Noir detective story

It is true that most hardboiled detective stories are told in the 1st person, but you do see more hardboiled stories these days in 3rd person limited. There certainly isn't a rule. I'd just keep the POV very limited, and also limit myself to only 3 or 4 POV characters, with the main character getting the vast majority of the POV time.

FWIW, I'm writing a noir (not a hardboiled) this November, and I'll be narrating in the third person (limited). We'll see how it goes.
Tony

A question in your nerves is lit
Yet you know there is no answer fit to satisfy
Insure you not to quit
To keep it in your mind and not fergit
That it is not he or she or them or it
That you belong to.
--It's Alright Ma (I'm Only Bleeding), Bob Dylan

I think I'll be doing a first-person story as well. I love being able to discover the mystery along with my protagonist. .....I just have to stay in a consistent voice.... How much pre-work are you doing? I've got my three main characters (still need to flesh out specifics with them) as well as a really convoluted plot that I'm sure will take me into places from which I'll have no idea how to escape.

Can't wait!

; )

We are such stuff
As dreams are made on and our little life
Is rounded with a sleep..."

-- Tempest (IV, i, 156-157)

NANOWRIMO '07: Strings (20,000 words)
SCRENZY '08: Bonedust

I'm curious as to what you mean by stating that you are writing a "noir" story this November, as opposed to a "hardboiled" story, because I've always heard of those two terms being used interchangeably in everything I've read about the genre as a whole.

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I kill where I please because it is all mine."
------------------------------------------Ted Hughes

I'm going to go with 1st person. I like the idea of the limited vision of the narrator plus putting my readers into the life of the protagonist.

I started to write a clever, witty reply to this thread, but I got carried away. It still ended up pretty funny. If you want to read it I posted it on one of my blogs:

http://itspeopledammit.wordpress.com/2007/10/02/a-new-noir/

If you're familiar with "The Maltese Falcon" and other works by Daschel Hammond (I believe that's how the author's name is spelled), that's the epitome of written Noir. Frank Miller's "Sin City" has a very Noir feel to it, namely in the way that all the stories are told from the point of view of the protagonist. All of whom seem to be more anti-heroes than anything else. Events drag them into action but they all realize that if they don't do it, nobody else will. A Noir piece is a fascinating piece of work in the mystery genre, really. In a typical Noir setting you have the tough-as-nails detective, which can be a cop or a private eye, and then you have "all the usual suspects." The femme fatale, the down-and-out writer, the jealous husband, the corrupt policeman, intrepid claims-adjusters, greedy buisnessmen, etc., etc., ad nauseum. So you've got your determined detective and his lineup of suspects, and a crime, usually murder. Throw in some key confessions, both willing and coerced, a shootout or two, and a few good fist fights, and you've got a Noir.

Now, my mother suggested taking my protagonist and making him the antithesis of your typical Noir protagonist and throw him in the ring with caricatures of "all the usual suspects" and see what happens. Which I might do, but I'm not sure yet. Now, mind you, 98% of the time, the guilty party is the most clean-cut man of the bunch, the one who has no obvious motive until you really start digging. Which, when you point them out, they confess and attempt to kill the protagonist. I'm going into the other 2% of the genre where it's not the clean-cut man, but someone else.

And I think I just got a plot idea and a title... *grin*

"That which yields is not always weak, choose your victories wisely." --Hyacinthe, Kushiel's Dart, Jacqueline Carrey

In his interview with The Onion, William Gibson, author of the very noir-esque science fiction novel NEUROMANCER and its sequels, said, "Actually, *noir*--I was taught in college--is a kind of baroque pop version of literary naturalism." Literary naturalism, of course, refers to a kind of Darwinian perspective on life that says that your heredity and social environment decide your character, and therefore your destiny.

What this has to do with noir is all those stories you've read or heard where the guy, otherwise a fairly normal, okay individual, gets sucked into some twisted melodrama by a femme fatale--in Spanish that's "mala mujer," or wicked woman. So anyways, it's the sort of DOUBLE INDEMNITY or POSTMAN ALWAYS RINGS TWICE type tale (Cain was its master); other writers who did this kind of thing notably include Gil Brewer, Charles Williams, Cornell Woolrich, and David Goodis. (Writer Ed Gorman said of Goodis, "He doesn't write novels. He writes suicide notes.")

Now *that's* noir. Hardboiled is more about the trappings, I'd say, and the attitude. MALTESE FALCON is perfect hardboiled. Mickey Spillane was hardboiled.

Don

"She looked hot enough to catch fire, but too lazy to do anything but just lie there and smoke."
--Gil Brewer, THE VENGEFUL VIRGIN

The term 'noir' in my opinion is one of the most misused terms in pop culture. And it probably isn't very productive to get into a debate about the label. It certainly doesn't have anything to do with quality, as I love both forms. The best illustration of "my" idea of noir can probably easiest be illustrated as such:

Maltese Falcon= hardboiled
Double Indemnity = noir

Big Sleep= hardboiled
Out of the Past= noir

Murder, My Sweet= hardboiled
Sunset Boulevard= noir

In short, for me, noir is a story about a main character's corruption and ultimate destruction. The main character is often a normal guy (or low-level grifter type) whose life is sent out of control...often his initial descent is beyond his control, but his ensuing actions/reactions just makes things worse for him. The conclusion is seldom redemptive, and if it is...it can only be said to be " a little better" than a very bad alternative - like "Nightmare Alley" when Tyrone Powers character is reunited with his wife, but only after becoming the insane "geek".

Hardboiled detective stories, again my opinion, were (and still are) alternatives to the classical mystery. They're grittier, darker. And there's no denying that they were sort of noir in it's infancy. These darker stories were sort of the jumping off point for guys like Cain and Woolridge. Chandler and Hammet are of course the gods of the hardboiled detective stories. The heroes in these books dealt with the "down these mean streets must walk a man who isn't really mean himself" theme. The hero in a hard boiled story is hit with a lot, but he keeps picking himself up, and the end he is a hero. There's nothing really heroic about the noir hero.

Those, of course, are very narrow definitions, and it ignores things like style, imagery, etc. And then there's also the point that perhaps "Out of the Past" is both hardboiled and noir. I am aware that all of the films I list as "hardboiled" above, are often termed noir and marketed as such, but I think most would agree that the subject matter is different than the films I list as noir. These labels of course don't really matter all that much...a broader definition of noir or hardboiled is fine. As for what I meant as it applies to my story:

I'm writing about a deadbeat dad that hitchikes to Key West to see his son pitch against the Cuban National Team. The journey which he intends to be his opportunity to reconnect with his estranged son, will instead be a descent into hell, and resolves itself badly (though I do intend a very dim glimmer of hope in the conclusion). So you see, not very Sam Spade or Phillip Marlowe like at all. But perhaps similar to "Detour" - the epitome of film noir.

A question in your nerves is lit
Yet you know there is no answer fit to satisfy
Insure you not to quit
To keep it in your mind and not fergit
That it is not he or she or them or it
That you belong to.
--It's Alright Ma (I'm Only Bleeding), Bob Dylan

You said it better than me, Don. And you managed to not mispell Cornell Woolrich's name. :)

Tony

A question in your nerves is lit
Yet you know there is no answer fit to satisfy
Insure you not to quit
To keep it in your mind and not fergit
That it is not he or she or them or it
That you belong to.
--It's Alright Ma (I'm Only Bleeding), Bob Dylan

I'm going noir too. I find that watching old Humphrey Bogart movies helps get me get into character. And not just Maltese Falcon either. Something about his voice or his lines. It really sparks something for me.

---------------
VictoriaPL

I suppose it's more "hardboiled" than "noir" but really, Noir covers the genre as a whole. Then you get into more sub-genres from there.

Also, my murder weapon is now a spoon.

"That which yields is not always weak, choose your victories wisely." --Hyacinthe, Kushiel's Dart, Jacqueline Carrey

Was that the spoon mentioned in the DARE thread? I'm too much of a wimp for that. You can always use a grapefruit spoon, they're serrated. Of course, there's just something so poetic about a spoon. Maybe the spoon contains poison - would it then be the weapon or the implement? So intriguing. Good Luck!

---------------
VictoriaPL

The argument for using first person is that it seems natural, but then you can't leave the protagonists p.o.v. If you do a close third person, and need to go away from him/her for a bit, nobody will notice. Otherwise it's *virtually* the same thing. I was going back and forth on the issue myself, but finally have decided to go with third limited.

Don

"She looked hot enough to catch fire, but too lazy to do anything but just lie there and smoke."
--Gil Brewer, THE VENGEFUL VIRGIN

The plot you describe at the end is really good. Lots of luck with it. Do you have a working title yet? My plot is still very fuzzy and has huge gaps, but it's basically about a seduction guru (like the guy who has the reality show) who meets an old fashioned famme fatale who basically cleans his clock. If he survives at all he'll be lucky.

"She looked hot enough to catch fire, but too lazy to do anything but just lie there and smoke."
--Gil Brewer, THE VENGEFUL VIRGIN

Don,

My working title is "27 Down". BTW, much of my guy's descent with involve a spider woman as well. :). I'm trying to decide how much I want to work out in advance.

Tony

A question in your nerves is lit
Yet you know there is no answer fit to satisfy
Insure you not to quit
To keep it in your mind and not fergit
That it is not he or she or them or it
That you belong to.
--It's Alright Ma (I'm Only Bleeding), Bob Dylan

Good title. My working title is SWAMP VIXEN. I have the first quarter or third figured out, and thought I had the end, but have done some rethinking and now I'm kinda unclear about the finale. Anyway, I keep making notes and keep reading similar material to keep my interest in the plot from flagging--Gil Brewer, Charles Williams, Cornell Woolrich, David Goodis.

D.

"She looked hot enough to catch fire, but too lazy to do anything but just lie there and smoke."
--Gil Brewer, THE VENGEFUL VIRGIN

Here is a link to Barry Hannah's article on noir. He teaches a class in noir at Ole Miss. I've read several of his novels, and though he's not my favorite, I think you may find the article of interest in this thread.

http://oxfordamericanmag.com/content.cfm?ArticleID=139&Entry-CurrentIssu...

I've tried writing an anti-noir novel, but it got bogged down after 20,000 words. Perhaps in some distant future, I will revive it.

-rick
http://muse-needed.blogspot.com/
--- SNIP ---
The sliver of moon shed no light on the body as it lay in the gutter oozing blood from two bullet wounds to her back. She'd been dead only a few minutes. Her perfume still haunted the air, but that too would be gone soon. The big man had shot her as casually as a Sunday walk, knocked me dwon, and then fled up the street to a waiting car. The cops would be here in minutes. Apartment lights came on tentatively, as though no one wanted to be first to look outside. To leave now would be cowardly. To stay made me a suspect. But as I stared down at her blond hair fanned out in the street, I wondered why he let me live.

-rick bylina
The only rule: writers write! Everything else is a guideline.
http://muse-needed.blogspot.com/

Oh lawd the pre-work. I'm setting this in an alternate Earth where the timeline has been changed significantly. There will likely be several references to these changes as we go. It's entirely possible that this may be the first in a series with this protagonist. I'm liking him an awful lot, really. So I've got the basic timeline changes for my world, the details of the initial crime in the book, and the start of both a plot and a dramatis personae.

Working Title: Mr. Punch and the Blue Spruce Grove

"That which yields is not always weak, choose your victories wisely." --Hyacinthe, Kushiel's Dart, Jacqueline Carrey

So what would an anti-noir novel be like? In what ways anti- from regular noir? Just curious.

"She looked hot enough to catch fire, but too lazy to do anything but just lie there and smoke."
--Gil Brewer, THE VENGEFUL VIRGIN

In my anti-noir novel, all the action takes place during the day, in winter, in the bitter cold as opposed to the hot, steamy night.

The protagonist is built like an American Gladiator, but is sensitive to pain and eshews violence, but is extremely lucky that most of the bad guys end up hurting themselves through some inventive manner. He is also nauseus at the sight of blood.

The story is populated by some really helpful people (even if their help fails to really help). Examples, the librarian who is turned on by the protags NOT by his hot bod, but by the fact he understands the Dewey decimal numbering system. However, any romantic involvement is crushed. He's a strict Catholic; she's a devout mormon. The district attorney who actually clears roadblocks for the protag, but in doing so alerts the bad guy, which...(you'll have to read the book).

There's more, but I don't reveal all on the first date. ;-)

-rick bylina
The only rule: writers write! Everything else is a guideline.
http://muse-needed.blogspot.com/

So a friend of mine is going to become a character in the book. The obligatory photographer. Also, there is going to be a private detective that is a rival to my protagonist. Horray for multiple antagonists! ^^

Also, the femme fatale is a 16-year-old. And who says all Noir has to be in the middle of summer? Mine is set in October/November-ish.

"That which yields is not always weak, choose your victories wisely." --Hyacinthe, Kushiel's Dart, Jacqueline Carrey