I was thinking about my idea for NaNo today, which I'm calling The False Gods Project until I have an actual title. As I've said elsewhere on the site, it's about a group of people who are given godlike powers, suddenly and without warning, and who end up causing a lot of chaos on this one continent... especially after people discover that despite their powers, they're not invincible. I decided early on to leave out most of the the traditional fantasy races and animals - no elves, no dragons, no dwarves, and so on and so forth - just to keep things relatively simple and straightforward. At first, I thought that I wanted the people of this continent to practice magic, which is why I put this into the fantasy genre despite that.
But now I'm thinking that I don't want the people of this continent to practice magic. It makes the appearance of these would-be gods stand out that much more if they aren't used to people who manipulate supernatural forces on a daily basis. Of course, this feels a little unnatural to me - I mean, I'm writing fantasy without dragons or elves or wizards? What? But we do have these people who are being given fantastic powers, and so I think that it still fits. Maybe.
Anyway, that brings me to my question. Have any of you lot read or written fantasy that seemed to lack most of the traditional fantasy elements? What makes a story fantasy and not just regular fiction? What defines the genre? I'm quite curious about this, so what do you all think?
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"There is nothing like a good book to put you to sleep with the illusion that life is rich and meaningful."
- Robert Penn Warren, All the King's Men
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Oct 16, 2007 - 13 32
Oh boy, that's a difficult question. There are a multitude of answers.
Fantasy has been around for a very long time. It might very well be the oldest of genres starting from folktales. It has evolved with every generation and with each new story author's tell. The modern view of fantasy is mostly informed by Tolkien and Lewis. But elves, wizards and mystical lions aside...
Distill it down and what you have is a place where some/all of the natural laws are nulled or otherwise broken through "unnatural" means, ie magic (usually).
Dragons, elves and the rest are often included but not a necessary element of fantasy.
One of the most recent books I read is Fire and Hemlock by Diana Wynne Jones (also wrote Howl's Moving Castle). It was a "modern" fantasy and magic was an extremely uncommon occurance. The Cat Who series by Lilian Jackson Braun is not technically fantasy but the uncommon intelligence the cats of the stories show suggest a possible fantasy outlet. I don't know if you know anything about the Guardians of Ga'Hoole series by Lasky (it's a young readers series) or maybe Redwall by Jacques is a better example. There is very little "magic" in those series as well, but all the characters are highly intelligent animals.
Another really good example is A Wrinkle in Time. A very trippy example.
I'm sure other people have more examples.
But I wouldn't worry about the fact that there are no dragons or elves, or the fact that your humans don't really practice magic at all. If some of your characters are endowed with unnatural gifts through unnatural ways, well, that's fantasy.
----------I live in my own little world, but it's okay....they know me there.
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Oct 16, 2007 - 13 41
Well, the very fact that you're creating maps means that this must be a Fantasy (see Fantasy Forum You know you're writing a Fantasy when...) :) Seriously though, I definately think this story fits Fantasy since it has characters with un-ordinary powers. A Fantasy can be anything that contains a hero, mythology/morality, magic or alternate worlds. It only needs one of those things. Robin Hood is considered a Fantasy by some. I once read a quoate that said :
"Science Fiction is a representation of what could happen... Fantasy is what we wish could happen."
-----------can't remember who said it.
MissWrite
Writing is a socially acceptable form of schizophrenia. ~E.L. Doctorow
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Oct 16, 2007 - 14 18
Also, reading Diana Wynne Jones book "The Tough Guide To Fantasy Land" is pretty much a must :)
----------Member of SFFmuse
Nano #1 done at 62,857. #2 (the sequel) starting soon....
50,014 / 50,000
Oct 16, 2007 - 15 20
I personally am writing a fantasy novel without magic, divine influence, etc.
You can tell that it's fantasy, though, because it's in a made-up country with ninjas, kings, queens, etc.
I think it's a fantasy if it is all made up - you know, not like written as historical fiction, but written to break all the rules and be an utterly different society.
----------You're never to old to belive in a little magic...
"In the beginning there was nothing, and it exploded."
--- Terry Pratchett
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Oct 17, 2007 - 02 50
Ahh - That's exactly the kind of fantasy I like to write. I call it "fantasy that obeys the laws of physics".. so, none of that wizard, vampire, supernatural stuff, but in an obviously imagined setting. I didn't know anybody else was really into this kind of thing, so it's heartening to find some comrades in arms!
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Oct 17, 2007 - 03 23
I, too, have left magic out of my fantasy novel... there is one Alchemist, but everything he does is scientifically sound (at least for now). I have also left out all other races aside from humans... no elves, no orcs, no other races, period. There is a legend that speaks of an elf-like race (though not called elves) but that is more of a religious belief than a real important part of the story (though I am undecided on if it will be played at if I write more books in this world after this one). That said, I do, unfortunately have dragons, though they are not called dragons. They are referred to much differently, but are, in essence, dragons... again, though, they don't really play a role in the story. I have created a new race of imp like creatures... but they have so many differences that the similarities are barely noticeable... blah... anyway, now I'm rambling and avoiding the question.
But yeah... there are plenty of ways to have a fantasy without any traditional fantastical elements. Basically anything that has something at its core that is not scientifically sound is easily fantasy. People suddenly getting godlike powers if fantasy... now if its explained to be a scientific experiment that these people are unaware of, that plays at mutation of DNA or anything like that, then it would be a straight out science fiction, not a fantasy.
Take note... all fantasy is sci-fi, as it falls under the definition of such, but not all sci-fi is fantasy.
----------GUILD WARS - Thomas Parry - Guild: Seekers of Valor [Sov] - Rank: Officer - Job: Wiki Editor
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Oct 17, 2007 - 03 42
Dwarves, elves and dragons don't define the genre. The Fantastic defines the genre.
Fantastic means not everyday. Imaginative and fanciful. Bizarre and exotic.
If your protagonists are given god-like powers, I would definitely say that it counts as fantasy. Fantasy derives from myth.
Myth is a type of fantasy.
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Oct 17, 2007 - 07 50
Actually, lack of magic is a major plot point for me.
Magic used to exist, but has been sealed away and forgotten. Attempts to revive magic are greatly discouraged by the present theological system. Basically the new gods came in, kicked out the old gods, and declared that anything associated with the old gods aka "magic" was blasphemy. And the new gods' church actively seeks out signs of people trying to reestablish magic in the world.
My book has no elves, dwarves, dragons, blah blah, though I have different "races" one of which may be considered elfin in temperment if not laden with pointed ears, and a warrior race of humans with antlers. There's a veiled reference to something that may have been a unicorn, but being magical, it's probably just a myth.
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NANOWRIMO 2007: If Wishes Were Horses
Twelve Chapters. Thirty Days. No Sweat.
120,822 words -- 12/12 chapters completed
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Oct 17, 2007 - 07 57
I got the feeling, with the implication of feline aliens in the end of The Cat Who Saw Stars, that the author was leaning more towards science fiction than fantasy, actually.
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NaNo 2006: Steel Bars - 59,233 words
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116,377 / 50,000
Oct 17, 2007 - 07 59
actually, there's Fantasy--no science required (LOTR. Harry Potter. Magic may have internal rules but no rules based on scientific principle). LOTR is sometimes cited as "high fantasy" though I'm not sure what low fantasy would be...
Then there's Science Fiction, which demands some scientific basis, even though the science itself is shaky (Einstein vs. FTL travel is a good example. Doesn't have to be possible, just has to be plausible. Star Trek. Dune. Blade Runner.)
Then there's science fantasy: a fantasy story with the accoutrements of SF without any science involved. Example, Star Wars. You could easily move the whole story into the Old West and it would hold up. And no, mitichlorians are not science :-P
I'm not a fan of fantasy because I like my fantastic stuff to have rules; I skew toward hard SF. But I have this story, so it's a challenge to be able to pull it off while not believing in it myself.
And also keep in mind Clarke's Third Law: Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
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NANOWRIMO 2007: If Wishes Were Horses
Twelve Chapters. Thirty Days. No Sweat.
120,822 words -- 12/12 chapters completed
51,165 / 50,000
Oct 17, 2007 - 08 13
If fantasy requires magic, I've got to figure out just what genre I've been writing in that I thought was fantasy. :)
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Oct 17, 2007 - 08 35
Add me to the "not using magic in my Fantasy novel" list as well.
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Oct 17, 2007 - 09 30
What I'd say is that fantasy and science fiction are two separate, sometimes disparate, sometimes overlapping, branches of the overarching speculative fiction genre.
And the OP's tale looks to me to fall pretty solidly into the fantasy branch. Supernatural powers are magic, and blatant magic means fantasy, even if the powers in question aren't wielded by old bearded guys with pointy hats and there aren't any elves or dragons in sight.
As for "fantasy without magic"... I did something like that for NaNo a couple years ago (my one winner so far). I don't think it actually qualifies as fantasy, come to that, though it certainly looks like it. It's technically alternate history, I think, but has less resemblance to typical representatives of that spec fic subgenre than it does to typical low fantasy.
There's the sword-wielding hero, and the beautiful princess, and her brother the tyrannical king, the setting that resembles medieval Europe but isn't, the ominous astronomical event... but there's no magic at all, no supernatural powers, no fantastic beasts, nothing that isn't, to the best of my knowledge, strictly physically possible, and the setting is Earth - though not Europe, and with a very different though curiously similar history. Even that omen in the sky is a perfectly mundane astronomical event - the supernova SN 1006 - and any mystical significance is totally the invention of the characters. Its appearance and apparent relevance are actually genuine coincidence... I didn't realize until I was halfway through the tale, with the plot already firmly laid down, that the brightest supernova in recorded history appeared at the time I was writing about (which I'd pretty arbitrarily set as a nice round thousand years ago), and would've been visible, low on the southern horizon, from where my story is set.
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Oct 17, 2007 - 14 11
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that supernatural powers equal fantasy, even if they're not all that common in the world. This is just the closest that I've ever come to creating a fantasy setting without magic at all, so it's a step in a strange direction. I'm just wondering how far one could go in that direction and still be writing fantasy.
----------"There is nothing like a good book to put you to sleep with the illusion that life is rich and meaningful."
- Robert Penn Warren, All the King's Men
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Oct 17, 2007 - 20 05
I haven't used magic one bit in my 5-6 novels and 25 + short stories, but they are all definately fantasy.
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M. Lori Motley
NaNo 06 -- The Shadow's Song - Final Edit - 96,000 words
----------NaNo 07 -- Stranger Beneath
www.MLoriMotley.com
Currently editing NaNo '07: Brother Crow
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Oct 17, 2007 - 20 43
As everyone here has already mentioned, fantasy does not equal elves nor does it equal magic. The one I'm planning has neither as well.
But just a thought about your magic idea... What if the people of the continent practice really simple trivial magic, like very limited telekinetics and/or telepathy and this group of godlike people simply have the same magic blown way out of proportion, making them stand out, but making it more plausible? Just an idea that popped into my head when I was reading your post.
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Oct 18, 2007 - 04 37
That's a really interesting idea. I might have to consider trying that, although I'm not sure if it'll fit in with this story idea. Thanks!
----------"There is nothing like a good book to put you to sleep with the illusion that life is rich and meaningful."
- Robert Penn Warren, All the King's Men
116,377 / 50,000
Oct 18, 2007 - 05 59
One of the best non traditional--for which read, non European style-- fantasy books EVER is "Bridge of Birds" by Barry Hughart. Set in China in the same period as the early dark ages for Europe, roughly the 600's, it's about a guy whose on a quest to find a cure for a strange disease that affects the children of his village and his run in with a very Sherlock Holmesian old man with a penchant for the illegal done in the cause of right... on the way they meet up with things mythological and mysterious, but the hero uses only his muscles and his elderly companion his wits, until they realize that the gods themselves are in on the mystery, and they have no choice but to take on the god's quest in order to solve their own...
Find this book and love it. Trust me.
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NANOWRIMO 2007: If Wishes Were Horses
Twelve Chapters. Thirty Days. No Sweat.
120,822 words -- 12/12 chapters completed
24,464 / 50,000
Oct 18, 2007 - 10 18
Heh heh. Genres confuse me sometimes. :)
Thinking about this some more, now... I can see that magic (or any of those other elements that I've mentioned) isn't the line. I'm just hoping to pinpoint exactly where the line is.
Just for the sake of example, what if I were to write a story about a plucky young man who leaves his home in the country and starts to travel, meeting people and gathering companions as he goes, and learning things about himself, the world in general, and about some big family secret that he'd never thought to question before? No magic or unusual events, no special physics, nothing more than a kid on a journey. Now, if I were to write this story and set it in, say, rural Virginia shortly after the Civil War, that wouldn't be fantasy. It would be historical fiction, I suppose, or literary fiction, but not fantasy. But if I were to write the same plot with the same sort of characters, in another world of my own creation- somewhere very, very similar to rural Virgina after the Civil War, perhaps, but in fact some other world after some other war that's had a similar effect on the world that they're in - it would be fantasy, even without the sorts of things that usually show up in fantasy worlds. Right?
What counts, in this sort of case, is that the world is not real, and therefore more a work of the author's imagination than the real world (or somewhere that's obviously standing in for the real world.) That's the impression that I'm getting. Does that sound right to anyone?
----------"There is nothing like a good book to put you to sleep with the illusion that life is rich and meaningful."
- Robert Penn Warren, All the King's Men
10,017 / 50,000
Oct 18, 2007 - 13 21
Hmm, I'm doing the same thing with my non-Nano novel. Well, minus the ninjas :). But it's definitely a fantasy - set on a different world that's a mishmash of cultures similar to some of ours, focused on the queen of a country that I like to describe as "if the Greeks had invaded the nomads of the Russian steppes and later invited some germanic tribes. And the Irish."
No magic whatsoever. But there are lots of wars and political treachery and many shiny sword fights. So I call it a fantasy.
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Oct 18, 2007 - 18 27
That sounds about right to me...not that my opinion is worth much in this matter. :)
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Oct 18, 2007 - 19 07
To say if Fantasy has to include magic, you'll have to define both Fantasy and magic. I'd say that Fantasy is defined by a focus on elements which are inexplicable by any natural laws of our world. So if you take 'magic' to mean anything supernatural, I'd say you can't write Fantasy without magic. But if magic is only supernatural forces used by people (or any creatures) then yes, you can write Fantasy without it.
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Oct 18, 2007 - 22 36
Fantasy without magic! I'm excited to try one this year, set in a made-up world but without any of the other usual fantasy elements.
Other than that, I really have nothing new to say that hasn't been said so I'll take my leave...
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Oct 19, 2007 - 06 41
I've heard it said that the three basic elements of fantasy are a mythical world/history, fantastic creatures, and magic. If it meets any of the three, I'd say it can most likely be considered fantasy. Unless, of course, it's obviously stated that the "fantasy creatures" are aliens or the "mythical world" is another planet, and even then it might be science-fantasy.
My big long-term project is fantasy without magic. It does take place on an imaginary world, and there are lots of gryphons and dragons. However, I don't really treat them as "fantasy creatures"--in my world, the gryphons and dragons are ordinary civilizations just as the humans are.
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Oct 22, 2007 - 21 13
Hurrah, fantasy without magic! I'm doing the same. I wasn't sure if it was fantasy at all, honestly, but it is set in a completely made-up world with completely made-up rules, so... I guess it is. :) So nice to find others!
----------2004: Memoirs of a Stalker (24k)
2005: Crazy Quilt (74.5k)
2006: Two-Piece Jigsaw (50k)
2007: Absolutely
current word count: 59,026
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Oct 22, 2007 - 21 23
I struggled with mine considerably before labeling it Urban Fantasy. There is shapeshifting... but it's genetic, and not magical... and magic users... whom are really just psychics who can tap into energy and manipulate it. My storyline and the subsequent details were also described as Science Fantasy, since there ARE fantastic elements, just... more realworld.
If it seems like it fits in fantasy, and it does to me, then go for it. How do they GET godlike powers? That could be more of a deciding factor, rather than what the results are.
----------~~Alien Penguin~~
1,645 / 50,000
Oct 22, 2007 - 22 06
I'm asking myself the definition of fantasy as well. My Steampunk/Adventure/Fantasy genre NaNo-novel, |Szighuon Tales: Siegfred's Giant|, has almost no magic in it. It is set in the capital city of a nation filled with the Szighuon people, who shun magic in favor of "science" (which varies from garden variety botany to the largely mysterious field of chemistry to the few whacked out Alchemists who create Chimeras and Undead-Junk hybrids known as Patchdolls) and machinery (Steam-powered as well as Clockwork). The only magic used is Rune-related, and the users, known as the Sarne, are divided between small "Native" villages in remote locations and Szighuon-run cities, which opress the Sarne so efficiently that the main character, Siegfred Jamikand, has no idea that he is Sarne until he leaves Szighuon territory and meets some Natives.
All of the races, the Szighuon, Sarne and a third race, just beginning to immigrate to Szigh, the brown-skinned Rayariyaana, are equivalent in physical and mental capacity to humans, the most dangerous monsters are now created in labs, and guns are beginning to become the weapon of choice.
Knowing this, I would say that the story belongs in the fantasy genre because of the sense of wonder that this world I have imagined creates. It teeters on the edges of Sci-Fi and Historical Fiction, but the notion that the setting, Algiers is so new for the reader and the main character allows me to stuff my novel in the nook of fantasy.
----------NaNo 2008, what will you bring?
More WKRC? The Triumphant return of Siegfred's Giant? The Misadventures of Hans and Greta? Or the newly discovered From one Architect to Another?
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Oct 24, 2007 - 10 28
I almost never include magic in my fantasy. Too often I find it cliche-ridden and a lazy get-out clause for bad writing. Having said that, somewhow a little magic has crept into my nano novel, although it's more of an energy source that is then harnessed in semi-scientific ways.
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Oct 24, 2007 - 13 19
Likewise, schweinsty. What I do like to include, however, is folklore and legends that the characters talk about, but they are just myths. This exists even in today's world; many people tell tall tales of fantastical events that never happened (at least they didn't to us). My novel includes characters who believe in divine influence, but whether or not that's a reality is up to the reader :)
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