So my issue is that I have someone who is shot in the head from relatively close range (2-3 feet) with a handgun, and the bullet exiting out the back of his head and getting lodged in the shoulder of a girl sitting behind of him. He dies, she doesn't.
My questions:
- Are there handguns that powerful, and if so, what are they?
- Would the girl contract any sort of disease from the blood/entrails on the bullet (or for that matter, the bullet itself)?
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50,130 / 50,000
Oct 3, 2007 - 18 23
Interesting question you have here. I'll try to answer as best I can.
Yes, there are definitely handguns with enough power to do as you describe. I assume you are talking about the projectie passing through two layers of bone (either side of the skull). That would be the most difficult penetration path for the bullet. There are easier paths; for example, entering via an eye socket, the bullet would encounter zero resistance, and would then have to defeat only one layer of bone to exit.
Anyways, a small handgun such as a .22, 9mm Beretta, or .32 snub-nose probably would not have the kinetic energy to pass completely through the skull. However, a larger, more powerful handgun such as a Colt .45 or a Desert Eagle would most certainly be able to do as you describe, especially from such a close range.
Ammunition also could play a factor here. Some ammo types such as dum-dum, frangible rounds, or "Talon" expanding rounds have reduced penetration. Other ammo types such as Teflon-coated would have increased penetration.
As for the idea of transmission of disease from one person to another via a bullet, I would imagine it would be possible. In the American Civil War there is a documented case of a Union soldier being shot with a Minnie Ball that passed through his testicles and struck the woman standing behind him in her torso. The Minnie Ball lodged in her ovary and she became pregnant from the soldier's sperm that was carried by the Minnie Ball. So I would imagine that pathogens could be transmitted the same way.
As for becoming ill from the actual bullet itself, that is less likely. Most bullets manufactured these days are either made out of something other than lead, or are coated with some substance to prevent people handling the bullets from coming in direct contact with the lead. I would imagine the wound itself would be a much larger concern to the target, than any illness from the bullet.
----------0 / 50,000
Oct 3, 2007 - 19 14
Double post edited.
----------Favourite gun myths.
1) Bullets knock people down. No, really.
2) .45 ACP is the only pistol round worth using. No question.
3) .50 BMG is illegal for use in warfare against people, but not materiel. Truth.
0 / 50,000
Oct 3, 2007 - 19 26
Any average or above handgun round would do it. 9mm certainly would, it has excellent penetration qualities, so would .45 ACP and so would any of the rounds Desert Eagles are chambered for (.357/.41/.44 Magnum, .50 AE). Don't confuse firearms with the type of ammunition they fire.
A teflon coating on a bullet is to reduce barrel wear. It does not increase the bullet's penetrative properties.
Most bullets are still made with lead, because it's an excellent material for it, and infection rates of wounds made with lead bullets are higher than those made with non-lead bullets. However, it's not a great concern with modern medical care.
----------Favourite gun myths.
1) Bullets knock people down. No, really.
2) .45 ACP is the only pistol round worth using. No question.
3) .50 BMG is illegal for use in warfare against people, but not materiel. Truth.
50,130 / 50,000
Oct 3, 2007 - 20 03
(OK, good points there. To prevent gun/ammo confusion, we'll talk only in terms of ammo)
You are correct, a 9mm COULD penetrate a human body completely. However, there are many factors that come into play: the angle of impact, the range, the thickness of the bone at the point of impact, the powder load in the round, etc). In certain scenarios, it would penetrate, in others, it would not. Case in point:
http://www.perfectunion.com/vb/showthread.php?t=44393
If you want to be SURE that no one will doubt your fictional bullet fully penetrating someone's head, I would recommend you go with a .45 ACP or .44 Magnum.
And you are correct in that the Teflon coating on a bullet does not, in itself, increase penetration appreciably. But Teflon-coated bullets have a brass core, and the brass core has a higher penetration than lead. The Teflon was needed to reduce the barrel wear because the brass did not deform to fit the riflings on the barrel, and hence would wear out the gun much faster. But by "increased penetration" I mean the ability to penetrate windshields or thin metal (like car doors), not bulletproof vests. The "cop killer" pistol bullet is a myth.
[edit: I've been doing some internet research, and the "Incredible Minnie Ball Pregnancy" case may be a myth after all. Well heck. But still, I would imagine transmittal of pathogens should be possible. I'll check with a buddy of mine who's still in the Army and get back to you. ]
----------0 / 50,000
Oct 3, 2007 - 22 14
One of the most well-known characteristics of 9mm is it's tendency to (over)penetrate. It's often cited as one of its main drawbacks, it penetrates deeper and leaves a smaller wound channel than .45 ACP. 9mm will usually penetrate deeper than .45 ACP. Hollow-point bullets, .45 or 9mm, will go through a human head, seeing as they are usually designed to penetrate 12-18 inches of flesh.
Probably the only type of bullets that wouldn't are frangible rounds, which have shockingly poor penetrative characteristics.
Same goes for .45 ACP and .44 Mag. Just because they're a bigger calibre does not render them immune to ballistics. 9mm full metal jackets have a reputation of completely penetrating human targets. .45 ACP, even in FMJ, does not.
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Guns-Firearms-Projectile-1501/357-SIG-Penetra... - "A frequent problem with 9mm ammuntion is collateral damage due to overpenetration."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9_mm_Luger_Parabellum - "Its main disadvantages are its tendency to overpenetrate and small wound cavity size when nonexpanding bullets are used."
Higher veolcity + smaller frontal area = more penetration.
.38 Special, 9mm, .357/.41/.44 Mag, .40 S&W, ..45 ACP, 357 SIG, etc will all do the job.
----------Favourite gun myths.
1) Bullets knock people down. No, really.
2) .45 ACP is the only pistol round worth using. No question.
3) .50 BMG is illegal for use in warfare against people, but not materiel. Truth.
24,388 / 50,000
Oct 7, 2007 - 19 23
The Minie Ball pregnancy is a myth. Check out the Urban Legends web site. (I think it's www.snopes.com)
If blood can remain on a bullet, then blood bourne diseases can be transmitted from one person to another this way. Plus, the blood (and other matter) doesn't have to be just on the bullet. She'll probably be splattered in blood from the exit wound and she could be infected that way.
----------Click your heels together three times and say:
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There's no rewrites 'til December.
There's no rewrites 'til December.
33,611 / 50,000
Oct 4, 2007 - 07 47
It is unlikely that a blood-borne disease would be transferred in the way you're suggesting.
Bullets may carry blood particles when they exit the first target, but you have to remember that the bullet is likely still travelling at a ridiculously fast speed. Think of the water of your car in a rainstorm: it "rolls" towards the back and eventually flies off. Now imagine your car is going 500 miles an hour: the water is going to be SHOOTING off your car.
Now, the analogy isn't quite the same (bullets don't really travel 500 miles an hour, although they are startlingly fast), but you also have to remember that a bullet is very small, very aerodynamic, and only carrying a few drops of blood at the most. That blood is going to come off pretty quickly, and even if there IS still some on the bullet, the amount is so miniscule that it would be unlikely to effectively transmit a blood-borne disease. Unless the immune system was seriously weakened.
However, that being said, it is not entirely outside the realm of possibility. If you want it to happen in your story, there will be enough suspension of disbelief to carry you through. So, yes, you can do it. Real life? Probably not going to happen.
----------Resident Expert on Just About Everything (JAE)
Do you have a question on Just About Everything? Gimme a call, I'll be around.
(Also, I moonlight as a ressurector of questions that have never been answered)
0 / 50,000
Oct 4, 2007 - 08 15
The relatively slow .45 ACP travels at about 580mph (850 feet per second).
The faster 9mm travels at 780mph (1150 feet per second).
And these are only pistol rounds. Rifle rounds move much faster.
----------Favourite gun myths.
1) Bullets knock people down. No, really.
2) .45 ACP is the only pistol round worth using. No question.
3) .50 BMG is illegal for use in warfare against people, but not materiel. Truth.
50,303 / 50,000
Oct 12, 2007 - 11 25
also, the heat of the round would tend to kill pathogens. As has been stated, the way to infect someone is from contact with the newly-made dead body, or blood spatter in general.
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5,079 / 50,000
Nov 2, 2007 - 07 19
I have to point out that this was something that was covered on the Discovery Channel show, Mythbusters, a while ago. They used as close to period guns and ammunition as they could find to recreate the myth. Shooting a bullet through a pouch of sperm and into a block of ballistics gel, they showed that it was not possible for any of the soldier's genetic material to survive the trip. The minnie ball was still very hot when it hit the pouch, so all of the sperm was burned before it hit the woman.
Even if genetic material could have survived the trip, mature sperm are not actually stored in testes, so it would be unlikely that the woman would become pregnant even if she could survive the shot. Civil War era technology tended to be more about eliminating injured limbs than it was about saving them.
183,787 / 50,000
Nov 13, 2007 - 11 33
Sorry to slightly hijack the thread but I thought it better than clogging up the forums with another just for a simple question (hopefully someone sees this.)
I have a fight scene with both people using handguns... I'm wondering what happens if two bullets happen to hit each other... do they just deflect or would they shatter or something? (I realise how improbable it is for someone to shoot a bullet, but hey, luck happens :)