Ameican WWII Soldier

MissKhrysGlowing Halo
Ameican WWII Soldier
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Posted on:
nov. 8, 2009 - 00 22

Did American WWII soldiers have special or unique gravestones? If so, what did they look like?
Also, did they have the custom of folding the flag 13 times back then?

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ExiledEagle

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Posted on:
nov. 8, 2009 - 01 37

I don't know about the flag folding bit.

However, there was a standard gravestone style used I am sure, depending on which cemetery they are interred. Arlington has the stereotypical style arched gravestone. In these ones, the cross above the information would be replaced with a Star of David on Jewish soldier's gravestones.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/justme_findingmyway/2747126923/

If you have ever watched Saving Private Ryan, the military cemetery shown uses white marble crosses and Star of Davids for those killed in the European theatre. If you look closely, you can see a few of the Jewish markers amongst the christian ones.
http://www.abmc.gov/images/lo3w.jpg

All I can suggest is research which cemetery your soldier is interred at and go from there.

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"Bearing ourselves humbly before God ... we await undismayed the impending assault ... be the ordeal sharp or long, or both, we shall seek no terms, we shall tolerate no parlay; we may show mercy – we shall ask for none." ~ Winston Churchill, July 1940

MissKhrysGlowing Halo
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Posted on:
nov. 8, 2009 - 04 38

Thank you so much!
The second link didn't work, but I do have a question about the first link.
Where the gravestone says "Pennsylvania" that's where he was born, right?
And what does "PFC CO C 264 INF 66 INF DIVISION" mean?

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kwinchester

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Posted on:
nov. 8, 2009 - 12 01

MissKhrys wrote:
Thank you so much!
The second link didn't work, but I do have a question about the first link.
Where the gravestone says "Pennsylvania" that's where he was born, right?
And what does "PFC CO C 264 INF 66 INF DIVISION" mean?

Private First Class (the soldier's rank), Company C, 264th Infantry Regiment, 66th Infantry Division, would be my best guess. :)

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Ms. Wright

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Posted on:
nov. 8, 2009 - 13 34

I've also seen gravestones with the same info that ExiledEagle gave you in the first link, only they were rectangles lying flat on the ground, the words pointing upward, and the "In Memory Of" omitted. If your story is set in the region you actually live, I suggest taking a nice walk through your local cemetary, to see how they did it.

MissKhrysGlowing Halo
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Posted on:
nov. 8, 2009 - 14 59

Well, no. I live in Canada.
The American soldier character was born in Boston, MA. Is that where he would be buried, or is it more likely that he would be buried with his fellow soldiers?

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MissKhrysGlowing Halo
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Posted on:
nov. 8, 2009 - 15 01

And thank you for your help. :o) I appreciate it.

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ExiledEagle

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Posted on:
nov. 8, 2009 - 16 41

kwinchester's guess is near spot on.

Also, Pennsylvania is more likely which state's infantry he served for. Usually the state is where the each Division is located.
So you get: Private First Class, Company C, 264th Pennsylvania Infantry Regiment, 66th Infantry Division
As time passed, the overall style of what is put on the gravestones changed. So, gravestones from earlier eras would have had a different format than more recent ones.

Anyways, where the soldier is buried is dependent on three things.
A) Was he dishonorably discharged? If yes, than he would be denied burial in a military cemetery. Dishonorable discharge usually means some real bad misconduct which would sully the honorable dead. If he was dishonorably discharged, than yes he would be buried in Boston, at a family or church plot.
B) Was he killed in combat overseas in a major offensive? If yes, than he would be likely buried in an overseas cemetery such as those in Normandy. The cemeteries in question would be only for one countries servicemen. So you would not have an American in a German war dead cemetery.
C) Did he die from natural causes after the war? Then he there are two things that could happen. the first is that he would be buried in a national military cemetery such as Arlington National Cemetery. Or, less likely, he would be interred at a U.S. cemetery overseas.

Hopefully THIS link will work: http://www.abmc.gov/cemeteries/cemeteries.php
You can check out some of the different European U.S. Military cemeteries

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"Bearing ourselves humbly before God ... we await undismayed the impending assault ... be the ordeal sharp or long, or both, we shall seek no terms, we shall tolerate no parlay; we may show mercy – we shall ask for none." ~ Winston Churchill, July 1940

MissKhrysGlowing Halo
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Posted on:
nov. 8, 2009 - 17 12

Yes, that link worked thank you.
And I'm planning for him to die in combat while liberating a concentration camp in either Germany or Poland.

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ExiledEagle

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Posted on:
nov. 8, 2009 - 17 32

Most likely yes. Very few events would warrant his remains being shipped back to the states, especially in the situation. Enough demand from the family, high ranking general, or something like that. However, usually such occurrences happened after the war was over.

Another bit of information is that when a soldier died, whether they died in combat or not, the next of kin would receive an American flag, folding in a triangle, in a special frame. My aunt and uncle have my grandfather's in a case in their front living room.

I don't know if is important to the character, but it is a good idea to look up the Sole Survivor policy. In cases where two or more brothers serve, and one dies, the others immediately recalled from combat and transferred to a non-combat post. Also, because of the incident that prompted the Sole Survivor policy, siblings would not be placed in the same army group. This is to help keep one of them alive. The reason for both these is that the Sullivan brothers, 5 brothers who served on the USS Juneau during November 1942, were all killed while defending the ship. One has to imagine the pain of getting the posthumous flags for the deaths of all their children to see why this an important detail.

EDIT: I have just noticed that on some gravemarkers, it is where the soldier hailed from. Not where he was born necessarily, but where he lived at the time of his recruitment.

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"Bearing ourselves humbly before God ... we await undismayed the impending assault ... be the ordeal sharp or long, or both, we shall seek no terms, we shall tolerate no parlay; we may show mercy – we shall ask for none." ~ Winston Churchill, July 1940

MissKhrysGlowing Halo
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Posted on:
nov. 8, 2009 - 18 26

Thanks again, that helps me out a lot.
He was a widower (and his child died with his wife) so that gives me an idea of who the flag would go to.
I have one last question for you, if you don't mind.
I know that there's some sort of significance with collecting the dog tags of your enemies in war (at least for American soldiers, unless I have been mislead by movie magic :\ )
Let's say my soldier knew he was going to die. Would it be plausible that he might give his dog tags to someone (say, one of the prisoners he was liberating) instead of letting his rival (in this case, the Nazis) have them?

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ExiledEagle

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nov. 8, 2009 - 19 35

Hmmm, I'm not sure. I think that might be the magic of the movies. Usually soldiers would collect other "souvenirs". So helmets, knives, guns, usually something more significant.

However, if it IS the case, work it out this way. If his group succeeds in liberating the camp, than his tags would be collected by his regiment to mark him as dead, since dog tags are used to verify the dead. If he is unsuccessful, than it's anyone's guess. If he is wounded mortally and not instantly dead, he could theoretically hand them off to someone. However, because of the way that concentration, extermination, and P.O.W. camps are laid out, they would have HAD to liberate the camp entirely to be able to get to the prisoners. Usually though, the camp guards and command would retreat and leave the camp prisoners behind. In a few situations, the retreating soldiers would kill the prisoners, which is a major war crime under the Geneva conventions. Fortunately, fighting back and killing the prisoners usually wasn't worth the effort. The number of guards at camps was relatively few, so there wouldn't be much resistance. Some attacking soldiers would most definitely die, but the camp would be quickly overwhelmed if enough soldiers attack. Most all camps were liberated right off the bat, usually in the order as the battle front passed them.

So we have a catch-22 of sorts. In order to pass the dogtags off to a prisoner, you had to liberate the camp anyways, and one of your teammates would be able to retrieve them, which was standard procedure for follow-up troops anyways. However, if he died while trying to get to the prisoners, he would not be able to pass them off to them anyways.

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"Bearing ourselves humbly before God ... we await undismayed the impending assault ... be the ordeal sharp or long, or both, we shall seek no terms, we shall tolerate no parlay; we may show mercy – we shall ask for none." ~ Winston Churchill, July 1940

MissKhrysGlowing Halo
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Posted on:
nov. 8, 2009 - 20 04

I should have mentioned that this was at the home of a Nazi officer, right on the edge of the concentration camp. Do the same rules apply?
There would probably be a lot of security in and around the officers home, right?

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ExiledEagle

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nov. 8, 2009 - 20 35

Definitely yes on the same rules applying. The guards and their immediate command would have usually lived right there on camp premises. Most P.O.W. camp and Concentration camps would have the guard and command housing/offices on one side of the camp. The cooler, which was solitary confinement, would be on another side. The prison itself is divided into two base bits. The perimeter and housing. The perimeter is two fences with towers between them or outside of the outer one, There is a no-cross wire inside the perimeter, which is basically an invisible fence. To cross the inner perimeter wire was a sure fire way to get shot. Inside the perimeter was the marching grounds and housing.

Here is a model of Stalag Luft III, a Luftwaffe P.O.W. Camp. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Model_Stalag_Luft_III.jpg

There is a difference when you apply all this to Extermination camps, which would have it's own setup for reasons of difference of goal.

Since the goal was to watch the prisoners, deferring guards to watch the command was the act of some of the more corrupt command. A good portion of camp officers were not. Also you need to realize that with the number of attempted escapes that always occurred, to ignore the prisoners would lead to some major problems for the Wehrmacht. You might have 2-4 guards on average for the command while he is on camp grounds. Also, it was made very clear to the guards that to not do their job would be considered insubordination and would get them sent to the Russian front, which was almost a death sentence.

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"Bearing ourselves humbly before God ... we await undismayed the impending assault ... be the ordeal sharp or long, or both, we shall seek no terms, we shall tolerate no parlay; we may show mercy – we shall ask for none." ~ Winston Churchill, July 1940

Grand PoobahGlowing Halo

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Posted on:
nov. 8, 2009 - 21 22

MissKhrys wrote:
Yes, that link worked thank you.
And I'm planning for him to die in combat while liberating a concentration camp in either Germany or Poland.

Stick with Germany. No camps in Poland were liberated by Americans.

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GP
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2006 NaNo winner - Berlin, Witnesses at the Crossroads of History, Book I
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2008 NaNo winner - Berlin, Witnesses at the Crossroads of History, Book III
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Grand PoobahGlowing Halo

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Posted on:
nov. 8, 2009 - 21 29

MissKhrys wrote:
Thanks again, that helps me out a lot.
He was a widower (and his child died with his wife) so that gives me an idea of who the flag would go to.
I have one last question for you, if you don't mind.
I know that there's some sort of significance with collecting the dog tags of your enemies in war (at least for American soldiers, unless I have been mislead by movie magic :\ )
Let's say my soldier knew he was going to die. Would it be plausible that he might give his dog tags to someone (say, one of the prisoners he was liberating) instead of letting his rival (in this case, the Nazis) have them?

During WWII it was a court-martial offense to collect the dog tags, or German Identity Disks as souvenirs. It was permissible to collect 1/2...German tags were round, and made to break in half, with the same info on each half...so the death could be reported. Bodies were ALWAYS buried with the remaining tag for future identification. Likewise, an American would never give up his tags. One was left with the body, the other collected for subsequent processing of the death notice, etc.

This was a very serious rule, and virtually never violated. In wars since that time, many enemy forces did not/do not wear any form of identity, but the rule remains in force to this day.

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GP
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2006 NaNo winner - Berlin, Witnesses at the Crossroads of History, Book I
2007 NaNo winner - Berlin, Witnesses at the Crossroads of History, Book II
2008 NaNo winner - Berlin, Witnesses at the Crossroads of History, Book III
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Grand PoobahGlowing Halo

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Posted on:
nov. 8, 2009 - 21 32

MissKhrys wrote:
I should have mentioned that this was at the home of a Nazi officer, right on the edge of the concentration camp. Do the same rules apply?
There would probably be a lot of security in and around the officers home, right?

At the point in time we are discussing, there would have been no security, and no security necessary. The officer would have fled before the camp was liberated. Officers and men captured at the camps were not popular people, and frequently they were placed in the camps themselves, kept much the same as the inmates had been. There are cases, on all fronts involving all allied armies, where the former guards were simply disarmed and then (unofficially) left to the mercies of the inmates. It wasn't pretty.

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GP
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2006 NaNo winner - Berlin, Witnesses at the Crossroads of History, Book I
2007 NaNo winner - Berlin, Witnesses at the Crossroads of History, Book II
2008 NaNo winner - Berlin, Witnesses at the Crossroads of History, Book III
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Grand PoobahGlowing Halo

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Posted on:
nov. 8, 2009 - 21 53

MissKhrys wrote:
Did American WWII soldiers have special or unique gravestones? If so, what did they look like?
Also, did they have the custom of folding the flag 13 times back then?

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The last question you asked:

Flag etiquette has not changed since the beginning, but there is nothing about folding it 13 times. A properly folded American flag goes like this.

The flag is folded in half lengthwise, and then in half again, also lengthwise. The result is a field of white stars on a blue field on one end (the lower striped portion is folded to the inside). Starting at the striped end, the flag is folded in a triangle until the entire flag has been consumed. If the flag is manufactured in the proper proportions, you should end up with a blue triangle with three stars showing on the face. NOTE: This has not always been the case, since the arrangement of stars has changed over the years as states were added. It is true right now...with 50 states.

The exact number of folds required to make the final triangle depends upon the proportions of the flag, and many are not made to the official proportions.

Secondary note: The military does not supply the triangular cases for holding the flags that draped caskets. That is left to the family. For soldiers killed in battle, the military does supply the flag itself.

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GP
--------------
2006 NaNo winner - Berlin, Witnesses at the Crossroads of History, Book I
2007 NaNo winner - Berlin, Witnesses at the Crossroads of History, Book II
2008 NaNo winner - Berlin, Witnesses at the Crossroads of History, Book III
2009 -

MissKhrysGlowing Halo
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Posted on:
nov. 8, 2009 - 22 09

The only reason I would want her to get his dog tags is because I want her to know his name (so she can visit his grave and meet his sister, who plays an important part in the novel). If it's unlikely that she would get his dog tags, what other way could she find out his name without making it sound obvious?
If he does somehow find the time to introduce himself to her, would it be weird for him to say his first and last name?

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Grand PoobahGlowing Halo

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Posted on:
nov. 8, 2009 - 22 21

MissKhrys wrote:
The only reason I would want her to get his dog tags is because I want her to know his name (so she can visit his grave and meet his sister, who plays an important part in the novel). If it's unlikely that she would get his dog tags, what other way could she find out his name without making it sound obvious?
If he does somehow find the time to introduce himself to her, would it be weird for him to say his first and last name?

I may have missed it, but I'm not sure who "she" is...beyond a character in the book.

Drop me an IM...tell me a bit about the plot, and I'll try to help you out with this.

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GP
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2006 NaNo winner - Berlin, Witnesses at the Crossroads of History, Book I
2007 NaNo winner - Berlin, Witnesses at the Crossroads of History, Book II
2008 NaNo winner - Berlin, Witnesses at the Crossroads of History, Book III
2009 -

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