Hey, does anyone know where I can find a site that'll help me with grammar and puntuation. I get a little confused about thing's like:
How often can you use comma's in a sentence!
Double colons, and the one that goes like this >> ;
Rules surrounding speech
etc
Maybe a good, simple (cheap) book?
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And like the sun I shall rise again!... Tomorrow.
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oct. 9, 2008 - 11 42
http://www.englishgrammar101.com/
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Heather Dudley
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oct. 9, 2008 - 11 43
I can't recommend a better book than Strunk & White's Elements of Style. Try a used book store, and don't worry about editions--an old one will be just as good.
FYI, don't use apostrophes in plurals like "things" or "commas."
----------><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><>
2004: Unday: WON -- 2005: Fortune's Fool: WON -- 2007: Hench: WON -- 2008: The Wey of Dolor: WON
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oct. 9, 2008 - 12 08
If you search the guardian website, http://www.guardian.co.uk for their style book you will get a pretty useable style guide, with grammar hints, as well as hints about similar words, etc.
The best printed guide, is Fowler's, first produced by the the great lexicographer, but regularly updated, printed at Oxford. Bill Bryson edits a style guide for (I think) Penguin, it used to be The Penguin Style Guide/Writers Handbook, or some such - it now bears his name.
The older the book, the more likely it is to be fairly traditional, a lot of grammar/style books are very prescriptive if you need to use the language in a certain way though - go for it. Don't let anyone tell you you can't split infinitives, and a sentence with a preposition etc. If you want to, you can.
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oct. 9, 2008 - 12 09
I wouldn't recommend Strunk & White - much of it is completely outdated, and some of it wasn't even good advice at the time. The best usage guide I know is Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of English Usage, which is terrific value for money, if a little cumbersome. For general punctuation & grammar advice you can't go far wrong with Grammar Girl: http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/
----------2007: 28,513 words
2005: 50,916 words
2003: 12,078 words
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http://www.grammardoctor.com/page4.htm
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oct. 10, 2008 - 05 58
Thanks :)
----------And like the sun I shall rise again!... Tomorrow.
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You need to why the rules exist before you know if you should break them or not.
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oct. 10, 2008 - 07 42
Indeed. And if, as frequently happens, the answer is "because some idiot made them up out of whole cloth, and a lot of other idiots have been mindlessly parroting them ever since", then you have not so much a right as a duty to smash them.
(Fowler, for example, is very clear on the split infinitive. He says that there is nothing whatsoever wrong with it.)
"Let me guess. He always cries at weddings, right?"
----------"Och, nay, na at all. 'E always cries at good plot exposition."
- Order of the Stick
"Let me guess. He always cries at weddings, right?"
"Och, nay, na at all. 'E always cries at good plot exposition."
- Order of the Stick
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oct. 10, 2008 - 09 07
(Fowler, for example, is very clear on the split infinitive. He says that there is nothing whatsoever wrong with it.)
Not in my version, he doesn't. The third edition offers up the following somewhat silly advice: 'Avoid splitting infinitives wherever possible, but do not suffer undue remorse if a split infinitive is unavoidable'.
----------2007: 28,513 words
2005: 50,916 words
2003: 12,078 words
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oct. 10, 2008 - 10 37
You need to why the rules exist before you know if you should break them or not.
I would usually agree, but as jim_24601 pointed out, those examples are those of where some nineteenth century prigs tried to import rules from one language to another wholesale.
On issues of style, which infinitive splitting etc are, one just needs to come to an accommodation - and just be consistent in applying whatever rules one wants.
As far as I am concerned "bad" grammar is grammar that does not make sense, or maybe just, is incredibly ugly. It is important to know why grammar rules exist, because it may illustrate where one could risk writing meaningless prose.
E.g. "It's me" - prescriptive grammarians would tell you that "It's me" is bad grammar or ungrammatical - but actually we use it every day.
The questions in the OP where actually about punctuation, some of which is stylistic, but some of which is very important. You must use your apostrophe's correctly, and look carefully to your commas, because they can change the meaning of a sentence.
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oct. 10, 2008 - 14 27
(Fowler, for example, is very clear on the split infinitive. He says that there is nothing whatsoever wrong with it.)
Not in my version, he doesn't. The third edition offers up the following somewhat silly advice: 'Avoid splitting infinitives wherever possible, but do not suffer undue remorse if a split infinitive is unavoidable'.
I confess that I may have been a little free in paraphrasing Mr Fowler's advice. In my "2nd edition, revised" he discusses at some length, and his sympathy is clearly very much with the splitters. As far as advice goes, "We maintain, however, that a real split infinitive, though not desirable in itself, is preferable to either of two things, to real ambiguity, and to patent artificiality" is the best I can extract. Certainly the split infinitive is quite grammatical. My own advice would be something like "do not seek out the split infinitive, but if one should fall naturally into your writing, leave it be."
I think that my point still stands, though. An awful lot of people who speak English perfectly well still seem unable to distinguish grammar from a hole in the ground, and will cheerfully cite perfectly logical and entirely bogus rules in a literary context. So take grammar advice with a pinch of salt, even if it comes from me :)
"Let me guess. He always cries at weddings, right?"
----------"Och, nay, na at all. 'E always cries at good plot exposition."
- Order of the Stick
"Let me guess. He always cries at weddings, right?"
"Och, nay, na at all. 'E always cries at good plot exposition."
- Order of the Stick
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oct. 10, 2008 - 22 25
I couldn't disagree more - Strunk & White is an excellent source to use as reference for your grammar woes.
----------Otherwise Eats, Shoots & Leaves is a great (and kind of fun) guide to punctuation.
Procrastination: Hard work often pays off after time, but laziness always pays off now.
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oct. 11, 2008 - 06 55
Yeah, I'd go with that. There are occasions where splitting the infinitive really does sound better, regardless of whether it's avoidable. And I completely agree with you on usage advice in general.
----------2007: 28,513 words
2005: 50,916 words
2003: 12,078 words
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oct. 11, 2008 - 14 40
Grammar Girl (http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/) has a great podcast, in which she answers grammar questions in a fun, quick, and entertaining way. Her website's definitely worth a look, as well.
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oct. 12, 2008 - 04 48
The Guide to Grammar and Writing is the site of a professor of technical writing. I particularly liked the section on "Paragraph level," even though the overall tone of the site is geared for non-fiction. I also like the drop-down menu on the "Sentence level" that takes you right to colon vs. semi-colon, etc.
Unfortunately, the site owner passed away a few years ago, so while it is still up I don't think it is updated any longer. At one time he would take e-mails, I believe they're archived somewhere on the site.
Probably not a useful reference for NaNo, but... I can't resist making a plug for The Underground Grammarian. I get a chuckle every time I read one his articles, especially where he dissects bits of English bureaucratese.
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oct. 12, 2008 - 20 55
Here's a fabulous guide to good writing by Holy Mother Grammatica
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Heather Dudley
Forums Moderator - Broke? You can still donate!
Couldn't verify your winning novel? Contact the general hotline for help.