How does one get past the prejudices of the reader in the modern world versus the truth of the historical world that fantasy is often built in?
I'm not saying one should write for say leftist Christians who will scoff at magic, or ultra-feminists, but how does one write past the average reader of fantasy who may not know much about history and doesn't know it yet, but they have cultural hang ups in their own culture?
For example:
Age of marriage in Agricultural world may be something like 10 years old (though they might not consummate until the girl is older). In Industrial, we'd call that pedophilia. How about age 16 with a 40 year old, which also happened. The original King Arthur story had Guinevere at 16 and he was somewhere in his 40's. She loved him, but cheated on him. If the woman doesn't do the whole rant and overturning of the system, won't people object?
Attitudes towards feminism. For example, in Northern India some women don't like the "women's right movement" and will block it. If one writes from their POV, that's called anti-feminist. If one writes about how the removing of the burke is really a restriction of women's movements, or a woman who stays in the palace supporting her husband, wouldn't people have a knee jerk reaction to that and drop the book? (I have a post feminist attitude towards women...)
Attitudes towards beauty. (I tried to get around this one too, but I'm not so convinced I did it well). Today's standard is the skinny woman, often on fantasy covers as scantily clad with big breasts, going around defeating men. The reality is that in the majority of the cultures, being chubby was a good thing and the compulsion was to make women fatter because the babies would be healthier with more fat.
Polygyny was a fact for many countries. How does one get past this without people going into feminist rants about how it degrades women. (From studying it, I think it degrades men more...)
I wonder if fantasy can really get past some of our cultural hangups. Because I'd really like to write worlds where women's strength isn't going out questing, but staying in the cloistered palace. I'd like to write about the man who can't get any in a polygynous society. And I'd like to write new standards of beauty, but I'm not sure if you can convert people to let go of their cultural hang ups. Like don't eat live food because it's so wrong and it needs to be packaged. Or writing about Cannibals where they aren't evil. Because that's so wrong... and people like that must be evil. Can people really write past prejudices? Has anyone been able to find good ways with their own writing to do this? Has anyone had their mind changed by reading a fantasy book on other cultural practices that don't conform to today's (English-speaking) standards?
BTW, random, but all of our ancestors were cannibals probably at one time or another.
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Novelists are a conscienceless lot.--Diana Gabaldon (An Echo in the Bone)
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nov. 8, 2009 - 11 13
*rightist Ultra Christians. --;;
Oh and if anyone needs more extreme examples, I can list some that I learned and want to play with...
----------Novelists are a conscienceless lot.--Diana Gabaldon (An Echo in the Bone)
1,339 / 50,000
nov. 8, 2009 - 12 47
People are writing fantasy, not real history. If they do think about particulars of the real world, it goes on their worldbuilding checklist :
Do I want to include Dragons? yes, no
Do I want to include Wizards? yes, no
Do I want to include girls getting married at the age of 10? yes, no
EDIT: and I think this is why I find so much fantasy to be so much "less filling" fluff than science fiction. when those tough cultural questions come up in Sci Fi worldbuilding, authors will freqently say "yes" - and deal with the implications both in their work and in any real world reaction. Fantasy authors in my experience tend either to not ask the question or decide not to include a difficult answer - meaning they dont have to address the implications.
----------"To practice any art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow. So do it." - Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
2009-Brother Monkey, Brother Lion, Sister Crow2009 -Bunnystar Galactica Psychic Bunnies IN SPACE
37,216 / 50,000
nov. 8, 2009 - 11 57
I've never really dealt with these issues, but I've tried to hint at them in all my stories. I considered under what conditions feminism might have rose in my worlds and I've considered at what stage it might be. Granted, that often meant including things that indicated widespread misogyny, but my female characters were often the type to make do even in an inflexible environment (and they never really rebelled against The Man, either; they seemed all too ready to accept that women couldn't do certain jobs that men could or that their personal success was measured by how well they married. I simply never focused on these things).
Also, for some reason, a ready acceptence of death seemed to be the other theme in my stories. I imagine in the days before antibiotics and disinfectants, people were a bit more unflinching when confronted with morbid things and I seem to have transferred this impression into my stories.
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nov. 8, 2009 - 12 13
Honestly, the only way to get past people's cultural prejudices is to show them that other ways work, and that other people take those ways just as much for granted as everybody else does their own. There will always be a few who just can't deal with that. There will always be a few that honestly believe every work of fiction should advance their own personal agenda, and will complain if it doesn't. Some will even act like anything that doesn't agree with their personal agenda is a deliberate personal attack by the author. Some get a real kick out of creating drama for the sake of drama, too:)
Some people can never believe everybody else shouldn't/doesn't think exactly like they do, so they'll pitch a fit about how veryvery wrong it is, no matter what you write. The only way to circumvent such self-centered, arrogant, intolerant and obnoxious behavior is never to say anything at all- but you can't do that, right?.
OTOH, Some people have learned to understand that other people *can* have different preferences without being *wrong*, so they can actually wrap their heads around a different POV and appreciate it- particularly if it's presented as coherent and very natural in context .
Gender issues are particularly inflammatory because so many of us are still dealing with discrimination issues, but ..If a person can enjoy reading about stalking victims from a psycho's POV, or dating from a teenage boy's POV, or feeding from a vampire's POV, war from a career soldier's POV- and people do!- they can enjoy reading about polygyny from an insider's POV too. The problem,of course, is getting into that POV well enough to write it if you're not an insider- but it can be done.
And people that can't handle it will throw their irrational* tantrums for anyone who'll listen. At least your novel will get free advertising-
:P
*my evil stepmother is one of those who raves about how Harry Potter and LOTR are satanic attacks on American youth, while Narnia is good christian literature. *shrugs* It's what she's been told to think, so she does, because she's too lazy to develop thoughts of her own. meanwhile, the authors are laughing all the way to the bank:D
51,877 / 50,000
nov. 8, 2009 - 12 11
I totally see what you're saying, and I'm maybe giving it a shot. Maybe. I have to admit, though, that I really want people to actually read what I'm writing, so if I do go ahead with the Island of No Women's Rights Whatsoever, I feel like I'm going to have to play soft-ball while I'm there.
I think the price you pay for being edgy is that you're going to piss people off. If some feminists scream about my book, fine! Let them scream! Long as they don't TP my house with tampons, I'm okay.
In general though, you have to remember that the reader isn't from the culture you're talking about, so they'll get distracted by things that aren't supposed to be a big deal, if you're not careful. Often I think it's easier just to write for today's audience and let the imaginary/dead culture be damned. I guess being careful which issues you raise is the key... what you leave out of writing is just as important as what you put in (not counting NaNo season, of course).
----------"This is going to be the worst day of your life. I'm bringing nunchuks." H. Freeman
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I'm fully aware that what I'm writing is VERY against today's attitudes.
And you know what? I don't care. I'm gonna write it anyway!
Who can say what will sell, right? I mean, Salman Rushdie wrote the Satanic Verses, and it turned out to be one of the best-selling books of all time because everyone made a big deal about how offensive it was.
: ]
----------25,101 / 50,000
nov. 8, 2009 - 12 56
It's inevitable that some readers will confuse the views and beliefs of characters with the views and beliefs of the person writing those characters. But then there are people who will understand your world, and understand that the characters in that world are shaped by the conditions they live in--by real life, not by ideas. A female character might feel trapped by her role in society, but might chalk it up to her own shortcomings or sinfulness. If this is a Medieval society, it would be absurd for her to sound like Shulamith Firestone or even Mary Wollstonecraft, and then singlehandedly bring down the patriarchy through the power of her ideas(!). Hell, this character might even be content with her position in society and feel a sense of pride in her duty as a mother/wife. If people want to think that this character's beliefs are my beliefs, then so be it. Those people are just not good readers and I'm not going to waste my time trying to show them what I really believe. That's not what a novel is for.
You just have to be brave and not worry about the people who think that it's you who believes in marrying ten year olds, not the people in the story. Getting people to examine their assumptions about humanity, society, and culture is great, but I think in order to do this well you have to be brave enough to step back a little and allow people to get you totally wrong, you know?
But I don't think most readers are going to be that dense. One thing you hear fantasy readers complain a lot about is that Castleland is just 21st Century America with wizards, dragons, and no cell phones. I think readers would like to see an honest portrayal of characters who actually act and think like products of their own worlds, and not of ours. If anything, a reader might get angry at the characters and ask, "why don't you just refuse to marry the guy?" (for instance). They might come to realize that that's just not an option; it's something a character in this world will accept. That might lead the reader to question his/her own assumptions about their own culture. That's the best you can hope for, I think.
----------Unprovided with original learning, unformed in the habits of thinking, unskilled in the arts of composition, I resolved to write a book.
--Edward Gibbon
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nov. 8, 2009 - 13 35
This is a really great topic. I have trouble with this all the time in my writing. Not so much worrying about what others will think, but worrying about what *I* think. It's incrediby tough to get over my own prejudices in my writing.
I don't really see the goal of fantasy being to get people over their cultural hang-ups, though I do think it is important to address some societal issues.
This reminds me of an anime called Koi Kaze, and how interesting it was to see how the characters felt. It's not fantasy, but I still think it applies. The story itself was supposed to deal with incest. But I found myself more distracted by the fact that the FMC was 15, and the MMC was 27. Many of the younger characters were 15 or 16 and in highschool, but several were dating college kids more in their twenties, which in America where I live is not generally ecouraged, though not exactly frowned upon either, as long as you aren't having sex. It's not that the age differences are necessarily a big deal to me personally, but the influence of my culture kept bringing my attention back to them.
In my own writing, I've tended to look more to historical reality, and to not gloss over the many cultural differences between the societies I'm portraying and the one in which I live. I can go both ways in reading, but I prefer something different from my culture, because it means that the conflicts are less likely to have obvious answers, which means they actually are conflicts, and not excuses for conflict.
----------All lines are arbitrary; otherwise, we wouldn't have to draw them. ~Nicholas Vesiri
http://atsiko.wordpress.com
31,258 / 50,000
nov. 8, 2009 - 14 05
As far as sympathetic portrayals of cannibals go, I think Herman Melville created a masterful character in Queequeg in Moby Dick. So it is possible to reconcile the two, although you may have to be a freaking genius.
-Incidentally I fell in love with Queequeg, a cannibal whale harpooner, and I'm a leftist vegan feminist. Good writing can do anything.
----------The Unicorn Skin Book
http://tinyterrarium.blogspot.com/
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nov. 8, 2009 - 14 56
If you can justify something in your fantasy culture, go ahead. Then again, I've seen some authors attempt to justify something which either left me feeling confused or wishing to point out a flaw in the logic.
In historical times, for example, there were usually economic reasons for marrying children -- political alliances, for example, or a law that stated a married man could claim more land than a single man.
Consider your culture. What is the economic structure? At what age does one become an adult? What are the beliefs of the dominant religion? Then see what you can come up with to make an engaging story with fascinating characters.
----------"What you create doesn’t have to be perfect. So what if the eggs are greasy or the toast is burned? Don’t let fear of failure discourage you." - Dieter F. Uchtdorf
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nov. 8, 2009 - 15 17
-Incidentally I fell in love with Queequeg, a cannibal whale harpooner, and I'm a leftist vegan feminist. Good writing can do anything.
Some cultures with Totemism have ritual cannibalism, where they basically char the body down and then take a little of the ashes in a drink. But most portrayals I've seen of Cannibalism are either like the movie Alive "Eat my Butt", or where the person is outright insane/evil. Most cultural Anthropologists, however, accept a more sympathetic portrayal of cannibalism... and I'd like to pull this off some day.
I also want to pull off the live food thing too. Whole food, dead on a plate is easy.
I'm working on the feminism in a world that's agricultural too, because I think that's interesting. But as I said I'm a Post Feminist, not a Feminist...
I often think, "That' so awesome--the whole [anthropology] class is flinching! I want to write that from a more sympathetic view." then sit down and realize that people might get past eating say your grandmother in a ritual to honor her... Or Man has Baby, cool! <-- true story. (All the men I knew flinched and said that is so wrong and then was trying to hash out the technicalities.) I wonder if my writing ability will go up with practice writing those things. And also get past my own flinching. (I'm trying to push my limits). I have issues on if I can do it well enough. How do you get an insider's POV and then write them well enough for a reader to accept it?
----------Novelists are a conscienceless lot.--Diana Gabaldon (An Echo in the Bone)