Alternate Historical Fiction

Your plot sounds interesting. I wish I could help with some of the historical questions, but my Third Reich knowledge is pretty sparse--though I love the idea of Rommel at the helm. Cheers to a fellow alternate history writer! My MC is also German, but during WWI, and my history diverges much earlier and assumes that certain pre-quantum scientific theories are actually true, so physics is ever-so-slightly different. I suppose it's fantasy, but the fantastic elements are downplayed and I'll still resolutely post in the historical fiction forum:-) Glad to see other AH writers out there!

Personally, if Rommel ruled most of the known world during the 1960s, and I lived during the 1960s, I would abandon my American citizenship and go apply as the janitor in the building he worked in.

Or something. I would try for one of the secretary positions first, but anything would be satisfactory.

Heh. Rommel fangirl.

You have an interesting idea, almost implying that the thing that stopped Hitler's plan to rule the world was essentially Hitler. One thing I am not sure you would consider as well would be something that restores the Kaisers to the throne, which would create a lot of internal and external political stress (potentially to French Revolution levels), since of Kaiser Wilhelm's family did serve the Nazis in promises/hope they would be restored.

I have done a non-nano alt history/fantasy story. Basically alt/Victorian- the alt Great War involving the fictional return of Arthur. My history had George IV's daughter Charlotte living to be queen, then bear a son to have the throne, instead of her cousin Victoria. The son was the Uther figure, his nephew was the Kaiser.

Interesting idea; though my knowledge of World War II completely fails me. But, I'm doing an alternate historical fiction as well (it is also a fantasy). My change is rather drastic, basically Christianity was never really accepted in Europe and was instead replaced by a kind of mesh of pre-Christian polythestic religions. Of course, this will change the entire history of the Western World and leaves a rather large amoun t of "what ifs" and things that are kind of impossible to give a definite answer for, but eh...that is what alternate history is all about. During the "Middle Ages" of the alternate history the major polythestic religion was restrictive in similiar ways to Christianity and different in others; mainly depending on the specifics. But, still around the 13th century on a kind of humanistic Renaissance still occured, though with some obvious differences, and that is where my story takes place...Florence in the late 13th century at the beginning of this history's Italian Renaissance.

I'm doing an alternate history as well! :)

Mine is going to be a WWII piece in which nuclear weapons were never invented, and thus the invasion of Japan was necessary. My particular story is going to be sort of an alternate history version of Thin Red Line, following a few soldiers through the invasion of Japan.

2009: Coronet (working title)
2008: Ghosts of Rosemont - 54,808

I'm continuing work on my alternate history Elizabethan fantasy series, in which Age of Discovery explorers discovered an advanced civilisation in the Americas and came home with their tails between their legs :)

Wow. Anne_Lyle, that really would change the course of history. Boggles my mind to think about it.

Hallows_Eve, thanks for the idea. I'm sure Hitler was the one essential item needed to run the war, but what lost the war were probably bad strategic decisions and attrition. The Allies had superior forces and supplies, and that was enough to wear down Europe and get at Berlin.

RIGHT ON!!
:-)

edited to add: i've been toying with various alternate history ideas. mostly revolving around having Hitler die early on (preferably randomly and ignominiously, say by choking on a cupcake - even funnier since he was supposed to be a health nut) and from there things just get completely insane.
i doubt i'm going to do any serious alternate history this year, though. research is such a b**ch!!

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blithely defying "write what you know" since... oh, well... ever.

Your plot sounds really interesting - good luck working it out!

Because my novel is going to be a re-imagining of the four gospels, some might consider it "alternative history" and other people call it "myth." I think it's a little of both, in that although I am not a Christian, I think many of the characters in the New Testament actually existed in one form or another, it's just that their exploits were greatly overexaggerated/mytholigized. That is, parts of it are true but a lot of it is fiction. But the reason I say I'm writing historical fiction is because I am doing a lot of research, wanting to make Israel as real as possible. Plus, since I consider the Bible "historical fiction," of course my version is historical fiction as well! So I guess you could say I'm doing an alternate history of an alternate history!

www.allysonwhipple.com
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2005-2007: Epic fail!
2008: Winter White Lights (Winner!)
2009: Loveless Gospels

Nice!

I can't comment on your specific alternate history, I'm almost embarrassingly undereducated in that period, but it sounds interesting. I'd definitely go looking for more.

I am not writing alternate history this year (shh) but the NaNo novel I'm rewriting now definitely is. In 323, Alexander the Great died in Babylon, with no successor. His wife was pregnant and his generals all wanted a chief position. His child was born a son and declared co-king with Alexander's half brother, who was not mentally fit to rule, and several generals in turn acted as regent. In 309, young Alexander (named after his father) was 13, and getting close to an age where he could rule -- so he was assassinated.

In my story, he lives. There's the "alternate" in alternate history.

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My NaNo this year isn't alternate historical (it started that way and I ended up with a dystopian sci-fi novel), but my original idea was set in Mejii Restoration-era Japan. What if Japan still went through with westernization, but foreigners weren't exactly given a warm welcome? One of my FMCs is an American girl separated from her parents and forced to live in an okiya with a bunch of other geishas. The FMC is also treated like a slave, expected to pick up after the other girls. Meanwhile, America is furious that Commodore Perry's treaty didn't seem to register with the Japanese government? After sending another American official and having their bargain with Japan turned down, America and Japan engage in war. The novel would span out the two years that the war takes place, and the result of the war would change the history of Japan forever...

What do you guys think? Of course, America would win the war, but I'm thinking of having them be the underdogs first, enduring a massive struggle against the vast Japanese army and navy.

Oh, if only I hadn't decided on another genre! Oh, well. This would be a great idea for next year's NaNo.

NaNo 2009: Life on Mars

-Write to understand, to read, and to grow. So go ahead, write on, and excuse the lame pun.

bill oneill,
I just enlisted today. Your idea is pretty groovy. I'm thinking of doing something similar, but more broader, my premise, the Germans, Japanese, England, France and U.S. build up their fleets, airforces, armies and fortify their overseas territories.

Yes, that's why the story I'm writing is set only a century later (in the 1590s) - the thought of extrapolating that amount of change forwards is daunting! Even so, there have been subtle but pervasive changes to European politics and culture...

Besides, I love first contact stories! (OK, so maybe not first contact as such - but given the slow communications of the era, information spreads exceedingly slowly).

One of the ideas I'm considering is alternate history.

It's set in 1946. The Emperor of Japan never managed to smuggle his surrender out of the palace, so Operation Downfall went through. Allied forces are bogged down in Kyushu, and the Soviets invade from the North, forcing the US army to start Operation Coronet earlier than planned. In the face of all this, a quick victory is desired, and Allied High Command decides to form a team of the best the West has left with the purpose of travelling inland and capturing Hirohito.

Actually, as far as the genocides (plural) were concerned, Hitler was the least of it. The basic design had been floating around for quite a while, and some part of it was an American import.

For extensive detail on American-German exchange of ideas on this subject (OK I shudder to put it that genteelly, given that mass death was the matter of the conversation):

Edwin Black. War on the Weak. This work covers the American eugenics movement from early 20th century to post WW2, including its extensive technical-support relationship with the Hitler regime. Fascinating factoid: the gas chambers were an American suggestion.

See also, by the same author: IBM and the Holocaust. (In short, the Nazi genocides were an early product of the computing revolution. And, further fascinating factoid, the same statistical algorithms were used to round up the Dutch Jews and to intern the Japanese-Americans. The person who designed those algorithms, which were published in the open literature, served a mere 3 years in jail. Many truly sickening details here about who happily turned over data without asking the purpose. IT professionals, take note. I certainly did.

Gotz Aly & Suzanne Heim. Architects of Annihilation: Auschwitz and the logic of destruction. Specific focus is on occupied Poland (aka the Government General) but there are indications of the thinking on the fate of racial & economic 'undesirables' in general. The blood guilt of the demographers, economists, and other social scientists is outlined in great detail, including the postwar influence of many academics who never served ANY jail time post-Nuremberg. The most chilling thing: the basic ideas were never repudiated. And the ambitious version of the grand plans might have included depopulating Eurasia to the Pacific, depending on how spheres of influence worked out vis-a-vis the Japanese Empire. Oh yes, and the Six Million were a pilot project. Considered in light of the ambitious version, Hitler et al accomplished maybe ten percent of what was planned.

Tell all the truth, but tell it slant. (Emily Dickinson)

2009: The Reincarnations of Miss Anne
2008: The Scottish Play, or Fire and Ice

Randomdej...

I'm going to suggest an article that you might find helpful in working through your idea. Wander over to an online magazine entitled Crossed Genres, and look up issue #9, which is a couple months old. In it you will find an article by Walter Hunt, who speaks about how alternate history must work. www.crossedgenres.com

Now, the problem is you must find some plausible way to alter the string of events that we all know actually happened. What one thing can you change that will reverse the outcome? It might be tempting to say that Hitler decided not to declare war on the United States after December 7, 1941. That, at least, would open the door to the idea that the US and Germany didn't fight. However, you'll also have to deal with reversing the results at Stalingrad, which is widely considered to be the turning point in the European theatre. There are a bunch of other things that then "didn't happen" but you'll have to find one that become the hinge that everything swings upon.

If you need some help with the Third Reich, just hollar. If needed, I can point you to literally hundreds of sources for specifics, and help you understand how they interrelate.

GP
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2006 NaNo winner - Berlin, Witnesses at the Crossroads of History, Book I
2007 NaNo winner - Berlin, Witnesses at the Crossroads of History, Book II
2008 NaNo winner - Berlin, Witnesses at the Crossroads of History, Book III
2009 -

Aurora, I think you left out one very significant aspect of this situation.

Europe had periodically gone through periods of antisemitism for centuries. The Jews were alternately welcomed and then vilified, for a variety of reasons. They came to dominate the banking systems because they were forced to do so, being free of the usary restrictions and thus useful to the rules of the day.

However, it was only near the end of the 19th century that being Jewish began to have racial overtones. The idea that Jews were racially different was new, and provided a different reason for picking on them. The "new science" of the times suggested that they, along with the Roma and others, were racially unique, and hence genetically different and inferior, and that distinction became the basis for the actual application of racial purity laws. The same type of thing was promoted to explain the need to cleanse the Fatherland of the Slavs. History, however, shows us that the German society was largely from the same racial background as the "Slavic" countries, but of course Hitler conveniently ignored that.

None of this change what happened, nor explains why and how it was done. However, it does make understanding the "logic" of the Holocaust somewhat easier, since it was much more understandable. Hating a "race" is easier than hating a different religion. Witness the public opinion of the Japanese during World War II. The "Japs" were a different race, and that made things much easier. The concept was used to justify the detention of Japanese Americans on the west coast, even though it flew directly in the face of the Constitution.

GP
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2006 NaNo winner - Berlin, Witnesses at the Crossroads of History, Book I
2007 NaNo winner - Berlin, Witnesses at the Crossroads of History, Book II
2008 NaNo winner - Berlin, Witnesses at the Crossroads of History, Book III
2009 -

And this is where I will add that the Japanese had a racial ideology as well, possibly the most extreme of the war. The Japanese believed they were their own, superior race, harkening back to the days of Yamato. So they excluded everyone who wasn't Japanese. This is why they massacred millions of Chinese, as well as performing a few other genocides here and there. In fact, the Chinese have the highest prison-camp death rate of any people in the war, it being over 99%, with a total of 56 prisoners surviving.

The twentieth-century genocides are a fascinating 'perfect storm' where traditional racial and religious animus meets modern 'scientific precision' and data analysis. In the 1940s and 1950s there was considerable discussion among European intellectuals of what the Nazi definition of 'a Jew' actually meant. From the practical side, it didn't 'mean' anything; it was a set of yes/no checkboxes, things that could be traced in census data or church records (one very important 'digitization' project in Germany post-1933 was the collection of baptismal records going back to 1800, because that was the point at which conversion to Christianity was linked to civil emancipation for the Jews).

Racial definitions encoded in law are always operational, although there's substantial overlap with cultural and ethnic divides. An instructive example is race law in the USA: under Jim Crow (race law respecting African-Americans), one African ancestor made you 'black.' Race law with respect to Native Americans (aka American Indians) specified that insufficient numbers of Native ancestors made you 'white' (or at least not 'Native'). The political agenda, in the first case, was to keep the offspring of slaves in slavery, in the second case, to reduce the number of persons laying claim to land and hunting/fishing rights under treaties.

There's a strong synergy between traditional animus and 'rational' definitions encoded in law and practice; the works I recommended stress the operational and technical side because it's a face of the issue not usually emphasized. But for purposes of propaganda, it's key to draw on traditional tropes (as the critics would say) that have lots of emotion attached. And those tropes are persistent. As an Irish-American attending Catholic parochial school in the USA very much post-war, I remember encountering the ancient anti-Jewish atrocity stories in Lives of the Saints that were sitting on our classroom shelves.

Tell all the truth, but tell it slant. (Emily Dickinson)

2009: The Reincarnations of Miss Anne
2008: The Scottish Play, or Fire and Ice

I agree, but I think the point I was trying to make was that although there were many incidents of race-based attacks, the assault on the Jews (and others such as the Roma) by the Nazi regime was unique in that they started by "creating" the idea that the Jews were a different race, whereas the issues in most other cases were at least "real differences." The Negros in the United States were (clearly) a different race. The Japanese, even those who were American citizens, were equally definable (assuming you believed those things).

In the Pacific war, there was one notable exception, but again it was based upon some traditions from long before. The Japanese were racially hostile to the Koreans, even though it was well known that both populations originally came from a common stock. The Japanese felt that they had elevated themselves by moving to the islands and forming a "better society." However, these were not new ideas and had been in place for many centuries. Your observations regarding the Japanese feelings for the Chinese were also based upon many, many centuries of enmity. Only in Germany was the "racial" perception of the Jews such a recent development.

None of this changes the facts, and racial discrimination was hardly a new idea in any part of the world. Nor did the war change any of that. Eastern Europeans were still considered sub-human by many western Europeans, Jews were still considered "different" and the racial issues elsewhere remained...and still remain, unfortunately.

GP
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2006 NaNo winner - Berlin, Witnesses at the Crossroads of History, Book I
2007 NaNo winner - Berlin, Witnesses at the Crossroads of History, Book II
2008 NaNo winner - Berlin, Witnesses at the Crossroads of History, Book III
2009 -

Though my story has a major science fantasy element (psionics factor heavily), it's also set in a world where a Cold War-style standoff is taking place between Germany and the United States. I'd appreciate any feedback.

The Point Of Divergence occurs in 1917, during the First World War. After the Zimmermann Note becomes public, Germany launches a preemptive strike against the U.S., using U-Boats to lay mines off New York and other Atlantic ports. Several vessels are sunk or heavily damaged, including--thanks to a security breach and errors made by her captain--a brand-new Pennsylvania-class battleship. This has little effect on the outcome of WW1 (there were few naval actions involving battleships after Jutland in 1916), but it does humiliate the U.S. Navy, cost several admirals and public officials their jobs, and (most importantly) helps bring the Age of the Battleship to an early end.

With the dreadnoughts' myth of invincibility shattered, nations around the world begin to heed the advice of air-power proponents like Billy Mitchell, building up massive fleets of ever-more advanced fighters and long-ranged bombers. This triggers a massive aerial arms race, which in turn accelerates the development of associated technologies...completely altering the outcome of the Second World War, which ends with both sides using low-yield nuclear weapons on each other during the Second Invasion of Britain in late 1944. In the U.S. and Canada, panicked civilians flee the cities and industrial centers, wreaking havoc on the economy. In Germany, Hitler's death in the bombing of Berlin touches off a bitter power struggle, plunging the Third Reich into chaos.Severely battered, both sides agree to a cease-fire, and spend the next decade rebuilding.

By the late 1950s--when my story begins--I have the world in a stalemate. Germany still dominates most of Europe, on paper at least. Resistance movements remain active throughout much of the continent, especially in Occupied Russia, quietly supported by "free" nations like the United States. Likewise, Germany supports resistance movements (many led by Japanese holdouts) in various parts of East Asia. Fears of Mutually Assured Destruction (both sides built up massive nuclear arsenals after the war) preclude either side taking overt action against each other: instead, they confine themselves to espionage, black ops, and wars-by-proxy in remote corners of the world, much as the U.S. and U.S.S.R did historically. Germany is paying lip service to the idea of "reform", hoping to coax other nations into economic dealings with it, but few living in the occupied nations are fooled. For its part, the U.S. is slowly rolling back the "emergency" powers that its government took on to quell the disorder that reigned after the nukes fell; even so, it is still quite a bit darker than the nation we know today.

Not the nicest place to live, but an interesting setting for a novel....I hope.

Jews have always been seen as different in the West, religiously as well as racially. For that matter, the Jews have seen themselves as different for a large part of history, too. There is some logic to it, of course, as Judaism is inherited, rather than converted to. So, like the Pacific situation, this had also been brewing for several centuries. It wasn't specifically German, either, and especially Eastern European peoples had some dislike for the Jews.

That's an interesting idea. I'm going to suggest a couple questions, and I'm not begging the issue, just wondering about "things."

It's unclear from your description how you view the outcome of WWI. Personally, I think that any outcome significantly different than the real one won't generate Hitler and might not generate WWII at all. The rise of Nazi power is closely coupled to many elements of distress in post-WWI German society. The abdication of the Kaiser meant the loss of the central power concept, and people weren't really prepared for any form of participatory democracy. The Communists were quite ready to try to take over, and did, in fact, try. The depression, and the stresses from post-war reparations, not to mention the "guilt clause" caused more problems.

If Germany doesn't lose, or if they don't lose with all those results, it's unlikely you get Hitler and the Nazis rising to power. Although I doubt Germany would declare war on the US in 1917 using this thinking, that's not as big a problem as I see it. After all, you're suggesting Alternative History, so that means something different happens.

GP
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2006 NaNo winner - Berlin, Witnesses at the Crossroads of History, Book I
2007 NaNo winner - Berlin, Witnesses at the Crossroads of History, Book II
2008 NaNo winner - Berlin, Witnesses at the Crossroads of History, Book III
2009 -

Your story sounds so interesting!! Alternate history involving WWII issues is something I would fangirl over like crazy....may I add you as a writing buddy?

I can't claim a story idea nearly as awesome as yours, but I'd love to exchange ideas and offer motivational support during November. :)

Disgustingly behind. Still f-ing determined. I WILL get that Createspace offer. I swear by the awesomeness that is NaNoWriMo itself. May my fingers fall off if I do not win.

Rae Lynne

Does Roman Steampunk count as historical fiction? :D

Yes, I'll be writing alternative history this time around, but as i don't have to start writing yet I haven't decided on the what and the where and what happens next.

The first thing that sprang to mind when I read your synopsis was that you were mixing German and Nazi. OK, it's sensitive and all that, but you could maybe get some mileage by working by remembering that Norwegian, Danish, Dutch, French, a few Brits and people from other European countries signed up to the Nazi ideology and served in the Waffen SS. So, would your MC be a German, selling German secrets or someone from any one of dozens of nationalities selling Nazi secrets to an isolated USA - which would probabably include Canada and other places?

Sorry if that sounds as if I'm trying to write your story but, what the hell, we're all letting our imaginations run riot aren't we?

Not that it matters (if it makes a good story, nothing much matters), but, strict alternate history-wise, a Nazi conquest that large in scope is highly unlikely—the Soviets would come back eventually, or at least remain a constant threat to Nazi Europe. The premise also runs contrary to Hitler's real goals—his political goals (neverminding his racial and societal goals—we should all be well-acquainted with them) were simply the domination of Europe, and the acceptance of that fact by Britain and the rest of the world.

Anyway, my story has a few different points of departure from our timeline, a sort of cascading effect, slowly growing from minor changes to more major ones. For the sake of the story, I am using a moderate butterfly net for about fifteen years after the major divergence point.

On the eve of the Battle of Little Bighorn, Lieutenant Colonel George Armstrong Custer's Seventh Cavalry experiences a severe outbreak of the cold among its horses. This, in turn, eliminates the Battle of Little Bighorn, and Custer lives. Meanwhile, Samuel J. Tilden wins the 1876 Presidential election. Finally, in 1878, Custer decisively defeats the Sioux, and goes on to become a national hero. He is elected Governor of Michigan in 1880, is re-elected in 1882, resigns his post early in 1884 to return to the Seventh Cavalry. 1889: an Anglo-American War breaks out over a German-American dispute over the Samoa Islands, with the Seventh Cavalry accidentally igniting the war. After four months, the war is over, but the world has changed dramatically.

Mine is alternate historical fiction...sort of. I think I'll use the cop-out *ahem* I mean plot device of a completely alternate world that merely resembles ours in some way, as I've just decided to do this today, and I only have two days to research.
As of the last hour or so, I'm planning a story set in an approximation of modern society interwoven with stories from a pre-contact North American civilization.
Essentially, in this world there existed a relatively advanced tribal civilization (completely unlike those of the west,) which, upon observing the treatment of other tribes by the "Europeans" opted to hide much of their lives, (writing, ritual, social structure, etc.) for the sake of its preservation.
Over time, this previously egalitarian society became divided, with many of the men actually converting to the ways of the west, while the women generally regarded themselves as tradition-keepers.
My MC will be a young woman who, in her 20s, discovers that her family has been keeping from her a prophecy delivered shortly before her birth, naming her as the savior of her people. Having grown up with one foot in modern "American" skeptical society, and the other immersed deeply in the lore and tradition of her people, she, of course, struggles with this.
Writing it all down, it sounds much more ridiculous.

I will be working on an alternate history piece surrounding the events of 1453 and the crown of Constantine XI. It's going to be daunting, because the politics and figures of the day were so (pardon the pun) Byzantine.

My story is An Alternate Historical Novel taking place during the Tudor Period. In this alternate reality Katherine of Aragon marries twice widowed Sir Thomas Moore as part of her divorce agreement with Henry VIII thus Moore is not executed in 1535 for treason and Katheine does not die in 1536.

By the year 1536, Katherine and Sir Thomas have been happily married and had one daughter together named Elenor. Henry VIII on the other hand does not have a happy ending with Anne Boleyn. The day before Anne's execution Henry is in the midst of a nervous breakdown wth a disasterous engagement to Anne of Cleaves (in this alternate reality Jane Seymour is married to the Duke of Suffolk Charles Bradon). When Katherine goes to comfort her former husband, Henry takes it as a gesture that Katherine still loves him and as a sign she wants him back.

Consummed by insanity the King of England starts to do anything and EVERYTHING to get Katherine back, putting Katherine's life and the ones she love's lives in grave danger.