Setting the Record Straight on Male Homosexuality

Well, I guess the OP got annoyed and wanted to rant, which is fair enough. I get annoyed also, by people with agendas telling people what to write and what not to write.

First, I in turn would like to destroy the "you have to bleed the first time you have buttsex" myth - bullshit. And the "the first time must hurt and can't be fun" myth - also bullshit. You're doing it wrong. Not unusual, but if your partner was experienced enough to know better, then smack him. Hard. Sex should not be about suffering, especially not the first time.

But if it happens, heck, yes, sometimes pain does turn to pleasure. That officially does happen. Not always, no. But to claim it simply doesn't is to be blind to reality. The above author may not be wired like that, but unsurprisingly, some people are. Not just the extreme masochists either. Hell, I'm a complete and utter wuss when it comes to pain... except certain types of pain. That awesome anal stretchy pain happens to be one of mine. And I'm not uncommon in that.

Also: if a woman is writing a gay male love story, is the woman likely to have gays males as the desired demographic? You absolutely do not have to pander to the groups you are not aiming your writing to. You don't even need to pander to your intended audience.

But if your intended audience is interested in romance, then I think a non-equal relationship is probably often best. Romance is something of a pursuit. A hunt. There's a power imbalance there. If you don't portray that, then you're gonna have a challenge not writing something unutterably bland. And the easiest way to have an imbalance is to have the confident guy and the retiring guy.

In real life, the confident outgoing ones meet other confident outgoing ones in the nightclub, the quiet ones meet eachother in the library, and there's no mix-n-match... oh how boring! Two boringly similar characters get it together! They even like the same books and music! Gakkk!

Fantasy absolutely does not have to be like real life. That's why it's a fantasy.

You don't want to include anal bleeding? Then don't. Seriously, anal bleeding's not a terribly common part of even the most extreme gay porn, so there's no point making it a required part of your romantic yaoi. Same with condoms, and lube. If you feel that you want the realism, go for it. Otherwise, hell, you're writing fantasy. Be fantastic. Personally, I would include the lube: that's just personal choice though. If you want, have spit or blood works as lube. They're next to useless in real life, but once again: fantasy is not real life.

While it is reasonably true that "most hardcore dom/sub couples keep it in the bedroom," that once again is a rule only for real life. In a fantasy, do not feel that you need to restrict it to that. If you're writing a story, are you writing about "most people"? The 9-to-5ers who's idea of an interesting day is the boss congratulating them? No, you are not writing about those, you are writing about the ones that have an interesting story to tell. So, yeah, go all out and write about any extreme of relationship you want to. You do not have to depict anyone's opinion of what the "typical" relationship is.

Because, what do those only-in-the-bedroom "most" fantasise about? Do they fantasise about keeping it only in the bedroom? I can bet you they don't.

As for rape does not turn to love, well, even in real life that's bullshit, though the OP is welcome to rationalise that away if he feels uncomfortable with it, because it's not relevant to writing yaoi (or any other romance). What is relevant is that the ravishment is a standard part of romance - pick up any romance book at your local bookstore. The dom loses control of himself and pounces the sub, who actually really wants to be pounced. Ravishment ensues, followed by love. And that's completely fine! Because, a book is not real, it is a fantasy. And a rape fantasy is not the same thing as a rape, and does not have to follow the same rules!

And when writing one's fantasy, one does not need to keep in mind anything the heck at all about consenting to sex. Not unless you really enjoy the idea of throwing in a chapter or two to discussing what exactly the word "consent" means, and how age affects it.

Now me, when I was seven or eight, I was on my knees by my bed begging God that I might be initiated into that wonderful secret world of erotica that the adults had - I fantasised about gay anal fisting, high-pressure enemas, dominatrixes in leather and heels in a secret den under the playground. Where I got these fantasies I don't know, since I didn't even have the words to describe them, though as I remember the enema fantasy idea came from the firehose scene in the movie "Alcatraz".

If someone had come into my room and answered my prayers, would I have unconditionally given my consent to prettymuch any sex act? Hell yes. Would the OP have called my consent "real consent?" Probably not, he'd most likely say something about "not being old enough to understand the consequences." To which I would respond, find me a 16 or 18 yearold who would understand those consequences any better. And the sex-play between me and the other kids my age? If we weren't consenting, what the heck were we doing?

Should you care what the OP finds "Fucking Creepy"? Nope. It's not his story, it's not my story, it's yours.

Good luck with your nanos. I hope you enjoy writing them. I also hope you piss some people off with them, but that's your choice.

[Edit: it's 5am, I'm tired, and I'm aware that I am really going to regret writing this tomorrow. Ah, well.]

See, I'm working very hard to keep my m/m couple OUT of the stereotypical turn-one-into-a-chick-with-a-penis model. If I wanted to write that, I'd actually have one of them as a chick with a penis and then work with THAT issue. oO

As a female who's had anal sex, though, I've never bled or had it be exactly painful (although I've always used lube, because, well, DUH).

And reading sex with characters under the age of sixteen with ANY partner bothers me, to be completely honest, although once I did write an incest fic with a sixteen year old and his fourteen year old brother... So I don't really have room to complain. I don't read things that bother me, and nor should anyone else read things that bother them, but that doesn't mean other people shouldn't write them.

Setting the record straight on yaoi and slash fiction writers and readers:
Actually, no, it's not due to lack of information on queer men as they are. It's because the men in "yaoi" stories have nothing much to do with **men** as they are. They're a romantic fantasy of men as some of us would like them to be: passionate, emotional, androgynous in the sense of being a mix of male and female traits and stereotypes, both physically and psychologically.

I know quite a lot about the realities of real queer men, the mechanics of m/m sex, and about glbt life in general. I'm queer myself, and I know how to do research as well. I put some of those realities into my m/m romance stories, but for the most part, I'm not writing about all of that. My readers aren't looking to read about all of that. And for the romantic fantasy that it's meant to be, for the audience I'm writing it for, my writing is pretty much fine as it is, thank you. ^_^

I don't recognize myself in the female characters in most m/f romance, either, whether the old style written by men or the modern style written by straight women. Oh well. That's romantic fiction and erotic fantasy for you.

I was right. In the cold light of day, while my rant was satisfying, I feel I must apologise to you, Mittens.

An author's story is a fantasy, and telling people what they may and may not fantasise about feels very wrong to me.

But on rereading your post, it isn't saying that: so in my reply, I brutally savaged a strawman. Fun, but not productive.

While I disagree with some of the points you made, the main thrust of your post seems to have been "here is some information you may have been unaware of, all too rarely seen used in fiction: you don't have to use it, but if some of it gets into your stories, it would make me feel good in my happy place."

And I can totally agree with that.

I'm no expert on sex, I'll say that right up front. But, I can't see why anal sex would cause bleeding if it's done properly. I feel like you reeeeeally shouldn't be bleeding. I thought that was a problem caused by lack of lube? Because the friction caused tearing? So, if you're careful, I should think that you wouldn't bleed. There might well be pain, I wouldn't know--but if you're bleeding, to me that seems like a fairly obvious sign that something is wrong and needs to be corrected.

Also: well, if by pain you mean something that's causing severe bleeding, then that might not turn into pleasure. But pain can also be quite different--in the 'first time for women' thread, many posters have said that there was initial discomfort, but that once their bodies adjusted, it was pleasureable. And while those who say they had a super-awesome-fantastic first time were certainly in the minority, they WERE there.

I should think that if you have a caring, careful partner, who is experienced, they could make your first time at least not painful, and probably pleasurable as well. I mean, I should hope they'd at least TRY.

Once again, I wouldn't really know, since I've never had sex and have no interest in doing so, but I DO have some characters who are rather interested in having sex, so it's an issue of interest for me.

Um, yeah, you really shouldn't be bleeding. First time or not. If you do, you're definitely doing it wrong. Get a better partner and start recognizing your body's signs of "HEY! WRONG HERE!!"

I must say I already knew all the things put on the first post, but I must agree with everyone else on the point that WERE NOT writing about real life. I don't know about others, but I read stories so I can get away from real life for awhile. There should be some realistic stories and I understand why people would want them, but I'm assuming most people don't (maybe I'm wrong and feel free to correct me if I am). I bothers me that people can be so upset about it. We're not trying to supposefully upset gay men or women, but we get enjoyment out of writing too and why should we have to conform to only the realistic??? I'd be bored out of my mind reading most of that. Real life isn't interesting most of the time. I don't know I feel offended as a writer that you would say that though I don't think you're trying to do that. Just realize the author's point of view before you do something like that. I'll keep your comment in mind next time though. :) I don't write stories like that really anyway. there's a little bit, but I couldn't help myself. :)

Asa gay male it terribly annoys me when writer's put gays into stereotypes. I am also slightly disturbed that some females write about gay males and their issues, seeing as females will never understand what gay guys have to go through. I feel the coming out stage and feeling accepted is something that only will sound realistic if it is coming from someone who had to deal with it. And it's true.. I feel like people who are confident/outgoing are bottoms in bed and vice versa.. it's really weird haha.

As a queer female, I do know quite a bit about the joys and pains of Coming Out (like the fact that it never ends, there's always another level of Out to go through, and that as soon as people know this one thing about you, they immediately attach a lot of other preconceived notions to you that are generally way off base). Please don't say that *females* can't understand any of that. Also, as writers, whether male or female, queer or straight, we're often trying to understand and portray something we haven't experienced directly; otherwise, every single character we write would be exactly the same. And sometimes we're making something up that doesn't exist at all, like unicorns or wizards, or worlds where same-sex love is as perfectly normal as any other kind.

And as far as not liking to read stereotypes about your gender and sexual orientation: welcome to the world of women. Now you know how it feels to read about all the wonderful, offensive, stereotypical females men have been writing about since the dawn of literacy.

I'm sorry, I really don't mean to sound so snarky about this. I really do understand why gay men would find it disturbing and baffling when women write about characters who, well, seem like gay men but really aren't. I feel quite the same when people write about s/m fantasies when they have no real-life knowledge of the realities of s/m relationships, and let's not even talk about the straight male fantasies about lesbians.

That's why, on the one hand, I know exactly how disturbing it must be for you to read stuff like yaoi stories, and yet on the other hand, I can only sympathize so much because, trust me, you are not the only one who's felt this way!

As for the seme/uke roles: Back when I was first coming out and reading everything I could get my hands on (not much available at the time, and even less accurate information about lesbians or about bisexuality) I first read about the bottom-in-bed switch - I believe it was mentioned by Quentin Crisp in "The Naked Civil Servant" - and I've kept it in mind ever since then. ^_^

I can certainly sympathize with a dislike of stereotypes--I HATE seeing stereotypes of, well, stuff that I am (which does not include being a gay man--I'm a girl--but there are stereotypes for every group, I suppose). But, with that said--

I don't see why it bothers you that some women write about gay men. I'm a woman, and some of the characters I write are men. Some are gay, some are straight, some are neither, but the bottom line is--I'm not a man. I never have been and never will be. So, on some level, I will never REALLY understand what it's like to be a man. But if I wrote only female characters, that would really suck.

Also, I'm an asexual. However, the vast majority of the characters I write are sexuals (I have one asexual, possibly two--the jury's still out on Lady Anika...*laughs*). After all, asexuality is less common (as far as I know) than sexuality. So, it wouldn't make sense for ALL of my characters to be asexuals. However, as an asexual, on some level I will never REALLY understand what sexuals go through and how they feel. But I still write about them.

What I'm saying is, a writer can't write ONLY about characters who have traits that they themselves have. For one thing, there would be a whole lot less romance novels in the world, since you wouldn't have any male/female romance--for that to happen, either a woman is writing about at least one man, or a man is writing about at least one woman.

It's true that people who are not members of a certain group will never fully understand what it means to be part of that group. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't try. That's the only way that understanding will spread.

Also, it makes for much more interesting novels. ^__^

I know there are plenty of people that hate their group being stereotyped. But.... I do have to point out there are plenty that fit the stereotype. I spend a lot of time around those in the glbtq community, both in college and when I volunteer. Granted, I have never met a gay male with an "s" only lisp. I have, however, met gay boys that their voice pitches up when they get excitied. (Debaters also do this, so in part it has to do with speaking fast.) In the teen group, there are some rather "fem" boys. Or as one of the more masculine ones put it "they act like they have a vagina." I don't know if it's that drastic, but sometimes it seems that they do it in order to display their sexuality. It's more difficult, it seems, to meet someone if they think you might be straight.

As for women writing gay stories - I do just that and yet I don't think that because of my gender (or my orientation) that I can't write from their perspective and even be realistic.

A fantasy character walks into a bar sees an elf, a dwarf, a couple of ogres, a blacksmith, a bard, a monk and last but not least, a gay couple in the corner. There's a cat on the bar, and a barman is passing a frothing tankard to a snard.

Stereotypes are not a bad thing, they are freaking required. Not just for writing but for any form of communication. But writing most of all. If I had to explain all the above nouns to you how long would that passage have been, just to detail in all the shared nuances of group understanding we have of them? About each one, you could easily spend an entire nano's worth of work. They are all words to conjure with. And even then, you would be using other nouns to describe them. If I describe the elf having a bow, you presume an elven bow unless I say different. You don't assume a riding bow, and probably not a longbow. You're most likely imagining something just a little bit special. 'Cos it's Elven. Yeah.

Nouns are glyphs. Icons. Stereotypes. When I said "blacksmith" did you imagine this or this?

To build a character around an existing glyph, you just need to describe the differences between it, and the universal group-memory of the stereotype. Your dwarf has the long beard, even though she is female; she carries a large axe, though it is made of dwarfbread; she quaffs rather than merely drinking, though her mug is filled with rootbeer...

If you say one of your characters is a dragon, and use that noun consistently, but in all other references and actions, write about the character as if it is a hobbit, then you will have a hard time "selling" the idea to readers. You have to match the stereotype at least halfway.

So when you see a stereotype, and you relate to that stereotype, then whether you are a disabled blacksmith or a macho bottom, ask yourself: how would you define yourself if those stereotypes did not exist?

How did you imagine the cat? How did you imagine the snard?

Erm...Really, I see where the OP is coming from, but I think you're making generalizations. Firstly, let me say I'm a girl. And I am virgin. I have no idea what it's like to be a gay male, but you could never tell that from my novel. (All of my main characters are gay.) As of yet, none of them have displayed any stereotypical characteristics, aside from the one being entirely beautiful, but that's a personal flaw on my part -- I've always loved pretty boys -- and he's very subordinate. But he can be very controlling. @_@ You don't even wanna know about that.

Iunno. Just wanted to say my piece. I learned a bit from your post though, for which I'm glad. My thanks.

~Twitch

You know, you have a good point. The whole 'shared cultural knowledge' thing is certainly useful in communication; if we didn't both know what a cat was, I'd have a hard time telling you about my pet cat Petunia. Also, it wouldn't be nearly as funny when I told you that, although she likes to hunt mice, she doesn't know what to do with them once she catches them. Seriously, she doesn't kill them, she just looks at them and then looks at you like 'well now what are you going to do about this?'

But if we didn't both know that cats typically catch, kill, and eat mice, this might not be an amusing anecdote at all (well, I think it's amusing, the general population may not. ^_^;;;;).

However, there is also harm in stereotypes. For example, oh, say...erm...okay I can't think of many off the top of my head...but, let's say that we have a stereotype of a race of Blue people. People think Blues are very moody and always depressed and pessimistic, and they won't hire Blues because they'd be bad for company moral. But actually, Blues vary just as much as anybody else, and their cosmetic differences do not affect their personalities significantly. So, they are actually just fine as employees. That would be a harmful stereotype.

So, I think what you're referring to are...tropes? The elves and dwarves might be tropes. 'Stereotype' usually has the negative connotation of being a false but commonly held idea.

So, I guess what I'm saying is...I see your point and agree with it, but I also disagree in some ways.

Large age differences between couples are creepy in your opinion. Not everyone would agree with you and certainly not the kind of person who would be willing to engage in such a relationship and such people do exsist.

I'm definitely seeing some confusion between stereotypes and archetypes.

Either way, I was told once by a writer, when I complained about how much I hated hearing the standard advice about writing what you know, "You do write what you know. What do you know better than your own dreams and fantasies." Ultimately, that's what we are all writing. Our audiences are ultimately the people whose dreams and fantasies are similar to our own.

This doesn't mean that all the character I write about are like me, though often some of them are. It means that the stories about them are ones that would appeal to me. It doesn't necessary create a realistic story, what it creates is a moving story. A novel isn't an attempt to portray an exact reality as it is; it's an attempt to portray something from within.

Otherwise it would be National Memoir Writing Month.

Holy generalizations, Batman!

First of all, we're not all utter idiots. Nor are we ignorant. Yes, I enjoy yaoi manga, and yes, I know it's ridiculous. I know real life is not like that. Yes, in many of my stories one of the boys is feminine. I have a fetish for feminine men. So sue me.

Secondly, the most of us write for other women. My gay best friend adores my writing (And he's brutally honest, so I know he's telling the truth), but when I write I write for other girls like me.

Thirdly, don't tell other people what is right and wrong. There is such a thing as 24/7 Master/slave. The rule of BDSM is safe, sane, consensual. Any good Dom or Master knows this.

Fourthly, don't tell other people what to write. Shota creeps the hell out of me as well, but I just don't read it. The most extreme age difference I write is 15/18, and the younger character is at least 16 or 17 before they do anything really sexual.

Finally, if something is true for you doesn't mean it is so for everyone else. End. Of. Story.

In conclusion, us poor (female) gay romance writers are a little tired of defending ourselves every which way. Am I right, girls? Also, phrase advice differently (here meaning politely) and we will happily accept (and even apreciate!) your help.

I know you started this OP with saying you didn't mean any disrespect, but I feel quite disrespected after reading it.

I try very hard not to offend people on the NaNo forums. As an ML and Moderator (in another section) I think it's important to uphold certain standards, but I'm not sure I'll be able to do that in this post - though I will try my hardest.

Let me start by stating that I stepped back for a half hour and ate something to make sure I was actually mad and not just reacting without thinking or due to low blood sugar. I'm back and I'm still livid.

I'm a bisexual female and don't like being told I don't understand what I'm writing about. I might not have had every experience that my characters have experienced, but it doesn't mean I can't use research and my imagination to write about them. I've been known to write about vampires and werelions. I've never grown fangs, hair all over my body or drank blood from and unsuspecting person on the street, but I think I do a pretty fair job at writing those characters due to the amount of work I put into my writing.

Queer men, like every other character and person in the world, are all different. The OP stated that the steroetypes are all wrong. They may be wrong for him, but they are not wrong for everyone. I know quite a few people, gay and straight, who live the dom/sub lifestyle. It's not just a bedroom thing, it's their lives. And while not all of the relationships are healthy, most are because they are loving and caring relationships that are just a bit different from what most people think of as normal. While it may not be how I, or the OP, live our lives, it does happen and it's not as unusual as many people would think or would like to think.

Every relationship, as every person, is different. While some people might fit into certain stereotypes, some don't. Saying that what the media portrays is completely wrong is completely bunk. While many queer guys find those stereotype offensive, many don't. Many think it's funny or know they fall into the stereotype. Some do fall into the traditional male/female rolls, while others don't. But many straight couples don't fall into those rolls. You, the OP, seem to be trying to push different steroetypes on those reading your post.

Sex might or might not be pleasant the first time - it's that way for both males and females. Every human body is built differently. But it doesn't mean a person WILL bleed their first time. That's the same false information that was fed girls in the 50's. It was wrong then and it's wrong now. Like anything sexual, if it's done wrong it can be painful and cause bleeding. And as to pain and pleasure never going hand in hand - go talk to people who are into BDSM and see what they have to say about the matter. A good friend of mine is a sub and used to love for me to brush his hair for him. He liked it rough and just about got off from the pain of me raking the brush through his hair. To say pain and pleasure can't go together just shows your ignorance.

I don't know where the thing about rape turning into love come from. That makes no sense to me and I won't even dignify that with a comment.

I'll agree that large age differences are not always a bad thing and that MOST younger folks can't consent, but that also does not have any bearing on the way you seem to be trying to force people to write. It seems to me that only if things fit into your perameters, then they are right. Your way of looking at things is one way of seeing the world, but not the only way. There are so many things you stated in your post that are simply not true and don't pertain to every gay man. To tell hetero women that their writing is wrong just because you don't agree with is is just perpetuating more stereotypes.

Most, not all but most, erotic fiction is written on a fantasy level. In fantasy the writer can take whatever liberties they might feel like. It's not nonfiction that's being written. It's not actual sex or relationships that are being recorded, but fictionalized ideas about reltionships and/or sex. Every human thinks and feels about things differently and write about them differently. I can't imagine trying to tell anyone that they shouldn't write about anything they feel strongly about, or to tell them that that are wrong for writing something in a certain light. Everyone's writing is a part of who they are and everyone has a right to wrote the way they want to. It might or might not be published, but you at least have the right to put the words down as you see fit. It's your own fiction.

I'm disgusted with people who thing that their way is the only way and that everyone should write the way they think the world is. NaNo is not about setting boundaries on people's writing or telling them what they should write - because it's the way the world is - but letting people write what they want and enjoy the experience of letting the words flow from their hearts and out their fingertips. Posts like this make newbies feel bad about their writing and that they are doing something wrong, and that really irks me.

I am sorry if I have offended anyone with my post, but I could not hold my tongue after the OP. It grated against my sensibilities.

Ken

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"Writing is not necessarily something to be ashamed of, but do it in private and wash your hands afterwards." R Heinlein

Well I was worried I had reacted too harshly in my reply, but given the other replies, I guess I wasn't the only one rankled.

I'll build on the "rape doesn't turn into love" one a little here. I dodged it in my response, with the "but hey it's fantasy" reply.

But even in real life, how often have you seen a show like Cops and seen some woman in a trailer park saying "Don't take Zeke away, he ain't done nothin' wrong! Sure, he came back drunk, crashed th' truck an' broke mah arm by beatin' me half ta death with mah own false leg, then lying ontop of me as I begged him not to and humping twice before throwing up on me and falling asleep pinning me to the ground in the pool of vomit all night... but he's a good man! It's not his fault! You goddamn cops, you leave him alone, or so help me ah'm gonna go git mah gun an'..."

If that ferocious, unconditional death-defying protection isn't a sign of love, then what is?

But it's not just trailer trash who get that kind of dependency on violent partners. Men and women of all walks of life react like that. Alcohol is often a big part, both in helping the aggressor lose his inhibitions enough to become aggressive, and later in excusing the aggressor in the victim's eyes.

Take your typical emo kid. The world, so far as she is concerned, hates her. Only one man gives her attention. He rapes her. Nobody else seems to care. But still... he says he loves her. In her bleak world of blackness, he showers her with flowers, poetry, long walks, shared jokes, brief haikus txt'd in the night. He even offers to marry her, once her belly starts to show. That proves he really loves her, right? He backs her up at school, when the other girls laugh at her for getting fat. When another guy cornered her and tried to grope her, her fiancée broke both his arms. Sure, she still hates what happens at night, and in the woods on those long walks, but... it's not his fault, it's her fault, she should love him more, she should be more obedient, more understanding of his needs. And she could do worse, couldn't she? He's the only one who's ever loved her, the only one who ever will. And the only one, she realises, that she's ever loved.

Take your wealthy aspiring lawyer/politician, once prom queen and leader of the cheerleader team: she has it all. Could have any man she wanted. They fawn at her feet like so many slobbering slugs - they disgust her: she uses the good looking ones and throws them away, always searching for a man more forceful. And one day, she finds him. She had thought him just another sycophant, but once she had him in her home, he had changed completely. And she hid the bruises of her shame with makeup and told herself she would never, ever again... but the next day she is dialling his number again, because more than anything she wants that feeling of submission, of surrender, of abdication of all responsibility. It's not his fault, she tells herself: she drove him to it, he couldn't help himself... and she can do it again.

Or flip the gender roles in those three scenarios. Women beat and rape men too, y'know. But there is a *massive* social stigma against admitting it: men will almost never admit they were raped, and only a little more often admit they are beaten. Generally, men are made to think they should feel grateful for any sex they are given, even if it's by force. So it's hugely under-reported, and ends in relationships relatively often. I doubt it's any better reported in male-male rapes.

Someone wrote that we are writing ourselves and our fantasies, but I didn't: I tried but failed to make my MMC one of these: a beloved rapist that the reader could relate to despite his being so morally abhorrent and alien. I kind of succeeded briefly, for a few paragraphs, but... I think I liked him too much, and put too much of myself into him, so he became just too damn nice, and it failed in the long run. I'll try to bring his abusive streak out more in the edit.

*applauds* Calm, rational, to the point. Nice. And not offensive at all, to my mind.

I honestly don't think it's a sign of love at all. I think it's a sign of fear and brainwashing.

I was a beaten wife who thought I had no place to turn. I never said anything bad about my (now ex) husband until after the fact. When I had broken teeth and he had a broken nose (the first and only time I fought back) I told my mother we'd been wrestling. I was so afraid of being alone. He filled my head with such bullshit that I didn't think anyone would stand by me or believe me. He cut me off from my family and friends to perpetuate the thoughs and feelings he was feeding me. I went almost a year without a phone so he could keep control over me.

Looking back I know it wasn't love that kept me there but the fear he instilled in me and the brainwashing he used to make me believe I was unworthy of any other type of treatment.

Men are actually raped and abused much more than most people know. Most men won't say anything because they are tought to be tough and macho growing up. Men don't go to the ER after being abused because it makes them look weak. If they do end up going they come up with a story. For some reason hospitals are more willing to believe 'I feel down the stairs' from a man than a woman. It's a double standard that is perpetuated in our society. Sad, but true.

I wouldn't say that we're all writing about ourselves and our own fantasies, but more that were writing fantastical stories. I know some people write there own fantasies, but I think more write fantastical in general. It's more enjoyable to read about the more perfect sides of life than the elbows in the eye, rolling over and pulling her hair by accident or when the cat comes in and decides to wash your feet in the heat of the moment. Those things are everyday life, but don't make the best fiction.

I appreciated your first pst and was kind of shocked when you pulled back from your words. I thought what you said at first was very important and well worded. Never feel like you have to take something back unless you've attacked someone and they deserve and appology.

Ken

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"Writing is not necessarily something to be ashamed of, but do it in private and wash your hands afterwards." R Heinlein

*hugs* I'm glad you escaped from that situation in the end...there are far, far too many people who don't.

And I agree--love out of fear or trickery or coercion isn't love, to my mind. Devotion, maybe, but not love.

I have absolutely no problem with the original post. When authors do write of experiences they haven't had, it does help to understand those who have had those experiences.

However, I do take exception to others say you can't write something if you haven't had the experience. That means gay had better only write about gay, lesbian about lesbian, and het about only their own gender because they haven't experienced what the other gender feels. That makes for ridiculously limited writing.

I write gay, lesbian and het. Now clearly there are things in there I've never experienced. But my skill is in writing characters who are in and outside my experience. That is the hallmark of a good author. Weaving a story that readers enjoy. It has little to do with the author's personal experiences. If we were limited to our personal experiences, a great deal of good fiction would never have been written.

No matter the gender or sexual orientation of an author, the readers expect a good tale out of them. And there are many authors who fit the bill quite well. A lot of them are not bound by any kind of 'I can only write what I know' philosophy. To me, I'm an author first and foremost, my gender and sexual orientation have damn little to do with what I actually write.

I'm glad that you got out of that, too :)

I didn't mean to pull back from my opinions (which I stand by): just from my uncalled-for and personal savaging of the original poster, Mittens. I was also hoping to head off any flamey responses from others (whether agreeing or disagreeing with either of us).

I feel it's OK to debate issues civilly, but it's definitely not OK for me to be nasty to someone about their opinions, even if I disagree with them vehemently.

I am sad that Mittens never posted in this thread again, and doesn't even seem to have returned to this most lovely corner of the forums. I worry that it may have been my over-forceful response that caused this.

I'm glad he won NaNo - I'd have felt even worse if he hadn't :)

I think writing only about things we personally experience limits us, and I think if you get down to it, very few writers only write about things they've personally experienced. However, I think when writing something real that we're not personally familiar with, it pays to become familiar with it and try to handle it honestly.

It's true that yaoi, in particular, tends to be very far from real life. However, I think the problem people have with it is that they find the themes themselves offensive. In real life, rape is a violent, degrading act that can have a serious, long-term effect on a person's ability to have good relationships and live a peaceful life in general. So portraying it as something romantic and erotic is going to piss some people off. That doesn't mean you can't write it that way, but be aware that not everyone is going to be able to dismiss it because it's fantasy.

Personally, as a woman, I find the seme/uke dynamic a bit disturbing. Not only is it not really representative of gay couples, but to me, it perpetuates the idea that the "woman" in a relationship (be it an actual woman or a womanly man) is going to be weak and submissive.

As for stereotypes, while some stereotypes can be helpful in fiction, I think the reason why many gay men find the stereotypes in question offensive is because they're generally negative stereotypes. Personally, except in cases of minor background characters who are only in the story for a few paragraphs, I find non-stereotypical characters far more interesting. The only reason to rely on stereotypical characters is to allow the reader to get the message when a lot of detail isn't needed. For instance, the strong, masculine blacksmith works for brief scenes because maybe all you need him for is to show the reader that your character got his horse re-shoed. The reader needs to understand that there was a blacksmith, nothing more. When it's a major character, readers are usually going to be more interested in fleshed-out people.

Stereotypes are very, very annoying, yes. And we'd all like to be politically correct. But I have always felt that there are two things in life in which political correctness has absolutely no place. The first is humor. The second is sexual fantasy.

We are all here to express our personal fantasies. None of these fantasies are universal. Many people will be offended by some of them. But, you know what? Those who are offended by anything in erotica should JUST STOP READING. People have a right to fantasize about anything they fucking please, and write about it, too.

Erotica, like all sexual acts and materials, is in a sense "consensual." By continuing the read, the reader consents to finding out what happens next. It is always in their power to close the book or the window. It is not their right to bitch about how they were offended by someone else's fantasy. Neither is it their right to expect someone to CHANGE their fantasy. It won't happen.

I'm a bisexual female, 18, masochistic, somewhat submissive. For some reason, I am incapable of writing het, or anything, really, aside from rather violent, often non-consensual guy on guy. Why? Because it's what turns me on. I can't change that. It's physically, perhaps I should say physiologically, impossible.

I'm proud of my erotica. I have my niche and within it, I write well. I take pains to have well developed, strongly motivated characters. I research anything I haven't experienced myself. Do I do this to please the politically correct gestapo? No. I do it because I know that the more detailed and 'realistic' seeming my characters and situations, the easier it will be for my reader to enter the fantasy.

As an erotic writer, I am not responsible for pleasing everyone, or even most people, and I am certainly not responsible for: defeating sexism, disproving stereotypes, fighting prejudice, or anything political whatsoever. I am responsible for getting my readers off. Period. End of story.

In short, I write for myself, and for people who like what I like. I'm not writing for feminism, or gay rights, even though I support these movements. Sex and politics just shouldn't mix. Ever. People will always like what they like, and to try and control or change that is an unconscionable violation of personal freedom.

Just my two cents.

Nobody has the right not to have their work criticised, no matter how much right they had to write it in the first place. Ultimately, all a writer can do is write work that they approve of and that will please their target audience, but that doesn't make adverse opinions less valid.

I did have a carefully considered response to this thread, based on the premise that when the majority of literary and artistic depictions of a minority group come from people not of that minority group, there is a problem (cf Eugenides and his charming admission that he did no research into the experiences of the intersexed in writing Middlesex). There is absolutely nothing wrong with writing outside of one's experience, but one ought to take into account the impact of one's writing. When the voices of a particular group, in this case queer men, are ignored, stereotypes perpetuate and negative depictions are reinforced. (To the poster who would have me believe that stereotypes are interchangeable with the definitions of words, I have nothing to say.) I think it is perfectly valid for Mittens to get a bit upset when a large portion of queer men in fiction (at least in nano-world, which is not representative of fiction as a whole) seem to be ill-informed cardboard cut-outs.

However, in re-reading all of the posts here, I've realised that it's completely irrelevant. Most counter-arguments made some mention of writing one's fantasies, kinks, desires, et cetera, and far be it from me or anyone to look down on other people's one-handed reading. It is when art or literature (dodgy words to use on the nano fora from the get-go) enters the public consciousness that it begins to influence it, and forgive me if I think that most of the responders' masterworks will languish on their hard drives and do no harm.

The OP's post was about the realities of gay sex and calling out a few tropes, and it was rejected by the females writing gay male sex because they aren't interested in reality and think their tropes are just as good as reality, thank you very much.

The standard gay man's objection to yaoi is that it objectifies, fetishizes and feminizes gay men. None of the indignant counter-arguments addressed this particular indignity directly. Indirectly, they justified it or ignored it.

How about acknowledging and dissecting the convoluted and contradictory gender issues inherent in the genre?

How about acknowledging that if a woman has the right to poke at potrayals of simpering and pathetic females and call them out when they're just plain obvious examples of objectification and misogyny, then maybe a gay man has the same right--even if it's a genre that you really really like?