Tragedy -- does it fly in this genre?

Like all stories, it depends on the story being told and the storyteller. If its a good story written well, then it will be well received. Take Hamlet or Romeo and Juliet....and their many, many revamps....these are all well written and still beloved to this day. There are many other contemporary novels that support this, too.

Also, remember that if you do it well, the reader won't know its a died in the wool tragedy until near the end of the story, so by then the reader has already either decided that they like the book or not.

So try it.

Stravos

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J. R. R. Tolkien managed it. One of his greatest stories actually ends with both of the MCs dying rather horribly...Yay for Children of Hurin! Nobody ends up happy in that one...not to mention the incest...

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I agree--it depends on how you do it. One of my novels this year will be a tragedy in the sense that I pretty much kill off every single character who dares make an appearance. (Well, actually, the MC kills off everyone before killing himself… really, I don't see much else happening in the end. *evil grin*)

I like well-done tragedy, or tragic stories. Try it, see what happens--not everything has to have a happy ending, just a satisfactory one (if you ask me).

Good luck!

~Merc

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Read Dusk by Tim Lebbon. It's not the best story I've ever read, but the ending absolutely blew me away with how tragic it was. If you want to know specifically what happens, NaNoMail me. I honestly thought the best thing about the story was its shocking ending. So yes, I think it can be done - and probably better than Lebbon did it.

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At the risk of sounding like a broken, fannish record, Michael Moorcock's most popular and succesful character by far is Elric, who is as tragic as they come. It's been a while since their heyday, but still, that's one great icon of Fantasy that was defined by his tragic fate and general doom-ladenness. (Neat new omnibus series coming from Del Rey next year)

And also again, Poul Anderson's The Broken Sword has an ending much more evocative of Norse sagas (and ancient stories in general) than Tolkien's notion of the "eucatastrophe". I think it's the application of that idea in LotR, in combination with a general prevalence of happy endings in popular culture, that makes tragedies a rare sight in popular High Fantasy. But like Stravos points out, there are plenty of highly regarded tragedies.

I always thought Robin Hobb's original Farseer trilogy had a pretty tragic ending.

Spoilers ahead if you haven't read it!

Although Fitz, the main character, does help to 'save the world,' at the end of the story, he's known as a traitor to the whole country, he's lost his lover and most of his family, almost everyone he cares about believes him dead, and he can't go back and prove that he's alive and not a traitor without revealing that he practices an abhorrent form of magic that would get him executed. No cheery ending there, and one of the reasons I loved the books, since it is a far more real and legitimate ending than some version in which Fitz comes back a hero and everyone decides to be tolerant of his particular brand of magic because he's just saved them all.

Spoilers over

It is hard to think of other fantasy books which end without some sort of uplifting ending, though. But I think if it feels right for your story, there's no reason why you shouldn't go in that direction. Some readers may not like it, but if the ending has a sense of inevitability or there's no plausible way for there to be some kind of happy resolution, then I think most will appreciate that. Frankly, I'd rather read an excellent book that ended tragically than a book that was fantastic up to the point where the author arbitrarily gave everyone a happy ending just because.

Not to sound like I'm bagging you out, but I honestly cannot think of a fantasy that is so tragic that I've read.

I wouldn't even consider drawing a comparison of any of Shakespeare's work with modern fantasy, to me it's completely different. As for the Farseer series, they do have a follow on series. If Assassin's Quest was the last book, yes, it would be tragic, but there is the Tawny Man series afterwards (and technically the Liveship Trader's series is a part of them as well).

A lot of readers I know and have surveyed say they feel cheated out or find it really hard to connect emotionally to a fantasy if it ends tragically. I don't think it could never be done, but I do think it would be extraordinarily hard for readers and publishers at the moment to get into it. Of course the genre changes all the time, and this is solely my opinion.

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Tales of the Otori, by Lian Hearne, is a fantasy series set in a land roughly analogous to Feudal Japan. It is tragic, in every sense of the word, both ending badly for the majority of the characters involved and doing so in a manner both foreshadowed for most of the length of the book and brought about inevitably by the well-intentioned actions and choices of the main characters.

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Hm...well, I think fantasy often has a tragic element to it. Of things I've read recently, I think you could say "The Fall of the Kings" has a halfway tragic ending--but I can't offhand think of anything in fantasy where it all went horribly wrong for everyone.

I can also think of a lot of anime where it does. Now, I know these are totally different things, and I'm sorry if bringing it up if it touches a sore spot for you in any way. However, I can think of many quite popular anime that have truly tragic endings--from, "Oh noez! The true loves do not end up together!" to "Holy crap, the main cast just got eaten by demons!" to "The whole world must go!...one MC at a time." (Seriously, they kill each main character individually, and then the world ends.)

But these are still popular series--not just in Japan, but in the US. Since there is a certain amount of crossover between fantasy readers and anime watchers, I think you have some built-in audience. And, since it's likely that while there are people who like tragedy in the form of distressing cartoons, there are probably plenty of other people who would like it in book form. I mean, Robert Cormier (dead but not forgotten) helped to establish Young Adult as a market. He wrote some of the most disturbing (mainly psychologically) books ever, none of which, to my knowledge, had a happy ending, and he remains one of the most widely read YA authors to this day. Every library has him. Every librarian finds him immensely creepy.

(I myself never read his books more than once, though I may have to redo "The Rag and Bone Shop," which was his last book and basically all his years of creepiness squooshed together into one skinny, perfect, horrifying little masterpiece.)

As for your book. If it's a good book--you find the right editor, and I don't see any reason that an upsetting ending could stop you being published. As for your readers--you'll tick people off, sure, but it's good to tick people off now and again. And it certainly makes you more interesting--unless you do it in every book.

It's true that the follow-ups to the original Farseer trilogy do end on a more positive note for the characters involved, thus making the cycle as a whole not really so tragic. But imho they are mostly dreadful, esp Tawny Man, precisely because they felt like Hobb was trying to backpedal and give Fitz a happier ending, and it simply didn't work for me in the context of the whole situation. But that's another discussion entirely...

Not only does it fly in the genre, it is somewhat in vogue I think. People have mentioned some books, and I could add another ten or so to the list pretty easily. But the answer to the question is that yes it certainly flies. Anything that flies in terms of thematic elements etc. in other genres flies pretty well in fantasy too.

I think it fits perfectly into the genre . And, let's face it-- if your story is a tragedy, making a trite Happily Ever After ending just for the sake of it won't work as well.

Others have mentioned great writers with tragic endings, so feel free to check them out. You might want to consider the sub-genre of dark fantasy (though simply having a tragic ending doesn't make the story dark).

Personally? The absolutely heart-wrenching stories are wonderful, and I'm more inclined to love, remember, and recommend them than the throngs of cheesy endings out there. ^^

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Let me put it this way: tragedy had better fit within fantasy, because there's a lot of it happening in my story. For example, a girl dies and her father falls apart as a result, ignoring all other responsibilities he has thus putting his other children and wives in danger. In fact, now that I think about it, quite a lot of characters die, though less tragically. Rather the most tragic character is the father who lives.

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I can't speak for editors or publishers, but I think there's a difference between a story not having a happy ending and one that offends the readers expectations. If you've got a tragic ending that works well you'll probably be fine. If everyone's lives are ruined and the reader is left holding the book saying, "WTF? I thought everything would be fine." That's when you'll get hate mail.

Like someone else mentioned, in tragedy - classical tragedy - you can see that the ending is not going to be happy. I loved Hamlet, but I knew pretty early on that the main character was going to die. I was just happy that Horatio didn't. (Thrilled, really, since he was my favorite character and I half expected him to get it too.)

What I'm trying to say is: As long as the ending makes sense, you're probably fine. If the good guys seem to defeat the big bad guys only to have the world end anyway, that's when your readers might have problems with the ending.

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Heh. Okay. You asked the question from a marketing standpoint, so I'll answer it from a marketing standpoint. It can be done, but it's VERY, VERY hard. If the book is well written, there's a chance that an agent will like it enough to take it on, and an even smaller chance that an editor will buy it. But for every step away from a happy ending you take, the quality of your writing and the (for lack of a better word) organicness of your ending has to be just that much better. (By "organicness" I mean that the ending has to stem from the story, there can't be any other way it could end. And yes, the end can surprise them, but at the same time, they have to put that book down knowing there was no other way it could have ended, or else they'll feel like you're just trying to shock and/or manipulate them. And they'd be right.) So, it can be done, but it's hard.

With that said, I just HAVE to add a caveat: this is your story, and you *have* to write the story inside you. If the novel has a depressing, tragic, horrible ending, well, let it come out! Be true to your story. And who knows? If you're really being true to your story, and not just trying to shock your readers, maybe there's a chance that editors and readers will see that, and will connect with it.

All good responses.

I'm having trouble classifying the work as dark fantasy, because it retains several undeniably high-fantastical elements. I've considered the possibility of pitching it as dark fantasy by choosing the sorts of publishers that would be interested in that sort of work, but that's really an agent's job, not mine. From what I understand, tragic plot points and endings still aren't exactly common--it's more about a Dystopian setting and "dark" themes. If I'm getting it all wrong, let me know, because I don't read much in that subgenre.

I don't know how I missed this Elric series. I'll add that to my to-read list. I've heard of Mr Cormier, but I don't read much young-adult stuff these days. I have to agree that the Tawny Man trilogy ruined the Assassin trilogy, but it was still decent work. And that story about Hurin's kids? Although I personally love it, most people haven't read it, and probably wouldn't like it due to the writing style. Tolkien wasn't writing that for a wide audience.

So then I looked up Dusk--which I haven't read--and was pleased to find that it has a few things in common with my work, such as a post-apocalyptic setting resulting from the misuse of magical power. There's also the question of whether magic and the knowledge required to manipulate it should be allowed to flourish again, given the likelihood of further damage to the world. That suggests there's an audience for the some of the conflicts presented in my work. Yet if the reviews are to be believed, Mr Lebbon didn't do a particularly good job putting down the ideas into writing.

I don't believe death should be the ultimate conclusion to tragedy. In fact, some of my MCs survive the story intact. However, the way I ended up writing the conclusion--with the primary POV MC coming into his own as antiheroic--I know that most of them would've rather died than face the future they're left with.

It just feels right to me, so I'm going to try my best to make it feel as organic and believable as possible to the reader.

You might also check out Ian Graham's book MONUMENT. Dark. Elements of tragedy. And the protagonist has no redeeming qualities. As a reader, you hate the guy, and yet the story works well.

I like it. I've been trying to come up with a reasonable scenario in which the good guys end up deliberately destroying the world (with 'world' defined according to whatever regions contain life, as far as they can tell). It's difficult, since in order for the good guys to be good while accomplishing this, there has to be something far worse as the alternative.

But, there are two issues, that of your characters failing, which is depressing, and that of things turning out badly, which is tragic. You certainly need victories in a tragedy, and laughter. Barring those, there's no point.

In a lot of ways, I think I find myself in a similar situation with my own series. Not a certain book, mind you, but the end of a trilogy. Now, don't go telling people because I know that I have several who have read book II and are looking forward to a happy book III, but they're not gonna get it and part of me hates to break it to them.

It's like I asked in another forum...if Star Wars would have been done in chronological order, would people hate it? How would people react to the "fall" of Anakin? if they didn't know that he does a final atonement and that his children make a happy ending eventually? I confess that when my trilogy is published and people read book III, I will be getting some disgruntled responses. However, I am foreshadowing heavily and making it very natural, although I might be procrastinating some of the transition in that I doubt anyone will expect it before they hit book III. Of course, there is tragedy throughout it all. Had one reader suggest the hero's girlfriend die at the end of book one, but I told her that for said character death is to clean. Just wonder if fan will lynch me when she marries someone else (almost like the adopted younger bro of hero) and eventually the hero kills her...

However, it's not urgent since book I has yet to be published, I haven't actually written book III and this NaNo I'm doing a totally different story altogether.
But I empathize with your consternation/concern.

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It certainly depends on the way the story is told, and the story itself.
I must admit, I find an over-use of tragedy, particularly to make the MCs more likeable/empathizable to be intensely irritating. However, this is a personal taste.
As for marketability, publishers, etc. one thing you have to ask yourself is, "As a reader, if I read this book, what would I walk away with?" The thing I think that keeps a lot of writers from writing incredibly heavy tragedies (and this may just be me, personally) is that a lot of people see an excessive amount of tragedy to be pointless, if not detrimental. However, this is not always the case (why would the Greek Tragedies have stuck around so long and been so well-remembered, if not?)

I think tragedy can easily work itself into stories, as long as it mirrors human or lifelike tragedy in the real world. Take Guy Gavriel Kay's books as example-- they are often tragic, but the ending can't be the end all be all, so to speak. You have to give the reader some hope that even as the end is depressing, the world itself still continues. Some aspects may be devastated, but others recover and unearth new beginnings.

If everything in the world is absolutely positively doomed forever, I can only see that in a satire or something of the sort. It won't be realistic. Even though it Is fantasy, if the reader can't identify with it as a human being, I don't think it works.

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dhasenan:

You should read MOMUMENT, by Ian Graham. It may change your conceptions regarding what you need or don't need :)