Nazi double agents: why?

Randomdej
Nazi double agents: why?

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Nov 3, 2009 - 18 02

Why would a Nazi SS officer defect from Germany to sell military secrets to the US, and/or Russia, and/or Polish underground networks, etc., i.e. anyone he can sell stuff to?

I'm toying with the idea of a half-Jewish wife and a traditional, non-radical background that disinclines him to Nazism, but I haven't figured out anything good yet.
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ExiledEagle

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Nov 3, 2009 - 20 36

The Nazi's were a political party. Just like political parties today, members did not always agree to ALL the core precepts of the party. Just because the party is anti-semite, doesn't mean all the members in the party are. It's analogous to Political parties past and present. Just because I am more inclined to US Democratic ideals, does not mean I fully agree with them.

So, find some core tenant in Nazi ideologies that your character would not agree with, and use it to drive a wedge between him and Nazi party. For example, a Nazi character hates Jewish folks, but doesn't want them dead. Therefore, Hitler's Eugenics program would be the wedge. Likewise, a Nazi character likes capitalism, a lot. However, since Nazi politics are sort of anti-capitalist, that could be a wedge.

An example in my novel is my RAF pilot. He is driven to betray his own country for Nazi policies. He doesn't like Hitler's final solution, but he dislikes his own countries Government even more. His hate of Winston Churchill and the Bureaucracy is the wedge that separates him from his comrades, which he doesn't hate.

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"Bearing ourselves humbly before God ... we await undismayed the impending assault ... be the ordeal sharp or long, or both, we shall seek no terms, we shall tolerate no parlay; we may show mercy – we shall ask for none." ~ Winston Churchill, July 1940

danaharding

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Nov 4, 2009 - 04 29

The other side has something they're using to manipulate him, like a lover or a sibling or child. Be creative. Good luck!

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jdmoore

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Nov 4, 2009 - 07 23

There may be some aspect of the character's background that prevents them from joining whole-heartedly with the violence of Nazi ideology. I'd recommend looking at the story of Kurt Gerstein, an SS agent whose devout Catholicism led to him (trying) to become an informant about the Holocaust, and who worked to mitigate as much as he could of the Holocaust without actually sacrificing himself.

Rosina RowantreeGlowing Halo

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Nov 4, 2009 - 08 10

He could have family - not necessarily Jewish - living in the US. Quite possibly he lived with them for some time. He was quite happy when they were neutral, but once the US joins the war against Germany, and he learns that rather than returning to Germany to fight, his cousins are committing themselves to fight for the US, he rethinks his attitudes.

He also realises that Germany is going to lose the war, so he wants to atone for his SS ness.

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2005: The Cheese Gate Guard
2006: The Heron's Bridge
2007: Fair Warning
2009: Valley of Thorns

ahabs.leg

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Nov 4, 2009 - 11 34

In fact, all Nazi spies captured by the British were turned into double agents. Opportunists all?

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"Gentlemen: You have undertaken to cheat me. I won't sue you, for the law is too slow. I'll ruin you. Yours truly, Cornelius Vanderbilt."

Rosina RowantreeGlowing Halo

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Nov 4, 2009 - 14 07

ahabs.leg wrote:
In fact, all Nazi spies captured by the British were turned into double agents. Opportunists all?

As I understand it, the alternative was death. On the other hand, some did turn double agent with a willingness to be inventive in the service of the British. But most just sent the radio messages produced by their British handlers ... using their codes and signatures and distinctive touch, but not actually selling information ....

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2005: The Cheese Gate Guard
2006: The Heron's Bridge
2007: Fair Warning
2009: Valley of Thorns

Rosina RowantreeGlowing Halo

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Nov 4, 2009 - 14 18

Randomdej wrote:
Why would a Nazi SS officer defect from Germany to sell military secrets to the US, and/or Russia, and/or Polish underground networks, etc., i.e. anyone he can sell stuff to?

I'm toying with the idea of a half-Jewish wife and a traditional, non-radical background that disinclines him to Nazism, but I haven't figured out anything good yet.
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I thought of this while watching a news item tonight about a former Sergeant in the Waffen SS who had returned to the village and the prisoner of war camp where he had been detained after D Day.

To join the Waffen SS you had to have a clear German blood line back to the 1800s when birth registration became compulsory, so they could check for Jewish or non-Aryan ancestry. If he had a half-Jewish wife I am very sure it would have been discovered. It would certainly have disqualified him from the SS, and he might have found himself locked up or worse - whether she had fled abroad or not.

Of course, he could not have married her legally after 1935, when the Nuremberg laws were passed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_policy_of_Nazi_Germany#The_Nuremberg...

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2005: The Cheese Gate Guard
2006: The Heron's Bridge
2007: Fair Warning
2009: Valley of Thorns

Grand PoobahGlowing Halo

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Nov 4, 2009 - 17 21

ahabs.leg wrote:
In fact, all Nazi spies captured by the British were turned into double agents. Opportunists all?

It makes for a great story, but unfortunately it's just urban myth.

As late as the 1990's the British were still claiming, and with good reason, that they had successfully intercepted EVERY German spy who attempted to enter the UK. That claim is not without some good supporting documentation, and as of that time, no one could find a single exception.

However, only a select few were turned. The British were savy enough to know that if every spy started performing perfectly, things would look fishy. The Germans weren't that dumb. They would expect a few to fall, and so there had to be some examples so the situation would look realistic. There are various numbers out there, but the best that I have seen is about 20% of those captured were turned, while the rest were tried, and in many cases, executed. Some, for a variety of reasons, were simply put in jail, even though spying was a capital crime.

In a couple cases, the British were able to get enough information from a spy that they jailed them, and then had one of their own operate the link, providing all sorts of information.

The best source for this information is a book called Intrepid, which details the operation of the British secret service and the XX committee. There are, however, a whole bunch of other sources, some equally good. If you read the book Seizing the Enigma, you can find out more about a real spy within Germany itself, who simply showed up one day offering to provide some war-changing information.

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GP
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2006 NaNo winner - Berlin, Witnesses at the Crossroads of History, Book I
2007 NaNo winner - Berlin, Witnesses at the Crossroads of History, Book II
2008 NaNo winner - Berlin, Witnesses at the Crossroads of History, Book III
2009 -

Grand PoobahGlowing Halo

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Nov 4, 2009 - 17 32

Randomdej wrote:
Why would a Nazi SS officer defect from Germany to sell military secrets to the US, and/or Russia, and/or Polish underground networks, etc., i.e. anyone he can sell stuff to?

I'm toying with the idea of a half-Jewish wife and a traditional, non-radical background that disinclines him to Nazism, but I haven't figured out anything good yet.
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First, and someone else mentioned this also, no one with a half-Jewish wife could possible be in the SS, So, that one's easy.

Now, as to motivation. The classic spy motivation is summed up by the acronym MICE....Money, Ideology,Compromise, and Ego. For more on that enter "spy motivation MICE" into Google, and pick the wiki article.

For this situation, I'm guessing that Ideology is going to be your best bet. There were many officers and others who found the application of the Final Solution, indeed the whole mistreatment of natives on the Eastern Front as repulsive. Wehrmacht officers routinely refused to carry out reprisal actions against civilians, and it was often left to the SS and their other groups to do that sort of thing. The Wehrmacht claimed their job was to win the war.

So, the idea that someone could witness some of the mass shootings of Jews or the other sorts of things and then turn because they found it so abhorrent is not a stretch. Whom he would choose to contact would depend upon where he was. The Polish underground was not terribly effective early in the war, and consisted largely of fragmented groups of "partisans" doing their own thing in their immediate neighborhood. That is not to say they didn't have an impact, because they did, but anything beyond local intelligence probably wouldn't be terribly useful, and they didn't have any money to pay for such information.

Russia would have been seeking spies, but it would be pretty tough to hook up with them. Not impossible, just really tough. The issue that's going to be your toughest will be "where is this guy working?" If you put him in Berlin, after having been somewhere else to see stuff, might work. If you transfer him to the Italian front, all kinds of things become available, but otherwise, it's going to be hard to create a plausible scenario. Good luck.

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GP
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2006 NaNo winner - Berlin, Witnesses at the Crossroads of History, Book I
2007 NaNo winner - Berlin, Witnesses at the Crossroads of History, Book II
2008 NaNo winner - Berlin, Witnesses at the Crossroads of History, Book III
2009 -

Rosina RowantreeGlowing Halo

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Nov 4, 2009 - 18 00

Grand Poobah wrote:
ahabs.leg wrote:
In fact, all Nazi spies captured by the British were turned into double agents. Opportunists all?

It makes for a great story, but unfortunately it's just urban myth.

As late as the 1990's the British were still claiming, and with good reason, that they had successfully intercepted EVERY German spy who attempted to enter the UK. That claim is not without some good supporting documentation, and as of that time, no one could find a single exception.

However, only a select few were turned. The British were savy enough to know that if every spy started performing perfectly, things would look fishy. The Germans weren't that dumb. They would expect a few to fall, and so there had to be some examples so the situation would look realistic. There are various numbers out there, but the best that I have seen is about 20% of those captured were turned, while the rest were tried, and in many cases, executed. Some, for a variety of reasons, were simply put in jail, even though spying was a capital crime.

In a couple cases, the British were able to get enough information from a spy that they jailed them, and then had one of their own operate the link, providing all sorts of information.

The best source for this information is a book called Intrepid, which details the operation of the British secret service and the XX committee. There are, however, a whole bunch of other sources, some equally good. If you read the book Seizing the Enigma, you can find out more about a real spy within Germany itself, who simply showed up one day offering to provide some war-changing information.

Thinking about what you said, and remembering listening to Spycatcher on the radio in the 50s or 60s, I think we have the myth slightly off. Not "all German agents who came to Britain were turned", but "the only German agents operating in Britain were turned spies, working for British intelligence." Which ties in with what the truth seems to be.

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2005: The Cheese Gate Guard
2006: The Heron's Bridge
2007: Fair Warning
2009: Valley of Thorns

Grand PoobahGlowing Halo

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Nov 4, 2009 - 21 23

Rosina Rowantree wrote:

Thinking about what you said, and remembering listening to Spycatcher on the radio in the 50s or 60s, I think we have the myth slightly off. Not "all German agents who came to Britain were turned", but "the only German agents operating in Britain were turned spies, working for British intelligence." Which ties in with what the truth seems to be.

That would be an accurate assessment also.

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GP
--------------
2006 NaNo winner - Berlin, Witnesses at the Crossroads of History, Book I
2007 NaNo winner - Berlin, Witnesses at the Crossroads of History, Book II
2008 NaNo winner - Berlin, Witnesses at the Crossroads of History, Book III
2009 -

Randomdej

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Nov 5, 2009 - 05 56

Wow, thank you all so much for the replies! Grand Poobah, the book recommendations were really helpful. I'm going to go look them up today.

To tell the truth, I don't know much about the SS at all. My dad watches war movies, but that's it. XD So I hadn't a clue about Jewish wives or anything.

As for the various nations he'd trade with - my story is actually set in an alternate history where the Third Reich took over most of Europe and Asia, pushed the US back, and occupied Russia (though very poorly; more like just Moscow). I've got a bunch of speculative history books coming in via ILL, but... they're still coming in. For right now, though, my MC is probably going to be selling to Russia and the US. Cold War style.

theInsane

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Nov 5, 2009 - 18 40

Randomdej wrote:
Why would a Nazi SS officer defect from Germany to sell military secrets to the US, and/or Russia, and/or Polish underground networks, etc., i.e. anyone he can sell stuff to?

I'm toying with the idea of a half-Jewish wife and a traditional, non-radical background that disinclines him to Nazism, but I haven't figured out anything good yet.
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i just have to see that your story is sounding more and more interesting. :-)
money is probably the most obvious motivation for selling information to multiple parties.
other than that maybe your character is just sick of the war and is trying to end it? or he's reached some psychological limit, snapped and decided to lash out against the Third Reich government/Nazis in any way he can.
(that would be fun to write, i think. lots of material there to drive the 'snap'.... of course, i just love writing tortured, disillusioned, borderline crazy characters with dark, twisted pasts!)

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blithely defying "write what you know" since... oh, well... ever.

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