA, perhaps I should write it, there’s cussing in classrooms and inadequate teaching. It’s a real eye opener. I’m on a site called Wattpad, and the clichés there make me glad I don’t let people influence me. I HATE paranormal, am I the only person left on this planet who admires simple human love stories? There’s no way I’d go for a vampire, werewolf, angel, zombie, ghost, demon in real life, I’d scream and run and never look back. Yea, I can be shallow since I’m eighteen, but no matter how good the guy looks, I wouldn’t be all, “well, I already love you, I guess we can be together.” YA to me has lost common sense in that regard, but I guess that’s why it’s called fantasy. I hate when writers call their MCs “nerd” “players” and other labels; no one at my school was really called that stuff. Show don’t tell, if the person is smart, show us, don’t be all, I’m the nerd that stays home reading the dictionary instead of partying it up. One of my characters is number three in his senior class and he gets around, but he’s also suffering due to a personal loss, he isn’t just a flat person who just does it to do it. I try to make my characters well rounded. I have all types of parents, good, bad, there, not, I switch it up. But I do have a novel, in third person, about a group of mean girls who try to ruin another girl, in that story, they are mean to be mean, but in my defense, I have seen some girls in my school (they inspired the story) who were bitchy to be bitchy, why? Because they were pretty and they could get away with it. some clichés happen in real life, and others, don’t. Most overused? To me, YA today is follow the leader, everyone wants to write a Hunger Games type of story, I hate how one writer gets published and becomes a best seller and everyone else wants to go and jump on the band wagon. Let Stephenie Meyer and Suzanne Collins write that stuff, why must everyone sell out?

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

wheadee — Mon, 07 Nov 2011 03:47:39 -0800

Haha, I do too in my NaNoWriMo story, but the grandma, whom I can see Betty White as, isn't the MC's grandmother, but her love interest's.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

wheadee — Mon, 07 Nov 2011 03:54:59 -0800

I hope this isn't offensive, but isn't having all MCs being white cliche? I'm a black writer and I rarely see any YA about any other race. When I got to high school I was surrounded by people of different racial backgrounds and it was beautiful, but in YA it's all white, with the occasional black friend or Hispanic. In one of my books, perhaps this makes it unrealistic, but there are five mean girls, two are white, one's black, one's Japanese and the other's Indian. I also have a story about a black girl falling for an Hispanic male. YA should switch it up in my opinion.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

wheadee — Mon, 07 Nov 2011 04:00:06 -0800

As a reader I hate sad endings, I'm emotional when I read and I need a happy ending to make the story likeable. With my stories, I believe the characters have to earn it. They mess up and they have to dig deep and realize that they need and want this person or thing. Life's already tough, I don't need my books making it worse.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

wheadee — Mon, 07 Nov 2011 04:01:50 -0800

I agree, I've had my share of friends, but I don't have one that's there now, high school just ended and I'm alone. I'm antisocial, but I never had someone I knew from Kindergarten to now. In real life, I've learned that people change, and as much as I hate it, that's what needs to be written in YA or just real books.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

wheadee — Mon, 07 Nov 2011 04:06:31 -0800

Hmm, beauty is in the eye of the beholder? The boy I liked in school, was tall, skinny, pale, blonde, blue-eyed, and it seemed like only I liked him. But if you mean that the guy's so hot EVERYONE likes him, than yea, I agree. In my NaNoWriMo story, the MC gets dump by the "hot" guy and after considering ending her life due to certain things, she meets a regular looking boy, but through knowing him, she finds him to be beauitful. I think people's personalities make them attractive more than anything

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

wheadee — Mon, 07 Nov 2011 04:21:36 -0800

That last thing made me laugh! I haven't seen that before, but I find it hard to find pictures of black teens to use as covers, but I don't consider making them white because they are not white. But this was funny

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

wheadee — Mon, 07 Nov 2011 04:41:53 -0800

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

jefflion — Mon, 07 Nov 2011 09:37:09 -0800

High school cliques exist, but it's not as simple as depicted in the movies. For example, I write about kids in the drama club this year. And some people tell me "drama nerds" were seen as complete nerds and were unpopular in their school, while others say that both "cool kids" and nerdy kids were in the drama club. There were cheerleaders and other popular kids in the drama club. So it all depends. As for mean, irresponsible, bad teachers, I'd love to see more of them in YA, because it's an integral part of teen experience, I think. But for some reason they are nowhere to be found in YA, unless it's one of those "issue books" where a teacher rapes a student. And while these things happen and should be talked about, what about the "regular" irresponsible and bad teachers? What about the horrible teachers that are actually seen as ok by the school boards and those better teachers who make you think for your self get fired for some stupid thing (for example, teaching kids to think for themselves).

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

jefflion — Mon, 07 Nov 2011 09:40:14 -0800

As for character races, I agree there should be more diversity among YA characters. But I wouldn't take Simone Elekeles as a bright example of this, since her books are full of stereotypes about Mexicans and, from writing point of view, she can't write believable male characters. Basically, boys and girls in her books sound the same, so much it's sometimes difficult to tell By all means, it's great to include a Mexican main character (or black, etc.), but I'm not crazy about the Perfect Chemistry series.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

wheadee — Mon, 07 Nov 2011 19:01:10 -0800

She did her research, she even has books about Israelis. In one book she has a delinquent and she actually went to a detention center, perhaps she was just writing about what she encountered? I haven't read the last book in the Perfect Chemistry series, but I will keep lookout to see what you mean by her males sounding like females, I hate that. Yea I went to college for the first half of my senior year of high school and one of my professors was so...can't even think of a word besides inadequate and sensitive. YA should shine a light on those teachers who aren't good at teaching and are respected by the principal. I worked in my school library for three years and I saw how some teachers acted behind closed doors

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Ofoust_2011 — Mon, 07 Nov 2011 19:41:39 -0800

Ahahahahaha!! (To Cidercupcakes parenthases) so true!

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

jaswsunny — Mon, 07 Nov 2011 22:16:59 -0800

I also live in the area--and wrote a story about it. It did at first focus on the drearyness--but the character gradually grew to LOVE the Pacific Northwest:) as do I.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

jefflion — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 06:26:37 -0800

This is a very valid point. There was a whole thread dedicated to it here. Avoiding Nonwhite Cliches In short, I think this problem runs deeper than the ordinary cliches.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

jefflion — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 09:20:13 -0800

Meh. She did her research, but I still find Perfect Chemistry series to be stereotypical and repetitive. I haven't read the third one, but the third brother tries to be a good boy and his love interest is a "bad girl". She's Hispanic and I can't help noticing that while she made her white girls virginal and nice, she made a Hispanic girl different. Ok, I might be reading too much into this. I guess I was unimpressed with the writing. Half way through Rules of Attraction I couldn't keep a track on whether it was Carlos' or Kiara's chapter; they both sounded exactly the same. "Spanglish" was the only way to tell them apart. I'm all for interracial romance and I think there should be more books (YA or otherwise) depicting it, but I wasn't impressed by the Perfect Chemistry series. For interracial YA romance (black girl/ Hispanic guy), try Romiette and Julio by Sharon Draper. I haven't read it but people say it's interesting.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

wheadee — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 10:00:24 -0800

Oh I just realized that, the white female leads were virginal. I was just glad that the last girl wasn't white, because it was looking like that was all the Fuenteses preferred. And I don't really like to read novels that are similar to what I write, I have a story about a black girl and Hispanic guy, it's about the boy being a screw up or klutz and falling for the girl. I'm almost done rereading PC, when I get to RA, I will keep look out for that. I just liked PC because Alex was so likeable, the typical bad boy and the language was a first for me.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

jefflion — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 10:25:34 -0800

Your story sounds interesting. Like I said, I'm a sucker for IR romance. The first book (Perfect Chemistry) was fine, more or less. But the second one was basically the same, only with different characters. It killed it for me. Why did all of the Fuentes boys have to be in a gang (even if they weren't in the previous books)? And why did books need to be so similar to each other, only with different characters?

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

jefflion — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 10:42:06 -0800

In my school, popular guys were considered hot. (Same goes for girls). No questions asked there. Also, the rich kids. So I don't think having a character everybody's crazy about is that too much of a stretch. There ARE popular kids who are almost universally seen as attractive.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

wheadee — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 14:16:02 -0800

Yea, I see what you're saying and now it's looking like Luis, the youngest, is out for trouble as well. I haven't read a book in a long time due to lack of attention, but I do hope to read that one soon. She has another series, Leaving Paradise where there's two POVs and the boy is white but he's a tough guy as well. He reminds me a bit of Alex. Thanks, I'm writing that one in two POVs, I'm really liking stories like that, only if they're written well. The site I use has a lot of stories w/ multiple POVs, I hate when a story has one POV and then twenty chapters in we suddenly switch, that tells me that you can't show the reader how the character is feeling without switching. I don't need Tom's POV to know he feels betrayed, can't you just show him acting in rage or something? Is that a cliche, switching POVs to show how people are feeling? Or is it just laziness?

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

jefflion — Tue, 08 Nov 2011 14:33:04 -0800

I liked the alternating narratives that Elekeles used. I just don't think they used them in a right way, since both narrators sound the same. As for the POV switch, I'm not against it, but I don't like when people do it randomly. It takes time to get used to be in someone's head, so to speak, so don't put me inside just for the sake of it. Yes, we can tell Tom feels betrayed without a POV switch. PS- Maybe we should take this discussion to NaNoMail, since it's getting offtopic, and I'd love to continue!

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

ellamarie — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 10:51:59 -0800

haha, my main character is the same... if she wasn't flawed, there would be no story, let alone a plot. her biggest flaws - pigheadedness to a ludicrous degree and an equal if not greater helping of contrariness - get her into almost every situation in the story. i don't know what i'd do without them.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

ellamarie — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 10:55:52 -0800

haha, how about wise old (wo)men? are they too cliche? (read: should i try to take mine out because i though they could be like a mentor... haha)

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

ellamarie — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 11:00:06 -0800

OMG i wrote a story with a sexy guy below the poverty line! it's not this nano, but it might end up (revamped) as next years... he lived in a car though, and sometimes a motel, not a trailer. poor enough? haha

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

ellamarie — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 11:05:18 -0800

thats stream-of-conciousness writing isn't it?

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

AveryLinden — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 13:47:59 -0800

I purposely added in a clueless parent -- he'd rather focus on work than having to face his children every day. But unlike the cliches, his marriage and family suffer because of it. I also have a sort of love-triangle going on, but it's more of the MC pining over her best friend whenever he is around, and coveting the necklace he gave her. All other times she's focused on her school work and trying to beat her other best friend at everything. Her other love interest is a bad boy, but his attitude stems from years of bullying due to his birth defect.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

ellamarie — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 17:26:10 -0800

I'm going to have to explore these questions now! thanks!

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

ellamarie — Wed, 09 Nov 2011 17:42:56 -0800

[quote=chel.c.cam] ZOMG! He's so SEEEXXYYYYY!!!! I MUST HAVE THIS [/quote] heh... i have those. but normally no one else agrees with me so i don't feel so bad about it. my current crush has ears that, i'm sorry, would't look out of place on an elephant. just sayin. my idea of sexy seems to vary from other people's

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

beanza3 — Thu, 10 Nov 2011 15:25:42 -0800

I disagree... Look at some of the most famous of works... Holden Caufield was depressed from... practically beginging to end, The Great Gatsby ended with a load of characters dying, and no clear resolution; Romeo and Juliet is one of Shakspeare's best known works (Up there with Hamlet, and Macbeth, and those were tradegies too) and everyone dies in that. And personally, a happy ending makes me smile, but a sad one makes me feel. I'm upset, or angry, or vindictive... I care. THG's happy ending gave the whole book a negative feel for me, more so then the doom and gloom over the rest of the book. I'm not saying that happy ending are bad, but tragedies have a lot of merit too... If you've ever seen "Stranger then Fiction" (Movie) it's got this great meditation on what makes a decent book great. What is a hero, and what is living. Totally meta but... It's got a lot of merit.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

KatBrown — Thu, 10 Nov 2011 21:25:13 -0800

This is actually inspired by the very lengthy thread above about interracial romances except it's about homosexual romances. There are a lot of books coming out the are about homosexuality etc but for some reason the books that are not "issue novels" about gay teens have all hetero relationships. I would love to see books about... well anything... that have gay characters and it's not a central plot point, it just is. And it's not something that an author stuck in there haphazardly to raise eyebrows and make their book edgy, it's just a girl who likes girls and nobody really cares. You know what I mean? It doesn't always have to be a huge dramatic thing.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

jefflion — Fri, 11 Nov 2011 04:10:55 -0800

My thoughts exactly. Until stuff like homosexual orientation, interracial romances, etc. aren't truly accepted, they will appear in books (and TV, movies) only as "issue" subjects. For example, it's difficult to find stories where main character is gay... without it having to do anything with the story (or the main conflict). Similarly, whenever there's a black character as a protagonist, the story is always about him/her being black. Obviously, I'm talking about "mainstream" books. There are people who write the above kind of stories, but they are usually seen as "niche" book, aimed for those who belong to the described groups, and nobody else. Which is a shame, to say the least.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Reese_Roper — Fri, 11 Nov 2011 19:30:11 -0800

I live in Maine as well, and always set my stories there. It should be noted that the typical setting for these Maine cliches is the coast. Which is probably why people choose to put their story in Maine. They think that Maine means zero population, all coastline, and therefore filled with storms and fogginess. Being from the County, on the other hand, I know that there is a Northern part of Maine no one seems to ever notice which, while yes, mostly has that zero population part, has no coastline to speak of. I rarely hear in books, "The coastal town had a small population on it's own, but with all the tourists, it could easily pass for a city" or "Then we drove for an hour to get to the mall, because that was how long it took to get to the closest one." Yet just by reading them I could tell you which half of the state you were probably in.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

livreestvivre — Sat, 12 Nov 2011 09:59:38 -0800

i agree with the love triangles thing: it's totally overused. but if your story involves some cliches that are totally and completely realistic in a high school setting-go for it for example: i hate love triangles but my story involves kind of a love pentagon. in a not-so-love pentagon way. see theres a girl: whose ex boyfriend dies (who both still loved each other). two point of the pentagon. then there's the girl's best friend who we find out was in love with the ex boyfriend BUT has a boyfriend. now four points. and then there's the dead guys best friend who turns out to be gay and in love with the ex boyfriend. so really everyone loves the dead guy and it isnt technically a love triangle

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

jefflion — Sat, 12 Nov 2011 13:57:35 -0800

I think these "crazy" situations are realistic. What I hate with cliche love triangles is that they're often predictable and unrealistic. How often do you have an ordinary, plain girl chased by two incredibly handsome popular guys/ sexy mythical beings?

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

livreestvivre — Sun, 13 Nov 2011 08:47:19 -0800

yes, it just wouldn't happen in real life. books are only good if they're believable

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Alpina'sQuill — Sun, 13 Nov 2011 15:15:07 -0800

Okay, I just can't read through all three pages. xD This is a great thread though. I love to read what annoys everyone and take note of it for when I revise my novel. When I was 12, I wrote a love triangle. I've hated love triangles ever since. My story was just so freaking stupid... The girl's ex boyfriend was treating her like dirt but still loved her and then there was a nice guy that was perfect for her but got too over emotional. I learned some things about what not to do with character relationships with that story. xD I also learned that over doing goo-goo eyes really doesn't read well. I agree with all the stuff said about a girl stuck between two guys thing. Every time I see a commercial for Twighlight I want to puke all over the place. "You should love me because I have twenty-pack abs, and vampires suck! So I'm going to slaughter you." thing is just... wayyyy to melodramatic for me. And I hate fantasy and paranormal romance. I've written one fantasy story in my life, and it was a Twighlight parody. The whole story consisted of: "Bella divorced fang face, bought werewolf dude a shirt at Walmart on the way to church, and lived happily ever after. The End." People other than me have done variations of that. As for my most dislike cliches, I would have to go with 'bad guy masterminds a brilliant crime and then does something so stupid and out of character and ends up getting caught' as being way over done. I'm sorry. I love Scooby Doo, but it should stay with Scooby Doo. I'm even tired of the Hardy Boys and Nancy Drew and Trixie Belden to a certain point, because the ending to the mystery is sooo obvious... "Hey looky mom, I just caught the bad guy in the hole in the ground that I covered with leaves! Yay me." My other pet-peeve would be horse-girl fiction. ALL OF THEM ARE THE FREAKING SAME. "Poor farm girl runs the risk of loosing her horse to a rich girl, struggles to have control over her horse even though she's the best rider at her barn; goes on to win the three-day event. Is able to buy/is given the horse and lovingly strokes his nose as the sun goes down." Goodness. The Thoroughbred Series. Saddle Club. A Good Horse. Miranda and Starlight Series. Horse Mad Western. The Phantom Stallion (is the western equivalent to this cliche). Winnie the Horse Gentler. Canterwood Crest (I know she won NaNo, but that doesn't mean anything when it comes to plot). Heartland. ALL THE SAME DARN THING. I'm telling you, the only good horse books I've read are My Friend Flicka and the sequel Thunderhead, because there weren't even any competitions until Thunderhead, and it wasn't cliche at all. And Mary O'Hara wrote both books as strong lit fic, so it actually has some personality, relationship depth, and originality. Black Beauty was great, too. YA Horse Books never have depth. EVER. It drives me nuts. [quote=wheadee] I like reading threads like these, makes me happy that I’m doing something right and being a bit original or different. At my high school, the smart kids were really…out there, our smartest girl was a slut, our smartest boy smoked weed, and there was a captain of the cheerleaders. Most of ours were either ugly, too thin or fat. You’d think clichés existed in real life, I was surprised to arrive at high school and realize that life wasn’t like the books and the smart kids could be really screwed up. Speaking as an outcast, I can honestly say we don’t get that noticed when we change our hair or pick out a new outfit. Unless you’re super bubbly and such, no one notices you, you’re just wallpaper. And teachers and adults can be real jerks, I haven’t seen that in YA, perhaps I should write it, there’s cussing in classrooms and inadequate teaching. It’s a real eye opener. I’m on a site called Wattpad, and the clichés there make me glad I don’t let people influence me. I HATE paranormal, am I the only person left on this planet who admires simple human love stories? There’s no way I’d go for a vampire, werewolf, angel, zombie, ghost, demon in real life, I’d scream and run and never look back. Yea, I can be shallow since I’m eighteen, but no matter how good the guy looks, I wouldn’t be all, “well, I already love you, I guess we can be together.” YA to me has lost common sense in that regard, but I guess that’s why it’s called fantasy. I hate when writers call their MCs “nerd” “players” and other labels; no one at my school was really called that stuff. Show don’t tell, if the person is smart, show us, don’t be all, I’m the nerd that stays home reading the dictionary instead of partying it up. One of my characters is number three in his senior class and he gets around, but he’s also suffering due to a personal loss, he isn’t just a flat person who just does it to do it. I try to make my characters well rounded. I have all types of parents, good, bad, there, not, I switch it up. But I do have a novel, in third person, about a group of mean girls who try to ruin another girl, in that story, they are mean to be mean, but in my defense, I have seen some girls in my school (they inspired the story) who were bitchy to be bitchy, why? Because they were pretty and they could get away with it. some clichés happen in real life, and others, don’t. Most overused? To me, YA today is follow the leader, everyone wants to write a Hunger Games type of story, I hate how one writer gets published and becomes a best seller and everyone else wants to go and jump on the band wagon. Let Stephenie Meyer and Suzanne Collins write that stuff, why must everyone sell out? [/quote] YOU ARE NOT THE ONLY ONE! I love simple human love stories. I am guilty of calling my MC a nerd, but that's because she did homeschool and she teaches herself college-level math during her sophomore year of highschool. I'll probably edit out a lot of that when I go for the second draft. My stories actually have a lot of subliminal cliches that drive me nuuuuts. I plan on removing them.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

aaliona — Sun, 13 Nov 2011 19:39:37 -0800

I agree. When the local Barnes and Noble created a Teen Paranormal Section, it pissed me off. Then I realized it meant less sifting through vampire books. I have felt so guilty since the moment I looked back on my plot. I have a love square. *flinches at all of the papers and tomatos being thrown* I'm trying to make up for it by having as few "typical" love triangle moments as possible. The first guy isn't a jackwad, the MC isn't weak and helpless, (none of them sparkle,) the MC isn't constantly worried about how she looks compared to other girls, and the story is in third person. I feel like the square is maybe a little okay because the plot is kind of a giant dating game that I still have a hard time explaining. My fav cliche: the quiet guy (usually brunette) who turns out to be a total sweetheart, but I'm a sucker for these guys anyway. :)

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

aaliona — Sun, 13 Nov 2011 19:46:40 -0800

Actually, I kind of disagree with that. My school's cheer squad doesn't technically have a coach. They have an adult in charge who's at less than half of their practices, but since they don't have a certified adult to supervise, they can't compete or do stunts. I do agree with the outcast part. None of the popular/bitchy girls want to be football cheerleaders because it means being out in the cold. The bitches go out or cheer for basketball, and the other girls go into hiding to cheer for wrestling.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

aaliona — Sun, 13 Nov 2011 19:50:25 -0800

Yes, post on here when it's available. We'll all come flocking. :)

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

wheadee — Sun, 13 Nov 2011 21:32:07 -0800

I have no problem with cliches, because every story is going to have one. I have a problem when writers just write the cliche and give it no flavor. When I'm on my writing site and I see that people have written in their summaries that their stories involve "the player" and "the nerd" but with a "twist" I don't bother reading. My biggest thing is that if you're going to write a story like that, don't make it obvious, let me read it and see that he's a lothario and she's a bookworm, I HATE labels. If you're going to change your novel, make sure it's because you want, not due to any pressures. Sometimes I wonder if my work would make other people frown, but then I'm like, if I like it and love it, then that's all that matters. It's not so bad having the MC reference to themselves as a nerd perhaps jokingly or once or twice, but to have them define themselves that way, it would probably be cliche. I wrote a triangle story too, I was like...thirteen when I wrote this trilogy I have. But it's not really a triangle, as much as it was about abuse and learning how to love and who to love. I wouldn't change the triangle part, because it's essential to the overall story. As long as your work isn't OVERLY cliche, it should be fine, like I said, no one has an original idea, a lot of stuff has been done before, don't feel bad or drive yourself nuts. Ha, one of my works is about a popular girl who makes a bet about changing a boy from the chess club into a popular guy, that's cliche, but I'm not changing it b/c people read it as more than just the average cliche, I've added spice and character, just try that ; )

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

panicxpandemic — Sun, 13 Nov 2011 23:22:21 -0800

My NaNo novel is about a tribe of Therians (shape-shifters) in the desert in Egypt. I'm pretty excited about it but also having slight trouble... Fighting desperately against YA cliches, of which there are many. It think the most cliche thing is that my MC doesn't think much of herself, though, I think that that is realistic, though overused. She's 17, and at least from my experience there aren't many 17 year olds that are completely at peace with their body image. Her main issue with herself is her height (which is actually taken from myself, though she's self conscious because she's really short and for me, it's because I'm really tall.) There's nothing about high school, and I don't plan on any mention of true love, though there IS a romantic interest... Since you guys are all experts on the cliche bandwagon, I'd really like your opinion.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

jefflion — Mon, 14 Nov 2011 07:40:24 -0800

I love your setting! It's different enough and I'd be interested in your story even though I'm not into paranormal (this counts as paranormal, right?) There's nothign wrong about your MC not being satisfied with the way she looks. I'm very short (about 5'2") and while I never obsessed over it, I was somewhat self-conscious. It's important not to make her "whine" about her height, only for other characters to reassure her "she's gorgeous". Or for her to whine how plain and ugly she is, and have hot guys throwing themselves at her. THAT'S annoying. Actually, people usually start noticing bad things about themselves not on their own, but because others tease them for it. For example, I was teased for wearing glasses or for being too curvy- and those are the things I'd never pay attention to without others pointing at it. So if your character is self-conscious about being short, make others point at it, too. They don't have to tease her, but let them notice. It's more realistic than the "oooh, poor me, I'm short/pale/clumsy", and then other characters go at great lengths reassuring her she's gorgeous.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

panicxpandemic — Tue, 15 Nov 2011 02:58:14 -0800

(That's funny, since Kylie is also 5'2" ;D) Yes, it does indeed classify as paranormal. I'm really glad that you think it sounds interesting!! This was definitely excellent advice! I have a few very tall, smart-ass characters, and I'm honestly surprised that no one's openly teased her about her height yet-- I never thought to include that. Definitely going to now, though! Thanks :D

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Beacon80 — Tue, 15 Nov 2011 09:50:53 -0800

My main character's best friend ended up being a lesbian (I even started the "Avoiding Gay Cliches" thread, just for her). It's biggest impact on the story is that she's only mostly forgiven the third girl in their trio for accidentally outing her a few years ago, and that she occasionally makes jokes about how she has a crush on the straight MC. She doesn't have a girlfriend, but that's mostly for the same reasons she wouldn't have a boyfriend if she was straight, with the added complication of the odds of her finding another lesbian her age in a small town being rather low.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Beacon80 — Tue, 15 Nov 2011 09:55:40 -0800

Keep in mind that cliches are not necessarily bad. There's a reason the thread title says "The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly." Body image is a big deal for teenagers, so it's only natural that a large portion of YA books are going to deal with it in some form.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

jefflion — Tue, 15 Nov 2011 13:07:13 -0800

Well, I wouldn't make them mentally abuse her or bully her because of it, but pointing out at it or a little teasing would be interesting. Depending on your plot, you might even include a scene in which she tells them to stop with it and/or learns to accept her body. But only if it doesn't contradicts your plot.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

panicxpandemic — Tue, 15 Nov 2011 22:06:57 -0800

I shall :) Ahh, character development, how I love thee.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

panicxpandemic — Tue, 15 Nov 2011 22:07:42 -0800

Indeed.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Skarlette.Knox — Fri, 18 Nov 2011 00:45:34 -0800

I actually like love triangles, but I completely agree that they get so overbearing when they're executed like all the cliched stories. One of my NaNo novels last year actually kinda had...a love square (1 girl, 3 guys), but before anyone pelts me with rotten tomatoes, let me explain! None of the characters get together. AT ALL. None confess anything even close to love or even "fall" for each other. There's obvious interest, and though you kinda want the FMC to maybe end up with one of the guys, in the end she only sees them all as friends/school partners and nothing more. Plus, two of the guys purposefully try to win her over for their own ulterior motives. The third really just wanted a friend. Actually, most of my novels don't have anyone getting with anyone. They're just way too young, imo. Plus, I'm more into action/adventure/thriller/horror kinda stuff, and since I know nothing about love (I'm only a teen), I tend to leave that subject for others to try to tackle. But as for cliches I'm so over... 1) UGH. FMCs who get so obsessed over the dark, mysterious, brooding sexy sohotican'tstayaway badboy and fall in lurve with them after the first week of school. And for some unknown reason the badboy is drawn to the FMC (apparently she's just so beautiful, though she just can't believe she is). 2) Parents are dumb, stupid, mindless beings that can't possibly understand how it is to be a teenager. 'Cause yeah, they totally skipped adolescence and went from 12 to 27 overnight. >_> 3) FMCs are white, pale creatures with ivory-skin that never tans though they've been living in Arizona all their lives. 4) That sex is okay a long as you know that you know you're ready, even though you're only 16. (Yeah, 'cause 16 year-olds just know everything when it comes to them personally. And never mind the consequences of your decisions--they all disappear when you know that you know that you know.) 5) Christians are either weak people-pleasers who are in lala-land when it comes to the modern world or overbearing, cruel, harsh and condemning people who really are hypocritical monsters with dark, dark secrets ('cause no one else besides Christians are ever hypocritical). 6) Overly sarcastic & "witty" FMCs who are great, strong female leads all because they can kick any guys butt in a fight and have a tongue that's more fiery than their temper. < GAH, just die!!!! *headwalls* (And there's really no reason for them to be so...snarky. "It's just their personality." Ugh, I'm so over it!) Anythewhoo, yes, there are some cliches that I don't mind so much (and am guilty of), and some that just...grr.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Turdlock — Fri, 18 Nov 2011 04:49:28 -0800

It really makes me mad that there are so many vampire YA stories out there now (and some of them are just ridiculous). I've been wanting to write a vampire/werewolf fiction since I was a little kid (and I've had this plot in my head for about six years) and now if I do people will think it's cliche and won't take it seriously? It makes me so angry! My story takes place in a made-up town in west NC which is super close to my hometown in TN. :D Dreary settings would make me (and my MC) depressed.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Turdlock — Fri, 18 Nov 2011 05:24:19 -0800

I agree with this^. Sad endings might stick with me, but I'll always look back on the book in a negative view. I stay with the characters and love them and to see them grow but in the long run get nothing really happy out of it just makes me sad. I read books to show me a wonderful story and to take me away. Not to depress me. I know some people like sad endings for their realistic qualities, but it doesn't mean you can't have a realistic happy ending. :)

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Turdlock — Fri, 18 Nov 2011 05:38:10 -0800

In high school I was a quiet, shy, loner type, but I had a certain group of friends that's I'd had since middle school. I had two best friends. One was a popular, talkative girl, who is my cousin and still one of my best friends today. She is amazing, but a little self-centered and didn't always take other's feelings into account, though she tried. The other best friend was a horrible friend I just couldn't get up the courage to tell off, because I had known her since the first day of school. Our whole group was relieved when she moved in junior year. Basically the point I'm making is I agree with you. If they do have a wonderful best friend they can't be THAT wonderful. Girls can be evil and while good friends don't fight a lot they do still have some rough patches. I might have never had the guts to stand up to mine, but it wasn't all puppies and lollipops (sixth grade with my random backbone caused a fight every other day with the bad friend and my anti-social behavior really caused a rift in eighth grade with my cousin). Good friends can be good friends without being entirely lovely and considerate. Note: I love my BFF/cousin and I wouldn't want to live my life without her, warts and all. :D

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Turdlock — Fri, 18 Nov 2011 05:52:01 -0800

My MC isn't angsty and it's freaking me out. I'm freakishly worried people won't like her because she doesn't really have anything to be sad about. XD Though she does have a weird obsession with respect. :)

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

aaalllyyysssaaaaa — Tue, 22 Nov 2011 05:57:06 -0800

I Agree with all these!

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

aaalllyyysssaaaaa — Tue, 22 Nov 2011 06:09:48 -0800

Guys, I think I'm screwed - I have the clicheest love triangle that ever was. FMC and a guy fall madly in love, the guy gets killed by time travellers, the girl gets kidnapped by time travelers and brought to the future, she falls madly in love with ANOTHER guy, she finds out that she and the first guy would have gotten married if he wasn't killed, then she gets ahold of a time machine and goes back in time and she realizes she has the oppertunity to save guy #1 and she has to choose. Idk if it's horribly bad or not... Both relationships come about naturally, I think... They both grow from long friendships and shared experiences.... And it's not really the focus of the story:.. She's more choosing between two LIVES than two guys. Idk guys, too cliche?

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

WriteOnMyGuitar — Thu, 24 Nov 2011 18:53:55 -0800

Hee, I can't help but say that my MC starts liking one of his band members despite dating another girl already (for a year and a half). It's not the main part of my novel, but later on it affects how vulnerable the band is to lowering their standards. I'm considering also just making it a threesome since they're all of age, LOL.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

ImmaSammich — Fri, 25 Nov 2011 02:08:18 -0800

I love time traveling plots, especially when you get into tragedy of the lost timeline thing so I think this sounds super cool. Also, such drama potential. But if this is all happening in one book, you're going to have to really develop each relationship, which it sounds like you intend to do. You've also said you're not making it about the guys, which is what gets on a lot of people's nerves. Plus I think you've staved off the worst thing about love triangles. Since her first love is dead your FMC is doing the healthy thing by moving on your middle corner isn't going to seem like a selfish, whiner. Really, I think the key to a successful love triangle is just not making the middle corner a terrible, selfish person. Also not making the outer corners pushovers. Which your plot enables you to avoid wonderfully.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

chessapphire — Fri, 25 Nov 2011 03:51:01 -0800

Yay Maine! lol I'm from there so a lot of my stories have some connection to the area . . . easier to write somewhere you know :-)

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Kaserl — Fri, 25 Nov 2011 10:04:30 -0800

That sounds like what I would do if two random guys started liking me. Pretty much exactly what I would do. Write that! I definitely want to read that.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Kaserl — Fri, 25 Nov 2011 10:09:04 -0800

Like they always burn? I know someone like that..... Never had a tan, because their skin skipped ahead to a burn.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

HecticZ — Fri, 25 Nov 2011 20:36:29 -0800

I was going to actually write a novel where the MMC was stuck between two girls, one (the one he was leaning towards) wasn't hot or attractive, it was that he felt so connected with her. The other was the adventurous sort of girl. Both of them I don't think were cliche at all and even the triangle itself wasn't love triangly at all.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Joselyn — Sat, 26 Nov 2011 09:31:06 -0800

Yeah, i actually like how B&N has the separate sections now, because I can just go straight to Teen Fantasy/Adventure, without wondering if I'm picking up Paranormal Romance. Sometimes it's hard to tell those apart just by looking at them, or even reading the summary. But I know pretty much anything in the F/A section will be to my liking - either no romance, or very little romance that aids the actual plot, as opposed to the romance being the plot.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Joselyn — Sat, 26 Nov 2011 09:33:06 -0800

LOL! Yeah, even if that is what it's about, you'd think they could avoid the cliche of describing it that way :P

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Joselyn — Sat, 26 Nov 2011 10:28:44 -0800

Definitely part of the reason this happens so much is because sometimes, for the story, you need the parents out of the way, but there are better ways to do it than just mkaing them clueless, I agree. Also, I have really enjoyed novels that endeavored to keep the parents involved, in spite of whatever craziness the kids are getting into. I'm not a Twilight fan at all, but one of the few things I did like about those books was her dad.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

abra kazam — Sat, 26 Nov 2011 10:52:11 -0800

I hate writing for females in YA, not because I don't like girls, but because they're so hard to make ~exciting~ without becoming that whiny ~speshul snowflake~. Cliches seem to be everywhere. They're either too whiny because they're different, hopelessly trying to fit in, or defying stereotypes in a particularly grating fashion. :I One cliche I'm trying to tackle though is parents though. Even though parents always seem to be pushed to the side, irresponsible, or dead, I'd like to hope there were some realistic parent-child relationships out there. That, and children that do put a little bit of respect into what their folks have to say. My FMC has parents that expect a lot out of her, but she listens to them because she doesn't want to let them down. Rebellious princesses can really drive me up the wall with their 'don't want to be royal, whatever dad!' attitudes. :c

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Joselyn — Sat, 26 Nov 2011 12:21:31 -0800

I agree those are all great, but I think winter jasmine was specifically talking about YA lit, and none of those examples were written specifically for young readers, with maybe Catcher in the Rye as the exception.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Joselyn — Sat, 26 Nov 2011 12:24:08 -0800

Ooh, that sounds really interesting.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Joselyn — Sat, 26 Nov 2011 12:27:13 -0800

Ooh I was thinking of buying that one. I'll definitely have to get it.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Joselyn — Sat, 26 Nov 2011 12:32:40 -0800

Totally agree. I just read a YA book called Witchlanders, and it had no romance whatsoever. I thought I might not like it because of that, because I'm so used to there being romance in every YA I read these days, but I loved it. It had a good friendship develop, and that was enough for me. I currently have a romance brewing in my novel, but I'm thinking of scaling it back and it just being about friendship.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

JGHarris — Sat, 26 Nov 2011 15:12:06 -0800

I've been writing a love triangle in my story because I never find them realistic and I thought I'd challenge myself by giving it a shot, plus the concept of the situation is horribly cliche - it's the best friend vs. bad boy type thing. The more I think about it, the more it seems like I was trying to punish myself. What I've been TRYING to do is build the relationships first into solid places where there's a lot of love that has nothing to do with getting in anyone's pants, and then working from there. Also as a direct result of their circumstances in my dystopian future, one guy has severe facial scarring and my FMC has several symptoms of malnourishment, so there's no 'Girl-Doesn't-Know-She's-Gorgeous-Being-Chased-By-Gorgeous-Guys'. And there's a lot of PTSD, take that as you will. And on that note, you know what just grinds my gears? The hot love interest. Maybe it's because I'm older now and have realized that looks aren't 100% of what makes a person attractive, but when I read the description of how beauuuuuuutiful the Love Interest is... I feel more and more like there should just be a footnote that says 'WARNING: Do Not Expect Proper Emotional Relationship Development.' Not every time, just... most times.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

MariAdkins — Sat, 26 Nov 2011 15:18:57 -0800

My YA has a handful of bisexual threesomes and same sex twosomes. One of the characters is only fifteen. But the sex is probably tertiary to the plot, while the relationships are secondary.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

MariAdkins — Sat, 26 Nov 2011 15:19:36 -0800

I agree. 100%

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

KatBrown — Sat, 26 Nov 2011 16:20:32 -0800

I want to know why, in Best Friend vs. New Guy love triangles, the New Guy always wins. I mean, I would rather be with the guy that i know better than I know myself then pledge my life to some guy I met two chapters ago. I dunno, I'm reading Crossed right now and all I can think is how sad I am for Xander that he's lost his best friend and the girl he loves. I was also totally team Gale in Hunger Games.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

jefflion — Sat, 26 Nov 2011 17:11:17 -0800

I agree. I hate when characters don't have a character beyond being hot. I have a hot guy as a love interest in my story. However, that relationship doesn't go well because the girl finally realizes she's not compatible with the guy and that this guy has nothing to offer except his good looks. And that's just not enough.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

jefflion — Sat, 26 Nov 2011 17:11:45 -0800

Hmmm... I don't know. It seems there are many stories where the best friend wins.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

KatBrown — Sat, 26 Nov 2011 18:15:11 -0800

Point me towards them please! Maybe I'm just reading the wrong books.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

MariAdkins — Sat, 26 Nov 2011 19:14:24 -0800

oh don't get me started on the whole gale debacle.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

XVisiEX — Sat, 26 Nov 2011 20:12:17 -0800

[quote=Skarlette.Knox] I actually like love triangles, but I completely agree that they get so overbearing when they're executed like all the cliched stories. One of my NaNo novels last year actually kinda had...a love square (1 girl, 3 guys), but before anyone pelts me with rotten tomatoes, let me explain! None of the characters get together. AT ALL. None confess anything even close to love or even "fall" for each other. There's obvious interest, and though you kinda want the FMC to maybe end up with one of the guys, in the end she only sees them all as friends/school partners and nothing more. Plus, two of the guys purposefully try to win her over for their own ulterior motives. The third really just wanted a friend. Actually, most of my novels don't have anyone getting with anyone. They're just way too young, imo. Plus, I'm more into action/adventure/thriller/horror kinda stuff, and since I know nothing about love (I'm only a teen), I tend to leave that subject for others to try to tackle. But as for cliches I'm so over... 1) UGH. FMCs who get so obsessed over the dark, mysterious, brooding sexy sohotican'tstayaway badboy and fall in lurve with them after the first week of school. And for some unknown reason the badboy is drawn to the FMC (apparently she's just so beautiful, though she just can't believe she is). 2) Parents are dumb, stupid, mindless beings that can't possibly understand how it is to be a teenager. 'Cause yeah, they totally skipped adolescence and went from 12 to 27 overnight. >_> 3) FMCs are white, pale creatures with ivory-skin that never tans though they've been living in Arizona all their lives. 4) That sex is okay a long as you know that you know you're ready, even though you're only 16. (Yeah, 'cause 16 year-olds just know everything when it comes to them personally. And never mind the consequences of your decisions--they all disappear when you know that you know that you know.) 5) Christians are either weak people-pleasers who are in lala-land when it comes to the modern world or overbearing, cruel, harsh and condemning people who really are hypocritical monsters with dark, dark secrets ('cause no one else besides Christians are ever hypocritical). 6) Overly sarcastic & "witty" FMCs who are great, strong female leads all because they can kick any guys butt in a fight and have a tongue that's more fiery than their temper. < GAH, just die!!!! *headwalls* (And there's really no reason for them to be so...snarky. "It's just their personality." Ugh, I'm so over it!) Anythewhoo, yes, there are some cliches that I don't mind so much (and am guilty of), and some that just...grr. [/quote] ^^^^ I would so like this post. ESPECIALLY the christian part. Cause you know...every Christian has to be some skirt down to their ankles crucifix wearing bible thumping b word from hell. who completely goes against everything they are supposed to stand for. and to counter act the "frigid virgin" stereotype. As if every girl who is a VIRGIN must have something seriously wrong with her and she just needs to get laid to be normal. Like someone else said, some of us just chose to wait for marriage and others do not. Why is it okay to shove down your views on sex "I WAS IN LOVE! I WAS READY! SO I WAS RIGHT" but the minutes a character says "I am waiting for marriage" someone screams "OMG THE AUTHOR IS BEING SO PREACHY!!!" Yeah, cause you weren't shoving your opinion down my throat two seconds ago.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

jefflion — Sat, 26 Nov 2011 20:31:58 -0800

Eh. That's the problem; I can't remember any. But I do remember the "cliche" of the best friend winning the girl.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Artimisia — Mon, 28 Nov 2011 09:45:01 -0800

YES! I am so tired of the mandatory romantic plotline, as well as the tendency (who mentioned it?) to pair everybody up at the end of the book. There is no romance involved in my Nanowrimo novel, and only a couple of crushes in the book (non-nanowrimo) that precedes it. So many other things to write about, folks!

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Artimisia — Mon, 28 Nov 2011 10:11:37 -0800

Somebody mention a "girl in drag" peeve ... can you elaborate, please? I've got a girl in drag who's a major plot element in my story, and I'd love to NOT fall into any most-hated cliches! (She goes into drag for the same reason as Yentl -- can't get the education she wants otherwise.)

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Hanka — Mon, 28 Nov 2011 12:08:26 -0800

The things I really hate to read are ... 1) Everyone's beautiful(I always thought that there was something else like .... a CHARACTER?) 2) Friends always have something to say and get along sooo well

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

MariAdkins — Mon, 28 Nov 2011 13:33:02 -0800

sometimes i'd rather develop characters and worldbuild LOL

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

MariAdkins — Mon, 28 Nov 2011 13:38:31 -0800

thank you for this.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Skarlette.Knox — Mon, 28 Nov 2011 14:24:33 -0800

LOVE this. Yes yes YES! Ditto on the virgin thing, and the preachiness. It's like it's okay for authors to shove their preachiness in our face because it's pro sex etc., and it's totally cool and "edgy". But get anyone who merely disagrees and has different views (as we ALL do), then we're being condemning and "preachy" and offensive. ...yeah, like parents totally don't take offense at their pre-teen daughter thinking somethings wrong with them 'cause their a virgin.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Her Grace of Serenity — Mon, 28 Nov 2011 20:12:16 -0800

Being a young adult myself (though on the older end) I have to say I'm pretty tired of so many young adult novels having so much of the focus being on romance; just because we're all discovering our sexuality doesn't mean that sex is all we think about. Here's some issues that affect the lives of many young adults I know but that I've never/rarely seen novels about: 1) The special problems of having a mental illness as a teen. I've seen a few that deal realistically with depression, but how about OCD? Anxiety disorders? Bipolar disorders? Schizophrenia? PTSD? Oh, yeah, and it'd be nice if the characters with the mental illnesses weren't total fuck-ups. Sick people come from families with money and supportive parents, too, and they have other interests besides sitting at home, writing depressing diaries, and slitting their wrists. 2) Political issues. What's more relevant to a young adult than whether the man or woman elected next year will get rid of their health care benefits and birth control options, or plunge the country into a war for which they'll be drafted? Political action is a huge part of the lives of many of my friends, but does it ever get a mention in YA novels? 3) ACADEMICS. We spend six hours out of every day at school. Not every teacher is an inadequate time waster, and not everyone finds school boring. I personally came to many important realizations about the world around me and myself through reading things like The Great Gatsby, the Merchant of Venice, and Siddhartha. Not to mention debating on the dropping of the atomic bomb. We're not at school to have a boyfriend/girlfriend, and it'd be nice to see that. I could go on, but you get the idea.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

KatBrown — Mon, 28 Nov 2011 22:51:58 -0800

I didn't see that in context so I don't know for sure but I think that it's refering to girls that disguise themselves as men (ala Twelfth Night) to _____________. I wouldn't really call it a cliche though, more of an easy vehicle for exploring gender rolls in literature. Considering Viola is one of my all time favorite literary characters, I tend to love stories like this.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Artimisia — Tue, 29 Nov 2011 06:56:23 -0800

Thank you! I'll keep on with character as is then, unless somebody else complains.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Coffeedrinker — Sat, 03 Dec 2011 07:52:17 -0800

Chuckling. I'm guilty of a love triangle - only the girl and the boys will end up in a love triad. Such problems are so easy to solve ;-)

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Coffeedrinker — Sat, 03 Dec 2011 07:56:02 -0800

I do wonder. Body image was not even worth a second thought to me throughout school time and there were but few for whom that was so. And they really had a reason for that. I'd really love to for once read about a self-assured, mature 16 or 17 y/o - where have they all gone?

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Coffeedrinker — Sat, 03 Dec 2011 08:13:02 -0800

Yep, I agree with 2 and 3, very much so. I don't know about 1, but more because I wouldn't think that having a mental illness creates problems specific to teens which are so majorly different from when that person is a child or an adult. As to romance YA novels, I've read myself - on purpose and because mine also deals with sort of a romance - through a couple dozen of those and am largely dissatisfied. Not only that these books are almost indistinguishable from the general romance formula of adult romances (just different MC ages), they are most times horribly cliched in how relationships come about and work, and they usually preach with a very heavy 2 by 4. So while I agree that there are way too many romance YA novels of a certain type, I at the same time say there are absolutely not enough of another kind.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Princeshelby — Sat, 03 Dec 2011 22:56:11 -0800

Mainly, when you can tell all too well that an adult wrote it solely based off of stereotypes, then turn the whole story into an obvious allegory about not following those stereotpyes. For example, I once read what could have been an excellent book, but almost every chapter had some sentence like "Most girls do this and this, but I don't, which is how I found the clue for solving the mystery," or, "That's why being yourself is good." The author actually went out of their way, even writing altogether bad sentence, all to emphasize a largely cliche or unneeded plot line for a certain age. Almost all books written for teens now are like that, it seems, which is why I still buy all my books from the kids section (and I'm proud of the fact!).

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

livreestvivre — Sun, 04 Dec 2011 13:47:32 -0800

and PLEASE no teams... it cheapens the wonderfulness of the hunger games into a twilight-esque piece of crap

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Enna-Isilee — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 18:22:54 -0800

Okay. I see the whole point about this not-pale thing, but I think that writing your characters as dark skinned simply for the reason that you want to avoid pale skin is just as bad. And, in my case, my characters sort of live underground. So they don't get any sun. So they're pretty pale. Most of them. And I do have different ethnicities in my novel. I have a black guy, a Japanese woman, and a half-Irish girl. So I think I'm good.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Enna-Isilee — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 18:32:41 -0800

I have a few sort-of cliches that (I think) are made less cliche in my novel. I hop. Like, for example, the romance with a bad boy. Only the difference is, she's not your typical Mary Sue Bella Swan "Oh, I'm so plain and good" girl. She's actually sort of a bad-a. So I think it's a little more realistic. The pale skin one mentioned earlier. But my characters live underground. So except for the black guy, I can't really get around that one. The leather-jacket wearing, motorcycle-riding bad boy. I don't have an excuse for this one. I just like this cliche. Sadly, I've never met a sexy leather-jacket wearing motorcycle riding bad boy. But I would love to. The interesting thing about this character is that he got the jacket from his decidedly not bad-boy, rather nerdy older brother. Again, I really don't have any excuses for this one. I just like it.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Enna-Isilee — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 18:33:17 -0800

*hope. I hope. I do not hop.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

EarthquakeWeather — Wed, 25 Jan 2012 19:03:46 -0800

Spot on. Sadder but wiser is a fine ending - or it should be - for YA. Because teens are GOING to be sadder and wiser as soon as adulthood kicks them around a bit. Why not learn some of those lessons early. Fake happy endings depress me too. Sad endings, where something is destroyed but wisdom, maybe is gained, can be very powerful.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Rubyfruit — Wed, 08 Feb 2012 18:04:33 -0800

Cliches I absolutely dig: Characters learning to trust after being burnt, one character falling for the Boy/Girl Next Door with secrets of their own, the occasional supernatural romance, the tight bonds of friendship, characters falling in love with their best friends, unrequited love where the one who has the unrequited love finds someone else (probably at a party or something, probably after slamming back a few Questionably Legally Obtained drinks). Female characters who aren't virgins (Sarah Dessen did it in This Lullaby, which is why I kind of like this), or if they are virgins, they aren't freakin' clueless. Characters who learn to have a little fun after having spent their time being the Little Adults. Cliches I'm lukewarm about: Love Triangles. I don't hate them but I'm burnt out on them. Bad-boy anti-heroes. See above: I don't hate this but I'm kind of burnt out. Cliches I absolutely can't stand: Clueless Virgins, especially in a story that's meant to take place in the modern day. Especially if said Clueless Virgin is also a girl. Stories where The Issue overpowers the characters and the plot. When this happens, reading it feels like one has been hit about the head and shoulders with a tire iron. I could probably write more about when The Issue and The Lesson/Moral of the Story overshadows the plot, the characters, and really anything else, but I'll keep it brief by saying what I just said--I hate when a story talks down to its readers. So much.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Rubyfruit — Wed, 08 Feb 2012 19:55:14 -0800

Related to the frigid virgin is the Clueless Virgin. I can handle a virgin who does so by choice for any reason. I can't stand that virgin = totally and completely clueless about sex. Seeing a virgin who's STUPID bothers me a lot, especially if they're a girl.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Rubyfruit — Wed, 08 Feb 2012 20:24:17 -0800

Augh. Then again, I have this same issue with any story, for any age group, that tackles, or tries to tackle, any Serious Hard-Hitting Issue of the Day. It's like...if you took out the Hard-Hitting Issue, there'd be no story because the issue ate the characters, ate the plot, ate anything that would make it a compelling story on its own.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Rubyfruit — Thu, 09 Feb 2012 05:54:29 -0800

Also...can we have one fat character who doesn't lose weight to find their happy ending? Just one? It always bothered me even when I was of the "appropriate" age to read YA (what with me being at the ripe old age of 25). And this one was always female, too. The thing is, I also want to write this without it turning into the soapboxiest soapbox that ever soapboxed.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

dragonfirehurts — Wed, 15 Feb 2012 12:56:18 -0800

It pains me to say this, but... Dragons. If you're talking things that shouldn't pop up so much, dragons are a big one. I'm a YA fantasy reader/writer, and I love dragons, so it takes a lot for me to say this. They're just too common now. You've got to be abnormal to make a hit, so why choose dragons as the big scary beasts? Or the big friendly beasts, for that matter. Also, in the same way, elves. And goblins. And wizards, witches, unicorns, demons, griffins (or gryphons), kraken or sea serpents, phoenixes, magicians, sorcerers, and magic books. There are too many magic books. If you want to write an original fantasy story, don't include a tavern. And under no circumstances should you include a guy sitting in the corner of that tavern with a hood over his head! Dystopias should be avoided now that they've grown popular, really. Warrior maidens too. There are just too many. It's crazy. Talking animals, probably. As well as animal narrators. There are just so many books out there narrated by dogs and cats... Pirates have been avoided enough that they can probably return. As can superheroes. Maybe. Clowns should definitely make a comeback. For fantasy, basically if its included in Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter, throw it out.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Dennis Dunjinman — Wed, 15 Feb 2012 14:40:50 -0800

"I'm sorry, Mr. Fenton. I was into ghosts, but they're so mainstream now. They're like cellphones!" - That's from the first episode of Danny Phantom, circa 2003. But the speaker goes on to spend most of her time fighting ghosts anyway. I understand there's a glut of children's fantasy and young adult dystopia, after all, it sells. But it seems that if you limit yourself to whatever hasn't been done, you limit the gene pool. It's not about the ingredients, it's the recipe. I find a number of great books with pirates and superheroes and complete unlikeliness in. My current favorite is a superhero novel (well, sci-fi-fantasy-kitchen-sink: superhero focus). Thing is, too many people think "Well, this was successful. If I follow that formula, I'll get equal amounts of success". What they don't realize is people get bored with the same recipe and sometimes would like a twist. Brownies are too plain. Nuts? Overused. M&Ms? Colorful, but still too common. Shredded carrot and horseradish? Spicy and unexpected! But how does it taste and is the texture any good? I'd also like to say to stop comparing one work to another and try to accept the work for what it is. The part of me that does the former often rages with bile, the part of me that does the latter simply finds a bad work insipid without the bile. And no matter how the work is, I prefer the one with less bile.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

beanza3 — Sun, 19 Feb 2012 11:13:50 -0800

Lots of metaphors there! :D Just popped in to say, brilliant post! If there was a like button... :D

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

firelight_cinderbrick — Sun, 04 Mar 2012 01:50:13 -0800

Yeah, I stay away from books with blurbs like that.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

firelight_cinderbrick — Sun, 04 Mar 2012 02:00:50 -0800

I'm a nerd. I think most hot guys are all jerks. Let them have their sluts and be popular. The weak-ordinary girl and the hot guy probably wouldn't get along in the first place. I suspect that relationship to last for a month tops a few minutes at the least. Also, the popular girls don't mind me. I'm a wallflower and I don't get in their way. Love at first sight makes me gag by the way. Right, when was the last time you picked out your future friend or someone you'd have a good relationship with from a crowd and were actually right? These cliches, I despise.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

firelight_cinderbrick — Sun, 04 Mar 2012 02:09:44 -0800

Off topic: I wear glasses and look so much better with contacts too. Somehow, my eyes getting enlarged by my glasses makes me look way different and somehow very pretty. And I thought I was the only one. Though I will keep my glasses, the guys at my school would never look at me the same way if I didn't and they are all the jerks that I'd never get together with. I just make sure that they don't catch me without them so I can keep being that wallflower girl who gives snarky and witty comments all the time and calls everyone 'kid' and is never noticed.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

firelight_cinderbrick — Sun, 04 Mar 2012 02:15:13 -0800

[quote=Loki Mischief-Maker] And can we please, please have a YA urban fantasy without a romantic subplot? Somehow, some way? Please? Heck, even a subplot about maintaining an established romance rather than starting one would be welcome. [/quote] I'm working on that. I don't like how some authors handle romantic subplots in that genre cheesily. It makes me gag so hard. I focus more on strong bonds on friendship and trust. Besides my female MCs would probably be able to beat up most of the guys they meet anyway. And my male MC has goals and doesn't stop till he achieves them and he is not interested in both of my female MCs.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

firelight_cinderbrick — Sun, 04 Mar 2012 02:27:17 -0800

That would be hilarious. You can make it some sort of a parody or whatever. If you do decide to, I'll want to read it :D

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

firelight_cinderbrick — Sun, 04 Mar 2012 02:32:41 -0800

I'm avoiding this too. Mine has tan skin though. I think there are way too many white leads out there. Also it would be cool to have an MC whose skin is slightly yellowish(what my skin gets like sometimes and pretty much a lot of people from my class, I'm Asian).

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

bookmonster77 — Fri, 09 Mar 2012 19:06:24 -0800

Yes! I love this comment, because I lived in Maine for 13 years. And everyone who's not from there assumes that everyone in Maine fishes and eats lobster. We lived in Aroostook County, where the big crop was potatoes. And no, they don't all come from Idaho! Yeah, I just hate stupid, lazy people. :)

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Carramae — Sat, 10 Mar 2012 12:51:44 -0800

Bwahaha so funny how people write about Maine. Probably it was Stephen King that put Maine on the map, which is probably why half the people I know assume that I live in the middle of the woods where my only friends are moose. But I can understand the appeal, since it's right at the coast and is the most northern point of the US. And there are some areas like Monhegan Island, where the woods are filled with fairy houses! Definately a good setting for ABC Family's Once Upon A Time.

Re: YA Cliches: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

JuniorFrenzySista — Mon, 19 Mar 2012 21:06:21 -0700

My current novel has two FMCs. Ria is all tanned and freckled and spends a lot of time outside (or she did before she moved to the city) whereas Val is very pale and spends most of her time inside. I guess I'm probably guilty of the cliche but at the same time, Val doesn't really go outside. At all. So while I could probably change her character a little to give her darker skin, to me it fits her character and my picture of her in my head. And I'm trying to skip most cliches so I've given myself some leeway here.