Terms of Service (For Cybele)

Clinical discussions of sex and terminology are just fine.

However, I would like it if everyone was mindful when posting excerpts to leave out the truly naughty bits. This is erotica after all, not porn.

I think that if you want to get comments on excerpts or passages that are more than titillating your best bet is to post them off site and then posting a link here. This serves two purposes. One, it protects the site from being inundated by a bunch of non-wrimos coming by to read the stuff. Second, it protects your work. (Quite often in the off-season members of this forum have second thoughts about posting here and ask me to remove their excerpts or posts.)

The two examples you proposed sound just fine to me. (Unless folks are able to come up with some more inventive answers than I'm able to conjure at this hour.)

Does that help?

Yes, thank you!

That was a really good question, and before I had time think about changing my topic, we had an answer! I was thinking I would have to resort to talking about the benefits of douches and enemas (which there are many).

And to answer the other two questions: (1) painful, and (2) very carefully.

I think you can reasonably say that the most explicit material is left out as minors can access this site and most would respect this. Anyone can view this forum without even signing in. I would not say this would, or should, be a concern if only adults could access this site. However some of the comments are on very shaky ground.

Cybele>However, I would like it if everyone was mindful when posting excerpts to leave out the truly naughty bits.

“Naughty” is in the eye of the beholder, not necessarily the eye of the writer. Some think nothing is naughty at all. Certainly what you think is naughty isn’t necessarily naughty to me.

Cybele> This is erotica after all, not porn.

As a member of the men’s movement one of the annoying things is that lesbians will often define their sexually explicit material as erotica but men’s material (even where it contains woman on woman action) as pornography. In other words, what I like is erotica; what you like is porn and erotica is OK and porn is not OK. Since the UK trial of Lady Chatterley’s Lover in 1960, some 47 years ago, sexually explicit material has been available. This now includes gay sex and sadomasochistic sex. Up until 1960 talking about sex is anything but the vaguest way was considered pornographic and was illegal. Earlier than that books for women about contraception were attacked as pornographic. In effect from 1960 porn only seems to mean what I don’t like.

Terms of Service> Anyone posting abusive, sexually explicit, hateful, or threatening material (or any other stuff that may violate any applicable laws)

These days to suggest that anything sexually explicit is illegal is wrong, unless you go to some extreme countries, e.g. Islamic states. Since this is an international site are we to apply the lowest common denominator. This would mean almost no reference, even implicit, to sex and nothing at all about gay sex or sadomasochistic sex. Are you applying these laws fully?

http://www.lectlaw.com/tsex.htm
says
Cats and dogs must have a permit to have sex in Ventura County, CA.
Fairbanks, AK, does not allow moose to have sex on city streets.

http://www.10zenmonkeys.com/2006/12/28/world-sex-laws/
says
Adultery is punishable by stoning to death in Somalia
The Age of Consent is 13 in Spain, Nigeria, or Japan. 14 in a number of other countries
Sex outside of marriage is still illegal in Saudi Arabia
The penalty for masturbation in Indonesia is decapitation.

Are you sure you’re properly applying all these laws? And all the others in the World.
I expect to include material in my novel that rivals Lady’s Chatterley’s Lover, (or even surpasses it!) but what anyone thinks of it is their interpretation, not fact. As I said at the beginning I think you can reasonably say that the most explicit material is left out as minors can access this site and most would respect this, but don’t tell me that you do erotica and I do porn and don’t tell me what I do is illegal. I will dispute both of these.

----
Raymond Cuttill
NaNoEdMo.Net - National Novel Editing Month
My NaNoWriMo Blog
2007 - The Sex World War (SciFi/Adult)
Samuel Goldwyn once said “We want a story that starts out with an earthquake and works its way up to a climax". This is the book of the film. The film will be made later. If you're from Hollywood and want to make the film, give me a call.
P.S. I resisted the temptation to call it “From Here To Maternity“
2006 (winner) - SlaveWorld
2005 (winner) - Time Enough For Hate
2004 - NoMen Inc.

Isn't that a little extreme, Raymond? I've NEVER considered erotica 'women's writing' and porn 'men's writing'. There's a fine line between porn and erotica and it doesn't matter WHO writes it - I think what matters is the end result the writer is striving for that makes the distinction.

What's the big deal with listing all those laws? Do you really WANT 12-year-olds reading explicit excerpts? Isn't it reasonable to want to protect youth from reading such material until they grow into the maturity for it? THAT is all that is asked, and I find it perfectly reasonable.

If you go to someone's house and they ask you to take off your shoes upon entering, you do so - or you leave. If they ask you to dress modestly because they have young children - you do so, or you leave. It's courtesty. This site isn't our own; we've been granted the priviledge, not the right, to write together here. So I don't understand, Raymond, why you're so upset. Neither gender, no sexuality has been attacked. We've just been asked to have a degree of courtesy to respect this site being open to the public of all ages.

Raymond - You have it right ... I'm asking people to be mindful that there is a huge variety of people accessing the site and this forum. I think the fairest thing to do is for people to provide disclaimers on their own material when it goes beyond clinical discussions of sexual matters. I believe that people sophisticated and disciplined enough to write novels in 30 days should be able to click away from a thread that they find steps out of their comfort zone.

I am leaving it to each participant's judgment at this moment as to what to post on the site.

You are free (and encouraged) to write whatever you wish for your novels.

Thanks for your reply. I may well post stuff here from my novel. I will be mindful that this is an open site.

----
Raymond Cuttill (aka iPhoneiscool)
NaNoEdMo.Net - National Novel Editing Month
Email articles @ nanoedmo.net (remove spaces) for a reminder.
My NaNoWriMo Blog
2007 - The Sex World War (SciFi/Adult)
Samuel Goldwyn once said “We want a story that starts out with an earthquake and works its way up to a climax". This is the book of the film. The film will be made later. If you're from Hollywood and want to make the film, give me a call.
P.S. I resisted the temptation to call it “From Here To Maternity“
2006 (winner) - SlaveWorld
2005 (winner) - Time Enough For Hate
2004 - NoMen Inc.

I'm not sure you understood my point. I stated that I am willing to be mindful of the fact that this is an open site. I was however objecting to the idea that there is something called erotica and something else called porn. Whether or not you hold such a view, I have definitely encountered the view that what men watch/read in porn (aka dirty) whereas what lesbians watch/read is erotica (hence not porn and so not dirty). My point is that since trials like Lady Chatterley's Lover almost nothing is pornographic in the West. Up until that point explicit sexual stories were considered pornographic and pornography was illegal. With the exception of child pornography, there is no legal definition of pornography that I know of in the Western world. Any sexual act between adults can be depicted. Therefore what is called pornography is a matter of opinion. Some will call any depiction of sex pornography, some will call depictions of gay sex pornography, some will call depictions of sado-masochistic sex pornography and some will say none of it is pornography. There is a joke is Douglas Adam's Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy whether the chars go on a trip in an infinite improbability drive and exist in a state of fluid reality for a time. When the ship lands an announcer says "We have returned to normality. Anything you can't cope with is your own problem". In other words, pornography is whatever anyone thinks is pornography. I would argue this means that for practical purposes there is no pornography.

As for the reference to various laws about sex, I was trying to point out that there are all sorts of weird laws about sex. It may not be the case that writing about these acts is illegal, although in some cases it maybe, but generally sexually explicit material is not illegal in the West but an international site would have to take into account all the laws in all countries.

----
Raymond Cuttill (aka iPhoneiscool)
NaNoEdMo.Net - National Novel Editing Month
Email articles @ nanoedmo.net (remove spaces) for a reminder.
My NaNoWriMo Blog
2007 - The Sex World War (SciFi/Adult)
Samuel Goldwyn once said “We want a story that starts out with an earthquake and works its way up to a climax". This is the book of the film. The film will be made later. If you're from Hollywood and want to make the film, give me a call.
P.S. I resisted the temptation to call it “From Here To Maternity“
2006 (winner) - SlaveWorld
2005 (winner) - Time Enough For Hate
2004 - NoMen Inc.

"I have definitely encountered the view that what men watch/read in porn (aka dirty) whereas what lesbians watch/read is erotica (hence not porn and so not dirty)."

What, so straight women can't read/watch erotica? How disappointing...

Also: as far as I can see, the terms of service says nothing about porn vs. erotica. It just says, nothing 'sexually explicit'. So...doesn't that just mean 'let's not post graphic stuff'? Therefore, neither porn NOR erotica is a-okay for posting--it's all about whether the content is graphic or not. And porn and erotica can both get pretty graphic.

As for me...well, I suppose if minors are writing erotica, they've already seen some pretty graphic stuff. But one can wander into a genre forum, as well. *shrugs*

I was the one who made the porn/erotica comment above. The big thing is that you can write anything you want and call it anything you want. Some erotica novels may have distinct passages that taken out of context would certainly be considered pornographic ... it's the whole creation in the end that is erotic. Nothin' wrong with that. (The same thing can be said in novels that contain violent scenes that work within the whole but can be especially disturbing without the framing of the rest of the work.)

I'm happy that we're having the discussion about this topic.

If you ever feel that something is treading the line, put a disclaimer on it so people will know before clicking on the topic. And of course I'm always here to clear up any confusion.

I'm hoping we'll have some better ways in the future versions of the site to allow people a little more latitude in this area.
______________
Forums Moderator
(I have a life outside of this ... really)

Hi Cybele,

I'll talk about alternatives later when I have more time (It's 1:45am) but for now I just wanted to say that as someone on the Patrick Holford Low Glycemic Load Diet I find your candyblog site pornographic! :-)
----
Raymond Cuttill (aka iPhoneiscool)
NaNoEdMo.Net - National Novel Editing Month
Email articles @ nanoedmo.net (remove spaces) for a reminder.
My NaNoWriMo Blog
2007 - The Sex World War (SciFi/Adult)
Samuel Goldwyn once said “We want a story that starts out with an earthquake and works its way up to a climax". This is the book of the film. The film will be made later. If you're from Hollywood and want to make the film, give me a call.
P.S. I resisted the temptation to call it “From Here To Maternity“
2006 (winner) - SlaveWorld
2005 (winner) - Time Enough For Hate
2004 - NoMen Inc.

-eyeroll-

"...full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."

My question was simple enough; so was the original answer.

To be, or not to be: that is the question whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, or to take arms against a sea of troubles, and by opposing end them?
Complicated this Shakespeare. Perhaps too complicated for simple folk.
If you think leaving out the naughty bits is a sufficient answer then that’s up to you. Let’s not consider whether naughty bits means different things to different people, let alone whether or not there is any such thing as naughty bits. Since presumably we both believe in free speech then I can have this discussion and you can have your opinion of it.

Anyway, I’ve been rather busy or I would have replied sooner. I was interested in what we can write in general (I don’t mean on this site). It seems to me that anything between adults is allowed. Clearly anything illegal is excluded, most obviously child pornography is excluded, but anything between adults is acceptable. That would mean that anyone can write about any sexual act, but whilst it might not be to my taste that sexual writing is not in any way inherently wrong. So ultimately it’s each to his own, but there’s room for everyone. So there’s my 2 cents worth. If it bores someone, that’s OK. As long as it doesn’t bore me I’ll continue to write it.

----
Raymond Cuttill (aka iPhoneiscool)
NaNoEdMo.Net - National Novel Editing Month
Email articles @ nanoedmo.net (remove spaces) for a reminder.
My NaNoWriMo Blog
2007 - The Sex World War (SciFi/Adult)
Samuel Goldwyn once said “We want a story that starts out with an earthquake and works its way up to a climax". This is the book of the film. The film will be made later. If you're from Hollywood and want to make the film, give me a call.
P.S. I resisted the temptation to call it “From Here To Maternity“
2006 (winner) - SlaveWorld
2005 (winner) - Time Enough For Hate
2004 - NoMen Inc.

Oooo, insulting...although I'm not sure who it was directed at.

Another interesting thing about Shakespeare: his work is just FULL of innuendo, sex, smut, naughty bits, or whatever you want to call it. Apparently the Elizabetheans were really into that.

Well, as far as I see it, the terms of service have nothing to do with what we write--just with what we post here. So, we can all write whatever we want--we just have to be careful not to post anything that we don't want kids reading. I guess.

As far as that goes I know a far older book that's just full of naughty bits here and there. Adultry, incest, murder, plain sex, and so forth. The name of this book? The Bible. There are plenty of naughty bits to be found in its pages. In fact the "song of Solomon" was once the subject of an legal battle. A man had printed the text and sent it out as a tract of some sort. He was charged (as I remember it)with obsenity believe it or not.

So if we think our post might be too explicit would getting replies via PM be acceptable Cybele? I mean would that be considered offsite?

Well, the Song of Solomen is basically about these two people having sex. They meet, they want to have sex, but one goes off somewhere and the other has to find him, they finally have sex, etc. With lots of pretty language.

This thread was stickied here to the top of the forum to help participants understand the Terms and Conditions for the NaNoWriMo.org forums.

I fully admit that sex has a long history in literature and legal battles over what can and cannot be published/distributed.

If you have questions about what you may post in the forums, feel free to discuss them here.

If you would like to discuss other things related to the history of erotic literature, please start a new thread, I'd like to keep things on topic so that they are clear.

Sorry Cybele. I honestly didn't realize we'd strayed so far from topic. Forums are naughty at that aren't they? On that note do PM's to our e-mail through NaNoWriMo count as offsite? I mean if we have a question that would be too explicit to receive an answer to it here on the board itself?

Blindly sending out explicit excerpts to someone you saw in this forum who did not expressly request them in a thread or via the NaNoMail system could be considered harassment. (Even blindly sending on non-explicit excerpts is considered tacky.)

For those who are requesting information or feedback, it might be nice to state in the thread whether or not you're willing to get a NaNoMail message in response to your query (so that you don't have to go through that process of "would you like an answer via NaNoMail?" ... "Yes" ... "Okay, here's my answer").

What do you mean "in general"?

Do you mean "for the NaNoWriMo story"? There is no limitation on content, so far as I can see. The rules state a novel is a "lengthy work of fiction" and that screenplays, shared works, works begun before the deadline don't count. But no constraints on content. My own will contain many illegal acts. It's awfully hard to have "bad guys" without them. There will be rape, abuse of children, animals and appliances (given extremely loose definitions of each of the three), and many other scurrulous topics. So sue me.

Do you mean "in order to get the novel published by any reasonable publisher"? Books in the "child-abuse-survivor" genre that is all the rage by supermarket checkouts lately (a fad started by "A child called it") can include incredibly graphical descriptions of child abuse. The Marquis de Sade's "Lusts of the Libertines" itemises distilled filth of the most astonishing kinds; and yet these get published. "The Romance of Lust" is published by Wordsworth classics! If you write well, and the "badness" serves a purpose deeper than mere tittilation, then it should be publishable by someone, somewhere.

Or do you mean "In general on these forums?" In which case "not sexually graphic: technical descriptions OK" is probably a fine enough line to draw.

If you have questions about what you may post in the forums, feel free to discuss them here.

If you would like to discuss other things related to the history literature, erotic or not, please start a new thread, I'd like to keep things on topic so that they are clear.