[TOPIC] Forensics

I know quite a lot about forensics since i'm looking at it for a career, however your question has stumped me. I'll go through a couple of my books that i have around the house and try to find an answer for you. I'll let you know if i do or if i don't :)

This is what i brought you, This you can keep, This is what i brought you may forget me, I promise to depart, just promise one thing, Kiss my eyes and lay me to sleep ~ Prelude 12/21 (A.F.I.)

There are no databases for dental records that correspond with fingerprints or DNA. For someone to identify a person from their teeth, they must have the dental records from the dead person's dentist.

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2006: Below the Rain - Winner - 50,300
2007: Untitled modern urban fantasy - epic fail - 13,000

No I figured there isn't a database that has all three statistics together, but I'm under the impression there is such a database just for dental records. And in this case the person in question isn't dead, just missing.

Pullman, WA Municipal Liason
Pullman, WA Forum co-Mod

If the person is just missing, what are you using dental records for? There would be nothing to compare to...

Anyway, this may be able to explain better than I did (unless I'm reading your post incorrectly).
http://science.howstuffworks.com/forensic-dentistry.htm

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2006: Below the Rain - Winner - 50,300
2007: Untitled modern urban fantasy - epic fail - 13,000

Because, he's been missing so many decades that he's been presumed dead.

Pullman, WA Municipal Liason
Pullman, WA Forum co-Mod

Some notes from Forensics for Dummies by Dr. P Lyle:

- In the first century AD, Emperor Claudies demanded to see the teeth of his beheaded mistress.
- 1849: victims of the fire at the Vienna Opera House were identified by their teeth
- William the Conqueror bit the wax seals on his letters to prove they were his

There's also mention of Paul Revere and dentures that he made, but I'd check out a history of dentistry for more information since it's a big to-do and they are sure to keep a timeline or history. Also this will probably tell you when it became a formal procedure rather than experimentation, but it might be an interesting idea to set this in a time when it was considered a reliable method for identification.

I'll look at dentistry sites and let you know what I find...hope this helps! :)

1768-1770—Paul Revere places advertisements in a Boston newspaper offering his services as a dentist. In 1776, in the first known case of post—mortem dental forensics, Revere verifies the death of his friend, Dr. Joseph Warren in the Battle of Breed’s Hill, when he identifies the bridge that he constructed for Warren.

1895—Wilhelm Roentgen, a German physicist, discovers the x-ray. In 1896 prominent New Orleans dentist C. Edmond Kells takes the first dental x-ray of a living person in the U.S

Alright, no exact dates, and I've got to get to work...but I included the x-ray because I thought that x-rays make identification easier...but if I remember, Bundy was convicted by a cast of his teeth and not an x-ray. This might be another good starting point though.

from http://www.ada.org/public/resources/history/timeline_19cent.asp

Thanks cross-legged, I've found much the same on google myself. :/ What I'm looking for is information on the history of dental records databases in America and in Germany, and when the first databases were created.

Pullman, WA Municipal Liason
Pullman, WA Forum co-Mod

I was interested in this question, and I searched around in my forensics book, and the person who said that there are no dental databases is right. You'd have to go to the person's dentist and get the records. Also, another person said that if the person were missing, there'd be nothing to match the records with. How are you planning to get around that problem?

2008- The Longest Journey~ Won!

Sorry, I didn't give enough information. The child was missing and eventually presumed dead, and is found at the beginning of the story.

Okay, so let me rephrase my question: In what decade did dentists in America and in Germany start keeping records of their patients' teeth... models, imprints or photographs for the purpose of being able to identify the person in case they're found dead?

Pullman, WA Municipal Liason
Pullman, WA Forum co-Mod

THUMP!

In what decade did dentists in America and in Germany start keeping records of their patients' teeth... models, imprints or photographs for the purpose of being able to identify the person in case they're found dead?

Pullman, WA Municipal Liason
Pullman, WA Forum co-Mod

its not like csi there is no database for everything. Generally if they will have a hunch or other clue then they will find the dentist who is a specialist in odontology to do a comparison. Basically they would need to have an idea of the body they were identifying first. Also you could go for DNA extraction from a tooth or bone section. I have a degree in forensics (also looking for a job atm!) so feel free to PM me with anything.

http://www.joerogers.info

Slight note to those involved in this, ForensicS (with an "s" at the end) refers to speech leagues and debate. When people talk about going to a forensics competition, they're talking about a speech competition, nothing concerning dead bodies.

ForensiC (ending in a "c") is what refers to the dead bodies and science. If you're doing forensic work, you're working with your dead bodies and whatnot.

Not too many people know about this technicality, but that's the politically correct way of things.

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Dreamer of Inescapable Nightmares
ぜつぼした！
And I will look at these scars and shove my despair aside, and forthwidth shall come a grand total of 100,000 words!

ForensiC (ending in a "c") is what refers to the dead bodies and science. If you're doing forensic work, you're working with your dead bodies and whatnot.

Forensic means 'for court', that is to say something pertainign to the legal system. So forensic science is science pertaining to the legal system.

http://www.joerogers.info

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Dreamer of Inescapable Nightmares
ぜつぼした！
And I will look at these scars and shove my despair aside, and forthwidth shall come a grand total of 100,000 words!

Dentists don't keep such records for purposes of identification, but in order to track the progression of their patients' condition and like that. They are private medical records. Usually after a certain time period of inactivity they're put in secure storage, and eventually they are destroyed. (A family member of mine used to work in a dental office. Her responsibilities included maintaining and updating their patient records, and pulling the ones from former patients from the active files.)

November 27th: The Alphasmart I ordered on ebay at the end of September arrived today. : /

What process does a Medical examiner go through when examining a body? Is there an order to things? Or is it more rooting around? >.<;; I'm hung up a lot in the Forensic Science area since I haven't done much mystery writing before. And bless me if I ever try again!

Telling someone you're a writer is like telling them you're an obsessive compulsive bipolar schizophrenic that goes to AA meetings once a week.

Outside --> Inside is the order. Clothing is removed, and they give the body a wash. This stuff is saved for evidence. Then you'd look for obvious COD, like a crushed skull, stake through the heart, etc. Fingernail scrapings can be taken. If there's no apparent COD, then they'll do the Y-incision and start taking out organs. They weigh and measure all that stuff, then take samples for toxicology if needed. It's like a big physical from your doctor, except they look at every part of your body, internally as well as externally. A bunch of stuff you wouldn't believe is necessary, but if it's suspected murder then they get very thorough. They'll also cut the skull and remove the brain for weighing.

If you need an accurate example of this, HBO put out a series called "Autopsy." You might be able to find some episodes on YouTube.

Unless the child was killed shortly after their last dental x-rays, dental records may be of little assistance. Baby teeth, adult teeth and general growth/shifts in the mouth would make comparison more difficult, although a partial match may be possible. (I think this is what you are suggesting happened, just wanted to say something in case.)

As someone else said, they don't keep records for these reasons.

I've read of incidents of dentistry being used to identify bodies in the 1700s and 1800s. These involved people with dental devices in their mouths. Since these were made individually by dentists they dentists could often recognize their own work (and occasionally had even signed it!). In 1776, Paul Revere identified the body of a friend and dental patient who had died the previous year, by the false tooth he had wired into the man's mouth.

American and Germany seem to be neck-and-neck time-wise, re: the use of the x-ray. Wilhelm Röntgen announced in January 1896 that the x-ray could pass through opaque living tissue to take pictures of bone (he had made the discovery the previous year). The discovery was made in Wurtzbürg, Germany. There are claims that the first dental x-ray was taken in New Orleans and in Braunschweig, although the distinction may be between the first radiographs taken of teeth (the latter) and the first taken by a dentist for medical use (the former).

Unfortunately there is a lot more written about when these things were pioneered, than about when they became common practice, but you can always make your dentist and detectives leader in their respective fields depending how early you want to set the story.